Every conversion about hunting rifle cartridges: >Use enough

>>33684507
Maybe bc there are wildly huge variables in rifle cartridge ballistics but much less so in short barreled handguns?

Probably why there is a shortage of anti tank pistols.

>>33684520
>wildly huge variables in rifle cartridge ballistics
Not for the civilian hunting market. People argue endlessly about "Is [insert cartridge] enough for [insert game animal]," but the animals seldom know the difference.

>>33684598
Holy fuck you are dumb.

>No big difference between 17hmr and 375h&h

Every conversation about 22lr:
>It bounces around!

>>33684507
one animal fights back the other runs away

>>33684605
You carry a 375 H&H?

>>33684615
That wasn't your question you dumb goalpost moving fuck face.

>>33684622
quote "defensive handgun cartridges"

>>33684636
"Animals seldom know the difference"

Good luck stopping a charging hippo with 22lr.

>>33684507
I've never heard anyone using .22 outside of shooting chipmunk and small garden animals that eat everything. Never even seen anyone use it on a rabbit

>>33684645
If you're using a handgun you're going to carry it around.

What is the smallest lightest .375 H&H goy?

>>33684652
It works well on rabbits.

>>33684605
Those are extreme ends of the spectrum, and both of them are uncommon. All common centerfire hunting cartridges 6mm and up do the same job.

>>33684609
Do people really believe that?

>>33684614
That's the point. When shooting the animal that fights back, LOGIC dictates that you should pack the most powerful weapon you can, but 9mm remains the most popular defensive handgun round on the market. I'm not trying to start another 9mm vs. 45 argument. I'm just questioning the logic behind choices people make.

>>33684645
>picks an example so extreme and unlikely that you'd literally have to travel to another continent for it to be relevant.

>>33684660
This is one of the most pointless and idiotic threads I have seen on /k/ in a long time.

Fuck you op. Delete this thread and ask your question in a non retarded manner.

>>33684660
Yeah surprisingly retards actually believe in the whole 22lr will bounce around shit.

Just go start a zombie thread or any survival thread and ask what caliber would they use for this situation and 80 fucking percent on this pathetic board will choose a fucking 22lr and not anything else THAT CAN ACTUALLY KILL A MAN IN A RELIABLE KILL SHOT AND BE ABLE TO RELOAD AMMO AND ESPECIALLY BE ABLE TO KILL BIGGER ANIMALS IN SELF DEFENSE OR WHATEVER!

>>33684780
I fucking blame max brookes for starting that illogical made up bullshit about the 22lr would bounce around bullshit.

Let's not forgot how that cunt made two fucking books that glorified that tiny ass round and practically shit on any other calibers that wasn't a 22lr.

>>33684507
Because animals are generally much tougher then humans. You still have to properly place your shots, but you need enough force to actually make it count. Not to mention there's all the other variables that come into choosing a fudd round like flight path, velocity, cost, etc.

>but how come it doesn't apply to humans
Because the difference between most defensive handgun rounds- generally 9mm and up- is negligible due to humans not being that tough. Shot placement counts for a lot more than what what ammo you're using.

Also you're a retard for needing this explained.

>>33684819
that's all a bunch of nonsense. the very definition of "stopping power" was born because of the huge statistical outliers in humans wound tolerating capacity.

if you would want a human stopped as surely as a wild boar you would need to use the same round.

>>33684805
Max brooks recommended 30 carbine.

>>33684841
>stopping power is a thing
Why are you even posting here?

Not to mention that hunting isn't generally worried about mag capacity. Or are you one of those "don't need more then 7 rounds because I'll never miss" retards?

>You should use the same round for hogs that you would for humans.
Find me a defensive pistol chambered in .223 or up that doesn't have unmanageable recoil and more than one round capacity.

Handguns and rifles do not compare to one another. OP, what you're doing is pointless, autistic theorycrafting in the face of 300 years of small arms usage statistics. And those statistics say handguns suck, period, at killing people. It doesn't matter what it's firing. Paramedics routinely get lank let's with a whole mag of .45 in their back surviving while some 350lb fatass takes a .22 up the armpit and dies on the scene.

The difference in rifle calibers matters because they actually have a fucking difference in what they will do to a living being. Handguns do not.

I felt that this video brings up something that some people forget about: flora obstruction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5dve7vAY9I

Anyone have the gif of the guy on the snowski having to magdump a 9mm glock into a moose?

Just because you can use a certain caliber to kill an animal doesn't make it optimal. I wouldn't want to use a 7.62 caliber for varmint hunting anymore than I would like to use a .22 for black bear.

And while a .223 would probably be capable of both, it wouldn't be optimal for either.

>>33684842
Yeah I am aware of that but he explicitly focused more on the 22lr and practically glorified the hell out of that round more than logic and reasoning.

>>33684507
humans are generally easier to kill in a self defense scenario. they are presenting their chest to you. large game animals present a higher probability of having to shoot them through a large shoulder bone mass, or a follow up shot where they are running away and may have to punch through hips

>>33684507
There are differences to consider between a rifle you carry on a special trip with the express intent of blasting an animal that might otherwise escape, and a handgun you carry, possibly concealed, in preparation for the low probability that you may need to display or use it to deter, fend off, or neutralize an aggressive animal.

>>33684920
He didn't magdump that moose, he put it down in one shot

File: 1488690556391.jpg (371KB, 2048x1536px) Image search: [Google]

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>7.62x39
Weight 123gr Muzzle Energy 1653 ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec. 2430
>.300 Win Mag
Weight 190 gr Muzzle Energy 4,027 ft·lb Muzzle Velocity 3,083 ft/s
240% increase in energy

>9mm
Weight 115 gr Muzzle Velocity 1,300 ft/s Muzzle Energy 418 ft·lb
>.45 ACP
Weight 231gr Muzzle Velocity 935ft/s Muzzle Energy 431 ft·lb
3% more energy

>>33685017
There's a long version where he follows up with more shots just in case. Moose are big fuckers so I don't blame him.

>>33684645
Shot placement mother fucker.

You shoot it right in the eye as its charging you the bullet will just bounce around In its head!

And since 22 is so mild doesn't even matter if you miss because of those 100 drum capacity and low recoil for follow-up shots

>>33684615
Not him but got a ruger#1 in it for the days I feel 45-70 isn't going to hit my recoil quota

>>33685033
>3% more energy

B-but muh bullet diameter!

Velocity is a meme!

Stopping power!

>>33684507
Great scene.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuRBU8UVhDU

>>33684507
Thats because handgun bullets are traveling too slowly for difference in mass and diameter to really mean much, Your essentially stabbing someone. People tend not to die instantly from a stab wound.

>>33685580
>We will never get a decent CLancy movie ever again
>Certainly not with Harrison Ford or James Earl Jones again
Fuck.

>>33684660
>hurr durr 6mm+ is da same.

Holy fuckin shit not they are not.

There is a word of difference between .243 winchester and 3006 springfield.

>>33684841
Yeah accept a wild boar =/=human just as wild boar=/= cape buffalo.

Its up to the person to decide how much gun that is the best for them, but you bet your ass that one used on wild boar will be more powerful than a human.

Shot placement is more important in hunting then self defense

The main differences in shooting a deer and self defense is going to be distance and reaction of the target

With hunting you want a high power bullet and great shot placement, if you miss the first shot you are not likely to get a second shot but you can take your time aiming.

In self defense you are likely to be very close with no time to aim. Your first objective is to put a bullet in the bad guy and disrupt whatever he is doing then you can begin aiming and work on shot placement. Importance shifts from having a deadly first shot to having multiple controllable follow up shots

Also you don't want to ruin meat with full auto 22lr, even if it will kill the deer

>>33685634
Depending on what it is used on, white tale or pig not so much elk and bear......yeah huge difference. Over in the northeast his statement is true except for moose. It is substantially less accurate in brown bear and elk territory

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>>33685622
>As announced late last year, Amazon is moving forward with plans for a Jack Ryan series, based on the character created by Tom Clancy. Today, Deadline has a major update, reporting that The Office and 13 Hours star John Krasinski has taken the title role.

>The Jack Ryan series will reportedly show Ryan “in his prime” as a CIA operative, providing a new take from the films and using the various books from author Tom Clancy’s bibliography as a jumping off point for a contemporary narrative.

>>33685685
That sounds awful and a continuation of the shit that was Shadow Recruit a few years ago.

>>33684507
Hunters are stupid retards who think you can't hunt hogs with anything short of .300 win mag or .338 lm.
Shooters care about more practical issues, such as conceability, capacity, handling.

>>33685676
There are so many variables on why you would choose a .243 over a 3006 for deer, cheif among them enviroment.

If youre hunting out in the open you would benefit from the .243 ballistic trajectory, ie it shoots flat out to 400 yards.
If youre hunting them in close brush or forest the 3006 will excell due to better barreir penetration and the reduced likelyhood that striking a branch will change the bullets flight path.

This is ignoring other factors such as ammunition load, type of rifle, other environmental factors.

Its not like they have 10 hit points and .243 does 10hp dmg and 3006 does 15hp dmg, they dont do the same things, they both have advantages over the other.

>>33685689
>set in the modern day with a 20ish Jack
>at most he targets some ethnically diverse, a-religious terrorist cell that's right out of a MARVEL movie.
F

>>33685710
400 meter shot relevant hunting in the northeast? You realize that applies only to Maine and maybe some places in the Adirondack state park and in both cases its the fuck out in the middle of nowhere. No for my location no appreciable environment distance when 9/10 shots don't even push lever action limits. That said west of the Appalachia your example holds water

>>33685731
>Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan follows an up-and-coming CIA analyst thrust into a dangerous field assignment for the first time. The series follows Ryan as he uncovers a pattern in terrorist communication that launches him into the center of a dangerous gambit with a new breed of terrorism that threatens destruction on a global scale.
Oh holy fuck I was half-joking with that greentext but nevermind, guess that's EXACTLY what this shit is going to be.

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>>33685770
>>33685731
>the series will not be a direct adaptation of the books, but will use them as source material for a contemporary take on the character

>>33685685
Jeff Bezos will ruin this. He'll probably make every episode have Jack Ryan in a sex scene with a gay nigger or something.

Rifle rounds can have massive disparities in performance. Meanwile, comparing 9mm Para to .45ACP is pretty much like comparing .270 to .308.

>>33685769
Nice moving the goalposts faggot, I was making a general statement about how enviromental factors dictate optimal cartridge performance.

By all means austismo try again

>>33686324
So did you not notice northeast several posts ago or are you just trying to split hairs on short distance effectiveness on light mid sized game. You moved goalposts the moment you tried to add environmental issues to a preexisting location

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>>33684507

Well what are you hunting and how far away is it fag?

For example, 5.56 would be fine for hunting white tail within 100 yards but at 300 it gets much more iffy on whether the shot will kill the animal before it runs away 5 miles and dies. With rifles, distance and prey size is much more relevant, handguns is normally inside 50 yards tops.

With handguns you're also going to mag dump into something that isn't running away from you with no regard for how much meat is left.

>>33686570
This is an excellent summary of general good sense

>>33686570
What was he hit with, 5.56?

>>33684507
You've actually hit on the answer but apparently fallen just short of getting it.

>Good shot placement is almost a given for the hunter
Exactly. Which is why the hunter can afford to use larger cartridges, because good shot placement is easy with a scoped rifle, and followup shots aren't necessary in hunting vs fighting.That being the case, since we want to be humane and not cause unnecessary suffering in animals we kill, it's generally considered good sportsmanship to use a more powerful cartridge. Now Fudds often take this too far, due to a general lack of understanding when it comes to terminal ballistics, but it's still basically sound in context.

>but do we really want to bet our lives on weaker handgun rounds when even the best are not very good?
The last part there is key. Handgun cartridges vary more in size and recoil than they do in terminal ballistics. All handgun rounds are about equally crap. Well, except Fuddy-Five. That one's extra crap.

In a handgun fight, you don't have the luxury of a scope, a stocked rifle and all the time in the world to carefully make your shot. You have open iron sights or maybe a red dot, and you're in a stressful situation where you have to react quickly. Since all pistol cartridges are about the same level of shitty for killing people, it's advisable to pick the one that easiest to make hits with under stress. The objective in a handgun fight is different too. You're not looking to kill someone necessarily, you're trying to get them to stop attacking you. It doesn't matter if it's humane, as long as you stop the threat.

>>33687059
This is why machine pistols would be the best concealable self defense weapons. The NFA needs to be repealed.

>>33687083
They tend to be too bulky to be easily concealed, and have an extremely high rate of fire that is actually less efficient for making hits on a single target than rapid semi-automatic fire. They're great for suppressing groups of people at fairly close range

But the NFA should be repealed.

>>33687222
Glock 18 would be a perfect CCW. If the NFA were repealed we could have cheap select fire glocks in any form factor. There is no reason that a modern full auto pistol needs to be bulky.

>>33684780
I'm not into zombie scene, but...
>Effective target zone = central nervous system (surrounded with bones and such, so temporary wound cavity is out of quiestion)
>.22lr (from rifle) is enough to penetrate human bones to hit central nervous system, from most realistic angles.
>Suppressible
>Loads of ammo in small space/weight
>Virtually no recoil
>etc.

No worries about "bigger animals" in my area. Apocalypse and lack of natural pray might change that tough.

>>33687278
>Glock 18 would be a perfect CCW
Have you ever fired one?
I played with a post sample conversion of a 17 at a range event once. It was completely uncontrollable, even with a ported barrel. Fun, but a waste of ammunition. I got more shots actually on target and did it faster by firing in semi auto.

>If the NFA were repealed we could have cheap select fire glocks in any form factor.
True, but of questionable utility.

>There is no reason that a modern full auto pistol needs to be bulky.
Depends on how you define needs.
Sure, you can make something like a Glock 18. But it will have a ridiculously high cyclic rate, be completely uncontrollable in full auto, and wear out much faster. Machine pistols are heavy and bulky for a reason. Because you need that extra mass to slow the bolt down so you don't end up with 1000+ rpm cyclic rates, and to keep the weapon from climbing off your target.

>>33687325
Thing is zombies are pretty easy to avoid. And if you do encounter them, they're pretty easy to kill with a polearm. You want the gun for emergencies, hunting animals for food, and most importantly fending off other survivors. Ironically in a real zombie apocalypse the biggest threat is other humans.

>>33686652

Thank you anon.

>>33686859

Yep, it's a good example of fragmenting rounds. They don't fragment every time, but at close range or when the round is still above 2600 fps they're likely to. 2900 fps it will fragment almost very time.

>>33687340
>I played with a post sample conversion of a 17 at a range event once. It was completely uncontrollable, even with a ported barrel. Fun, but a waste of ammunition. I got more shots actually on target and did it faster by firing in semi auto.
If you're in an actual self defense scenario, not shooting at a target downrange, it would work perfectly. The point is to put lead into a guy who's about to fuck you up, not fight a battle with it. When a guy with a knife tries to accost you in a parking garage, you need to magdump into him as quickly as possible and the glock 18 is the perfect way to do it.

>>33684507
>Opinions of people who actually kill things
Vs.
>Opinions of a bunch of LARPing faggots

>>33684507

Because fudds are fucking dumb and always wrong. I had someone tell me "12 gauge slugs aren't enough for black bear, hell I only hunt deer with .300 win mag" with a straight fucking face.

Fact is with pistol rounds it doesn't matter if you shoot someone with a .45 or a 9mm. If you hit something immediately lethal, they die. If you don't, they'll bleed a lot and live when the ambulance gets there. Shot placement, and capacity to give your more chances to get proper shot placement are all that matters.

>>33687399
>Opinions of people who only "learned" their facts from pre-internet memes
Vs.
>Opinions of people who learn their facts from internet memes

Fudds think with memes just as much as we do. The difference is that fud memes are passed around father-to-son and between buddies in bars. Whereas our memes have to withstand the scrutiny of autists who will look up facts in reference materials. That sort of research is never performed on pre-internet memes. That's why pre-internet fud memes fall apart when brought to /k/.

>>33687393
Did you not read what I wrote? Semi-auto magdumps will put more lead into the bad guy faster than a full-auto one. You're underestimating just how much a full auto handgun will bounce around in every direction. There's a reason they're not more popular with law enforcement and the military. Because you can't hit jack shit with them even in a defensive scenario. When I shot the FA Glock, I tried dumping on a target 15 meters away, which seemed like a pretty reasonable self-defense range. Once on full auto, once on semi. I got more rounds into the torso in less time when I fired in semi-auto.

Full auto is actually of very limited usefulness in general. It's mainly valuable for its psychological effect in suppressing groups of enemies on the battlefield (or for hitting a fast moving target from a vehicle). In a one-on-one fight semi-auto fire is more effective because it's more controllable.

>>33687399
Go away Elmer, nobody cares about your old man yelling.

>>33687509
>15 meters away
Try less than 1 meter away. Hood rats don't stay 15 meters away when they're trying to gut you for your wallet. They get up close to you and invade your personal space.

A machine pistol is the fastest way there is to put lead into them.

>op actually thought this thread sounded smart

People like you who are arrogant and barely know enough to be so are the worst.

>>33687643
>Try less than 1 meter away
Ok so you're just an idiot then. Gotcha.

>>33687696
>he thinks people get mugged from 15 meters away
You're an idiot.

Even if that were to happen, with a select fire machine pistol you could flip it into semi-auto. But in the more likely scenario that your assailant has decided not to respect your personal space, you'll be better equipped to deal with it.

>>33684655
>What is the smallest lightest .375 H&H goy?
Nobody cares because you don't want a small, light .375 you want it it large and heavy enough to help absorb recoil without ruining the handling.

>>33687744
>letting a potential assailant get that close to you in the first place

>But in the more likely scenario that your assailant has decided not to respect your personal space
Actually the most likely scenario (95% of recorded cases) is that when you produce any gun, the criminal will run away because it's not worth it to get shot for a watch and the $50 in your wallet. The second most likely scenario is that you will fire 3 to 5 shots, and the criminal will either run away or be incapacitated. In the extremely, extremely unlikely scenario that a street criminal decides to risk death for your wallet/boipussi, and getting shot once or twice isn't enough to deter him, spray and pray will still not be more effective than rapid semi-auto fire.

You don't know what you're talking about. You haven't even fired the gun you're advocating for, and refuse to listen when people who have when they tell you it's not everything video games have cracked it up to be.

>>33688023
>>>letting a potential assailant get that close to you in the first place

>guy starts walking up to you
>Hey ma-
>*you draw on him*
Yeah, okay champ.

>>33685769
>he doesn't hunt on farms and ranches

>>33688043
Did I say draw on him immediately? See, this is why you're a fool. You think self defense is entirely about shooting people.

There's other elements to it. Situational awareness. Avoiding dangerous areas unless necessary. Maintaining distance from suspicious individuals. Etc.

If a random guy starts approaching me when there's nobody else around, I'm going to keep my distance and ask him what he wants. Not just wait for him to get right up in my face, but not just start popping off rounds either. If he's just panhandling, I'll tell him to fuck off. If he has a question, I'll answer it. If he doesn't say anything and just keeps coming at me after I tell him to fuck off, and I can't reasonably get away, then I'll think about using force.

>>33684507
The honest answer anon? It's because there's less difference in performance between common defensive handgun calibers than there is between the 7x57 and 7.92x57.

>>33688152
>t. never lived in a town

>>33687643
So then you'd have way more hearing loss and tinnitus when one shot would have brought them down.

>>33688439
Handgun rounds are notorious for not dropping people immediately. Even a single lethal hit might take several minutes to kill. To end the threat as quickly as possible, you need to magdump as quickly as possible. That's just a simple medical fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk