>looking for a shotgun for hunting mostly birds (grouse and

>>33966554
A 20 gauge is fine. I'd seriously consider an H&R single-shot. They're out of production, but easy to find and not very expensive at all.

>>33966554
20 gauge is cheap and will do the job just as good (i.e. kill the thing you're pointing it at assuming proper load and shot).

>>33966554
you should use a 22 or even an air rifle for squirrels. a 12 gauge will be better for range. i don't know of too many 20 gauge double barrels. you might consider a 16 gauge if you want the kick of a 12 with better range than a 20. shells are a little more expensive though.

>>33966610
I usually just take squirrels while grouse hunting which is why I take them with a shotgun. I don't take close shots though and I've gotten fairly lucky about not absolutely peppering them so the damage is minimal. My grandpa does have an old single shot 16 gauge though that's pretty neat. Wish I could find one of those.

>>33966554
Stoeger makes some good OU 20 gauges. Least they used to don't know if they've caught the same shit that Ruger has.

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http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/fedarm-single-barrel-ss12-detail.html?Itemid=0
>$175 plus shipping/FFL transfer for a new 12 gauge

>>33966641
>Turkish
That is a nice price though.

>>33966635
where do you live? i have one, but my guess is that you don't live in the states.

>>33966660
I do. Minnesota.

>>33966554
No real reason not to get a 12 gauge. In my experience 20 gauge is usually used for kids because of the lower recoil. 12 gauge will get you more shot on target and more velocity which equals a longer killing range.

Shells cost the same for 12 or 20. The only downside is recoil.

>>33966656
Roaches or not, Turks make a lot of cheap shotguns since that's pretty much all they're allowed to buy domestically.

Please do ignore all the people with a typical case of /k/ magnumitis here. Again, 20 gauge is fine.

>>33966662
well shit, you could always save up for a browning. they redesigned the a5 and brought back the sweet 16. hella expensive, but they will last long enough for your childrens' children to use.

>>33966693
It doesn't have anything to do with "magnumitis"
It's not like a 12 gauge is 3x as powerful as a 20.
12 gauge just offers more range and more kill probability. 20 gauge will technically kill just fine, but so will a 410. Why not hunt ducks with a 410? Why not a 22lr?

I haven't done a lot of bird hunting but I have shot a ton of trap. I can absolutely tell a difference in how far I can get hits between a 12 and 16 gauge. There's also a reason why people shoot a 28 gauge for a handicap. 12 gauge is the standard and there is no worthwhile benefit to buying a 20 gauge over a 12 for an adult.

>>33966707
I could, but I'm in poorfag mode mostly looking for a beater pawn shop gun I can lug around innawoods and not be too concerned about until I can get something nice.

Nothing wrong with a 20ga. Fist shotgun I ever fired was a Mossberg 500 in 12ga with slugs and it kicked my ass. After that I had a flinching problem. Years later a friend took my trap shooting for the first time and let me use his 20ga Remington 870 and it was quite enjoyable. Shooting that helped remedy my flinch.

I will say that 12ga does give you a lot more range though, at least I find it noticeable when shooting trap, but the 20 is more comfortable.

>>33966881
Yeah but for what I hunt (grouse, squirrels, and rabbits) I'm rarely taking long shots at all. Where I hunt if I let a bird get out of close range I'm probably not going to find it if I shoot it because some of the brush is so thick.

>>33966852
You're gonna see 5x as many 12 gauge shotguns in pawnshops as 20s. If you were posting this thread asking "all ive got is a 20 gauge, can I kill ducks and pheasant?" I'd tell you hell yes.

Seeing as you're looking for a gun there is so reason to go 20.

>>33966822
>It doesn't have anything to do with "magnumitis"
>It's not like a 12 gauge is 3x as powerful as a 20.
So? OP isn't Kyle Reese trying to blast a T800 through the front window of Tech Noir before it kills Sarah Connor. He's hunting pheasants and squirrels. They're not going to be 1/3 as dead because he shot them with a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge. Inability to see things like this and to insist on caliber overkill is precisely what magnumitis is all about.

>>33967024
Nice reference, but do you disagree that a 12 gauge will give him more range and more load flexibility over a 20 gauge? Why should he purposely choose a sub-standard cartridge for the same price?

Remember he doesn't own any shotgun right now and is looking to buy one cheaply in a pawn shop. Have you ever cruised pawn shops looking for something? If he were in here saying he owned a 20 g and were looking to hunt squirrels, grouse, and pheasant I'd tell him to load up and go for it. He's not though.

A 12 can do anything a 20 can do but it doesn't work the other way.

I agree with you about "magnumitis", I've taken probably a dozen whitetail deer with a Winchester M70 in 243. This isn't the same case though, shotguns don't operate like rifles. All you get from one to the next is a little bit more usable range. A 20 will kill farther than a 28, a 16 will kill farther than a 20, a 12 will kill farther than a 16, a 10 will.....

>>33967097
>Nice reference, but do you disagree that a 12 gauge will give him more range and more load flexibility over a 20 gauge? Why should he purposely choose a sub-standard cartridge for the same price?
No, but does he really need that? I'm presuming he has the cash to buy more than one firearm. A 20 gauge topper for pheasant hunting will set him back, what, $150? So buy that gun for that purpose, and have his 12 gauge or AR or SKS or whatever back in the safe for the whatever they're good at shooting.

>>33967142
I think you miss my point.
Please list the advantages to a 20 gauge over a 12 for a person buying a new shotung.

>>33967097
>will kill farther than
Which isn't a concern for me. I hunt grouse on state land with thick brush. Ontop of that grouse (at least in my experience) wait until you're right on top of them to take off so most of my shots are very close range to begin with. Because of some of the brush I won't even take a shot if they get too far away because I know the odds of me sucessfully recovering the bird are very slim.

>>33967158
>Please list the advantages to a 20 gauge over a 12 for a person buying a new shotung.
OP seems to want one, and I presume he has his own reasons why.

>>33967160
Buy whatever you want but with shotguns is all about flexibility. 12 is more flexible than 20. 20 is more flexible than 28 and so forth. Each stop up will give you more shot and more powder which equal more range.

>>33967176
OP already wanting a 20 gauge isn't a benefit, it's a preference. Still waiting on the advantage to a 20g over a 12 though....
>Less recoil
>Lighter guns
With those justifications it sounds like kiddie shotguns to me really. If you come here asking "X vs Y" when you are already set on X you need to fuck off

>>33967207
>OP already wanting a 20 gauge isn't a benefit, it's a preference. Still waiting on the advantage to a 20g over a 12 though....
>>Less recoil
>>Lighter guns
Well, you answered your own question. I own a 12 gauge shotgun, and while I don't regret the purchase, I wouldn't say that it's particularly pleasant to shoot. What's wrong with wanting something that is?

>>33967217
grow some balls or gain 20 lbs
if a 12g with birdy shots is unpleasant, dear god don't shoot and magnum buckshot or slugs because you'll probably be instantly paralyzed.

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>>33967207
So you're saying the only benefit of a 12 gauge is distance? The pros of a 20 seem to be outweighing the cons given my situation.

>>33967278
Also, +1 for Kino.

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>>33967265
I keep hearing about how shotguns are SOOOO unpleasant to shoot, and how they suck as a first gun.

I'm muscular and overweight (5'10", 200LB), and I plan to shoot mostly target loads. Am I fine?

>>33967660
Nah. The real unpleasant shit comes from shooting 00 buck, slugs, and HD loads out of shitty bargain bin shotguns like the Maverick and IAC shotguns. Target loads are nothing.

Why not just buy a 12 gauge and use lighter loaded ammunition if you want less recoil? That way you keep the perceived advantages of a 20 gauge, but have the versatility of full power loads if you wanted them. If 20 gauge shotguns or ammunition were either easier to find or cheaper than 12 gauge then I'd say go for a 20, but realistically there isn't any advantage I can see to it.

I guess the question is: why should you buy a 20 gauge?

I am a bird hunter, OP. I started when I was 13 with my dad with a 20 gauge, then by the time I was 20 I was hunting with a 12ga, and by 23 I had come back to the 20ga.

Cheaper to shoot, I don't take shots over 40 yards at birds anyways, the meat is less damaged and I got a couple years ago a cheap german double barreled shotty in 20ga that is great to shoot. I prefer it to the 12s. My old man still goes for 12ga, he's a better shot than me, so he uses the distance well, and he's got an amazing custom 12ga that's deadly precise.

I don't see any loss in number of kills, if anything I started reducing the distance and getting them with less shots with bird in flight. Do whatever you feel comfortable, OP. If you feel more comfortable within 40yd, I'd say 20ga is enough.

>>33968337
Yeah most if not all of my shots are sub 40 yards. I'd say the average is 20 for grouse and easily 10 for squirrels. Which is partially why I don't want a 12 gauge. Most of the time it turns out okay but one time I accidentally a squirrel pretty hard because I was a little too close and the shot was a little too clear.

>>33967660
Target loads are nothing, and you can get a butt-pad for your stock, which helps a bit. The key thing to remember is it doesn't actually hurt, but it can look nasty later, after a day of shooting buck and slugs you can actually get mild bruising that you may or may not feel

>>33967660
if you hold it right you will be fine. if you hold it wrong then you get to be one of those people bitching about recoil 2 strong.

>>33966822
There is a massive disparity between .410 and EVERYTHING else and you know it. I'll agree that 12 is standard for a reason and that it's the most viable for a reason, but getting a lighter gun that generally has less recoil without going to a low recoil 12 isn't "no reason". My current shotgun is a Mossberg 835 that's so well used that it gives the SXP a run and my first shotgun was an 870 supermag. Doesn't make the real 20s any less sweet. Likewise lite loaded 12 is a godsend from a universal standpoint.

That reminds me, I've gotta order an OpSol adapter and some minishells. Gonna see if Aquila or Nobel works better

>>33967207
>With those justifications it sounds like kiddie shotguns to me really
Well NEMO has a .300WM AR to sell you since you probably don't believe in intermediatea either

>>33967265
Or just buy a gun that nearly as effective, chambered in a round with less recoil at a close enough price point that it makes no difference. Even better, buy an auto.

This one of those situations where there isn't just one right way to do something

anything a 20 can do a 12 can do but not the other way around. you can always get light loads for a 12 to put it on par with a 20. ammo cost is the same and the shotgun cost is the same.

I have been looking at buying an old 20 guage from a pawnshop for dove hunting. It is one lf those old pumps with the 30 inch barrel. Thoughts?

Just get the 20 gauge OP, you can always buy something else later on.

>>33966554
20 gauge is fine for all the things you mentioned and the shells are not much more that 12 gauge. Stay away from 16 gauge as they are quite expensive compared to 12 and 20.