So when are the Russians going to field this thing? They've

>>33696639
The Russian one is legit. The Chinese ones are just 4th gen with 5th gen visual. Just like when you buy a Nike or Iphone replica from China, they just look like Nike shoes or Apple Iphones, but functionally they're very basic and cheap.

>>33696639

They have been announcing that it will be operational "next year" for half a decade now.

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>>33696639
According to Russia? In the next couple of years.

Realistically? I'll be surprised if they ever field more than a squadron of them. Russia's in really bad shape in terms of long-term strategy, and it's increasingly looking like they won't be able to keep up with the next generation of hardware.

As for China, they're coming from the opposite end of the spectrum that Russia is. The Chinese have the resources to produce competitive modern fighters, but they've lacked the industrial base and expertise until very recently. They've been working on maturing their industry since the '70s, and they're slowly catching up.

For reference, China had to cancel development of what amounted to a frankenstein of parts from a MiG-23 and F-111 because domestic industry couldn't make electronics as small as they needed. They're past that roadblock, and the next big one for them seems to be engine development and metallurgy.

>>33696639
Russians are masters of the "r-ready any d-day now, p-promise" development.
Zircron, PAK-FA, S-500, R-77ME, you name it, they have tons of weapons that are just around the corner, or so they claim.
They have these in """development""" to be wheeled out when confronted with how inferior the russian military is so the shillbots can claim that russia will be powerful and important again, "any day now".

>>33696639
>Shit even China already designed, tested and prepared 2 fifth-gen products in less than half the same time period
Because they didn't need to do any kind of research since they got everything from the US and Israel. They don't even make their engines yet.
Russians were less lucky and had to design their shit themselves.

>>33697481
>Israel

What?

>>33697241
Will be sad the day the world finally admits that Russia has become an irrelevant junior state.

>>33697507
Isreal apparently sold American equipment to questionable people, which led to China with things they shouldn't have.

Dunno the truth of the matter, but considering the Jews. I don't doubt it.

>>33697530
I'm more worried about how they'll behave once they're at that tipping point right before they slip into irrelevence. They very well may try to aggressively exert their influence over their interests while they still have a chance.

>>33696639
>Shit even China already designed, tested and prepared 2 fifth-gen products in less than half the same time period

The J20 and J31 aren't true fifth gen planes m8

>>33697610
Neither is the PAK-FA.

>>33697507
The Israeli government sold the avionics out of current-gen US fighters (including the F-22) to a private investment firm headquartered in Beijing directly against the wishes/contract of the US gov. Said private investment firm then immediately sold it to the Chinese government, something the Israelis knew 100% would happen.

>>33697550
I'm just worried about the nuclear arsenal.

>>33697742
What's your proof? Or are you simply shitposting?

>>33697761
How did the Israelis have access to F22 avionics in the first place?

Russia has no $$$ due to their god-awful economy right now. They're putting on a strong show for the cameras but new tech is going to be very slowly introduced, if at all

>>33699013
Not exactly /k/ related, but what's the social situation right now in Russia is the government really is that broke?

>>33697761
proofs?

>>33699032
There's some discontent but as always Russians will put up with an inept government if they feel like they're "showing the western dogs" a thing or two.

>>33699032
>is the government really is that broke

*if the government really is that broke

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>>33697241
>and it's increasingly looking like they won't be able to keep up with the next generation of hardware.
Do you not see a fundamental flaw in your statement here though?
Technology doesn't win wars. It helps, but look at either afghanistan, iraq 2, panama, hell even go back to vietnam and korea etc and you see that USA and the rest of the modern world has failed to grasp the new direction of warfare.

War has always been about supremacy, one group or aspect dominates, then opponents adapt to the new and find ways to defeat it.
The west doesn't seem to grasp that the new gen of war isn't really about tech or even standing armies for the majority of the time - its about irregular warfare.
From AK armed ideological guerrillas through to cyber warfare with a side of economic, demographic, and legal warfare.

>As for China, they're coming from the opposite end of the spectrum that Russia is. The Chinese have the resources to produce competitive modern fighters, but they've lacked the industrial base and expertise until very recently.

You have it backwards. Russia has the resources, China doesn't. Thats why China has started imperialism/colonialism 2.0 in africa and elsewhere.
Russia is the 2nd largest exporter of oil in the world and they've invested vast amounts of energy and money into getting a monopoly on oil transportation, and not just pipelines, but ports and processing facilities too. Just look at the US infrastructure; it relies on the petrodollar, thats why you fought Iraq both times, why Libya fell, and peripherally why Syria is happening. USA's biggest vulnerability is the petrodollar, and China and Russia have gone after that instead of wasting money they can't afford in a tech race again.

Technologically, both aren't as far ahead as USA and the west, but they aren't anywhere near as backward as people think they are. They're actually miles ahead in several areas respectively.

>>33699162
>muh gorilla warfare
World powers can't rely on insurgencies to win wars. All of those conflicts you referenced forget one thing - the "winners" of the conflict suffered massively disproportionate losses and only "won" in that the powers they were fighting stopped slapping their shit and left.

Being a world power requires conventional military might - you can't rely on asymmetric warfare to achieve your foreign policy goals. And before you start memeing about the Ukraine, the threat of Russian military might backing up the rebels is part of what's keeping the conflict low intensity as it is right now.

And in that respect, Russia's failing to keep up. 1991 demonstrated that technological superiority is way more important than anyone realized in a conventional conflict. And while their current generation of hardware is keeping up, they're suffering from a demographic crisis and brain-drain within the defense industry that's going to make it very difficult to keep their next generation of hardware competitive with the West and even China.

>muh oil
Russia's looming demographic crises and talent dying off within their aerospace firms is what I'm referring to. They have the industrial base and expertise right now to build competitive equipment, but they don't have the resources to sustain their defense industry in such a way to keep it competitive. China, on the other hand, has the financial resources and market to sustain a competitive industry, but they've been struggling for decades to gather the expertise and industrial base necessary. They still lag behind, but they've got far more resources to invest in staying competitive than Russia does.

>>33696639
china is flush with american dollars. they're our slave class, after all. russia has no such luxury. when the house of saud pumped oil with reckless abandon to wipe out the frackers, they also fucked russia but nobody cares because, well, its russia.

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>>33696639
In fact, this is so sad.

I remember back in 90s I had american illustrated magazine about current state of soviet, and when russian military.

And they showed off all kind of crazy stuff, like Su-37, YaK-141, lazer tanks, gigant missile cruisers and so on.

And then it suddenly all gone in matter of few years.

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>>33699377
>World powers can't rely on insurgencies to win wars.
That's another assumption from a western pov that isn't true to the world at large.

I don't want to argue about killcounts and shit, people usually over or under-exaggerate the effectiveness of guerrilla warfare.
But say vietnam, US aim was to stop communism - US lost home support eventually and vietnam went red.
Look at Iraq 2.0 - we were "bringing democracy", that worked out well.

Clausewitz talked about war being politics by other means, right?
So we immediately think that means governments in the west. But politics is in everything; Islam is a political ideology as much as a religion, but it isn't a single nation or government is it?
The inability of the west to get a grip on how to defeat non-state actor groups only reinforces their effectiveness to others, which begets more of the same.
4th gen warfare isn't nukes or conventional armies fighting because that isn't effective. Insurgencies, propaganda, economics and demographics are effective.

In conventional wars you are right, tech has a big role. It's a force multiplier, but its flawed. China showed that in Korea by zerging the US who dominated the air. Or look at Van Riper more recently.
You see, modern wars aren't conventional. People realise they can't face the USA conventionally. So they avoid you, its fucking Sun Tzu 101 ffs.
Tech helps, but if you''re focused on the tech dick measuring contest, you miss the actual damn war.

>1991
what in 1991?
USSR collapsing? Or did you mean Gulf War 1?

>Russia talent dying
>resources
Resources is non-manpower related shit though senpai, you mean personnel.
I don't know about this to argue.

>China
you're misunderstanding this though. They have industrial base, but no quality or non-financial resources. They're in trouble now as they struggle to adapt to modern industry with standards from a cheap almost AnCap start-point.

>>33699667
>Or look at Van Riper more recently.
>your credibility: 0

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>>33699667
>all this memeing about gorilla warfare
Asymmetric warfare only hurts the ability of other powers to project their power on you. It doesn't allow you to project power abroad, which is what marks someone as a great power in the first place. Let's take your Vietnam example. The insurgency in Vietnam only managed to convince the US to pull out of the region. It didn't cause the South to collapse - that was a conventional military invasion that accomplished that. And in Iraq, the US achieved its initial objective, just massively failed in the post-game, leading to an insurgency. We ousted Saddam and installed a regime friendly to the US.

Also
>citing van riper
Are you retarded or just a contrarian jackass?

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>>33699802
>>33699830
>Van Riper
It was just the first example of tech having flaws in a real oppositional circumstance thats more modern than korea.

I don't get what either of your problems are with it though.
I only read the articles, can you explain what is wrong with him?

>Asymmetric warfare only hurts the ability of other powers to project their power on you. It doesn't allow you to project power abroad

>Great power
You're talking about future wars but using terms like Great Power. USA enjoys its position right now largely down to petrodollars creating vast demand for the us dollar which also conveniently allows you to print more money without rampant inflation. China, Iran, and Russia have been focusing a lot of energy at targeting that, and right now the US petrodollar system is vulnerable. All that artificial monetary value being pulled all at once would crash the US like the fucking USSR, though I imagine a bit less dramatically due to diversified assets.
Economics is a part of modern warfare, its why Obama used sanctions on Russia for example.

>Vietnam
You're missing the point.
The war was lost because the Commies weren't fighting a conventional war, but were focused on a game of propaganda. The US only went into vietnam to STOP the commies taking it. Commies used farmers with aks and shit covered bamboo spikes to convince a "Great Power" to pull out, doesn't that stress the point that tech advantage means little versus strategy?

>Iraq
>won battle but lost war
how is that helping your argument that tech advantage matters?
For the record, I don't think tech should be ignored, it helps keep our guys alive longer. But the obsession with it blinds us to the bits that matter.
Also, installing a foreign regime that can't support itself without massive foreign help is a failing too, its a fundamental misunderstanding of the region.
Boyd's OODA loop even warns about interpreting shit through your own cultural lens that could have avoided that.

>>33699802
Can I get a rundown of how van Riper fucked up MC '02? All I can find when I google him is meme-tier websites peddling his bullshit

>>33698968
Assumingly we either sold or gave it to them. Greatest ally and whatnot.

>>33699973
>>Iraq
>>won battle but lost war
When the fuck did I ever say that? Iraq became such a clusterfuck thanks to a policy failure right after the war officially ended. They disbanded the entire Iraqi army all at once, and suddenly one of the largest armies in the world was now a bunch of unemployed men with guns and military expertise in a nascent state with a lot of brewing tensions.

>>33699973
>Economics is a part of modern warfare
The economic component of warfare has been a thing since colonial times.

>>33699973
Economics is a part of modern warfare
Economics has been a MAJOR part of warfare dating all the way back to the first time 2 groups of dudes threw pointy sticks at each other. It's nothing new.

And Russia has been sanctioned by someone pretty much its entire existence, dating all the way back to before the tsarist regimes. Levies, taxes, tariffs, etc. all levied by a separate country.

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>>33700006
>When the fuck did I ever say that?
>the US achieved its initial objective, just massively failed in the post-game, leading to an insurgency.
>initial objective

Gulf war 1 was cited as brilliant because they got the fuck out when they achieved their objectives.
But to be fair, Gulf war 2 had the vaguest objectives and murky justification as it was. Its a recurring problem we still have today because we're hamstringed by political correctness+necessity (gotta get those voter demographics!), legally, and because we aren't grasping that the wars we fight aren't conventional any more. Technically if you go over history there's a shit ton of irregular wars that get largely ignored, because they don't fit in with our clausewitzian understanding of war between states.

>baathists
You're right there. That's not a success in my book. We dominate the fuck out of everyone in the conventional setting. But thats made people AVOID doing that in favour of fighting us unconventionally. But we focus on funding new superjets that will never see combat because our enemies will just avoid us and beat us by other means.
Its straight out of sun tzu. Hows that for memeing!
But look at The Quranic Concept of War for a more contemporary understanding.

>>33700031
>>33700049
>colonial times
Before then even.
It's just clearer now, and more weaponised. Since industrialisation it became much more effective, and with modern economies, even more so.

Cicero - money is the sinew of war
It's a vulnerability, and a weapon.
I'm not misunderstanding that, I'm arguing it's a part of "4th gen warfare".

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>>33700129
>4th gen warfare
William Lind pls go and stay go

>>33700149
>focusing on a phrase
I agree its a fucking dumb phrase.
Its propaganda memeing at best, commercial sales pitch at worst.
But its stuck with the vast majority of /k/ types and gvt agencies, and is a convenient term to describe the changes in warfare since ww2, which is useful when you have a 2000 character limit.

Focusing on the "paradigm" or whatever and not the argument is pretty much a staple of the far left though. Are you a commie?

Seriously though, what else do you call it?
Irregular Warfare, unconventional warfare, 4th gen warfare, or some bullshit obscure thing?
It's not the same warfare as ww2, where states predominantly fight other states...

>>33696639

It turns out you need money to create a large amount of 5th gen fighters, even after designing them. A bit of a shame really: Russia probably has lots of potentially great designs that will never see the light of day due to their tight budget.

>>33699627
Communism works wonders only for military.

Russia is hopelessly corrupt, economically screwed, and technologically backward.

And that HIV epidemic is really going to decimate their general population, with the way Russia is botching the handling of it.

>>33700556
>HIV epidemic

hasn't this been disproven?

>>33701620
proofs?

>>33697507
the fucking kikes sell us out every chance they get

jews gonna jew

>>33700049
guns is just as good as butter though. or did you fail econ 101.

>>33701645
>>33701620

Disproven by fucking WHOM? If anything, the epidemic is likely much worse than known (given Russia's love of secrecy).

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/28/world/europe/russia-hiv-epidemic.html

>>33701712

Seriously, it's not hard to find articles on this.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/22/russias-silent-hiv-epidemic-fskn-krokodil-aids-public-health-putin/

>>33697241
>MiG-23 and F-111 because domestic industry couldn't make electronics as small as they needed.
dosen't china have computer factories?

US developes the first 5th gen aircraft. Russia tries to build one of their own but is way behind.
> But wait.
Suddenly a Chinese 5th gen appears.
> But how.
Israel. They sold it to the Chinese.
> But why
A Chinese 5th gen means everyone in SA will have to step up. There is serious shekels to be made.
> But who
India

>>33702588
>India
Does it come with shit warheads and poop drops?

>>33702451
They do, but in the '70 when they were trying to make that, their factories weren't able to miniaturize electronics very well. Something about clean rooms or something like that last I read.

>>33696639
Never. Pure vaporware and Russia is Africa tier poor.

>>33696639

It has already been funded. It's not an oddity for military projects to last years and decades. The only question is: How many will they produce?

Military budgets and economies don't work that way.

>>33699377
>demographic crisis

No, they aren't.

What can you expect from a nation that has their GDP being outmatched by fucking Mexico

>>33697143
>>33697241
>>33697279
>Russians are masters of the "r-ready any d-day now, p-promise" development.
>>33700556
>>33702999

you faggots really need to put this "declined Russia" meme to a rest.

>>33698968
They didn't. What the Israelis did sell was patriot missiles in the early 90's and miniature refrigeration technology used to maintain electro-optical equipment more recently. Their defense minister or somebody was forced to resign because of it. Will be interested to see if they give the Chinese a peak at the f35.

>>33699996
Is full of shit. Israel never had f22's. No one except the us does.

>>33699377
>Russia's looming demographic crises and talent dying off within their aerospace firms is what I'm referring to.
Which has little effect on the overall "smart fractions" who power up these institutions. Senior academicians and engineers and specialists dying may seem bad, but its not when they have trained hundreds of cohorts before they do kick the bucket. These young people, armed with knowledge and experience of their seniors also get to play around with modern knowledge and practices and buildup experience. How the hell do you think the Russians managed to develop new stuff using modern design and manufacturing technology- they retrained all those old people from the SU?
>They have the industrial base and expertise right now to build competitive equipment, but they don't have the resources to sustain their defense industry in such a way to keep it competitive.
Uh, they do. Hence why they are on a multi-hundred billion dollar rearmament spree for quite some time now. They also heavily piggyback on export customers. For instance the development of the excellent Pantsir was fully kickstarted by the UAE/
>China, on the other hand, has the financial resources and market to sustain a competitive industry, but they've been struggling for decades to gather the expertise and industrial base necessary. They still lag behind, but they've got far more resources to invest in staying competitive than Russia does.
That's now how tech development works.

>And in that respect, Russia's failing to keep up. 1991 demonstrated that technological superiority is way more important than anyone realized in a conventional conflict. And while their current generation of hardware is keeping up, they're suffering from a demographic crisis and brain-drain within the defense industry that's going to make it very difficult to keep their next generation of hardware competitive with the West and even China.
1999 demonstrated that its the man, not the machine that makes the weapon.

>>33696639

>So when are the Russians going to field this thing?

Sell it to India and whoever else is willing to buy it.

>>33703618
So China?

>>33703148
It's good when people expect nothing of you because it's much easier to impress. All of WW2 was like this.

>>33698968
it wasn't the F-22, it was a newer F-16

>>33703325
Equipment and training are massive force multipliers. War doesn't go to who wants it more, it goes to who is better prepared and equipped.

Russian capabilities are greatly reduced. They can no longer exploit oilfields vital to their economy without outsider's support and technology.

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>tfw we will never get the mig 1.44

>>33697241
>and the next big one for them seems to be engine development and metallurgy.

IMO this is going to be a big issue for them, especially metallurgy. It's not that they lack the engineering know-how either, but that it's going to be a nightmare trying to get Chinese subcontractors to reliably make stuff that's up to par. Those fucks will put more effort into fooling QC inspectors than they will into just making products right, and that's a huge problem when it comes to shit like compressor fan blades.

>>33704701
>Canards

>>33697132

Except PAK has RCS of 4.5 gen planes. It's not real 5 gen either.

>>33706222
You don't even know what the RCS of the PAK FA is.

>>33706381

They are officially aiming for 0.1 frontal.

That's a fucking joke.

>>33704757
That's been the issue they've had for a while - it's pretty easy to get people who know how to do things, but it's a whole different story getting your factories up to the standards you need.

>>33696639
They're not. They're developing the PAK-FA for R/D purposes and buying Flankers and other shit that they actually need. When they can actually output decent next gen aircraft, they'll buy it.

>>33700247
Sure it is.

You think Iraq is still fighting the us? Nope. Iraqi government is gone, 100% destroyed, the political party is removed, and it is never coming back.

The insurgency was not Saddams grand evil mastermind plan, it was random opportunists in the area who were able to capitalize on the local power vacume.

To argue that Russia/china will win due to insurgency is retarded. The current government (aka, what china and russia "is") would 100% lose, nuke or conventional.

>>33697550
>I'm more worried about how they'll behave once they're at that tipping point right before they slip into irrelevence. They very well may try to aggressively exert their influence over their interests while they still have a chance.
Yeah, they'll probably go and invade Crimea or something.

>>33707383
By the time they can produce "next gen" aircraft, they will be legacy aircraft.

>>33703148
But russia IS a rotted carcass of a dead empire.
The sooner they stop pretend that they are significant the faster they can rebuild some dignity.

>>33706411
They are officially aiming for "RCS comparable to F-22, namely about 0.1 square meters". The only joke here is your belief in 0.000000000001m2 RCS.

>>33707395
You can't invade something you have already been in for hundreds of years.

>>33707419
Ahhh, the rcs kid is back.

Still triggered the f-22 has an RCS of .5 DGU?

>>33707442
>Fatnik manchild calling anyone a kid
Lol.

>>33707602
The designer himself stated that the F-22 has an average RCS half that of the PAK FA.


I think he was being generous to the PAK FA, especially considering that there's no way he knows F-22 RCS figures.

>>33707664
Where did he say that?

>>33707602
Yep, kid is still triggered as fuck.

>>33707429
Hey Vatnik, how's the weather today.

>>33703085
They are. Russia's population is a couple of hundred million than it should be for a country of that size and climate. They're suffering alcohol problems (1/3rd of Russians were drunk when they died in the year 2000) as well as mad shit like Krokodil ravaging their population, which is still 1/3rd of the USA's size. The Russian manpower meme is no longer valid due to long term problems (eg successive generations of leadership seeing vodka as a blunt hammer for population control).

Not to mention their GDP is lower than FUCKING CANADA. That's just disgraceful for a semi-European country of 124 million.

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>>33707866
*a couple of hundred million lower than it should be

have a maymay to compensate

>>33707866
>Russia's population is a couple of hundred million than it should be for a country of that size and climate
No, it is not.
>1/3rd of Russians were drunk when they died in the year 2000
The year 2000 was 17 years ago.
>as well as mad shit like Krokodil ravaging their population
Which is used by junkies who are already beyond any salvation. It's funny how you bring this up though, since it has been emerging in the US for what, like a decade by now?
>which is still 1/3rd of the USA's size
No, it is not.
>The Russian manpower meme is no longer valid
Manpower is not a meme and it is generally not that much of a valid factor since the introduction of the triad.
>(eg successive generations of leadership seeing vodka as a blunt hammer for population control)
More like amerishit scum implementing their amerishit puppets to genocide Russian population and dissolve the country. Russia did not have demographic problems until amerishit "democracy" was implemented by a bunch of criminals.
>Not to mention their GDP is lower than FUCKING CANADA
No, it is not. It is slightly lower than that of Germany.
>That's just disgraceful for a semi-European country
There's nothing "semi-" about it.
>of 124 million.
Of 146.8 million.

>>33697610
Because I say it!

>>33708180
>The year 2000 was 17 years ago.
It reflects deep and endemic problems in Russian society which are still nowhere near being solved, and will almost certainly affect Russia's military strength and ability

>Which is used by junkies who are already beyond any salvation. It's funny how you bring this up though, since it has been emerging in the US for what, like a decade by now?
So you admit that an entire section of your otherwise useful population has been rendered unusable due to Russia's inability to even limit the spread of such substances? Krokodil has been largely contained by the US whereas it's effectively unchecked in large swathes of Russia, and it's compromising the population from within

>>which is still 1/3rd of the USA's size
>No, it is not
Russian population: ~145 million
US population: ~350 million

>No, it is not. [Russian GDP] is slightly lower than that of Germany.

German GDP: 3.5 trillion USD
Canada GDP: 1.55 Trillion USD
Russian GDP: 1.267 trillion USD

Russian GDP is 1/3rd of German GDP in real terms. I'm guessing you chose PPP in order to artificially inflate Russia's figures but that's a useless measure when it comes to comparing economic strength

>More like amerishit scum implementing their amerishit puppets to genocide Russian population and dissolve the country. Russia did not have demographic problems until amerishit "democracy" was implemented by a bunch of criminals.

Shouldn't have fucked up in 1917 then Vladimir. You could have had a liberal democracy but you pissed it away. Even the Eternal Kraut managed it eventually.

Lack of industry, know how and no market left.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-05/korea-s-high-tech-economy-threatened-by-chinese-catch-up

That's the reason why China has 5gen aircraft and Russia doesn't.

>>33708471
>It reflects deep and endemic problems in Russian society
17 years old figures only reflect your desire to shitpost.
>Russian population: ~145 million
>US population: ~350 million
146.8 million and 324.7 million respectively. Which is nowhere near the coefficient you claimed, only further reflecting your desire to shitpost.
>Russian GDP is 95% of German GDP
Ftfy. I'm guessing you chose US dollar equivalent in order to artificially deflate Russia's figures but that's a useless measure when it comes to comparing economic strength.
>Shouldn't have fucked up in 1917
Shouldn't have fucked up in 1991 then, Eugene. You could have had a democratic ally but you pissed it away. Enjoy your eternal geopolitical clusterfuck and brainwashed population for another handful of decades.

>>33708731
Compare GDP per capita of Russia to European countries and you'll see how fucking stupid you sound.

>Russia doesn't have a lower GDP than Germany!
but it does
>It's unfair that the US has more people!!
Life isn't fair, anon.

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>>33707399
>By the time they can produce "next gen" aircraft, they will be legacy aircraft.

>>33708421
They are nothing more than intelligently dressed up Gen 4+ machines. All of you in here talking down to Russians and worshipping the PLA need to realize that they are still getting engine design help from Russians.

>>33708471
>ou could have had a liberal democracy
yuk. fuck off.

>>33697241
that plane actually looks kinda cool

>>33710137
You only repeat your baseless claim

>>33708731
>Shouldn't have fucked up in 1991
I'm fairly certain that the event is called the collapse of the Soviet Union, not the collapse of the USA
>You could have had a democratic ally but you pissed it away.
>Any single SSR in the Soviet Union
>Democratic
>Russia SFSR
>Democratic

I'm not even sure who's memeing whom anymore in this thread

>>33712568
I think he's actually trying to blame the US for post-Soviet Russia becoming a shitshow instead of turning into a real democracy.

>>33696639
In 4 years they'll enter service, they'll build a tenth of the original planned lot, declare it a total success, then quietly start another new wunderwaffle program that'll have similar end results and fuel the Web Brigades' shitposting another decade.

>>33713221
top kek

>>33699667
>I don't want to argue about killcounts and shit
But in the ultimate shit hits the geopolitical fan scenario that's exactly what matters.

At the end of WW2 Allied and Soviet leaders were seriously worried about insurgency campaigns waged on indefinitely by the Germans and Japanese, as there were powerful factions in both nations that sought to do exactly that. As it turned out literally murderfucking Prussia out of existence and atomizing Japanese cities could put a stop to anyone pulling that shit.

In the post WW2 era US campaigns failed to pacify the countries we successfully invaded because we really had no good reason to fully brutalize them. Iraq and Afganistan didn't pose an existential threat, so it would have looked pretty bad in the UN if we just fucking leveled Fallujah for instance. In the case of Korea, we left the Chinese bases that were keeping their forces from starving to death alone for the simple reason that we didn't consider Korea worth starting WW3 over.

Vietnam is the only example where your argument holds any water. The US military failed miserably at establishing a truly effective COIN strategy and kept marching around the jungle hoping for the VC to give up. Even then we only left and gave up when we decided that the whining hippies may have a point about spending American lives in some god-forsaken jungle.

Asymmetrical warfare certainly has a role in the modern battlefield (See Ukraine Mossading Novorossiyan leaders), and I think we're both in agreement in that the US needs to get better at opposing it. However, you're mistaken in believing that it can ever truly win against a technologically and tactically superior force. If shit really got bad enough between the US and another group, the US's gloves would come off and that group would be forced to choose between unconditional surrender or having their Wikipedia page feature Carthage under the See Also section.

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>>33697241
>a frankenstein of parts from a MiG-23 and F-111
>A MiG-23 and F-111 had sex and this was the result

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burgers, this is getting pathetic

yes the US government took your parents' tax dollars and started mass-producing unfinished prototypes

doesn't mean the Russians have to follow suit, in fact this type of shit is what got the USSR into trouble

they're saying they'll start producing them soon, but even then the Su50 will end up being a niche fighter, whilst the Su35 remains the king of the skies

anyways, pretty hilarious seeing virginbois trying to play down Russia's role in the world, when only a couple weeks back the Russians went and jammed the fuck out of burger tomahawks to the point that half of them didn't even get to the target L M A O

WHEN has another country stood up to burgerboi threats as much as Russia? The answer is never, and the fact that burgerbois are HELPLESS against Russia doing whatever the fuck they want, I think it rubs the "patriotic" ones the wrong way.

coupled with the fact that their armed forces are actually capable

>>33715176
The first half of your post was so promising

>>33710137
You're dumb. Stop fucking posting.

>>33710137

> he doesn't know about the half-chink microdicks that plague /k/

they get to be patriotic about the US and chinkland both

>>33709812
>Russia doesn't have a lower GDP than Germany!
Where did I imply this, shitposting clown?
>It's unfair that the US has more people!!
Where did I imply this, shitposting clown?
>Compare GDP per capita
Why? No one argued European productivity is more efficient. Russia has more than 60 million more people than Germany, yet their GDP is 95% of German GDP.
>>33712588
>Lies, amerishits didn't influence the alcoholic fuck and totally had nothing to do with 1996 presidential elections
Enjoy your Putin messing up all your geopolitics now.

>>33697761
You're full of shit.

>>33715176
Lel, a vatnik must be really buttblasted to write that much bullshit, that or he's getting paid by text lenght rather than the usual per post basis.
The fact that the US could land 58 missiles on a base guarded by russia did cause a massive triggering of vatniks tho.

Also
>Su35 remains the king of the skies
>PESA
>king
Even a Gripen E would rape the shit out of that garbage can.

resgxfjht

>>33715252
This. A lot of angry Chinamen ITT

>>33715197
>>33715304
You need to stop responding to bait.

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>>33715176

>pretty hilarious seeing virginbois trying to play down Russia's role in the world.

Russia's role in the world is to slowly decline into irrelevance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW4I2fPPXFM

>>33715668
>bait
It is very possible that it's bait but we do have our fair share of vatniks, slavboos and /pol/tards who write those things in earnest.
Sometimes you can trigger them into the most delicious vodka fueled rage of anal anguish by pointing out the various aspects of russian inferiority.