The .40S&W is not a middle ground between 9mm and .45 ACP,

So what you're saying is that .40S&W is just an improved version of the 9mm because it's only 0.0516" greater in diameter, has superior energy, and equal capacity to typical 9mm loads

>>33948272
no one's gonna comment on this?

>>33948272
>>33949786
upvote
(no really i laughed)

.40 buyers remorse thread

>>33949804
Just finished off all my .40 ammo and sold my USP. I'm on the hunt for a 9 now.

>>33949828
Couldn't you have just bought a 9mm USP barrel?

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>>33949804

>>33949842

I am amazed he was able to sell the USP what with the police buybacks for sale right now.

>>33949842
Could have, but wanted a full compact instead of a fullsize

>>33949848
while .357 SIG buries them all.

>>33949919
>".357 sig is the best" meme

why though? It's just a slightly faster 9mm with less capacity. Basically a watered down .357 mag, yet people assume it has some mythical stopping ability

>>33948237
And the FBI is dropping it in favor of 9mm. Because if you cant have 10mm because of lady wrists, you might as well have something good.

>>33949940
9mm = .40S&W > .45ACP

prove me wrong

>>33949970
9mm is better due to more capacity

>>33949970
The FBI made .40 as an entirely new cartridge as a stopgap measure when female agents couldn't qualify with 10mm. after however many years of shilling their shit creation they are now dropping it for 9mm. That should be reason enough.

>>33949937
mythical *penetration* abilities

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>>33949804

>>33949983
Then why not use a .380 or a .22? Capacity for days.

.40 is a fad round.
Pick from the following
>9mm
>.45
>.357
>10mm
To this day no handgun round surpases .38/.357
Its cheap, extreemly versatile, (plinking to backwoods bear gun), manageably recoil, kicks even more ass in carbines, and is an excellet self defence round.
It has ONE drawback, very few autoloaders are chambered for it.

>>33950027
Its also rimmed, which is why there arent any autoloaders in it. so make that 2 drawbacks. Also capacity. so 3 drawbacks. should I go on?

>>33950008
nah, the 125gr .357 JHP is known as the gold standard for one shot stops and quick stops. This could be due to psychological shock of being shot with a revolver that has noticeably louder report and more muzzle flash than .38, or the sheer amount of blood loss. If you're talking about penetration in soft tissue (flesh, water, ballistic gel, etc.) then you couldn't be more wrong. Although the .357's velocity does give it an edge in regard to bone

>>33950001
9mm doesn't wear out guns as quick as .40 does. Terminal ballistics between the two are very similar, but we know which one is less likely to penetrate a windshield

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>>33950027
>this 27 year old round that is one of the most popular in America is a fad

I'm sick of all this fad plastic toy shit too, AR15's shouldn't have been adopted in the first place.

>>33950047
Imagine 'muh glock' made a .357 autoloader with 9 or 10 cap. Every American would own one.
.357 is such a perfect round .357 sig tries to mimic it.

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>>33950094
>.40
>Most popular round in the us
really?
>>33950101
except its rimmed you idiot, that why there arent any autoloaders using it. ever hear of rimlock? That and putting them in a mag vertically makes a ridiculous curve.

>>33950017
Because they don't have enough energy to reliably reach vital organs or not glance off bone. That and they lose most of their energy going through walls or light barriers. .22 LR's rimmed design makes it inherently less reliable while .380 has too little velocity for its weight to reliably expand with JHPs while meeting the minimum FBI requirement of 12"

>>33950116
oh, except on anime boards filled with teenagers, sorry. I meant popular with things like law enforcement and gun owners.

>>33950116
Coonan, grizzly & IMI make .357 autoloaders.
The plastic fantastic euro guns like 'muh glock' should be able to make one.

>>33950119
forgot to mention that .380 would have the same capacity as 9mm.

Guy should have used .32 cal as an example. Come to think of it a 7.65x21mm round would be interesting. Or maybe just a 5.7 necked up to its base diameter of .31

>>33950119
You seem confused. The fact that you do not need to use JHPs with .380 ACP in order to not wound innocent bystanders is one of the best qualities of .380 ACP.

>inb4 muh JHPs have better wounding capability!

A bullet expanding from the size of a dime to the size of a penny is meaningless when it comes to increased chance to incapacitate. The people who unironically believe that JHPs are used because "they are more effective" and not because they are intended to minimize the risk of overpenetration are as stupid and ignorant as the fudds who think that the marginal difference in diameter between 9mm and .45 ACP is gigantic.

>>33950158
Sure they exist, but they are large and finicky. Instead of chambering autoloaders in a dying cartridge, it would be better if people became interested in 9x25 dillon. Or if ammo manufacturers started loading .357sig back to its original velocity of 1450fps, making it identical to the .357mag LE load

>>33948237
I would say that .40 S&W is a watered down 10mm and .460 rowland is more the "improved" 45 acp but thats my 2 cents

>>33950223
JHPs may not be as explosive in flesh as people think, but a larger diameter and cavity does mean faster blood loss. The difference becomes somewhat noticeable when the projectile expands to twice its own diameter

Also, on the Virginia Tech Massacre:

>Sydney J. Vail, the director of the trauma center at Carilion Roanoke Memorial Hospital, said that Cho's choice of 9 mm hollow-point ammunition increased the severity of the injuries

>>33950251
> .460 rowland is more the "improved" 45 acp

I would agree if .460 Rowland was a practical duty/defensive round, which it isn't. It's not an improvement so much as an evolution; it is its own cartridge and it has its own seperate use (hunting)

>>33950119
this isn't 1980
a decent quality .380 has the same penetration as a cheap 9mm. I prefer to carry my .380, and leave my 9mm at home.
same capacity, smaller, lighter, easier to conceal

>>33950223
Handguns generally being not that great in the first place aside, its a balance between penetration and as much trauma the bullet causes.
To argue for just one aspect is literal dumb. If you think going full fmj in a pistol round is of no difference vs. a good JHP, then you're the exact same as the ones who blindly think all you need is JHP. So I don't see why you'd go on to point such a thing out with 9mm and .45

But I do agree the .380 needs any power it gets since that particular round isn't helped much by jhp.

>>33950305
>this isn't 1980
>says .380 guns are "smaller and easier to conceal"

d'ohoho

otherwise good for you. I would feel confident with a .380 as well

>>33950283
You should take that quote with a grain of salt, as your typical doctor is not a gun guy (As someone living in the NE, I have never met one who even owned firearms...) and knows even less about the basics than your typical nogunz teenager.

More importantly though, are you familiar with the controversy surrounding Winchester Black Talons? If you are, then you should be aware that similar factually unsupported statements were made by some of the surgeons involved in the shooting that sparked that controversy to begin with.

>>33948237
>updated .45 ACP.

uhh anon thats called 45 GAP

>>33950341
I would trust the word of a doctor with extensive experience dealing with various gunshot wounds (ie. not all of them) over armchair commandos and internet experts, honestly.

>and knows even less about the basics than your typical nogunz teenager.

I don't believe that at all. But in any case, firearms knowledge only has so much significance in the real world.

But you have me curious now. Please tell me about the Black Talons incident, if you would

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>>33948237
I just cant seem to muster a fuck to give for .40S&W.
Like its completely irrelevant to me...not like I hate it I just dont care.
The differences from 9mm-.40S&W-.45ACP are just minuscule anyway.

>>33950341
You know they see people in the ER/OR every day with gunshot wounds right? They're trained to know the difference and to follow the wound channel and remove fragments. The Director of the TRAUMA CENTER in Virginia knows a lot about gunshot wounds because a big part of his career was pulling slugs out of people.

>>33950407
>Doctors say that they have never seen more lethal projectiles and that the high-performance bullets pose a special hazard to them. "This class of bullet is enormously destructive and you have to ask the question, 'Why do we need to be so destructive?' " said Dr. John McCabe, president of the American College of Emergency Physicians. "The question is especially important when you consider that health care professionals trying to treat such wounds risk being cut themselves on the bullet's sharp edges."

source: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/07/us/a-tax-debate-focuses-on-destruction-science.html

The controversy involving the Winchester Black Talon came about because of a high-profile mass shooting where they were used by the perpetrator. The media made all kinds of ridiculous claims about how deadly it was, how it could go through body armor, how it was a hazard to EMTs and surgeons trying to treat injuries, etc. These claims by the media were corroborated by the statements of prominent and distinguished members of the medical profession like the one above.

In reality, though, the Winchester Black Talon was just a standard JHP loading of good quality that was no more lethal or effective than any of the other options on the market. The reason it caught so much flak was simply because of its dangerous-sounding name and distinctive appearance.

>>33950540
This sounds more like propaganda and lies than ignorance, in my opinion

>>33950087
>the 125gr .357 JHP is known as the gold standard for one shot stops and quick stops
Lol, shut the fuck up, you fudd trash.

>This could be due to psychological shock of being shot with a revolver that has noticeably louder report and more muzzle flash than .38
Then why does it matter whether it's 125gr, or JHP?

>the sheer amount of blood loss
You mean identical blood loss to a 9mm?

Every single pistol "one shot stop caliber" is a myth.

>>33950585
one does not exclude the other, especially when knowledge of firearms is practically a sin to the left.

>>33949794
>upvote

Get the fuck outta here plebbit fag

>>33950448
>>You know they see people in the ER/OR every day with gunshot wounds right?
Maybe in Chicago.

In Montgomery County, Virginia? ........no.

>>33950001
You probably don't realize, but with this mentally you're calling .30-06,-.30-30, .308, .45-70 and so so so many more as shit
Those have all been major calibers in government
But they've all been moved away from

You're just buying into the memes my dude.

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>current year
>falling for the hollow tipped jew
there's no such thing as "overpenetration"

>>33950608
See >>33949937 You dumb fuck.

I said it myself, "mythical stopping ability" is what people associate with .357, the guy I was responding to said "mythical penetration" which is not what its known for. In case you didn't know, mythical is used in the same way as "magical", it's illogical and rooted in fuddlore.

>You mean identical blood loss to a 9mm?

Mostly identical given similar shot placement, but the fact remains that a larger cavity leads to faster blood loss, even if the difference may be marginal.

>Every single pistol "one shot stop caliber" is a myth.

Shot placement and shock aren't myths. Interestingly enough, there have been studies trying to determine which calibers were more likely to disable or kill someone in one shot, and the results were slightly in favor of larger calibers, but the .380 had much better results, which suggests that most, if not all shooting incidents involving a .380 firearm (that were included in the study) happened at arm's reach distances which easily allows for a lethal shot to the head or upper chest

>>33950540
>doctors being cut on bullet edges
That's the biggest fucking lie in the world.
If a doctor can handle a scalpel, he can handle a Damn piece of lead and copper.
Unless hes digging his finger around the wound like 1800, that's fucking stupid

>>33950017
.380 is a 9mm cartridge.

>>33950027
.38 Special blows, but .357 Magnum is god tier

>>33950119
Hornady produces .380 (and 9x18) ammo with their FTX bullets that get consistent expansion. The trade off is the penetration is 9-10".

9x18 also has XTP ammo from Hornady which is supposed to be pretty good.

>>33950251
Rowland isn't improved. It's a custom cartridge for a custom gun that is impractical for any use besides pistol hunting. It feeds unreliably and requires the use of a compensator or porting.

>>33951073
>The trade off is the penetration is 9-10".

my point exactly

>>33948237
>.40s&w = 10x22mm
>10mm auto = 10x25mm

It's literally updated 10mm. They shaved 3mm off the length so it didn't require massive unpractical guns to shoot it, and didn't have recoil snappy enough to snap female wrists (and make anyone's follow up shots shit).

If you shoot +P .40 you're shooting 10mm, only much cheaper both for the ammo and for the gun itself.

>>33951051
.38 Special is better than many people give it credit for today.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

According to these tests, it is not as good as 9mm or .357 (duh) at fulfilling the FBI criteria but ARE better than .40, .45 ACP, and .380 ACP. This is even the case when fired out of a snubnose.

>>33951149
SAAMI does not have a +P rating for .40 S&W.

>>33951149
>If you shoot +P .40 you're shooting 10mm
wrong

>only much cheaper both for the ammo and for the gun itself.

lolno, 10mm is more expensive because there's less demand for it

>>33950087
>9mm doesn't wear out guns as quick as .40 does.
.40 and 10mm don't wear out guns any faster than 9mm if and only if the gun was actually made to handle the increased punch. 9mm guns with a slapdash rechambering into .40 suck, and unfortunately that's most .40 guns.

>>33951073
Forgot to mention that Underwood produces a 9x18+P loading using Hornady's XTP bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA_xpdT-zaU

>>33951172
The only problem I have with .38 Special is that you'll generally want to use +P ammo with it.

And +P out of a snub nose (which is how a lot of people carry it) can be snappy and somewhat uncomfortable to shoot.

Not trying to knock the cartridge for anyone who carries it though. With modern .38+P ammo, I wouldn't feel undergunned.

>>33950094
You're right, we should have kept the worst battle rifle in existence as our service rifle.

>>33949828
What was wrong with your usp?

>>33948237
.45 Super is the updated .45 ACP, you retarded fuck.

>>33948237
>>33951387
You're both fucking dumb, it's .45 gap.

>>33951387
>muh .45 Super

You mean that loading that is only produced by Buffalo Bore and Underwood that costs over $1 per round?

>>33951430
this, and still loaded to much inferior pressure than 9mm and .40 so still a waste of case volume

>>33951411
.45 GAP has the same snappy recoil that people complain about .40 because it's in a 9mm frame

>>33948237

I don't see how it's an "updated .45 ACP", that'd be something like .45 Super or some shit.

Besides, unless you're a manlet, 10mm is better in literally every way.

9mm for carry, 10mm for innawoods, .45 ACP for history. .40S&W + .357SIG fags can take their meme rounds and leave.

>>33950305

>a decent quality .380 has the same penetration as a *cheap* 9mm

So why not just get "decent quality" 9mm?

>Muh smaller, lighter

Just how scrawny are you?

>>33950808

>there's no such thing as "overpenetration"

Guess we should all load up on FMJ. Be sure to reach vitals that way, collateral be damned, amirite?

>>33951149

>If you shoot +P .40 you're shooting 10mm

Simmer down retardo.

>>33950911
True, but when one says .380 in the context of cartridges and not bullet diameters, it colloquially means .380 ACP, not any 9mm sized cartridge.

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>>33949970
howabout 57-72% greater wound volume per round over 9mm for .45?

>>33951577
Now that I think about it, a .380 should have the same capacity as a 9x19 with the same grip length so the only advantage would be lighter weight and not as deep grip

>>33948237
40 S&W is an "updated" 9mm +P cartridge for modern hollowpoint etc technology

9mm sucked ass until modern reliable +P capabilities and better hollowpoints. The original 45 ACP adoption at the turn of the 20th century was about on par with modern hollowpoint +P 9mm.

40 needs an intermediate frame to handle it, which do exist with handguns originally designed for 40 such as the USP, etc, and the majority of recent new handguns offered in 9/40/45.

>>33951593
380's only advantage is being a pudload 9mm
For people who will never shoot a gun but need to keep it on target the one time in their life they may ever shoot one

>>33951589

Not him but that data looks fishy to me personally, but that's not the issue really.

I suck at math, but let's assume something:

.45 ACP = 100% more effective per round.
9x19mm = 100% more rounds per pistol
Both generally require multiple hits on target.

Which would you choose, and why? (Please don't say "but muh accrcy so gud I nvr miss!")

>>33951518
FMJ has terrible energy transfer characteristics. Use lead semi-wadcutters.
You won't shoot anyone through a target, only when you miss entirely. You don't miss, do you Anon?

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>>33951776
>more effective per round.
The problem is that 9/40/45 are equally effective in practice. Watch any rant by medical professionals treating the ventilated niggers going through ER and those going into the morgue.

The real importance is shot placement. This is why everybody is moving back to 9mm, since 40 requires any training at all to accurately accidentally fire four magazines into a prone unarmed nigger, and the department can afford to pay for all that ammo but not range time to train better police.

40 was developed because of one incident where multiple weaker rounds failed to sufficiently penetrate... but there was armor and shit involved. So departments everywhere panicked and overreacted. Hypothetically 357 SIG was the superior for this problem but wasn't developed via federal contract.

>>33949940
The FBI demanded .40s&w ! Its a cut down 10mm case.

>>33951776
by that argument and considering the likely hood that if im using a firearm for SD i am trying to stop somebody as quickly as possible, .45 would seem to be the obvious choice if shot placement is the same.

Alternatively, in the extremely unlikely event that i were being attacked by 3 or more highly motivated people id probably want the extra capacity a mid size 9mm offers over mid size .45ACP offerings.


The data should look fishy to you, all the numbers are weird on it(high exp and low pen, 9maymay in particular) and most of those links are dead. I just like to post it because it rustles jimmies and most people are two lazy/stupid to check any kind of half baked source you throw out there.

>.40 s&w is a watered down 10mm for limp wristed girls.

>.40 s&w is too snappy


Above ='s the two contradictory arguments made in every .40 thread on why it's "bad".

In reality, the magazine capacity is -2 than 9mm, has more terminal energy than both 9mm and .45, and comes in the same frame size as a typical 9mm.

Enjoy your +100 year old 9mm and .45.

We'll be over here enjoying the advantages of the newer cartridges that takes advantage of better metallurgy and firearm technology.

>>33952278
>Above ='s the two contradictory arguments made in every .40 thread on why it's "bad".
No it's not if you consider the "too snappy" posters are female.

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>>33951589
>>33951776
>>33952278


this god damn thread again

>>33951181
>because there's less demand for it
That's likely to confuse. It's because the market for it is small, so the economy of scale is also small.

>>33952312
are those black ones at the bottom dragon dildos?

>>33952312
>average of 35 loads
>most loads for 10mm are fucking weak

>ranking by magazine capacity
>doesn't take into account that .380 ACP is usually in subcompacts

>>33952278
>just watered down 10mm
>too snappy

Not actually inherently contradictory. If something possesses a noticeable negative attribute but lacks any notable positive attribute then that could be considered bad. let me break it down for you

>.40 is snappier than 9mm. it also has more total recoil energy.

>.40 doesn't produce notably larger wounds than 9mm.

>10mm is much snappier than 9mm, but has much more energy and can create notably larger wounds(usually deeper) than 9mm.

Ergo if you really need more energy/wound depth than 9mm has, 10mm is a good choice. The same couldn't be said for 40 S&W and it has more recoil than 9mm to boot.

Oh yea, and PS, .45 can be loaded to higher energy levels than .40 can. Likely will do a better job of depositing it quickly in a target too, if you know, energy deposition is your thing.

>>33952312
Shit infograph.

>implying gel jiggle or temporary cavitation mean shit for handygats.

>implying energy implications

>average of some loads that some guy arbitrarily chose, whether it was to elicit certain results or done completely randomly we dont know.

>incorrect or misleading numbers in multiple areas

>capacity ranking only takes arbitrarily picked designs into account

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>>33952345

>>33952371
>Oh yea, and PS, .45 can be loaded to higher energy levels than .40 can.
.460 Rowland, which has the same OAL as .45 ACP and can use .45 ACP magazines at same capacity, can actually punch big holes in a grizzly's skull.

>>33952422
>10mm loads are Federal and Hornady
It's shit desu.

>>33952431
If you want to put your life in the hands of a weapon with horrible feeding problems, go right ahead.

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>>33952312
>actually believes the temporary cavity matters in handguns
Dumbass, read into this on google. Handguns don't achieve the necessary velocities for the shock to matter. Typically only rifle rounds do.

>>33950366
>uhh anon thats called 45 GAP
Actually it's called 450 smc and 45 super, and it is equal to slightly better than 10mm auto, while also being lower pressure.

>>33953157
>equal to slightly better than 10mm auto
Wrong. Even .45 Super can't achieve the same muzzle energy as 10mm Auto can. .400 Cor-bon comes close, though.

>having the silly 9mm vs .40 vs .45 caliber discussion when superior .38super exist
LOL

>>33950407
Well the doctor will not have all of the facts. Barrel length, ammunition used, distance. Whether the bullet had to go through a barrier, was the person shot by multiple guns? I am sure there are more , but really, I doubt they know half as much as they think they do. They are cocky shits, so they think they know everything.

>>33951241
just use 147gr full wadcutters

>>33948237
.40 Super is the true heir to both .40 smallnweak + .45 stupenpowa

keep arguing guys, I'll just be over here with a p2000 full of 115gr 9mm +P+ @1350 fps

oh yeah, and 124gr NATO practice ammo @ $0.18 a pop

shot placement >> anything

>>33955991
>I'll just be here with my +P++P+++ supercharged turbo overclock deluxe specialty

I really really appreciate that 40 S&W attempted to be a clean break of a umpteenth (hundredth or millionth?) technological update of a 100 year old design, and I really wish it succeeded better for it

tnoutdoors9 has a high opinion of .40 but he still prefers 9mil

Yankee, plz go. I saw your video in this and im a fan. But plz go and stay go

>>33949863
Where are these? I'm in the market for a USP

>>33950094
This is fucking retarded. Your post made me have a bowel movement.

>.40 short&weak
Get a 10mm, faggot

>>33956128
That's not what .40 s&w was attempting to do at all. It was attempting to put the 10mm FBI load into a 9mm frame by grtting rid of the empty space in the cartridge. The 10mm FBI load was made because female agents and paper pushers whined about the full-power 10mm loads, resulting in a lot of empty space in the cartridge. 10mm Auto was made because the FBI wanted a cartridge that could more reliably incapacitate a target, after they got BTFO in the Miami Shootout.

>>33953710
>boutique competition caliber
>the best loads achievable are still inferior to modern 9mm loads

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>>33948237
>(difference in diameter is 0.05")
I think you legitimately believe this.

>>33956954
>Use 22 and 22
>If you can shoot well you dont need a large round
>if you cannot shoot well you need something quiet enough that nobody will be sure where the shot came from

>>33959499
The actual difference is 0.051, so what? bite me

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>>33950833
600 nitro revolver. If anything is one shot stop, this is.

>>33960504
Shoot someone in the big toe with this, they won't be stopped. Any bullet with decent amount of power applied to forehead will be lights out for them

.600 Nitro is overkill anyway. It probably wouldn't do as much damage as a .500 S&W: it would just go through someone making a nasty hole, but keeping most of its energy as it exits the body. This firearm in particular is retarded too

>>33960504
That's gonna one shot stop the shooter.

>>33959689
anon, you know what today is?
you really need to go thank yer mum for keeping you

>>33960787
>implies I'm stupid
>changes the subject when he realizes he is in fact retarded

>>33950585
porque no los dos

>>33960865
one is intentional, the other (usually) isn't

>>33960817
This is some weak bait anon
if you don't understand cal measurements at least google what they are in millimemers

>>33961384
Still waiting for you to "correct" me. I don't need google when I have a functioning brain, unlike you

>>33949937
.357 sig is not watered down .357 mag if you buy it in its intended loadings. it was intended to replicate .357 mag out of a typical carry length revolver and that's exactly what it does when loaded properly.

>>33961571
>that's exactly what it does when loaded properly.

Which it hasn't been in factory loads for years. Down-loaded from 1450fps to 1350fps. The former are now considered hot loads

>>33961609
so? don't blame .357 sig for that. blame shitty companies. underwood and I think buffalo bore still give proper loadings.

>>33961624
I wasn't shitting on the cartridge, just saying it like it is. And I kinda understand why they did it. They probably wanted to reduce cost and recoil so more LE departements would adopt it

>>33958383

and in the 1930's, the .357 mag was developed in response to gangsters/mobsters using armor and cardoors as cover.

>>33961509
>when I have a functioning brain
[citation needed]

>>33961855
the difference in diameter between .40 and .45 is 1.3mm which is 0.5 inch. Piss off

>>33949828
Doubt that.

>>33950001
Lol they are dropping it for 9mm because females couldn't handle .40.

Daily reminder that 9mm is for pussies who can't handle a mans caliber.

>>33950027
>Its cheap,
Lol, 9mm is better and cheaper than .38.

>>33961960
Meant 0.05" obviously

>>33956954
>only use 17hmr lol cuz shot placement is all that matters xD
fuck off redditor

>>33960554
>22LR is the same as a mortar shell cuz they both won't one stop you if they only hit your toe
Good logic nogunz

>>33962251
I don't need to tell you why that's not a coherent comparison. The two are so wildly different, they're not the same type of projectiles nor do they have the same wounding mechanisms.

>>33951893
>but there was armor and shit involved

No there wasn't, it was shitty Silver tips, and bones, nothing to do with armor.