I cant believe 10mm Auto isn't more popular. It's the

>>33881713
Not NATO standard, therefore it is irrelevant

Only NATO standard cartridges matter

>>33881738
muh circular reasoning

I don't give a fuck about glocks, 1911s, or Italian CZ knockoffs so there's no interesting guns to me that shoot it.

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>The best

>>33881713

I been debating on getting a 10mm for /out/ activities.

>>33881713
It wasn't widely adopted by cops like .40 S&W was. It also isn't an old cartridge with a lot of history like 45 ACP. It also isn't the NATO standard pistol round like 9mm. So it became a novelty round for gun enthusiasts.

>>33881713
The 10mm is a way better cartridge than 9mm. But here's the thing: no one wants a cartridge better than 9mm.

>>33881821
y

Most people who own handguns are faggots who never shoot and complain about even 9mm recoil. 10mm is just too much for most faggots.

Anyone who uses 10mm works for UNATCO, can't be trusted.

What are some good handguns that come in 10mm that are not glocks?

>>33881843
Because 9mm is good enough for almost every single possible usage of an autoloading pistol while being dirt cheap to feed and mild enough on recoil that even faggots and old ladies can shoot it all day long.

>>33881875
EAA/Tangfolio Witness is the only other factory gun worth a shit unless you want to get into semicustom or caliber-swapped 1911's.

>Expensive because there are no large, institutional buyers for it
>There is also no established consumer base
>Guns that shoot it are expensive for the same reason
>Too much kick for 90% of the population to handle and place fast and reliable followup shots with, which is why no large organizations buy it
>Its small cult following is as narcissistic and overblown about it as fucking 5.7 fags

Inb4 "but it's cheap if you reload it!"

>>33881843
As far as defense goes, there's not much point. In the realm of practicality, 9mm does fine. No matter what you use, the average gunfight will usually require 3 to 8 shots. Adrenaline and other factors mean that there will be no noticeable difference as far as handgun cartridges go

10mm is popular for woods carry/handgun hunting though, because it does something that a 9mm can't: adequately shattering bone of mid-size animals at certain distances (and penetration)

>>33881713
Sorry sweetie, .357 SIG is best, 10mm is second-best.

>>33881871
The NSF used 10mm. Deus Ex, in its infinite wisdom, knew 10mm was the future and would become NATO standard.

Nobody needs a handgun cartridge bigger than .38 special for daily carry, prove me wrong

>>33882161

>not .25 acp

Enjoy carrying around all that extra weight 30 cal fag.

>>33882186
I know this is a sarcastic/rhetorical post, but .25 actually works OK at point blank range

>>33881713
>It's the best auto loader pistol cartridge to come out
>.357 sig exists
but(t) you're wrong

>>33882128
Fallout knew it first

>>33882290
Black Isle/Obsidian Fallout is similarly #woke af

>>33881767
What about the Sig?
Also,
>not giving a fuck about some of the best guns on the market
kek
>>33881875
>>33881890
Glocks, Sig 220. The Tanfo is good, but if you want to feed it hot 10mm (the only reason 10mm is great) you need to buy a 22lbs recoil spring. This is not optional.
>>33881906
>The guns are expensive
>Doesn't realize 10mm guns can be had for less than 500 dollarydoos
>Thinks it recoils like a magnum; it does not
>Actually a fantastic round, whereas 5.7 is rebranded .22WMR
>>33882119
Gel, bone, and surgeons suggest otherwise.

10mm is an objectively better round than other autoloading handgun cartridge.

6.5 Grendel also beats the shit out of 5.56. The best is not always the most prolific.

Honest question tho, why some calibers (.40 SW, 10 Auto, 357 Sig) have always flat point bullets and others (9mms, .30 cals) almost always round nose unless HP?

>>33882281
>.357 sig
Even bigger meme cartridge than 10mm.

>>33882281
>.357 sig
>not 9x25 dillon

do you even opr8?

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>>33881713

Best? That's subjective. Most powrful production cartridge readily available? Yeah sure, maybe. But best for shooting rapid out of control Googles? That is the 357, my friendo.

>>33882429
>That is the 357, my friendo.
>posts the watered down version

>>33882429
Lol nope.
The 7.62 tokarev is the best
And 7.5 Fk is better than that.

>>33882454
I'd even give you that 7.5 Fk is better than 10mm if any were actually made.

I'm still torn between a G32 and G29 for my next carry gun.

>>33882443

357 sig fits the perfect medium of power, penetration and controllability. Something more powerful is rarely needed over the follow up shots 357 sig has.

>>33882495
Yeah, and the bottleneck design is a bonus for feeding reliability I guess. But originally, .357 Sig was supposed to recreate the performance of the " legendary man stopper" load used by the FBI: the .357 mag 125gr Federal JHP, going at 1450 FPS. They did reach their initial goal, but the average .357 sig load is 125gr 1350fps

>>33882495
the idea of a "perfect balance" is very arbitrary.

>>33882474
When I say that cartridge is better or the best I don't include availability, just performance.

>>33882547

To a degree, yes. For me, with my Glock 32 it is the biggest and baddest round I can shoot very fast and accuretly. Sure 10mm is more powerful, but with my Glock 20 I cannot nearly shoot it as fast as the 32 to make it worth it.

I'd say for the vast majority of people, 357 sig is the perfect balance, especially considering it's barrier penetration and proven stopping power.

>>33882557
Then for sure. It's fucking amazing, and I want it to take off.

>>33882572
The question is why hasn't such a cartridge taken off already in the past?
I mean a flat shooting relatively low recoil armor penetrating cartridge in a semi auto with 14 rounds?
Should already be a thing and guess it is already with 7.62 tok but that isn't that popular.

>>33882377
Pls respond ^^'

>>33882377
Historically it's because cartridges were laid end to end in tube magazines of older rifles where having pointy noses pressed up against the primer of the next round was less than ideal. Flat noses also allow for better cycling reliability as the bullets make their way down the mag tube by keeping rounds butted up against each other and forming a straighter, more consistently spaced line where the conical shames could pitch out of alignment.

In modern firearms where the rounds are usually stacked vertically atop each other in a magazine, the flat nose still poses a few benefits. The first being that the bullet is a truncated cone shape making for a slightly shorter cartridge while still retaining the dimension of the case (or have an even longer one). Ballistically the flat nose dissipates energy more immediately which means it doesn't penetrate as much and creates a larger wound cavity. Obviously you can tinker with different loads for different effects, but that's just a general rule of thumb.

>>33882377
to make them fit in smaller frames. In the case of the .40 S&W, they have to make them fit in 9mm handgun frames. If the .40 had round nose projectiles, it would be longer than the 9mm.

It also allows them to seat the bullet deeper in the case and load them to high pressures

>>33882619
I'm not sure it's even possible to dethrone NATO rounds anymore, as unfortunate as that is. 7.62x25 Tok was definitely on to something good, I'm frequently upset that nobody makes modern guns for it.

.357 Sig is the closest we can get, but is still outperformed by 10mm, but all of it is irrelevant because the entire world is stuck on 9mm and 5.56, when 7.5 FK, .357 Sig, 6.5 Grendel, 10mm, all exist.

>>33882680
OK I knew about lever gun rounds, but didn't know about modern ammo like 10mm that is designed for auto pistols.

>>33882716
6.5 Grendel could be improved.
Id like for it to do 2650 fps from a 16 inch barrel with a 140 grain ultra bc bullet with a 70 grain 800 Brinell penetrator, soft lead core, and 60 Brinell thick jacket with an air pocket between the penetrator and lead.
Not sure how long the projectile would be but it should do 2650 fps and should get at least 15 reloads and 15000 rounds from a bolt head.

>>33882764
It's theoretically possible to load hot with a heavier buffer spring. I think, maybe.
Wouldn't you have to replace most barrels at 15k rounds anyway? And what kind of lifespan do Grendel bolt heads get? I was under the assumption it was 15k minimum.

I cant believe .357 SIG isn't more popular. It's the best auto loader pistol cartridge to come out... ever.

OP has fallen into the same trap as magnum-obsessed fudds; thinking more power is automatically better.

In reality, you want the least-powerful round that will reliably put the target down, as overpowered boutique cartridges are bad for follow-up shots, bad for practicing, and bad for your wallet.

>>33881713
10mm is not more popular because:

Most people can't shoot it effectively.
Recoil is too heavy for most people.
Expensive to shoot.
Most people buy what is on the shelf and 10mm pistols are not that common in your LGS.

That said, Jerry Miculek claims to carry one in his vehicle for its better penetration on auto glass.

It was developed by Jeff Cooper.

These guys are world class shooters. So, if you have the skills to rock a 10mm, go for it. But for most people it is just too much gun.

And if your are going to rock a 10mm you might as well do yourself a favor and use .357 Sig.

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>>33881879
>Because 9mm is good enough
>9mm
>Its not just "good"
>Its "good enough"

>>33882779
Probably not, the case would definitely might explode, or at the very least not last that many reloads.

Yes but you don't want to replace your bolt head every 3k rounds like you need to do with a 7.62x39 bolt head.

>>33882824

>this

Which is why 357 sig is the best pistol cartridge, especially when you can get it for the price of 45 from the store and/or reload.

>>33882824
7.5 Fk doesn't have that bad recoil and 7.62 tok definitely doesn't.

>>33882870
Well, shit, there goes that idea. What about a different manufacturing process for the case?
>3k round life on a bolt head
Jesus christ.

>>33881875
The Colt Delta Elite is back from the factory for under 1200

>>33882839
yeah Jerry Miculek is an exception. that guy knows how to handle recoil

https://youtu.be/nOzyqiT1FFA

>>33882901
I'd imagine you could increase the volume a bit to lower pressures and also increase thickness at the bottom.

For 7.62x39 ars sometimes the bolt life is just 1k or 2k rounds before the lugs crack.
Ar15 really isn't that good for multi caliber given how small the it is.

I have a much better design in mind for a multi cal service rifle.

>>33882913
>power factor

What is this nonsense? Just use ft-lbs or Joules.

>>33883005
Since this is now a scholarly thread, mind sharing? You'd also be taking on a massive economy of scale.

>>33883020
For my multi cal service rifle?

>>33883063
Yep, unless it's something you plan on introducing to market. I could understand not wanting to share if so.

>>33882716

We might actually get 6.5, just not Grendel.

Some Anon showed off the LMG the army is looking to procure, and how they are also building an AR version of it. They are using polymer cased ammo. From what their testing has shown so far is they've got a pretty much mature system that actually works as intended, and has no downsides.

If this goes somewhere, and it might, we might see 5.56 getting replaced a decade or two down the line. I agree though with everything else. I honestly think it comes down to economy of scale, and where the manufacturers think the money is.

>Military wants 9mm
>Why? Because it's easy to procure.
>Public wants 9mm.
>Why? Because they are ex-military, or want what the military uses.
>We want to use 9mm.
>Why? Because we've already got everything needed to manufacture 9mm in place.

>>33883098
If it performs similarly to or outperforms Grendel, then I welcome it with open arms. And yeah, economy of scale is a mad bitch to overcome.

>>33883010
idk, I just linked it for the insane slow mo footage

the second someone makes a new pistol, carbine, or ideally a 10mm version of popular smg "pistols" then it's not gonna get more popular

anyone that wants a glock 20/29 is going to get talked into a 19 instead, and then after that your only option is 7-10rd mag 1911s, overpriced sigs, and novelty pistols that treat the round like it's some goofy range queen round

so basically theres no options, i have a shitty RIA 10mm 1911 that works fine and demonstrates the value of the round, but it's far from something i'd ever carry. and i'm not exactly fond of DAO striker fired polymer, sure as hell not with 10mm

so basically it's the pistols that are meme status, not really the round

>>33883117

It does AFAIK.

>>33883077
yeah that wouldnt be possible.
here it is.

-It would be a bullpup rifle just so you could have a longer barrel and shorter over all length.
-it would have interchangeable magwells with a super magwell(the super magwell would take the smaller magwells so that you could have magazines for the ar10 or ar15 or even above that, something like 338 lapua mag or that 50 cal russian sub sonic round). max size cartridge would probably be 4 inches in over all length. would even add option ak mag conversions.
-it would be direct gas impingement except it would have a recoil spring in an op rod, like the para elite tactical 556 ar15.
-interchangeable ar15 and ar10 bolt heads(would need conversion piece for ar10 bolt head).
-side charging.
-the bcg would have placement space for tungsten as extra weight for larger caliber rounds and there would be different strength springs as well. would probably add rollers to the bcg as well for some of the more hefty calibers like 338 or 12 guage.
-it would have a quick change barrel system, a combination of the dolos system and the mgi system with a conversion kit for smaller ar15 barrels.
-bolt heads would have a thickness of .2 inches for the lugs for the highest stress calibers.
-material would be steel for the lower and 7075 aluminum for the mag conversions, possibly titanium, not sure which one would hold up against stress the best. this goes for the upper as well, dont know too much about metallurgy.
-for the coating im thinking of melonite.
not sure about the weight but i imagine it would be around 10 to 11.5 pounds, depends on the config of course, probably a lot less for a 556 14.5 barrel of course but certainly heavier than a standard ar15.
-would have a quad rail keymod combo and mag and bolt release would all be at where the trigger is.
-non recip side charging
cost would probably be around 3 to 4k, which for what youd be getting is perfectly reasonable.
-all parts(except for things like hand guard) would be forged.

>>33883077
-also the gas block would be completely adjustable and could be fit unto barrels that are as 1.15 thick.

>>33882228

So does fucking everything else. Everything else also works at ranges longer than that.

>>33883077
i do need to work out all the specifics and dimensions and calculations regarding recoil and what not and how everything would fit together but the way it sits in my mind i dont see a reason why this rifle could not be built.
and again 3 to 4k is what i would charge, you may think thats low but its really not.
all these companies charge so much because they can, not because its actually expensive to make the gun.
now sure, somethings like the forging will cost quite a bit but the rest not so much.
i would need tight tolerances for the magwell and the quick change barrel system though.

>>33881996
>adequately shattering bone of mid-size animals at certain distances (and penetration)
this is good for self defense as well. 9mm is objectively worse than 45, 40, and 10mm

its good enough in most instances, yes. but not as good as the above 3

>>33883388
45 sucks for penetration and shoots like a rainbow at distance.
Even 10mm isn't that good.
9x25 Dillion is bette.

>>33883411
what kind of distance are you needing your pistol for? 45 hits like a freight train and is accurate out to 100 yds

id say the worst problem with 45 is size of the gun and weight, which is the main advantage 9mm has over the other 3. but there are 40 versions of 9mm platforms that are identical in size and dimensions

>>33883388
40 isn't a bad round it will kill shit but 9mm is just cheap, super controllable, and higher capacity. For ccw with modern hollowpoints on an unarmored target 40sw doesnt do shit 9mm can't. I'd much rather have the extra capacity and less recoil especially if I'm shaking and Adrenalin is pumping.

>>33883464
Don't you want to have the most versatile pistol round?
Also still penetration sucks at all distances.
That's definitely important for armor and Barriers.

>>33883464
>45 hits like a freight train

This is what .45 fags actually believe

>>33881713

.40 S&W is the new and improve cartridge of the 10mm.

.40 S&W>10mm

Cry more.

>>33883704
LOL
40 sw is the beta cucked version of the 10mm
40 sw was created because faggots like you couldn't handle the much more powerful 10mm.

>>33883464
>45 hits like a freight train

Newton's third law of physics says otherwise. That and chronographs, and anybody who cares enough to use google. The difference between 9mm and .45 is 50 ftlbs, 0.1 inch and 4 to 7 rounds in a double stack magazine

>>33882337
>what are some good 10mm's that are not glocks
>lists glock first
You are a goddamn retard

Also the 10mm P220 is shit.

>>33883880
>Also the 10mm P220 is shit.

Why?

>>33882885
>7.5 FK doesn't have that bad recoil
Even in their heavily edited promo videos where they have a bodybuilder-tier huge professional shooter shooting it with the illegal-in-the-US folding stock it's rocking the shit out of him, and has visibly more muzzle climb than the fuckoff-huge .44mag revolver they did the side-by-side comparison with.

>>33883916
Because all they did was stick a 10mm barrel on an unmodified .45acp frame. They have feeding and ejection issues, and the fuckhuge .45cal-specific firing pin they never bothered to change has a tendency to perforate primers on otherwise-safe hot loads and lead to breechface erosion.

>>33882228
Go away Vasily.

>>33884003
I was thinking about sootch's videos when I posted that, actually

>>33883953
Bullshit
If weighs half as much 40 sw and goes twice as fast with probably a little more powder
Going off of the recoil equation the recoil is pretty the same as a 40

>>33882228
So does a .22, but a .22 might actually do something other than piss him off.

>>33884111
Go watch the fucking videos.

https://www.fkbrno.com/videos-7-5

>>33883661
But muh sturping purwur!

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>>33881713

no, no it's not

>>33883753

>faggots couldn't handle it.

wrong.

It was developed in the FBI, to be more accurate and have the right amount of killing power over an 9mm. It is literally the aryan cartridge, because the 10mm is inferior in everyway.

cry more bitch nigger.

>>33884176
bahahah talking about the fbi, as if they didnt just drop the 40 and go back to 9mm. its cool 40 short and wimpy is shit tier and everyone knows it.

>>33881767
There's also smith&wessons and sigs.

>>33884176
It was developed because queers like you couldn't handle the recoil and shoot for shit.
10mm is better than 40.
For is for queers(you).

>>33881875
>>>33881713 (OP)
S&W 5906, 5006, etc.

>>33884135
Videos mean shit.
Equations don't lie.

>>33884130
.22 and .25 are very similar given equal barrel length (assuming less than 3")

but if you hit someone's neck or head in the right spots, caliber won't matter. A hit to the brain matter is usually lights out, same with the spinal cord. A hit to the CNS has a good chance of incapacitating.

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>>33884206
>>33884221


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv8cByaVyNQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0

Watch these and git educated.

Don't start crying when you realize the truth, or at least don't shed your tears here, because you will be laughed at.

>>33884238
Let's just hope you get it to the back of his neck then, and not into his rib cage.

>>33883464
>.45 hits like a freight train

While .45 does have big bullit, they move slow as hell, unless you're talking about .45 super or .460 rowland.

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>>33882186
If only .25 ACP had a longer cartridge or else make 7.62 Tok, where are the more modern 7.62 Tok pistols are?

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>>33884320
the .25 acp can still stop someone, whether from the (underestimated) psychological shock of being shot, damaging the CNS or a vital organ. The main difference between a .25 acp and a .45 acp is that the latter produces a wound cavity which in theory would be 0.2 inch larger and would cause more blood loss.

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>>33882764
Probably only get that performance from just 6.5 Creedmore

>>33884300
already saw them, don't care. 40 short and wimpy is garbage and a solution to a non existent problem.

>>33884431
little more volume from a larger diameter case and a thicker bottom rated for higher pressure then you could do that with 6.5 Grendel.>>33884431

>>33884300
40 sw was created because queers such as yourself couldn't handle the recoil of a proper 10mm.
This is a fact.
It is worse in everyway.

>>33884399
you mean faster blood loss.
If an artery is severed, it will pump out the same amount of blood regardless of caliber of the bullet. the big the hole, the faster the bleed out.

>>33882909
You should be able to find it right around 1050 most places. Its a nice firearm

The 10mm isn't more popular because it's heavy recoiling and requires a large framed handgun. .40 S&W takes care of both of those issues if you are willing to trade a significant amount of power to do so.

That said, 10mm is becoming more powerful, and had Springfield not acted like complete faggots a week ago I'd still be interested in whatever the hell they're coming out with in the coming year.

>>33881769
Well you got his point so does it really matter that you stopped reading?

>>33884545
>implying Springfield hasn't always been garbage that imported firearms with cut corners, slapped Springfield on it and American made and marked it up 2x>>33884545

>>33884581
Springfield isn't a good company, but that doesn't stop the XD and XDm series from being good pistols. Slavs know how to make shit go bang.

If I could buy and XDm in 10mm without supporting Springfield in any way, I probably would. But fuck those faggots.

>>33883010
>>33883150
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor_(shooting_sports)
I got you guys.

>>33882348
Only at long range, Id take 5.56 over 6.5 for 300 on in.

>>33883704
>new and improve cartridge of the 10mm
>40 is based off of the FBI light loads for the 10mm
>hence the reason you can shoot 40 out of any 10mm gun

Are you retarded?

>>33884176
Goddamn you're such a faggot that this post gave me AIDS.

>>33883010
It's a momentum unit that's actually kilograins-foot/second

One of if not the stupidest unit I've ever seen...

daily reminder 9mm is for gays and women

>>33881713
All are good rounds and serve particular purposes.
Why isn't there an LCP2 in 10mm? /s

>>33881738
"yeah.. I mean, my caliber a shit but... NATO's cheap fucks use it because its cheap so that means its the best"

>>33885642
This. I saw the XDm shorlty after I heard about what they did. I would have otherwise bought one, but fuck them.

>>33884443
>>33884484

>provides facts

>ignores facts


Wew, i know you're in denial but god damn, there is a reason why /k/ is not known for it's intelligence.

Deny it all you want, but the .40 sw is the newest and best engineered handgun cartridge for killing.

not my fault you have a gimped round and have a shitty grouping with a 10mm.

>muh don't be a pussy excuse.

nah, it's proven you can't consecutively hit your target in a tight group compared to a .40 which has all the pros of a 10mm.

lmao cry baby faggots.

Personally id prefer 44 mag or 454 cas for a large caliber pistol

>>33886600
You're probably baiting, but seriously, just how fucking retarded do you have to be to give the same bullet less velocity and power and call it better?

.40S&W was created specifically because female agents couldn't control 10mm. The shootouts you posted are what specifically gave rise to the 10mm, which was later neutered into .40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EATsNiio-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z49Lbnt16M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtFvSC9WCQM

>>33886699
>.40S&W was created specifically because female agents couldn't control 10mm.
No it wasn't.

The FBI was shooting light-load 10mm (aka the "FBI load") anyway. Recoil control wasn't the issue. The .40 was created because it could match the performance of the FBI load 10mm while fitting in a gun frame that was smaller in size.

>>33881713
In my county 10mm is $30/50 rnd box. The 380 is $11 a box, so I carry 380. This is literally the only reason. I have no hate for the other cartridges or their performance. Also in my county the 10mm and .40 cal pistols are 'police only'. I get 9mm, 380 and .45

Has anyone really tracked and written down how well 10mm poly guns last? Do they wear and crack quickly?

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>>33883464
>45 hits like a freight train
Only if you are directed by Walter Hill.

>>33884343
>.45 super or .460 rowland.
Working on converting to 45 super/450 smc. Seems like a fun round.

>>33887140
They were light loading 10mm because of the female agents and fat paper pushers who would whine about the recoil. The FBI load acts exactly like .40 S&W. They are both weak to the originally designed loading, and are negligibly superior to 9mm, defeating the purpose of a new cartridge altogether.

>>33887358
Glock 20's hold up pretty well.