Why did the Germans get so butthurt about shotguns during ww1?

>>33776853

They didn't, it's a meme and you fell for it.

>>33776853
cause the Model 10 was OP

>>33776853
>getting all your historical info from an anime

>>33776853
Pretty sure that's false. Otherwise they would bitch about artillery and gas attacks.

Part of it is that Europeans tend to see shotguns as hunting guns and rifles as military guns, which is part of the reason why even in parts of Europe with a lot of gun control, it's still generally possible to legally buy a shotgun. The idea of using shotguns in warfare just seems wrong to them. Whether it makes sense or not, that's the way it is.

>>33776853
>getting your history from anime

It was never contested that such weapons were permissable under the laws of war. German command thought they were barbaric and gruesome but it was not a treaty violation.

Anecdotally German grunts showed particular animosity towards enemy soldiers captured with them. Such stories are suspect however, outrage-propaganda was rampant at the time on both sides so stories of cruelty need be taken with a grain of salt.

Both sides utilized lurid tales of cannibalism, crucifixion, torture, and mutilation to dehumanize public opinion towards the opposing side and fuel recruitment drives. Such made up stories eventually became accepted as "fact" by historians and today there really isnt any proof any of it happened outside of the propaganda posters themselves.

Hell, french government spun stories of angels descending from heaven to halt enemy advances. In the british version it was the ghosts of medieval longbowmen. Propaganda in the 1900's was NOT subtle.

>>33777107

wrong thread. my bad

>>33776882
>>33777005
technically it wasnt wrong in the anime as they had the disclaimer saying it was not based on true events or people. But it does bring a lot of old historical questions to the surface. I feel that alone is a good thing.

>>33777005
The German's took us to court and sued saying they were a violation of the treaty though.

>>33776853
In the show the trench gun was retardedly OP so it makes sense

IRL it's just a meme you dip

>>33776864
>>33776882
>>33776889
>>33777219
I never said that the germans or anyone else outlawed shotguns, I said that they got butt hurt about the usage of shotguns in warfare. I don't get my history from Tanya (I only used the picture, because it was the first kinda relevant pic I could find), I got it from Ian and he said in that one video that the germans made this decree near the end of the war saying that if any American was captured carrying a shotgun he was to be executed. In reality nobody was ever executed, partially do to threats by America saying that they would start executing people if Germany was going to go through with their decree and partly because the war ended shortly afterwards.
>>33776892
This is the answer I was looking for.
>>33777005
>Ghosts of medieval longbowmen appearing outta nowhere and fucking up the german army
kek

>>33776864
>>33776882
>>33776889
>>33777005
>>33777156
>>33777219
>>33777285

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0D6p3w2qgY

>>33777005
>ghosts of British longbowmen raising up to fight the Wehrmacht
/tg/ as fuck my man

>>33777334
Anime 1
/k/ autists 0

>>33776877
Don't fucking remind me.
>a guy has 56 service stars with one when I was on today

>>33776853
stop watching anime

>>33777893
I'm imagining them firing a single volley in the direction of French Lines "Just for old times sake"

>>33776853
This anime is fucking cringe as fuck, and no the Germans did NOT say shotguns are against the rules of war.

>>33777005
>. Such made up stories eventually became accepted as "fact" by historians and today there really isnt any proof any of it happened outside of the propaganda posters themselves.
>Historians
They probably are the source of whatever you are blabbering right now.

Stop misconstruing pop history with academic history.

>>33778021
See:
>>33777334
Anime 2
/k/ autists 0

>>33777189
You can't sue over that, it's not a legal body.

>>33778126
>Ian.
WHY IN THE FUCK DO RETARDS USE HIM AS THEIR SOURCE?

>>33778147
Because he's an expert on historical firearms and trivia regarding them and thus a valid source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897#World_War_I_protests
>Although the Model 1897 was popular with American troops in World War I, the Germans soon began to protest its use in combat. "On 19 September 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the shotgun was prohibited by the law of war."[16] A part of the German protest read that "[i]t is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" as defined in the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare.[2]

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>>33776853
Wut anime
Need to add to my backlog and never watch

>>33777107
METAL GEAR?!

>>33778300
The Evil of Tayuya or something to that effect.

>>33778300
Don't bother. It's garbage that only panders to /pol/

>>33778300
correction
Saga of Tanya the Evil

>>33778320
Why would you spoonfeed a fucking retard?

>>33776853
From my understanding it wasn't because the germans thought they were too powerful or did too much damage or anything but because shotguns had only been considered a hunting only weapon to them.

Because of this they looked at comrades being killed by shotguns as akin to the enemy putting them down like a wild animal.

>>33777005
>ghost bowmen totally didn't fuck up the huns I swear guys
Give me one proof that it didn't happen.

>be guy in german high command
>know perfectly fine how the war stands
>can't stand this situation without getting drunk regularly
>know what hans, I just had the silliest idea ever

Here's why in basic terms

>Germans didn't field shotguns
>engagement ranges were often beyond point blank ranges of 40 yards or so
>#4 buck, 00buck, and even birdshot(yes, back in them days they used birdshot because that's all they had sometimes) would cause horrible maiming and wounds at those ranges
>often removing a man's hands/fingers/face/eyes without killing him

Wounding/maiming was considered unhumanitarian, and shotguns at range often caused horrendous wounds rather than outright killing. It's the same reason 3 edged bayonets were banned. So yeah, that's why, but Germans were faggots for complaining about that while also dropping mustard gas on people.

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>>33776853

>>33778694
>3 edged bayonets were banned
You have a sauce for this? Because the epee bayonet for the Lebel has FOUR edges.

>>33778709
They werent officially banned until The Geneva Convention of 1949: "That a ban is placed onserrated and angular bayonets, because the wounds left behind place undue suffering that persists even after the conflict has been resolved." But it was pretty much an unspoken gentleman's agreement long before that. So was firing on air crewman bailing from an aircraft in distress, shooting at a non combatant medic, chaplains and so on. Those things were not officially written in ink until the mid 20th century, but we're understood as something you just don't do.

>>33778736
>onserrated and angular bayonets,
That doesn't really ban more than two edges. Several countries continued to used bayonets with cruciform cross-sections (like the PRC with the Type-56).

>>33778748
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I would assume that there was some "lag time" or "grandfathering" that took place allowing countries that signed the convention some period to refit their troops with newly compliant weapons. Sometimes refitting an army can take decades.

>>33778755
Type-56 was designed after 1949; there's no grandfathering in. We also still use bayonets with somewhat serrated edges like the M9, OKC-3S.

>>33778762
Again, not an expert on the subject, but serrations are not used to hurt the enemy, nor are wire cutters on bayonets. They are used for food prep, fieldcraft, ect...

Similarly OTMP rounds lime 7ugr 5.56 are not hollow points, they are designed ed for accuracy.

idk.... just a bunch of political nonsense. It should be legal to drop AIDS ridden bloodsucking bugs and napalm on people if you're at war with them.

>>33778300
>....
>...
>...
>...
>...eh? ah.
>...

There, that's Time of Eve in its entirety.
You can mark that one as done.

>>33777893
>ww1
>wehrmacht

>>33776864

The did officially protest through the Swiss cable service to Robert Lansing who did, indeed, confer for a legal opinion before responding. Their claim was is violated Article 26 (e) of the Hague.

The Germans threatened execution of shotgun users in their cable. Lansing responded that shotguns were no worse than shrapnel and that if the Germans executed anyone the US would conduct reprisal killings.

The matter dropped there and no documented cases of an execution are known.

>>33779079
Yes. WW1 Wehrmacht.

>>33778314
Saga of Tanya the Evil

>>33776877
Was or is?

>>33776853
anything to post that picture again, huh?

>>>/ak/

>>33780520
Probably cause the war ended a month later.

>>33777005
You mean the Germans didn't have v1s and Gigants in ww1?

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>>33777107
>Sultans harem after the bombardment

>>33778300
The anime is Jin Roh

>>33778762
Maybe you should look at the list of nations that signed what parts of what conventions and how certain countries were party to or signed but did not ratify

>>33777005

Don't forget the time that the British invented this retarded story of Germans taking women and children and melting them down into canned rations to feed soldiers on the front lines.


Or that time in the 40's when they decided to take the same shitty death factory story and recycle it into some bullshit about a Holocaust.

>>33778313
>Zanzibar is the same as Zanzibarland

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>>33780989
I just love the butthurt it illicit.

>>33780817
Wehrmacht is an interwar term that came to be applied to the german armed forces only after hitlers rise to power friend. (For a while, it simply meant armed forces as in "american wehrmacht, russian wehrmacht" etc.)

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>>33778300
>Melelcholy of hamuem blahblabkha

>>33776853
Art. 23.

In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -

To employ poison or poisoned weapons;

To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

To declare that no quarter will be given;

To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;

To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;

To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;

To declare abolished, suspended, or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party. A belligerent is likewise forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war.

Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

Laws of War :
Declaration of St. Petersburg; November 29 1868

On the proposition of the Imperial Cabinet of Russia, an International Military Commission having assembled at St. Petersburg in order to examine into the expediency of forbidding the use of certain in times of war between civilized nations, and that Commission, having by common agreement fixed the technical limits at which the necessities of war ought to yield to the requirements of humanity, the undersigned are authorized by the orders of their Governments to declare as follows:

Considering that the progress of civilization should have the effect of alleviating as much as possible the calamities of war:

That the only legitimate object which States should endeavour to accomplish during war is to weaken the military forges of the enemy;

That for this purpose it is sufficient to disable the greatest possible number of men;

That this object would be exceeded by the employment of arms which uselessly aggravate the sufferings of disabled men, or render their death inevitable;

That the employment of such arms would, therefore, be contrary to the laws of humanity;

The Contracting Parties engage mutually to renounce, in case of war among themselves, the employment by their military or naval troops of any projectile of a weight below 400 grammes, which is either explosive or charged with fulminating or inflammable substances.

They will invite all the States which have not taken part in the deliberations of the International Military Commission assembled at St. Petersburg, by sending Delegates thereto, to accede to the present engagement.

On 19 September 1918, the Government of Switzerland, representing German interests in the United States, presented to the U.S. Secretary of State a cablegram received by the Swiss Foreign Office containing the following diplomatic protest by the Government of Germany:

“The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every [U.S.] prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life.

This protest is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention [sic] respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918.”

>>33782839

”[T]he . . . provision of the Hague convention, cited in the protest, does not . . . forbid the use of this . . . weapon . . . . [I]n view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, and in view of the well-known effects of its present use, and in the light of a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun . . . cannot be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest.

“The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army . . .

“[I]f the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the . . . United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the . . . United States to make such reprisals.”

World War I ended six weeks later, without reply by Germany to the United States response. There is no record of any subsequent capture by German forces of any U.S. soldier or marine armed with a shotgun or possessing shotgun ammunition, or of Germany carrying out its threat against the U.S. soldiers it captured earlier.

Why are the Germans such assmad hypocrites always?
>violate Belgian neutrality
>burn Belgium and execute civilians when they don't roll over to your demands
>invent strategic bombing of civilian targets
>invent flamethrowers
>first to use lethal poison gas
But nope shotguns are off limits

>>33776853
Whats the animu?

>>33783590
To be fair the entente/allies probably complained endlessly about minor things too.

Especially Italy, because minor equipment disputes completely explain the problems in the Isonzo.

>>33784563

The Saga of Tanya the Evil.

>>33776853
Unlike hollow point or explosive small arms ammunition, shotguns are not explicitly mentioned in the Hague convention, but the Germans were of the opinion that shotguns were cruel weapons that fell under the "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" clause.