Imagine a post-apocalyptic setting similar to that of the Walking

>>33757753
75 to 100 years probably, the only reason it makes since in some setting like fallout for ammo to be fairly plentiful is because of factions like the gun runners producing it still

Basically everything is easy except primer.

So yeah, better get an axe and start swinging.

>>33757753
There will still be people making ammo. During the war in my country people began making ammo and mortars in their garages, don't ever underestimate human ingenuity.

>>33757753
Our Great grandchildren would wonder the wastelands with plenty of Ammo. Stockpiles from military and Gov, plus all the civilian places that have ammo. Shit, DHS bought 1.6 billion rounds a few years back.

>>33757787
And primer just happens to be critical for modern firearms?

Would a regular modern-day gun enthusiast be able to nigger-rig up a sort of rifle you can just pour powder and shot into?

>>33757788
That's a local event, though. Primer and the like were still being produced elsewhere.

>>33757753
>The virus has destroyed all recorded human knowledge.
>All of the ammo factories, private ammo presses have been consumed by the virus.
>Everyone went full snack bar 24/7, firing billions of rounds in the air.
I'd say about a week.

I'm pretty sure there will be more weapons and ammo per person after the apocalyptic event than before the event.

People die, guns don't.

>>33757808
You mean blackpowder weapon, which requires mass formation to be effective?

>>33757833
I didn't say it would be particularly smart.

Pretty much any labor force can mass produce weaponry.

The thing that makes weaponry amazing is adherence to parts and tolerances for universal interchangeability and ammunition compatibility.


See- 1911, AR platform, AK platform, Glocks, etc.

This gives mass production an amazing advantage over weapons produced by individuals.

>>33757829
Any finite amount will run out at some point.

>>33757833

Snipers can use black powder effectively.

Even on old flintlocks.

Accuracy is achieved by eliminating variables. A homogeneous powder, identicical charges, identical balls, patches, and a ramrod with a lip so you pack the ball to the same spot every time, lead balls all made from the same ingot, etc etc

You can create a system that makes old school firearms just as accurate as modern ones.

>>33757753
>How long would it take for ammo to run out and become a rare treasure
There is a series of books called Firefox that catalogued traditional Appalachian living starting back in 1966, great read if you get the chance. One chapter talked about a guy that still made his own flintlock rifles for squirrel and deer hunting. Barrels, locks, stocks, everything was made in his workshop by hand. Jim Chambers still maks rifles out of his shop in Kentucky and offers classes on it and knifemaking. The way people have done for hundreds of years before mass production really caught on.
http://www.flintlocks.com/

Is this "modern" no, but it is a start. Keep in mind we've only been using smokeless powder cartridges for a little over a hundred years now. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody managed to make black powder cartridge guns, or just flint locks, in the event of a total loss of ammo.

>>33757859
I have doubt of these black powder snipers having enough suppression to keep down a mob with axes.

>>33757846

People still build fucking pyramids, dude.

As long as people exist they will create weaponry. We still have people that cast replica bronze age swords. Those civilizations have been gone for thousands of years. That's pretty much as post apocalyptic as you can imagine, and it still happens.

For all you know, humanity has access to Star Trek level technology and beyond but we were unfortunate enough to be born to an Amish-like group of humans. For all you know intergalactic peace has been achieved and war is actually done by roleplaying reenactors with too much time on their hands.


Seriously, consider how much about reality you actually know. What you don't know vastly outweighs what you do know.

Civilization always rebuilds, humanity always comes back.


We could have died a million years ago and we are in an ancestor simulation on an aliens computer.

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>>33757753
You can certainly manufacture a great deal of modern firearms, and with our advanced knowledge of ballistics it would be likely that whoever bothered to keep up the tradition of firearms, they'd either find a way to make more efficient 'musket' type firearms. The only major problem I could think of is determining loads and chamber pressures, but even then there are ways to do it without modern tech and there are tons of documentation on dimensions, tolerances and production means.

There would probably be some kind of split or "tribe" selling/manufacturing them.

>>33757864

A blunderbuss or two will indeed keep a mob at bay.

A few cops control a large population, after all.

I always look to the Louisiana floodings for wisdom. Evacuation started after nine days. Looting started withing two hours. In a major scenario, forget about looking up well known supply places like shops, gas station, police stations for weapons etc.They get looted right away, or even just shopped empty in a more polite society - hoarding means not just covering their own needs but also leverage in the time ahead. It takes more time to plunder apartements but if even 1% of the population survives the first intense lethal phase, there'll be thousands if not tens of thousands of people systematically looking for freebies.

>>33757882
This isn't about civilisation disappearing and never recovering.

It's about having to start over from basic subsistence farming after losing basically all modern industry and infrastructure.

>>33757887
Even those blunderbuss gotta have a bayonet or two.

>>33757864
Why would you put a sniper on riot control duity? That's silly.

>>33757908
Mob with axes is way over a riot, m8.

>>33757889

Looting occurs when thieves believe they can get away with it, and have a place to store or sell their stolen goods.

Look at natural disasters in Japan. Completely different.

If we suddenly had to go back to small scale local farming, we would. America has a surplus of food production.

We won't starve except from our own lunacy. Like eating paleo, only raw meat, vegetationism robbing you of nutrition, etc.

post apock is the new fad dying like zombies, turning white comic characters black, gay, woman,

space is the new hotness. Fuck your post apoc shit tier OP.

>>33757911
Either way it is a group of malcontents looking to fuck your shit up. Still doesn't change the fact that a sniper taking on a mob with axes, by himself, is silly. Or anybody for that matter. If he is than he is a dumbass for getting into that situation in the first place.

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>>33757864

>>33757937
So basically, you are a dumbass for protecting your property.

I would say a blackpowder revolver would be the best bet, no?

>>33757914

A surplus of food production, sure. And a heavy reliance on engine based machinery, artificial farming chemicals... of course there would be tens of thousands of little farms still running happily along. But those vast corn fields would be in big trouble for lack of harvesting and plowing machinery since the refined fuel for them would not be available by the thousands of gallons any more, and the pesticides to keep them unspoiled would not be there any more. You'd still feed millions. But a hundred million? Ten million?

>>33757944
>not forming a mob of your own with like minded neighbors to protect your properties during a societal collapse

>>33757930
Trends can eat a dick.

>>33757969
Yeah, who wouldn't, but it's not always possible.

>>33757753
its not the material or manufacturing thats difficult, its the knowledge of metals, mining, mass production, and chemistry, and since humanity will never have to learn those things from scratch ever again, there will never be a time when we can't mass produce something

>>33757992
Nonsense: the post.

You can't mass-produce shit if what little remains of the population needs to focus on more immediate needs like food and shelter.

Besides, knowledge can be lost.

>>33757864
In 1838 an army of 20 000 zulus (pretty close to your "mob with axes") attacked a group of less than 500 Boer trekkers armed with flintlocks.
3,000 dead later, the Zulu withdrew, having killed none of the Boer.

>>33758002
Except the boers didn't use flintlocks?

>>33757975
True. But lets say we go full 1762 and I'm some dude wearing buckskin with a black powder rifle on my own. I'm not going to put myself in a position where I have to take on a band of half naked axmen on my own unless I have a strongpoint and a couple of spare rifles laying around I can pre load. Even then I want an escape plan where I can turn tail and run into the hills.

>>33757833
there's already modern powder rifles retard. no need to worry

>>33757753
lol that's three monkies too many.

>>33757997
>retardation, the reply.

there is a core of knowledge, basic chemistry, mathmatics, material sciences, biology, medicine, etc that will never be able to be "lost" because its universally understood.

information isnt as easily lost in 2017 as it was in 1017. In adfition to mass education, there are now exabytes of information backed up in digital files and hard copy.

Its not like the visigoths are going to sack NYC, burn down the library, and we loose all knowledge of htt protocol, or how coal can be mined and used to make steam to push a fucking piston.

we have more knowledge of the world written down and rotting in any 1 landfill than existed for the entire beginning 2/3rds of human history

Only the extreme fringes of knowledge and unrecorded person history and experiences run the risk of being lost.

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>>33757859
Jack Hinson hit moving targets at distances of a quarter mile + in the Civil War with a custom made BP rifle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Hinson
>>33757864
Just have to kill the leadership. Morale is crucial in hand to hand combat.

It would take massive ground wars to deplete current ammo stockpiles
In post apocalyptic setting the problem will always be finding the ammo and storing it where it won't be stolen and destroyed. The groups that can do that(likely military remnants that knew where to look and use the original storage location as a base) will have a monopoly on repeating fire arms.
Black powder is not hard to make if you know where to get the reagents.
Charcoal, saltpeter, sulfur
Black powder is also relatively accurate, people still hunt with it. Formations were used so that you didn't have to waste resources to train your men to be marksmen.

>>33757753
Considering in a true post-apocalyptic setting the majority of the world's population is dead and gone, it would take decades if not centuries to shoot through the literally trillions of loaded rounds sitting in the various military and civilian warehouses.

I used to work in one of the two ASP's on Ft. Bragg. We had approximately 30 million rounds of JUST 5.56 in JUST my ASP.

Then when you consider all the already-made reloading components sitting in warehouses you have the capability to produce another couple tens of millions of rounds.

>>33757957
So...you're saying you expect some globe-spanning major disaster that completely and permanently wrecks ALL industry somehow won't outright kill a large percentage of the population?

There's around 300 million people in the US. 200 million of them live in major metro centers, where the majority of deaths would occur. Any SHTF bad enough to ruin industry worldwide will kill probably 50% of the US population outright, with another 50% of the survivors of that dying within the first season from inter-survivor violence, disease, starvation, suicide, or stupidity. This will leave us with less than 70 million people.

>>33758473
>US left with a total population of 70 Million or less.
Please, I can only get so erect. Jeffersonian Anarchy, here we come!

>>33758281
>that will never be able to be "lost" because its universally understood.
>Universally

Do you know how to make penicillin ?
I mean, could you, as of yourself, start producing it in your own house if needed ?

>>33758473

Sure, make it 70 million then. You still need to feed them. Mind if we assume that main sources of electrical power and vehicle fuel refining facilities are knocked out? That's going to affect the food production and distribution pretty badly. The amish guys and the small scale farmers will still be able to deal. The meat, dairy and field harvest production might not.

>>33758281
Ever watch The Time Machine?

>>33758640
The US population was 70 millions people at the beginning of the 20th century... when mecanization, pesticide and so on were far from being mainstream.

Heck, NY city alone had over 3 millions people and got most of its food supply from neighboring states.

>>33757864
>I can't shoot you all, alright. But I'll still shoot the first six of you who come too close.
>So who volunteers for the grave ?

>>33757753
I can make black powder, I can make charcoal, I can make salt peter, I don't necessarily need sulphur. I can knap a flint and I can make steel from ore. I'm a graduate engineer and have done all these things. I don't need much more. The situation you describe is probably even easier in many ways. It would take hundreds of years and that would probably overlap with people starting manufacturing simple firearms again. Remember that we've been making firearms for a long time, at least 1300 and probably earlier for incendiaries, rockets and grenades.

100 years after some catastrophic collapse vast vast quantities of sulphur, metal, saltpetre, timber/charcoal would still be available and probably a lot more explosives than you could imagine givem the size of military and industrial stokpiles. Many people today fire very very old firearms, including 19th century flintlocks and breechloading black powder weapons.

I'd say not alone would firearms still be around but firearms that could kill at 500 meters would still be around.

>>33758009
"Unlike the English (At Rorke's Drift) the Boers (at Blood River) had used slow firing, less accurate, and clumsy flintlock muskets..."
-Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power, by Victor Davis Hanson, p. 284

>>33757808
You could probably rig a flint striker and a fire hole in a bolt, yeadh but all you need for a pan and a firehole is a small hole in the barrel so why bother. Just seal the chamber with a breech plug and then create a firehole attach pan and you have an instant matchlock, bit more work a flintlock,

>>33758702

Ah yeah the good old days. Back when families had to share one pair of shoes and meds was whatever you could find growing nearby. How's tap water drinkability in your area, anyway?

Don't misunderstand though. I am not seeing the postapocalyptic frontier as an impossible place to survive. Personally I can pull back to an old farm of the family if it comes to that. But there's going to be a whole lot of less provisioned people around who won't be easily turned to farm hands. But they will have guns and they will have demands and they might have cops and military forces to back them up.

>>33758847
It's nice and good to have demands.
If they can back them with force, they'll get what they want.
Nobody has to die for this.

Now, look at the bigger picture :
You are an organization's leader.
You know there ain't going to be enough food for everyone until the first few famines are done trimming down the herd.
Luckily, you got guns and people willing to do whatever to stay alive and comfy.

You can kill the farmers, loot their stockpile and move on from farm to farm, absorbing casualties and going "we against the world" until your luck runs out.
Or you can go feudal-style and offer what's basically protection racket to local farmers in exchange for a share of their crops.
Heck, it doesn't even HAVE to be a racket if you actually provide the protection !!

Long term, that's how people would survive :
Organized groups banding together to work the fields and protect the crops.

> they will have demands and they might have cops and military forces to back them up.

Any half-smart CO would understand that, if the chain of command is broken at his level, it's in the best interest of him and his men to protect the people who can feed them long term.

>>33758598
Got any blue cheese handy? If so, probably.

>>33757753
I would imagine that it would be similar to The Road after a few years. The average person would probably deplete his ammo stores fairly quickly due to the fact that one would likely have to be mobile due to a lack of fundamental resources like food and potable water. You can buy tens of thousands of rounds of ammo, but if you don't have a car/truck to transport it you're limited to a combat load at best. You get ambushed on the road and that ammo is going to go fast.

>>33759085

Sure. As long as the leaders are wise. How many wise leaders in your county do you know? How many hours of back breaking work will you work for, say, some random guy in the local administration every day? What is his record on fair distribution of work and rewards? I know, some people will always want to be part of the herd no matter what happens at the end of the trek.

>>33758281
Pay attention. We're talking about some fictional apocalypse that kills the majority of the population and tears all of our infrastructure a new one.

People with actual knowledge are going to die and both digital and hardcopy information carriers are going to be left exposed to the elements while the survivors focus on not fucking dying.

>>33758734
>I can make black powder, I can make charcoal, I can make salt peter, I don't necessarily need sulphur. I can knap a flint and I can make steel from ore. I'm a graduate engineer and have done all these things.

Are you trying to argue that any Joe Nobody has the same skills? You might not survive the megarapeflu yourself.

>>33759873

Yeah, about that. Cell phone towers provide local coverage but the towers are vulnerable. In the past they have been knocked out by brownouts - batteries last only a little while and backup fuel generators are not part of the system - and fires, and of of course hurricanes and tornadoes. Also each local tower depends on other towers and main systems to function. The same/similar towers deliver 2/3/4g data communication.

Normal phone? Cables, servers, backup systems. Sure it works, until something big happens. Like too many people calling at the same time.

Satellite phone? There's no logical way for satellites to be knocked out unless you have space disasters of some kind, but even if you have a functioning sat phone you still need - afaik - an earth system to call other phones through.

So, all this wonderful information we have stored. Who are going to distribute it? And how?

>>33758640
You know how hard it is to raise cattle/pigs/goats/chickens/literally any animal you can get for food? Not fucking hard at all. You literally get 7 animals, and you can breed so that you never get inbreeding. 2 males, 5 females. 5 cattle extra/season, butcher 1 out of your now 12, you have 11, assuming you have 1 male because you butchered one, you have 3 males, 8 females, there's 8 more cattle the next year, wash rinse, repeat. All you need is a field and a fucking pond and you'll NEVER run out of food, unless you're braindead.

American authorities have now voiced "deep concern" over Turkish AF attacks on kurdish targets in Iraq and Syria.

Anyone else doubt Erdogan will have trouble sleeping tonight?

>>33757811
You can reload primers.

>>33759998

Woops. Sorry. wrong thread.

>>33759085
Exactly this. It's not hard to fix yourself up really well. I live near Amish, and could basically use them for slave labor, or force them to teach us how to make tools to build plows. Build a surplus of guns for yourself, your family, and maybe some close friends, set up the capability to scout up to 1sq mi on a regular basis, and all will be well with the world.

>>33757753
Where'd the extra 3 monkeys come from?

>>33759989

Sure thing. Now look at the streets outside your house. How many fellow farmers do you see, how many you will be feeding who won't be part of the worker group, and how many who you would not trust with watching your chicken? I realize the answer depends on where you live.

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>>33757753
>Even an expert in the fields of metallury and firearms wouldn't be able to produce a modern cartridge in his workshop without access to industrially-manufactured chemicals and materials, right?

as an expert in the fields of metallurgy and firearms i can tell you that its is possible it just not simple and it will be labor intensive

hardest part is making the brass casings and the primers
as the casings are a stamped part and the primers are still in development even now

>>33760039

Using the amish as slave labor. Heh.

Hehe.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAohgodsmyheart-

>>33760061
I guess I should take that into consideration. I have about 20 people that will be a part of my immediate farmer group/clan/alliance/whatever you want to call it. Between us, 15 regularly train firearms (shotgun, rifle, pistol). The same 15 have also had extensive experience in construction, farming, electrical tasks (small and large scale), electrical generation, and we also have about 12 large solar panels at our disposal. I think as long as you use your head, don't be a dumbass, and know how to sustain life, you should be good after the electricity goes out. I guess that goes over the head of most, maybe not you included.

>>33760085
I mean, point a gun at them, go 'Work for me, or we blow the brains out of your child, I tie you to a post, take you tools, and leave you to rot, or you, your children, and your children's children might get out of here alive.'

That would probably work in the short run.

>>33760178
For about 8 hours until Amish-guy's-11th-cousin brains you with a fucking wood maul because you had to personally oversee all the work and you were getting exhausted and didn't see him coming.

>>33760178
Then you'll end up with the only Amish insurgency ever recorded in human history. Congrats.

>>33760178

>heavy set dullard from 4chan squeals at an Amish man
>Gets beaten to death with clubs wielded by butter churning arms

>>33760213
>Short run (I am actually using the maul as a convoluted suicide method so gun suicide statistics don't go up)
I'd more than likely just force them to teach us how to make a set of farming tools, and send him back. It'd be much easier that way.

>>33760249
This is the only moment I wish I was a neckbeard with a fedora. Oh my. That'd be the best time of my life.

>>33760167

You have a good group there. Although I think you should consider how many in that group would expect their friends and relatives to be allowed into the stronghold. There is always an aunt with a big social circle, isn't there.

The solar panels are a good investment. I have little personal experience with them but I assume they will work for decades, right? What is the likely mileage on the batteries?

Farming is a good thing. Potatoes and cabbage would be obvious. For my part I dread the addition of farm animals because I have met too many farmers. In a crisis situation they would not be parting with stock animals for neither love not money, and are self sustained enough that there is little I could barter with that wouldn't be very costly.

>>33758598
Yes?

>>33760178

Okay, let me explain. An Amish does not own a cell phone. But he always has one or more friends who send and receive messages for him. And he might not own a gun. But he sure as hell know a friend with a gun. If all you know of Amish are what you see in the street om daytime, you don't know much about them.

>>33760284
That is about everyone. Fortunately, we are a VERY tight knit group and do most everything with only us. We'd probably form some sort of 'city council' sort of thing, and sort shit out in VERY short order.

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>>33760083
also

in general if some disaster hit and killed most of the people in this post-apocalyptic setting you are talking about then

>>33759873
>People with actual knowledge are going to die and both digital and hardcopy information carriers are going to be left exposed to the elements while the survivors focus on not fucking dying.

can you say survival of the fittest? the ones with knowledge of how things work are going to survive. you don't think the guy that can make fuel from corn and fix a tank is going to die that easily do you? or the guy that can keep a power plant going for a little while after this apocalyptic event and have an advantage over others of having power to run machines to make shit he needs? or the guy that knows just what's in a lot of the things he needs and how he can make it himself from things others have discarded?
just watch some MacGyver and tell me a guy like that is not going to survive

>>33760344

So what is your group's plan if shtf and groups of strangers arrive?

>>33760322
Like I said, probably would just make them teach us how to make hand tools (be it by paying or force), and tools good enough to last longer than 1 season.

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>>33759873
>digital and hardcopy information carriers are going to be left exposed to the elements

see show "Life After People" it will tell you a lot

>>33760392
Tell them to fuck off. I live in KS, so we can see for about 1mi or more in all directions, so they'd have to be pretty sneeki breeki if they want to just 'arrive'.

>>33757753
lurking

>>33760393

Treated with respect and offered reasonable barters, the Amish be an invaluable resource to any small rural society. I honestly don't know what happens if they are run ragged as a group. Actually, I have an idea - they have considerable resources laid aside which show up occasionally, as very expensive lawyers for instance.

>>33760403

You and your group would chase away a bus full of bingo ladies and kids, with a couple of cops in tow?

I am not being the devil's advocate, mind you. These are my own nightmares.

>>33760473
Do not underestimate these people. They may be pacifists who speak German and don't bathe often, but every male head of household is a wealthy businessman. They are wily in their dealings, mentally agile, skilled machinists and carpenters, experts in all things agriculture. Their community is far stronger than yours. The anon who says he'll enslave them will likely end up one of their tenant farmers because he was fooled by the facade. I can think of no better friends to have in a situation like this. Just trade labor for the tools and knowlege you seek. Ever worked for an Amish farm for a day? If you had you would know you never go away empty-handed. I've never had a better dinner in my life.

>>33760480
In that case, we tell the cops to lay down arms, give them some food, send them on their way. Tell them we will be fine, hopefully not with the thought in mind to return with more force. We'd inspect the bus, of course.

>>33760582

Let's, just for a moment, fit your unit into the third world, or maybe rather a town right on the border of a third world country. When shtf in your neighbor country, the refugees WILL be coming and they will refuse to go away because - in this scenario - there is nowhere else to go. How do you deal? Keep in mind that some minor govt entity might come along and demand you be part of the solution.

>>33759942
not that dude, but yes some people knowing how to do these things would survise.
and they would mostlikely pass on the art (art, not sience at that point) of making bang powder and how to stuff it down a tube

>>33760645
Never really have put any thought toward the whole scenario. I live on gravel, the closest pavement is a little over 2 mi away.

>>33760684

Yeah, that increases the long term survivability a hundredfold, provided you can remain isolated. I'll admit I am more worried about about the govt organizing refugee camps than about making it own my own. I don't want to be sitting on my backpack closely surrounded by a hundred thousand strangers, queing daily for the next food ration and for the porta-closet.

>>33760377
>survival of the fittest
Nice buzzword, faggot. How does a degree in engineering keep you from getting shot between the eyes by a damn near feral scavenger over a tin of baked beans? Hell, how does it even protect you from getting killed by random infection X?

>>33758009
That was the only technology avaliable at the time, lever actions and metallic cartidges did not exist


Percussion caps may have been used but they were still basically same thing, and its unlikely they had them there anyway

What these boers did was make a Kraal with their wagons, such that they had a barricade and covered every angle, and just shot down the zulus who had flat ground to cover / barricade to get over

>>33759968
Books and/or technology cults, think industrial monks who sell knowledge and/or machines/chemicals to warlords in exchange for food and raw materials

>>33761439

We already live in a rather interesting world, and some places are rather chaotic. We already do have a number of countries where warlords are vying for power. Somalia, Afghanistan, not sure what things are like in Liberia or Mali but it doesn't seem like places where knowledge is traded for anything.

Heh. I have my own little libraries. On harddrives of course, and on paper. I am glumly certain that the more advanced books will be of little use to me.

>>33761439
>We BoS now

>>33760846
I'd imagine that, given their limited resources, gummint would just skip over somebody who didn't want their "help". Is that one farm really worth losing 5 men and God knows how much ammo over? Those crazy hicks don't want anything to do with us, we don't want anything to do with them. Or maybe they would steamroll you and take casualties just for some cans of tomatoes and forcey fun time with your womenfolk, who knows.

I am sort of puzzled as to why noone has mentioned the obvious alternative yet - crossbows. Precise and require far less shooting skill than a bow, and can be built with simple tools - and we happen to be awash in cars, bicycles and other massive sources for spring steel and cogwheels.

>>33761692

Well, it is more like you risk being considered a rebel base. A threat to someone elses ambitions for controlling the region.

>>33761529

Thats because they have no use for it and less basis for it, also for much of the counties apart from the cities theyre places where technology was just a foreign blip, even in the cities they are stuck in the 1980s/90s but things havent collapsed enough there for them to be unable to sustain that.

Also they can still buy things they want from elsewhere, dont need to make it, never did.
Japanese trucks, Korean televisions, russian assault rifles and chinese made ammunition, Saudi petroleum and French generators, American steel and German concrete, British lightbulbs and italian sockets, tawianese clothes and Indian shoes.
Without the rest of the world they probably would just revert back to how they always have lived, due to lack of know-how and most of all lack of care and intelligence, especially in Africa.

More advanced countries however would probably see more Mad-Max /fallout/ warhammer style post-post apocalypse, with technological companies/cults and lots of individuals with the knowhow due to experience and surviving books

>>33757957

Doesn't most farm machinery run on diesel?

Diesels can burn pretty much any oil so long as the viscosity is close and its clean.

>>33757753
Anyone got some infographics about making your own ammo from nothing?

>>33757753
Honestly I imagine in a full on post apocalyptic society where the tools and knowledge to produce modern cartridge ammunition is lost, I could easily see flintlock rifles returning as the primary weapon, maybe swords as sidearms, with only big shots like clan and tribal leaders having cartridge guns.

>>33761720
Shut up Negan, I'll fuck your baseball bat while you watch. But in reality, I wonder (I am assuming gubmint collapsed completely without any capability of recovery) if military factions would even fuck about in the cuntry. Where I am, I can hardly imagine anyone would just show up one day. Especially after cars. Who wants to walk around in Buttfuck Egypt for days on end without any chance of being helped?

>>33761763

Back in the day I drove an army 6x6. It ran on diesel but the word was that in a pinch it could run on anything including butter. Someone managed to fill the tank of one of those beast with plane fuel 'by mistake' and it apparently went very fast very briefly before the engine folded. But those engines were from the late 60s. I don't know how well their modern versions work with alternative fuels today.

Bio fuels are in the wind these days though. Evidently you can run a modern car on ethanol for a while at least, and a still is as basic rural chemistry as it gets.

The trouble is that farm machinery isn't exactly fuel economic. There's a lot of muscle in use and the engines are thirsty. If you can get an oil jack to run day and night for you then this might not be a problem. If you need to make oil from plants it's a lot of effort and raw materials per gallon.

>>33761720
But then there are examples like Jones County in the Civil War (basis for some shitty racebait movie recently) where the risk was considered to exceed the reward of taking it by force, and they were left to fuck off.

>>33761836

What's a military faction? It's not the full firepower and armor they can posse up in a battle. Rather it is a couple of trucks with militias and a Humvee with a mounted .cal 50. They go around 'collecting and organizing' wherever they can find easy pickings, then take what they want. They don't do an assault if they are resisted. Instead they return later with more buddies. Go anywhere in say rural Africa or South America and the pattern is obvious.

>>33761879

This particular example I do not know. (Not American.) But the civil war was a very different setting. I think we should look more toward the modern war's methods and tools. And a setting of multiple powers vying for control, not just two.

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Bump with da'ish made 14,5mm sniper rifle

>>33761898
Humvee can't get through the perimeter. Now they're forced to dismount and infiltrate without the M2s supporting them (You did make sure your perimeter has vehicle barriers and that it doesn't allow line of sight into your compound, right?). Do they try to fight an offensive over unknown ground, or just fuck off up the road to the next settlement that didn't prepare a defense in depth? Just gotta tip the risk reward balance in your favor and be ready if it tips the other way.

>>33757753
>Walking Dead
Alright, I gotta ask because it's bugging me, what the fuck is the military doing in every zombie apocalypse show/movie/book?
Like, you usually have a group of a dozen or so rag tag civilians, over half of whom have never held guns in their lives, mowing down hundreds of zombies with perfect headshots and fucking swords, and yet somehow apparently the entire military was wiped out of existence? The fuck is this bullshit?

>>33761898
Exactly what I'm referring to. People that form a militia, more or less. And if they did meet us, and wanted to make trouble, since I know the land way better than they probably would, why don't we just make some IED's and blow the vic's to shit? If a bunch of Tuscan Raiders can disable military vehicles, surely I could at least break an axle or harm a tranny on bubba's f150.

>>33758009

Tell me, what other weapons existed at the time that a Dutch colonist dirt farmer in darkest Afrika would have access to? Needle guns from ~five years in the future? trapdoor rifles? surely you don't mean the Mauser.....in 1838....

>>33761999
Aiming for centre mass like a dumbass.

>>33761974

All of that is fine. If you have the manpower you can establish a perimeter and fend off a small force. If they are just a handful of rural gangsters that'll be enough - they won't have the manpower and they won't have the skills or motivation to take losses. They'll find an easier target elsewhere. An actual military unit, even if it just one officer and a few privates, will recon and then return with more force. Even if they don't want your stuff or need your workforce, you will still be a hostile position right there on THEIR perimeter.

>>33761939
You are not American, so you wouldn't be familiar with any of the action behind the lines (most Americans aren't either.) You had Regular cavalry, Partisan Rangers, Bushwhackers, bands of deserters, and outlaws (ranked in order of legitimacy) all roaming the Southern countryside and taking from those who couldn't defend themselves. Loyalties of the lower groups were fickle and nominal, they were starving and would steal from anyone they could. Why wouldn't we talk about the closest example to a total breakdown of society in the American heartland? According to the OP, we would find ourselves with Victorian era transportation and modern man/horse portable arms within a couple of years anyway. Read Jack Hinsons War if you are interested in the guerilla side of the US Civil War, it was never truly a two sided affair once the lines moved forward.

>>33761999

Stories need heroes. But the part of the missing military makes kinda sense. They have these camps and stations and places with lots of uniformed staff - and their civilian families often lives right there in the forts. Going in and out all the time. So with a virus or a similar factor, these closely living big units of people are very vulnerable first to being infected, then to spread within the unit.

There are small units too. Supply dumps, whatever. What will the staff do in a crisis? They'll say Fuck Lot 666, I am going home to check on the kids.

If there are any military units you can think of that would be impervious to that, let me know.

>>33762083

I have heard stories of some of the raids into Southern territories. Not nice stories. But I have been on the impression that these raids were fairly small and fairly quick, hence the term raid?

>>33762067
How large is their (the hugely reduced military) perimeter going to be? Gasoline is on its way out. Air cover is gone. No sat imagery. Comms are greatly reduced. The US is FUCKHUGE. If you end up near a military position, yeah you are right, there's going to be friction. Depending on how well you chose the geography of your compound, you will probably end up in some forgotten backwater that never sees a motivated military patrol.

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>>33761974
This is what you're ACTUALLY looking at. House is the base where we will be. We live in the middle of a 1 mi stretch of road between roads. House is a 2 story home with 360 degrees of vision, which could easily be fortified in the case of shtf. This is approximate scaling obviously. A mounted/unmounted assault on this would be VERY difficult. We could see the dust coming off the road from ~1mi away, and unless it rained that morning, or you're going about 2mi/hr, there will be dust.

>>33762161
It was a Northern occupation of the South from day one. As Ken Burns said, "The Civil War was fought in a million places." Hell, there was a battle off of the coast of France.

>>33757833

It does not. The issue of accuracy with black powder is the same as it is now: It is people missing on purpose. The Prussian army did tests that very conclusively found at the ranges armies were first engaging, the battle should be over because everyone should be dead in the first couple salvos. Turns out, just as in modern militaries, most soldiers were purposefully not aiming at the enemy.

>>33762189
Hedgerows, stone walls, earthworks, earthen/ timber bunkers, razor wire all over the fucking place near the perimeter. Once they get through that, open shooting lanes from your strongpoints. Hell, we won't even like taking Afghan compounds without getting CAS to hit them; take away air power and a decent defense stands a good chance to be left to its own devices.
>Make them have to assualt by limiting their view inside
>Make them dismount by placing anti vehicle barriers (trees and wire fencing)
>Make them split up (prickly scrub, razor wire, traps, maze like undergrowth, ditches)

>>33760085
amish are redneck jews. always remember that.

>>33762173

The military is probably stockpiling more fuel than most. And they likely won't need their heavy armored vehicles lie tanks, unless there has been a split into multiple heavy faction or a foreign power has started 'peacekeeping'. However they may have had to share fuel with civilian govt units like Agriculture. Either way I think it will be quite a while before the military forces run out of fuel - they have the force to take more, while there is someone to take it from.

Anyway, a base perimeter is one thing. The real line in the sand goes where the other factions stop showing up.

>>33761702
came here to post this, a crossbow made of modern materials almost seems more practical than a black power gun, I have fired pencils and sticks out of hand crossbows and pipes out of larger ones

>>33757753

It wouldn't. Simply because everyone would realize how absolutely necessary it is and would set about making it by any means possible. You telling me some warlord is going to waste his time fucking around with spears when all he has to do is set up a machine shop and enslave some chemists?

You telling me some capitalist entrepreneur won't see the massive market for firearms and invest everything?

Not everyone who tries has to succeed, only one. But there'd be a lot more than one.

This isn't some secret philospher's stone dead end alchemist pipedream, it's known chemical formulas with known ingredients and means of production, the tools to make it untouched and just waiting to be used.

Even regressing to blackpowder is unrealistic. Conquistadors managed to produce their own upon landing in the new world. Literally a couple hundred Spaniards surrounded by enemies with no knowledge of the terrain, no equipment to produce gunpowder, all they knew was the ingredients and recipe. And they did it just fine.

This is ignoring that such a technological and social collapse is fucktarded to begin with anyway. The worst that would ever be realistic would be some sort of fucked up balkanization.

>>33762195
The raids were by Southern cavalry into Maryland and Tenesse/ Kentucky usually. They would cross the lines, wreak havoc, kidnap officers, burn supplies, and steal horses. Jubal Early once invaded Pennsylvania, kicked ass in Maryland northwest of Baltimore, besieged DC, nearly killed Ol' Dishonest Abe, was beaten back to Virginia, and had his whole army crushed by Union cavalry who then burned the entire Shenandoah Valley during an 1864 campaign. They won't teach you that in school.

>>33762308
doesn't gasoline go bad after like 6 months? One of the biggest fallacies in post apocalyptic media I would think.

>>33762189

It looks nice. But last time I handled a .50 M2 the range was what, 3 miles?

Anyway, I am operating under different circumstance. Small remote rural farm and at best I will have a handful of relatives with me, none of whom can be relied on in an armed situation if it happens tomorrow. It will be more a question of lying low, not drawing attention, and hopefully deal with intruders from a concealed position.

Anyone know how to make primers or percussion caps?

>>33762356

An Abrams can run off of pretty much anything that is combustible. Gasoline, diesel, alcohol, jet fuel, vegetable crap, kerosene, whale oil, it doesn't give a fuck.

>>33762298

So? I respect Amish, rednecks, and jews. That does not mean I count on either to come to my aid in a situation. I handle shit myself or I fall. And I hope the day don't come where that get truly tested - but if it does, I will have tried to prepare.

>>33762370
I'm not concerned about an m2 really. I also forgot to mention that there are a few hills and run down shacks that we could get to and use a suppressed 300blk from to effectively hit the road. But I would probably just use sandbags on the top floor up to the windows and shoot out the windows.

>>33762324

Take a look at Mad Max 2. It is an insane movie but they have a number of guard crossbows in use. I am sure I saw one of them with a chain winch attached, which totally makes sense.

It's not that a crossbow is better than a gun. But I can make a crossbow that hits something, and with force, from a distance. I am not convinced I can make a gun that does the same. And unlike a bow I won't have to practice for a decade to hit something further away than my foot.

>>33762422

>not concerned about an m2
>one of the most common mounted weapons in the history of man
You should be.

Further what are you going to do when a USMC warlord just sets up artillery and your house is gone from a single shot 10 miles away? What do you do when they use superior numbers to keep you pinned down while they burn the house down? What if they have even just a single recoil-less rifle?

The obvious solution is not to live in a fixed residence and instead become a steppe nomad, and instead terrorize the sedentary people into giving you tribute.

>>33762356

I may be linguistically challenged here. You mean petrol, for normal cars with catalysators? Or the diesel stuff that goes into tractors and trucks? "Going bad" iirc in the latter case refers to it reacting to the air, eventually affecting the chemical balance enough to make it less efficient. Something like that.

>>33762496

Have to disagree there. For one thing - there's millions of houses out there. A warlord is not going to target them all. Better to camouflage the position, and if you have to fight make it look like the fire is coming from elsewhere.

Also, becoming a steppe raider only makes sense if the locals can't call for protection and if you have a position to fall back to. The apache made this work. But they were also defeated.

https://youtu.be/kconhr6aVG0

>>33762341
You lack imagination. Reduce the global population by 95% suddenly and see how many people need to start focusing on either farming or foraging full-time.

Balkanisation, my ass.

>All this take of flintlock guns
So... Would a full out SHTF scenario pretty much just regress us to fur-trade era America at the very worst?

>>33762496
I'm more worried about Bubba getting an ar and thinking he's Billy badass because he shot 300rds pre shtf. I highly doubt we'll get a platoon of marines through here, and if we do, why the fuck don't we have them join us. Obviously capable bodies, weapons to the teeth, and we have food.

>>33760249
>anon magdumps into one Amish guy
>his son shoots anon from a window with his daddy's bolt action hunting rifle.

>>33762642
Would you trust them around your daughters?

>>33762630

>Reduce the global population by 95%
>have magic happen, then it's possible!
Well, that just makes the surviving thing easier since there's enough canned food to last that 5% decades. And enough ammo to last them forever.

>>33762670

Heh. How long do you think canned food will last before the contents go bad, and how much of the canned stuff in the stores have actual nutritional value?

>>33762670
It's the post-apocalypse. Of course the cause is going to be fantastical.

Almost as fantastical as your
>hurr durr complete stasis nothing ever degrades
bullshit.

>>33757753
this is like the biggest problem i have with apoc. style stuff like this. it's like we forgot engineers, ham radio enthusiasts, machinists, ect. exist. would people really forget there own jobs so quickly? that's the real question.
>Even an expert in the fields of metallury and firearms wouldn't be able to produce a modern cartridge in his workshop without access to industrially-manufactured chemicals and materials, right?
any machinist will have three things that make making firearms relatively easy.
1. a lathe
2. a copy of "pocket ref"
3. a shitload of steel, brass, and aluminum.
IIRC there was a site somewhere where a guy detailed making his own cartridges in his home shop. the only real problem, actually, with firearms making in a home shop, is that most people don't have drills long enough to make a barrel, and don't know how to make rifling.
TLDR: it's pretty easy with basic machine and engineering knowledge.

>>33757787
>everything is easy except primer

Armstrong's mixture would suffice.

>>33762308
You just aren't grasping how large the rural parts of this country are. Wasting limited fuel and manpower resources on scouring the countryside with high risk patrols to kill every recalcitrant farmer because they might be a "rebel" is psychopathic. Who's running this shitshow, Col. Kurtz? We never even rooted out every livestock fucker that shot at us in Afghanistan, entire might of ISAF at our disposal, and patrols would still take shots from the same area and the same guy every time they went out. What happens when the whole continent is Indian country? You leave the wire, you're trying to get back as soon as possible without catching one of Bubba's .30-06 to the throat. Now you are tasked with going forty miles out to shake down a farm because they are "a threat to our (non existant and very porous) perimeter". You're going to motor on down to the nearest bunny ranch, fuck all your ration cards away, come back when you're sobered up and say
>Uh, yeah Captain, we scouted that farm, the fuckers cleared out weeks ago, didn't leave a thing for us to loot.

>>33762713

> How long do you think canned food will last before the contents go bad
Longer than 10 years.
>how much of the canned stuff in the stores have actual nutritional value
tuna and vegetables all day erryday

>>33762722
Well considering how that's how human history has worked since the dawn of time, yeah, I'd say so. The biggest collapse we ever had was the fall of the Roman Empire, and that is largely misrepresented.

The problem is once knowledge exists it doesn't go away. You know how many libraries are in the US? More than McDonalds, and there's one of those like every five miles. Each one has more than enough knowledge to keep civilization on track.

Post apocalyptic fiction is fiction. It is far less possible than most other types of fiction.

>>33757893
What i get out of what he said is we will always engineer the weapons we need/have. In the off chance that somehow all knowledge of modern weaponry disappears we'll still come back to that same point as a civilization.

>>33762733

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twwQbpwZz9w

This guy built a dead simple rifling rig.

>>33762655
I don't know them rn, but probably not at first, and after I make sure they're not actual bona-fide crayon eaters, and are decent humans, why not? Regardless, you could always kill them while they're sleeping after they get comfortable.

>>33762733

Engineers are wonderful people. I am one. But my ability to run a server is going to be of fairly limited use without a steady supply of power to keep them and the cooling systems going. The machinists are going to have great fun without amped electricity for their machines. Ham radios went out of use for a reason.

We will need all the skilled people we can get hold of, mind you. Provided they can do something useful like fixing engines or remove appendiixes or repair a trawler's winch. Most of us however, and our skills with html, might end up being handed a shovel.

So word gets out that Eddie the Engineer is making his own guns and ammo. He's not cranking them out like an assembly line, but still. Dude's a living, breathing ammo supply.

Willy the warlord, Ollie the outlaw and Barney the badass catch wind of Eddie's little project. Their ammo is running low, what with them playing at being raiders. Still, they have some ammo left, and they're feeling a bit brazen. Why not pay Eddie a visit and use what little ammo they have left to 'convince' him to hash out some kind of exclusive deal?

Except every fuckhead in the vicinity has had that idea and Eddie gets torn to shreds in the clusterfuck that ensues.

>>33762789

In theory, a can could last 30-40 years. I have eaten 25 year old military canned rations and they were ok. It was however also a ham and bean stew crammed with fat. Your off the shelf can with beans in sauce might not be that sturdy; more important a closer look will reveal that it is almost 50% sauce. Canned tomatoes? Hurray for the vitamins but that can is mostly filled with water. And so on. Ham? Where's all this oil and water coming from? Corn? Don't get me started. All I am saying is that if you are going to live on cans, you are in trouble.

>>33762889
I knew of these Jewish twins that used to go to Scouts in a neighboring troop. They would make explosives and set them off innamountains. They moved to DC suburbs when they were in high school, apparently they kept up the chemistry experiments, because Spic gangs were trying to recruit them to build bombs for them. That story has been repeated to me by people from DC area with no knowledge of who they were. They are like thr Cohen brothers of IEDs.

>>33762889
If Somalia is any indicator, there's not going to be parity in opposing forces. The asshole with the biggest tribe is going to saunter over, make Eddie sign the old silver-or-lead contract, and piss all over everything so everyone knows he's selling the ammo now.

>>33762889

This is why arguing with you NEETs is so troublesome. You always isolate people into individuals. People form societies. In reality, it's quite likely Eddie is part of a community. A well armed one thanks to his efforts. They kill the shit out of Willy, Ollie, and Barney, because humans naturally band together for mutual defense.

Or Eddie dies horribly and his friends get raped to death and sold into slavery. Then Willy the Warlord gets his shit pushed in by Steve, the sociopathic businessman turned frontier statesman, because his momma read him the story about the goose that laid the golden eggs and he knew damn well it was better to keep his local ammo and gun maker alive and well than to kill him for a couple rounds. Also because Willy the warlord has about the mental faculties of the average gas station robber, judging by his actions.

>>33762912

I have no doubt it would suck absolute ass. It would also work though. It's not ideal, but what about "95% of the population are dead" is going to be ideal? People have lived off of worse food.

>>33757753
>the Skinwalking Dead
>skinwalkers roam the streets stealin' bodies n shiet
>only defense against them is munitions treated with white ash, fired from weapons that have seen battle
>everybody and their Nam/WWII vet grandpa's M14s, M16s, M1s and bringback AKs, SKSs, nuggets, Arisakas and Mausers and old service 1911s shooting up skinwalkers' shit
I need it.

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I'll shill this book since it's relevant to the thread. Small Upstate NY valley deals with a US that has entirely localized after a catastrophic war that resulted in the destruction of most oil supplies, nukes in DC and LA, the military being trapped in the ME, etc. It's pretty cozy in spite of all this.

>>33763023
Most hashed out representation of (some of) the US in a state of Jeffersonian Anarchy I have encountered yet.

>>33757808
>Would a regular modern-day gun enthusiast be able to nigger-rig up a sort of rifle you can just pour powder and shot into?
>>33757833
>You mean blackpowder weapon, which requires mass formation to be effective?
>>33760039
>Exactly this. It's not hard to fix yourself up really well. I live near Amish, and could basically use them for slave labor, or force them to teach us how to make tools to build plows. Build a surplus of guns for yourself, your family, and maybe some close friends, set up the capability to scout up to 1sq mi on a regular basis, and all will be well with the world.
>>33760085
>Using the amish as slave labor. Heh.
>Hehe.
>BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAohgodsmyheart-
>>33760178
>I mean, point a gun at them, go 'Work for me, or we blow the brains out of your child, I tie you to a post, take you tools, and leave you to rot, or you, your children, and your children's children might get out of here alive.'
>That would probably work in the short run.
>>>>>33761323
>Nice buzzword, faggot. How does a degree in engineering keep you from getting shot between the eyes by a damn near feral scavenger over a tin of baked beans? Hell, how does it even protect you from getting killed by random infection X?

>Post apocalypse thread(le wut if le fallout 4 wuz real lyfe guiz)
>Edgekids who want to talk guns without understanding basic principles of firearms operation
>edgekids who want to authoritatively describe how an apocalypse would effect technology without even a basic understanding of that technology
>edgekids immediately launching into detailed edgy fantasies about shooting Amish kids in the head and get upvotes and fedora tips from the other edgekids
>edgekids aggressively arguing against the adults explaining why a their edgy fallout fantasies won't happen because because in their minds it's the only way they'll escape being that fat kid who drinks Monster when he's thirsty and pays girls for playing vidya on YouTube

Afternoon /k/ on weekday, sad.

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Jack Hinson had no trouble using a black powder rifle at extreme ranges anon in guerilla conditions anon, why do you?

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>>33763212
>tfw none of my posts made onto the Green Monster

>>33763342
Nigger, I already posted Capt. Jack in this thread.
F'real, though, I'm just glad someone else in this open sewer is aware of this real human being and real hero.

Fo3aBest

>>33757753
>Even an expert in the fields of metallury and firearms wouldn't be able to produce a modern cartridge in his workshop without access to industrially-manufactured chemicals and materials, right?
are you a liberal OP?

anyone with a lathe can make metallic cartridges

in an extreme case single or multishot matchlock firearms using sulphurless blackpowder (causes higher ignition temp but ironically no smoke) with traditional rifling and a breechloading mechanism would become the norm of post teotwawki. or things like bolt action needle rifles if percussion caps are producible

but there are literally more guns and a several magnitudes more cartridges than our current population, let alone a 50-70-90% die off.

Motherfucking Am I gonna just have to figure out how to retroactively fit ours guns with a piezioelecteic weapon bases ignition source, or is someone gonna steal my idea because it makes sense? I don't even care, just fucking stop doing stupid shit.

We can make all the parts of a modern metallic cartridge with monkey tools, except for the primer.

So just get rid of primers.

Now figure out the best way to electrically touch off the SEALED cartridges powder.

I think having simply thinner metal at the appropriate area would make it relatively easier for a charge to pass through compared to the surrounding material. Use that as your channel, or funnel even, for the electric charge.

Of course, we could use bimetal casings, but then it isn't a casing you can easily make anymore.

Fucking steal my fucking idea! I don't care! Just stop being so stupid.

>>33767634
The electric charge could either come from a wound spring, like the earliest "semi auto" revolver I know of OR EVEN BETTER, from pulling the trigger.

We don't need alot of energy.

Side cool note - a battery (chemical, mechanical or otherwise) would allow for a trigger of any weight you want, or a button.
Soooo, you could have no movement from "pulling the trigger" which would be advantageous to some people. I don't really give a fuck about this part, but I know some people Only see this advantage.

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>>33757753
You can make black powder easily harvesting corpses and finding some sulfur (it's a very common mineral) and it highlights a lot. We would probably go back to black powder weapons, except high tech settlements full of engineers.

Also shotguns shells are easy as fuck to made, you just need paper, powder and some metal or even rock fragments to use as fragmentation shot.

>>33767902
Probably some (actual) explosive would become fairly mainstream. Like England and Cordite during WWII. BP is for true loners.

>>33767914
>fragmentation shot

>>33768113
That was supposed to say WWI but I think they used cordite in a lot of munitions in II too.

>>33757753
Better question: how to make sure that the breakdown is permanent?

I would modify marine organisms so they are resistant to modern anti-fouling techniques. No oceanic shipping = no modern civilization.

Bonus points if you modify marine organisms to break down plastic faster. You could probably modify terrestrial organisms to do the same.

No plastic, no oceanic shipping = permanent pre-WWII civilization at best.

>>33768133
Story idea: dress it up as scifags trying to figure out how to thoroughly dispose of the trash scattered throughout the ocean.