If you don't have the confidence to make fast, effective

>>33707409
But my MVP doesn't have irons...
Hey zed.

>>33707466
You get a pass.
BUT YOU BETTER NOT HAVE AN AR MISTER!

>>33707409
To confidently hit targets with irons at 200+ yards, it takes a lot of ammo and somewhere where you can actually shoot at that distance. Most people on here, like most Americans, live in an urban or suburban setting where this ain't gonna happen. When you first start out, you are likely to miss a whole lot, especially without a spotter feeding you corrections. Full power rifle ammo ain't too cheap.
When I shot at 250 yards, I did it illegally in a state forest using surplus x54r through a Mosin shooting at garbage. I was a lucky poorfag. Western anons can shoot wherever the fuck they please, but you need a friend with a farm if you're in other parts of the country.

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>>33707482
I have an ar tho?

>>33707484
So... You assume everyone is in as shit of a situation as you are? If you can't go out shooting often or can't afford it; firearms are the wrong hobby for you.

>>33707484
That's still no excuse for using optics as a crutch. Even if the only gun range near you has nothing but 25 meter bays, you best be using irons at that distance.

Only an autistic faggot would further handicap himself by only shooting with an optic.

>>33707509
>carry handle aperture rear
>M7 bayo
This is clearly someone in possession of a Man Card.

>>33707512
I agree with you. Optics have their place though.

>>33707509
Shut up nigger, I trapshoot twice a week.
Way to ignore the whole part about ranges with more than 100+ yards being very hard to find.

>>33707484
Sadly true. I live in Indiana and I've gone shooting not at a range no more than 3 times in my life

>>33707409
>waaaaaaaahhh not everyone is a cranky old fudd like me
>watch me call people faggots while wearing a trip for no reason other than ego stroking
Fuck off old man. I've seen video of competent shooters shooting the same course of fire with both. It does speed you up and make it easier to acquire targets. Reports from US military action with ACOGs confirm this, particularly in Fallujah.

Iron sights suck. They were an acceptable solution back in the day when optics couldn't be made cheap and durable enough for military use, but that has changed now.

>>33707409
Tell us about what it was like before they had vaccines and food refrigeration, Uncle Zed. Regale us with your tales of eating nothing but beans six days a week from the Great Depression.

>>33707409
250 yards isn't even that far unless you are terribly inexperienced.
When starting, I can clank highly visible 13-14in targets at 400 pretty reliably with ak style irons, standing. It drops off fast though as I get fatigued if I keep standing.
I have scopes, but don't use them too often. They certainly make it easier because it's easy to cover your target with the irons and lose your bearings while aiming. Scope reticules don't ever block your view too bad.

>>33707544
Way to angreypost before reading a thread and then look dumb
see: >>33707512

>>33707512
I own one optic, a .22 straight tube I found at a homeless camp. Never bothered to mount it to anything. Scopes are for old men with bad eyes. Knowing your Kentucky windage for 250 yards cold bore is going to be a matter of trial and error if you only shot at 100 or less. Not a shot I would take hunting, not without any practice.

>>33707562
>It does speed you up and make it easier to acquire targets. Reports from US military action with ACOGs confirm this, particularly in Fallujah.

Another autist with reading comprehension issues. READ the original post:
>even then the speed gain you get is only seen in the kinds of shooting you will never, ever do.

Wait, how does an optic act as a crutch? What does an optic let me do that irons wouldn't, short of making small things look bigger?

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>>33707544
You trapshoot with optics? What?
>>33707521
Aw yeah, gratification.
>>33707628
It's increasing your ability without teaching you anything. What will you do if your scope breaks? Use the irons that are completely foreign to you?
I can't tell you how many ars I've seen with 16" barrels with two foot long scopes for 'cqb' and 'sniping'

>>33707607
No I read that, it's just bullshit.

I shoot 2 gun, which rarely goes past 300 meters. Optics really do improve speed and precision and it shows on the scoreboard.

>>33707628
It's not a crutch, OP is just an angry old man.

Irons will obscure a large part of your field of view. Optics dont.

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>>33707628
>short of making small things look bigger?
Jesus Tittyfucking Christ.

>>33707667
>rarely shoot past 300
>whole premise of the thread is shooting what you consider your maximum without the ability boosting effects of an optic and zoom
Whelp. It's like you just admitted you have no skills as a shooter and instead are competent with something that gives you a major advantage...

>>33707662
> It's increasing your ability without teaching you anything.

But how? Breath control still exists. Sight picture still exists. Consistent cheek weld still exists. Wobble must still be compensated for.

How does the scope make me a better shooter, barring magnification?

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>>33707409
A similar argument was probably made for switching from revolvers to hi-cap mags

>>33707409
You are the very definition of a Fudd

>>33707672
If I wear my glasses, does that still count as cheating?

>>33707662
Yeah, 1.5 x with an improved choke. Really helps me reach out for those pigeons that don't level off until they're far off

>>33707691
Hence the crutch of magnification. You would need breath control, picture sighting, good stance and 'compensation' for wobble even though we just talked about all these things that would minimalize 'wobble'.
The optic makes you a better shooter because you can be shitty at all of this, but the added zoom and ability to actively see these things happening teaches you nothing.

>>33707704
Do your glasses have 3-12x zooming abilities. Or even 1.5.
>>33707710
For 50 yard trap shooting. It's like you're compensating for lack of ability or something. Someone should make a thread about that. And here we are.

>>33707712
Guess what Elmer. Not all optics are magnified

>>33707726
Besides a 1 for 1 red dot, please go on.

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>>33707667
>reads things that directly and obviously refute him
>"BAWW, ITS BULLSHIT!!"
>shades of numale SJW mentality when confronted and shown to be wrong.

See what I mean about the autism?

Lol I'm too poor for optics

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>>33707724
>For 50 yard trap shooting. It's like you're compensating for lack of ability or something. Someone should make a thread about that. And here we are.

>>33707724
I trap shoot with a Savage 1899 .22 HP takedown that has a .410 conversion barrel and I drilled and tapped it so I could mount a rail that would hold my Aimpoint.

>>33707738
>does the same thing he accuses me of
>thinks him just asserting something refutes anything
>reduced to nothing but overused ad homs within 2 replies
Yeah that's about the quality of discourse I'd expect from a tripfag

>>33707712
And the movement from the unstable firing position is going to be magnified as well. Slapping a fixed 4x on top isn't going to turn you into Superman.

>>33707512
I completely agree with you, but for the majority of firearms owners, it's a hobby, and people with money to blow like to spend money on their hobby.

>>33707409
>If you don't have the confidence to make fast, effective shots out to 250 yards without an optic, you ain't shit.
I can make literally no shots without an optic of some sort because I wear glasses. :^)

>>33707778
Sure but you can also deal with it and interpret it easier. Its a crutch.

>>33707724
>Or even 1.5?

Technically yeah. 20/30 vision. (That math might not be right.)

But if it's just magnification that bugs you, any problem with just using the 1x on a low power optic?

>>33707821
How does using a magnified optic fix your breathing, or dampen movement? I've shot both ways my whole life and a low power optic does jack shit for my groups up close.

Where are you guys getting these magical scopes? I want one.

>>33707821
> You can deal with it easier. It's a crutch.

For real bro, that's why I close my eyes and echo locate targets with high pitched autistic screeching. Relying on vision is for poofs.

>m16a1
>M72 rpk
>psak
>no.4mk2 Enfield
>finn/Russian nuggets
Man, I just realized that I don't own a single rifle with non-iron sights
Sure wish I could go to a range longer than 100 meters

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>>33707787
Well yeah, I mean, every hobby has those kind of plebs....
Golf course: guy with a $800 driver, can't hit the ball
Highway: YouTube "idiot supercar crashes", and get some popcorn
Running trail: guy in head-to-toe Nike or Under Armor, can't run 5 miles.
...and so on.

I just see it all the time at the Shooting range: Guy has $1200 rifle with $1900 worth of optics on it, and I'm in the next lane out-shooting him with pic related.

Never fails to make me smile.

>>33707910
Where's the rear sight on that rifle? Or is that the joke?

ITT: OP finds ways to justify to himself the fact that he's too poor to afford even a bargain-bin optic.

>>33707871
I legit lol'd.

>>33707946
They're on the barrel, near the edge of the stump.

Zed, you know it's coming, right? Eventually rifles are just going to come with some dinky solar powered flip up red dot that will probably be just as sturdy as a slip of iron with a knotch in it. Hell, Henry just put out a lever in .308 without irons.

Eventually it will just be a thing we do that our grandkids won't understand.

My eyes are not great, if I use the small peep sight I have trouble seeing the target, the larger one doesn't feel very accurate, now I have a red dot

>>33708050
Peep sites are the shit though. >>33708007
Feels like Quigley Down Under.

Come to think of it, did people bitch when people starting using those over the old notch-and-post?

>tfw mtf tranny
>too weak to pull back the slide on semiautos so I have to use revolvers
>can stay within the target at 100 yards with a x4 optic
>would probably miss everything at 250 yards with an x4
>recoil from .308 hurts
do i get a pass for being a failed male

>>33708081
Fudds always bitch when new technology comes along.

>>33707409

You can shoot for days and weeks off and on for many years, and you will never shoot better than me, Zed.

You're inferior to me in every way, ya tripcuck.

>>33707910
>100m match at range
>Take then new ruger american in .22lr for shigs with dinky leaf rear and fibre optic front
>feed eley match
>Place fourth out of ~25 in rimfire class, beat out mega spender with a anschutz and decent sized Leupold on top

I still don't know if I had a really good day or everyone else had a really bad day.

I don't think I could repeat it though.

>>33707724
I have 20/40 vision, so it's more than 1.5x faggot. Sage.

>>33708101

You can kill yourself for being broken.

>>33708101
> too weak to pull back the slide on semiautos
> failed male

I've seen city girls pull that off. You're probably holding it wrong.

Step forward with your off foot, bring the gun to your chest, hold the slide with your off hand, and push the gun past it with your strong arm. Don't forget to step forward or you'll flag the next person down the lane.

>>33708161
Oh, I tried holding the slide like you said and pushing the gun and it's a lot easier. Thank you! This whole time I was trying to get a grip on the slide and pull it back.

>>33707512
Only an autistic faggot would get so triggered at someone's preference of target acquisition hardware.