Did the US ever encounter Tiger tanks in Normandy? The only reports

All the tigers broke down before reaching Normandy.

>>33679388
Not really. By the time the Tigers came into play the Allies had pushed through Normandy. There might have been stragglers but Tigers on the whole were kept in reserve until too late.

If you mean the battle of Normandy itself, then yes.

>On 22 June 1944 the 316 Kompanie was resesignated as the 1. Kompanie of Panzer-Abteilung(Fkl) 302 and was sent to Reims to refit and rest. In summary for the Panzer-Lehr Division they were in combat at Normandy with only 3 Tiger Is. These were most likely lost in the Normandy campaign. The Tiger IIs were not with the division in the Normandy battles but they remained behind at Chateudun. These 5 Tiger IIs had the following turret numbers 02,10,11,12,13. They were deployed within the city defense aganist the approaching US troops.

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>>33679388
Wittmann bought the farm in Normandy. So it's safe to say there were Tigers there.

>>33679651

>On 13 August 1944 Tiger 10 was positioned in the northwest at the N155 road. Tiger 13 was positioned in the west near road N827. Tiger 12 was in position at the junction of roads N10 and N824. The remaining two Tiger IIs [02 and 11 were covering the river Loire to the north of Place le Mail. On 15 August a scout patrol of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment of the US Army approached Montigny-le-Ganellon where they encountered Tiger 12. Three American vehicles are captured along with the crews. On 16 August Tiger 13 is being shelled by US artillery without any effect. Tiger 12 fired several rounds with the main gun bringing the American advance to a standstill. Thjat evening Tiger 10 leaves its position and joins Tigers 02 and 11 at the Palce le Mail. During the night of 17 August Tigers 12 and 13 are left behind by their crews. Tiger 12 is set on fire. The remaining three Tiger IIs drive to Boulevard Kellermannn at approximately 0300 hours. After arriving Tiger 11 breaks down and has to be left behind. The remianing two Tiger IIs take road N155 to the east and reach Varize the following evening. Tiger 10 breaks down and Tiger 02 retreaves it a short distance via a tow. On 18 August at approximately 2000 hours Toiger 10 is blown up by the crew and Tiger 02 continues towards Janville. Shortly before reaching Toury the final drive damage causes the Tiger to turn sharply to the left where it runs over a tree and comes to a stop. After assesment for repair it is determined not possible and the Tiger is left behind. Thus ends the story of the Tigers in the Panzer-Lehr Division. In summary the division operated 10 Tiger Is and 5 Tiger IIs. In combat they used only three Tiger Is. The Tiger IIs had been detached and were on their way to Germany when they were pressed into action in August 1944.

In Normandy itself? It probably happened there are just no records for it other than then some confused after action reports.

>>33679675
>all these mechanical failures
Wehrabooes btfo

I've heard that the 102nd SS Heavy-Panzer Battalion and the 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion used Tiger tanks to engage US troops but I'm not sure of what the source is for that.

>>33679704
pretty par for the course for Tigers.

also, for best wehraboo tears, just bring up Arracourt. Panthers vs Shermans, approx. even numbers, no air support because weather, Panthers get BTFO

>>33679388
I know they where at the Battle of Villers-Bocage, which means yes.

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They destroyed Tigers left and right, see video.

>>33679840
>All those dead horsies.
:c

>>33679745

I thought that was the British.

>>33679840
Of the 6 scenes, 3 are fucking horse drawn carriages, 1 is a Jagdpanzer, and I can't make out the other two.

How can you use it to claim tigers getting destroyed?

>>33679723
>Of the 262 tanks and assault guns deployed by the German units in the week of fighting near Arracourt, 86 were destroyed, 114 were damaged or broken down, and only 62 were operational at the end of the month.

Wow. The Panther really was an unreliable piece of shit, wasn't it?

>>33679951
It was German. When it works right, it is a marvel of engineering and works beautifully. When it breaks down, which is a lot, parts are expensive, labor is a pain, and few present people tend to have the knowledge to perform the complicated repairs.

German vehicles never change.

>>33679951
yup.

like I said, totally BTFO.

>>33680003
>marvel of engineering
>overly complex and unreliable
>when it works, it's equal to other much cheaper, more simple machines

that's not a "marvel" of engineering bruh. engineering isn't about designing the most complicated machine possible. the simplest design to do the job is the best engineering job.

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>>33679926

>>33680048
Differences of opinion anon. Intricate and ingenious designs get my dick hard. Even if they could be done simpler, just to get rid of .1Nm of force from a motion.

>>33680087
"cool" or "intricate" designs are fine.

Doesn't make them a "marvel of engineering".

"engineering" isn't "art". It doesn't matter if it's really intricate or cool looking or "clever design".

"engineering" isn't a subjective field. It's not about opinion. It's an objective fact that the Sherman was a more impressive feat of engineering design than the Panther or Tiger was.

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German engineering at its finest.
Everything on this was "return to manufacturer for service".
Check all those useful maintenance ports.

>>33679675
>>33679704
>>33679723
>>33679951
Anyone else remember in the 90s when anything German from WWII was considered the best?

Shermans were Ronsons and "muh 5-to-1" ratio was commonly accepted as facts, etc.

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>>33680206
Using this was what they did best.
They're also best at coming second at war.

>>33680206
I blame History Channel. I used to believe half of that shit. I wasn't so bad as some wehraboos you see today, but I fully believed the "omg Rommel was a genius and totally honorable" thing, and the "omg the Panther and Tiger were better" things (although I at least acknowledged the Sherman, T-34, etc. were good)

>>33680290
Yep, they would always ignore the fact that the Sherman and T-34 would just keep operating and also had quick repairs.

>>33680290

The end of that for me was when I read John Toland's account of the Battle of Bulge, where he gives accounts of individual Sherman tanks, operating on their own, sneaking up on Tigers and shooting them in the ass, none of that 5-1 shit zerg rush shit we were told.

>>33680352
5-1 comes from advancing in line abreast into defended positions. Still somewhat popular among the upper management at the time.

>>33680430
Better still. Advance in line astern along this country lane into the attack.

>>33680290
Something I will probably never understand is how these comparisons started in the first place. Who looked at the Sherman, a medium tank designed to be quick and easy to make and repair, to the Tiger, a heavy tank designed to be as heavily armed and armored for the time and to fight in huge open spaces, and thought they were in any way similar.

>>33680513
it comes from two sources. It comes from German accounts that massively exaggerated kill counts, as well as differing standards of what counts as a "loss" for a tank. It also comes from the Allies liking to look like the underdogs beating back the uber-skilled germans by sheer force of will and pluckiness (rather than the curb-stomping by overwhelming force that it really was)

It also might have to do with "tigers" becoming essentially a meme, and soldiers just calling all german tanks "tigers".

>>33680352
I like that author.

>>33680206
>was commonly accepted as facts
It's still like this though.
Because people watch shitty History Channel documentaries and gobble it up without even thinking.

>>33680866
It was rather fun though, seeing just how many things they would get wrong. The made for some rather nice comedies.

>>33679840

Missing that one where they fired against some zebra or a giraffe

>>33680319
> T-34 would just keep operating and also had quick repairs
Are there still people that actually believe this?

>>33684179
I've always assumed that when your T-34 breaks down, you pop an other one out of you 12 pack of T-34s.

As far as whether Americans engaged Tigers in Normandy itself, well I dug up an old Military History magazine dated October 1997, where they interviewed a 1st Lt. James P. Alford of the 746th Tank Battalion as saying

>We were attached to an infantry battalion in the hedgerows of Normandy. A German tank had been running up and down between the hedges, wreaking havoc on the infantry. It had to be a Tiger from the width of the tread marks on the road.

>>33684179
Who cares. 50 k Shermans produced and around 60-70k T-34's produced. Plus a fuckton of tank destroyers.
German produced barely 1300 tigers and 6000 panthers.

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I believe that most of the Tigers and Panthers in Normandy engaged the British, which is convenient as they had Fireflies.

Side note: the Sherman and T-34 were extremely close in performance. How close? The British initially wanted the T-34 instead. They would just replace the gun with a 17 pounder. We were dangerously close to a universe in which slavshit operated in Normandy.

>>33685243
>The British initially wanted the T-34 instead
Do you have a citation on that?

>>33685243
How close?
Shermans burned a little bit better after they got hit and ammo cooked off quicker.

Steve Zaloga says there were three known incidents after D-Day, in the west, where Tiger Is were confirmed to have encountered American troops.

All of those qualifiers are important. Americans met Tigers in North Africa and Italy, they met Tiger IIs quite a bit during the Bulge and after, and the British encountered the Tiger Is in Normandy a lot.

The Tigers were just operating more in the British sectors of Normandy, so the Americans just didn't run into them much.

>>33685484
They also had something called "ergonomics" and "comfort"

>>33685243
The brits wanted literally anything with tracks and a turret. If there were any available they would have sent Bob semple tanks over the channel that day.

>>33685243

How the fuck were they planning to stick a 17 pounder in a t34 turret? Unless they planned to use a t34-85

>>33685635
..and forget trying to justify importing tonks from a country that you're sending massive amounts of aid to because their own production is tied up in a war economy...and your main ally has the resources to spare.

>>33685243
>I believe that most of the Tigers and Panthers in Normandy engaged the British.
"I believe" implies you don't know, and are making this up.
let me guess, you are british?

>>33685448
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/04/bovington-t-34-and-kv-1-impressions.html
>Additionally, in our conversations, we have learned that:
a) the T-34 and KV vehicles will be produced for the British army. The former will be equipped with a 17-pounder, the latter with a 6 inch howitzer.
b) the tanks will be built with an improved gearbox and differential clutches.
c) the KV air pumps will be improved. [Note: the KV the British got had a defective air pump]
d) the tanks will be equipped with centrifugal air filters that will draw air from the transmission compartment. This is explained as follows: if you take air from behind the tank, it will contain dust kicked up by the tank. If you draw air from the transmission, the air purity reached is 100% ideal.
e) the welding will be performed with electrodes made from high hardness steel, which will result in welding seams being as robust as the armour plates.

>>33685773
see
>>33685497

Zaloga confirms.

https://tankandafvnews.com/2015/01/27/zaloga_interview/

>>33685721
there would be no reason not to just make T34 in England or US in that instance

>>33685773

Not that guy, but I can confirm this is true, I know because I just got done arguing with some British faggot who was trying to say that he knew for a fact that NO tiger tanks engaged US forces in Normandy or during the Normandy campaign in general.

The former being unlikely since I know of at least two eye witness accounts of US forces encountering them in Normandy proper, one from the 9th infantry and one from the 746th tank battalion, and the latter claim being flat out wrong considering "Tigers in Normandy" gives an account of Panzer Lehr engaging US forces with Tiger IIs, in addition to the account by Zaloga of Sherman tanks from 3rd armored shooting up some Tigers Is being loaded on rail cars, all during the closing stages of the campaign, which surprised me since like most people I assumed the US never ran into Tiger IIs until the Bulge.

>>33685824

for the very same reasons that germany did not outright copy the t34.
national pride, and no shortage of their own original ideas.

>>33685824
I'm not sure when the proposal was floated, which seems key. The article seems to overlook that.

When did the SS tank aces come into play? The tankers that killed tanks in the hundreds...

>>33679388

There was a tiger tank near upminster road, just outside the village of seychelles, took 18 firefly tanks to take it down by driving on top of it and catching fire until it melted.

>>33686503

HIAG plz go, take your mythology with you.

>>33686503
SS panzer divisions consistantly underperformed compared to their Heer counterparts, despite being given priority for resupplies and upgrades.

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>>33686611

*refuses to shave beard in CO's presence*

According to Zaloga, he found 3 verifiable occasions when US met Tigers in West Europe

>There was one incident in August of 1944 where 3rd Armored division ran into three Tigers that were damaged and being pulled back on a train, they shot them up with an anti-aircraft half-track. And then there was a single Tiger company up in the Bulge that was involved in some fighting. And then there was one short set of instances in April 1945, right around the period of the film, where there was a small isolated Tiger unit that actually got engaged with one of the new US M26 Pershing tank units. They knocked out a Pershing and then in turn that Tiger was knocked out and the Pershing tanks knocked out another King Tiger over the following days. So I found three verifiable instances of Tigers encountering, or having skirmishes with US troops in 1944-45. So it was very uncommon. It definitely could have happened, there are certainly lots of gaps in the historical record both on the German side and the US side. I think the idea that the US encountered a lot of Tigers during WW2 is simply due to the tendency of the US troops to call all German tanks Tigers.

>>33686541
Wut

>>33686611
>>33686646

Talking about men like this feller here, wehter SS or not..

>>33685799
Superb interview, thanks for sharing

>>33679704
>>33679723
It's what happens when you use gods chosen people as slave laborers in tank factories, sabotage was the norm

>>33687439

Polish people are indeed GOAT.

t. Totally not a polak.

>>33685796

>British turning T-34's into not hasty made shit

In a way I wish I could have seen at least one example, but they definitely made the better choice to work with their own designs and the Murrican tonks. So much easier access and better vehicles in the end.

>>33679388
Yes there were tiger I's in the Normandy area, they were mostly Late and Mid production vehicles. There were also a bunch of Panthers, Panzer IV's, PZIII, Stugs...etc, basically most of the German armor Zoo were present

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Most Tiger I fought in the British/Canadian sector, especially around Caen, and boy did the Brits have a fucking hard time with them.

Read about some of the fighting around Hill 112 during Operation Epsom.

The Tiger I was a killing machine. Pic unrelated.

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>>33686611
>SS panzer divisions consistantly underperformed compared to their Heer counterparts, despite being given priority for resupplies and upgrades.

Which asshole did you pull shit bullshit from?

>>>/int/73771218

please, share our whisdom. we having an argument here about tanks-