Should Finland buy Saab Gripen fighter jets, F-35, or Boeing

>>33662867
Gripen, if they favor interoperability with the Swedes. F35 if they favor interoperability with the U.S. and NATO.

>>33662867
Super Hornets desu.

I doubt you have the money for F-35s and the Gripen is a shitty meme plane. Plus we already know your pilots and ground crews have at least some familiarity with the airframe.

>>33663385
Weren't F-35 prices approaching Hornet levels last time we looked at the cost reductions?

F-35, Super Bug isn't that Super anyway

>>33663401
F35's are still about $25m more IIRC. $70m-ish for the Super Bug, $95m-ish for the Lightning II.

>>33663401
They're more expensive but it's not just the cost of the planes themselves, you have to factor in logistics and the cost to train pilots and crews. The Super Hornet and legacy Hornet have about 20% parts commonality which is a big savings to a country as small as Finland.

>>33663385
The primary mission of the aircraft is combat air patrol, isn't the super hornet a bit poor for that purpose?

>>33663483
It's certainly better than legacy Hornets which they claim to be very happy with.

I think the biggest problems with the Super Bug or Gripen are long term. If the Russians manage to develop a properly stealthy version of the PAK FA, the Super Hornet and Gripen would lose their long-range advantage.

>>33663553
PAK-FA is already better than both of those platforms.

>>33663553
Russian long range SAMs have also been a major concern with the FiAF

>>33663588
Funny, but no, the PAKFA isn't operational.

>>33663600
The F-35 isn't fully operational either but its still better than those two aircraft.

We're not talking right now, but Finland wouldn't be aquiring anything until it is operational anyway.

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Buy a European jet and prepare for the united Euro military

Can they afford any?

>>33663611
>Posts an RAF jet that will never be a part of such an abomination

>>33663295
Sweden it is!

>>33663588
The PAK-FA doesn't even have it's engines. It's literally vaproware at this point.

>>33663611
Implying France, Netherlands etc. would ever come to the aid of Finland or the Baltics in the face of a Russian hybrid invasion

>>33663638
Might as well say the F-35 doesn't exist because it doesn't have ADVENT yet.

>>33663643
they'll send a strongly worded letter to sovie- I mean russian emp- I mean federation

>>33663650
The F-35 is in production. The PAK-FA won't be for probably another half decade at least.

>>33663643
Would they forgive both EU country being attacked as well as their NATO ally? Which would risk EU as well as Schengen zone.
That is if you dont count killed soldiers of said countries stationed in baltics right now

>>33663675
>Schengen zone.

Yeah I'm sure that they're really worred about a treaty concerning border / immigration control and free movement

>>33663694
Yes? Because there are literally no borders between most of these countries which gives a possibility for russians to move anywhere they want?
>but they can do this anyway right now
Not to this extent

>>33663624
hehehe, I was wondering if anyone would notice

>>33663643
Implying the EU would give up one of it's richest members

>>33663715
>Yes? Because there are literally no borders between most of these countries which gives a possibility for russians to move anywhere they want?

ah yes, I forgot little huts with a border guard stop T-90s

>>33663715
If only France had used passport control to stop the Blitzkrieg...

>>33663609
There is a difference between an aircraft inbetween IOC and FOC and an aircraft that hasn't reached IOC yet, I think even the J-20 has reached China's equivalent of IOC.

>>33663758
We thought it was belgian tanks on hollidays

>>33663643
hybrid warfare might work in estonia and latvia, maybe in lithuania but definitely not in finland. there is no essentially 100% russian zone at the border with a dissatisfied minority to exploit like ukraine.

>>33662867

Rafale

>Goes the furthest with the most
>Most advanced bombs
>Can carry nukes
>Still the only plane in the world with SPECTRA
>Can have an AESA
>MICA > AMRAAM in close because BVR wont work
>Bigger gun
>Already works

>>33665400
Has cool name

>>33665400
>Goes the furthest
Doesn't seem relevant, Finnish fighters will be defending the airspace, not crossing the Pacific.

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>>33665400
>>Can carry nukes
Comes handy when we have finished making Finland great again

>>33665554
What you mean after you nuke yourselves?

>>33663628
Why would Finland want to share compatibility with a Muslim country?

>>33665475

Super Hornet, Gripen, Eurofighter and F-35 are all short range.

Rafale is long range.

>>33662867
Is Finland ever going to get into a dog fight? Get whats cheap and invest the savings in better pilot training.

>>33665400
Literally every single one of those planes can carry nukes.

>>33665607
>short range now means you can go further than long range

interdarsating

>>33662867
Gripen NG

>>33663766
I doubt it.

Or rather, not a western style ioc. Way to early for ground crews, operational deployed squadron with proper training, bugs worked out, etc.

>>33665400

>>Goes the furthest with the most

debatable, 3 fuel tanks really eat into payload capacity.

>>Most advanced bombs

Not for long

>>Can carry nukes

Ignoring that only the Swedish meme plane can't, is this actually important to the Fins?

>>Still the only plane in the world with SPECTRA

DAS/Barracuda is significantly better.

>>Can have an AESA

A unique Dassault innovation for sure...

>>MICA > AMRAAM in close because BVR wont work

It will work against the Rafale.

>>Bigger gun

lol

>>Already works

fair

you are just forgetting:

>most expensive

>shitty expensive frog munitions

>>33665736

Rafale flew from France to Libya

>>33663609
It's being deployed, so yes it is operational.

>>33665607
>F-35 is short range
Is what reality?

>>33665992
>Rafale flew from France to Libya

Same place

>>33665992
Congratulations.The F-35's flown transatlantic flights.

>>33666990
Not an argument
With refueling even a Cessna could do it

>>33667105
>Not an argument
Keep telling yourself that. Can your meme plane even do anything at all without drop tanks? Or is it like an F-16 where they're permanent features?

>>33667234
>Crossing an ocean with refueling is an argument for being long range
Christ this is dense even for /k/

>>33665400

t. new gen only operational in 2025

lel fuck off with this frog trash.

>>33662867
F-35 us a meme. And a shitty one at that.

>>33667495
Why?

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>>33667387
>comparing range with bags against one without
Christ this is dense even for /k/

Just trying to hide the fact that your shitty meme plane has a lower internal fuel capacity than the F-35?

>>33665978
Obviously not him as I'm not retarded but is there any real reason a Gripen couldn't be jimmy rigged to carry a B61?

>>33669396
Theoretically, no, but generally qualifying an aircraft for some new weapon is an expensive process. It's not as simple as just slapping something on a hardpoint that can support that much weight. You need
>Separation tests to be sure that the weapon won't fuck anything up when it drops
>Integration of the weapon's electronics with the aircraft
For nukes, there's definitely some other steps in there, though I'm not sure what exactly they are. IIRC there's some kind of special nuke-handling avionics you need for US nukes, because the B-1's have had those avionics removed to get around strategic arms limitation treaties.

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>>33662867
Depends what they want their Air Force to do, if they want anything other than obsolete bomb trucks then it's F-35 or bust desu.

>>33663414
The thing about those prices is that they're for a contract that's already been signed; if Finland ordered F-35As this very day, they'd be paying about $88-90m, because they'd have to get in on LRIP 11.

In all likelihood, if Finland goes with F-35s, they'll be getting in on LRIP 12 or 13, at which point we're talking about <$85 million jets.

It's also not certain what a Super Hornet would cost at that time; the FY17 budget had them at $78 million per jet, but at a pretty low production rate. With the Block 3 / F/A-18XT model, you're going to be paying a few million on top of what a Block 2 (current gen Super Hornet) would have cost as well.

>>33663454
That number sounds a bit high, but even if it isn't, it won't be very relevant; those spares will get used in the interim or sold if Finland doesn't have to destroy their Hornets.

>>33663483
The Super Hornet's a decent air-to-air jet; AESA radar, low RCS.

>>33663766
The J-20's only at an operational (for training) state; you'll note that none of the latest J-20 airframes have a transparent EOTS canopy.

>>33663401
Operational costs of the F-35 are much higher.

>>33673405
Not that much higher; the USAF and USN don't measure CPFH the same, but an F-35A only costs about 15% more than an F-16C, and I doubt a larger, twin-engined Super Hornet is going to be that much cheaper (if at all) than an F-16C.

>>33673415
Try over twice as high.

>>33673405
>>33673415
>>33673421
Time for some sources for both of your claims. And please make sure they're comparable, considering things like inflation and how different countries measure cost.

Gripen is roughly equivalent to the newest F-16s, it's designed for similar climates + roadway usage and has fuckall ongoing costs compared to it's competitors.

>>33665620
Going by the results of that international exercise in Norway a few years back their pilot training is already top notch and certainly get more flight hours than their potential adversaries.

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Belgium is also looking at replacing the F16s.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind Rafales as a fuck you to everyone else.
But it looks like the F-35 will win (inter-op with the dutch, able to carry american nukes stationed at Kleine Brogel, sucking up to the americunts).

>>33662867
The F-35 is a joke. The Hornets are overpriced.

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>>33662867
>You will never see Findland and Norway fly Swedish birds, drive Fins tank and Sails on Norwegians ships.

>>33674002
t. Pedro Sanchez Alvarez

>>33673421
"No."

Try 75% of the Super Bug per flight hour. Welcome to reality, please try better to cope.

>>33665400
>>33665554
The F-35 can carry B61s, too.

>>33674396
Actually I'm a Swissfag. We had this same dilemma a few years ago (with the hornets that is).

>>33665400
The majority of a2a kills since the 80's have been BVR.

>>33673963
>I want to cut off my nose to snub my face.

>>33675076

Rafale aint nothing to sneeze at though.

>>33675086
That doesn't mean it's the best (or even a remotely intelligent) option.

Belgium can barely afford a workable air force, so interoperability with NATO should be the priority. Paying twice the cost of an F-35 for something not compatible with any of their current munitions would be a retarded idea.

>>33673421
........right....

>>33675061

BVR doesn't work on planes with SPECTRA.

>>33674514

lol B61. Try a not outdated one like ASMP-A.

>>33665978

>Not for long

lol AASM is better than Paveway, SDB one and two, Brimstone and Hellfire anyway.

>DAS/Barracuda is significantly better.

That isn't SPECTRA, thats just ECM. SPECTRA makes the plane be not locked.

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>>33675099

The majority of belgian jet pilots are trained in France. Using the same stuff as they do is a huge advantage.

As far as inter-op with NATO is concerned? The current jets are used for air space policing at home and bomb trucking abroad.
It's not that much of a concern.

The Saab is too light, the F35 seems like a huge potential money sink, the eurofighter has all kinds of fucked licensing issues and renewal clauses.
Rafale aint cheap, sure, but it has interop with our training partners as well and is less dependent on the USA.

>>33675160
and all of this is based on...?

>>33675165
Using the same jets as the rest of NATO would be a huge thing for interoperability, even if all you're doing is air policing. You'll have a greater availability of parts and maintenance personnel, and for cooperative operations with NATO it'll be less of a logistical strain on everyone, because the jets would fit in with existing infrastructure instead of requiring their own special, separate facilities.

You're right about the Gripen - it's too light, and the rising costs in the newer variants are really making it look like they're not really worth it. The F-35 meanwhile is really only a money sink if you believe the memeing about it. Long term, it's probably the cheapest option. It'll have the widest availability of spares and experienced personnel thanks to the huge amount of orders it's received, and it's already looking like it's a far cheaper option than the Rafale.

And the independence from the US point really shouldn't be that much of an issue. Belgian interests don't really conflict with US interests enough for it to be an issue, and, while strategic independence is always a nice thing, there really doesn't seem to be any good reason for Belgium to specifically want to avoid dependence on the US versus any other country that would sell them a jet.

>>33675181
Frenchfag delusions.

>>33662867
Finland should buy Su-35 and join Russia as a province.

>>33675165
see >>33675076

>>33675311
What would be the difference? Rich Russians would flock to Finland faster to buy expensive luxury shit because they wouldnt need a passport anymore.
Finland should join Russia as the luxury province.
Better than a buffer state it is now

>>33675350
>Russian border states should just accept being Russian property

>>33662867
F-14
Everything else is a meme

>>33675363
Have they ever tried willingly?
its like giving into rape, the rapist goes flaccid
Also, Finlad would be the strongest province in Russia. A Finn could be a president.

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>Finland wants a cheap interceptor/air defence fighter that doesnt need a huge range and is adapted to take of from improvised roads

How could this even be a debate?

>>33675381
There is no willingly with Russia, you are either subservient or the tanks roll in.

>>33675381
>its like giving into rape, the rapist goes flaccid

Thats... not how it works anon

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>>33675421
>>33675428
t.dumb amerisharts

>>33675160
>t. rafalefag

It's so easy to identify your posts that it's painful.

>>33675381
>a Finn could be president
>fair elections in Russia
no

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>>33675438
Fucking ryssäbotti.

>>33675160

>SPECTRA makes the plane be not locked.

looks like someone has drunk the grenadine.

>>33675481
vittu, amerikkalainen paska

>>33663611
Too expensive. With the Super Hornet they can at least use some of their existing maintenance installations. With anything else they'd have to build it up from the ground.

>>33675407

>Finland wants a plane that exists.

>>33675165
IDK how many Belgians are trained in France but I know they have a bunch of Belgians trained in the US at ENJJPT as well. If they wanted to train all pilots in the US it wouldn't be very difficult to do since they have such a small number of pilots to begin with.

>>33663611
this

>>33662867
Gripens fit Finlands case quit well.

>Low operating costs
>Simple maintenance requiring fewer ground crew & less time
>Capable of short take-offs from roads
>Largely NATO compatible, and Saab offers easy integration of other munitions

If they're willing to put down more money, they'll get more bang with Super Hornets.

>>33663675
>>33662867
>Would they forgive both EU country being attacked as well as their NATO ally? Which would risk EU as well as Schengen zone.
in '39 no one wanted to die for Danzig even when Hitler was quite open about what will he do next and today people living west of Poland don't even feel threatened by Russia
from their perspective helping baltic states is like getting out of your way and into smb else house to start a fight - thats why actively helping would only faciliteded the colaps of western block

>>33675160
>B61
>outdated
It's a tactical nuclear bomb, how the fuck could it be outdated? Does it go "boom?" Yes? Then it works perfectly.

>>33675557

>>Low operating costs

Not really, Swiss eval found that they cost around the same to operate as F-16s (which respectively cost about 2/3 PFH of SHornet/F-35).
SAAB deliberately uses the most misleading cost metrics in it's advertising to swindle naive politicians and journos, see the time they claimed $7000 PFH (barely covers fuel costs).

Whilst the SAAB NG may be the cheapest, it will certainly be the least cost effective thanks to it's anaemic double digit production numbers.

>>33665400
If Le Pen wins the election, we won't buy the Rafale, because she's a Putin shill.

>>33675993
Any politician I don't like is controlled by Russia.

>>33676025
Well she's pretty open about it.

>>33676037
According to media openly hostile to her.

>>33676037
Feel free to back that up.

>>33675561
The information spreading wasn't as good back then, though. Most people probably didn't even know how the war even looks like

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>>33665554

Golden Horde 2 when?

>>33676060
>>33676064
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen#Russia_and_Ukraine
Read the sources.

>>33676147
>but anon, Wikipedia is a leftist shill!!!!!1one

>>33676168
Wikipedia isn't a source.

>>33676147
>Wanting to seek a diplomatic solution rather than sanctioning Europe's largest supplier of natural gas
>Somehow a bad thing

>>33662867
F-35

>>33676196
>Letting Russia do whatever it wants in exchange for gas
>Somehow a good thing

>>33676217
That is a pretty good strawman.

>>33676222
Almost as good as yours.

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>>33676196
>seeking a diplomatic solution with the people who held half a continent as an open-air prison for half a century

>>33676217
>Diplomacy means Russia can act as they please
>France, who receives 70% of their electricity from nuclear, needing Russian Gas

>>33676256
>Diplomacy means Russia can act as they please
It does. They don't care about what others think.
In any case Le Pen is a massive russiaboo and whether you think that's a good or a bad thing, for Finland it means that France may vote itself out of our fighter program.

>>33675517
It has been built alredy, due to fly in a month or two

>>33676243
...

...

Jesus that pic is just so perfectly Russian.

>>33676231
Ah, the Pee Wee Herman defense.

>>33676667
The point still stands. Le Pen is pro-Russian.

>>33675483

>t. jealous Amerifcan

Still butthurt it beat F-22 lol

>>33675594

It was made a long time ago. ASMP-A is new.

>>33676718
I appreciate that you have walked your claim back.

>>33676862
>Still butthurt it beat F-22 lol

Not according to the Rafale pilot.

>>33676885
I haven't.

>>33675160
>lol B61. Try a not outdated one like ASMP-A.

Nice to see dumbass euros itt

>>33675594
It's not. In fact the latest B61 upgrade, the B61-12, won't stop start production until 2019 or 2021. It was just certified as deplorable for from an F16 in the last couple of weeks

Also, literal lol @ anybody taking "the European army" seriously and @ anybody that genuinely thinks interoperability with EU forces is more important than with US forces

>>33662867
Buy Lockheed Martin I'm a stockholder there

>>33676922
won't start*

>>33676904
Your own words mean you have, now you just have to take the next step and acknowledge that not being openly hostile isn't the same thing as being pro XYZ.

>>33676922
deployable from* fucking phone posting

>>33676940
Can't help you, if you want to read it that way but the fact is that Le Pen gives Russia free pass on everything, she admires Putin and has promised to advance Russia's interest in France and Europe.

>>33676862

>>t. jealous Amerifcan

probably more French than you anon

>Still butthurt it beat F-22 lol

A T-38 got a sim kill on a raptor once, this is setting the pretty bar pretty low don't you think?

>>33675311
Vatnik pls

Only desperados are willing to join the Russia. Just look at Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea. All bunch of deluded split-aways, believing that Russia will improve their economy.

>>33662867
SU-35 but
>built in finland under finnish supervision by finnish workers
>different electronical systems

>>33677185
Ryssä pois!

>>33677185

>still shitty Russian engines that have 1/3 the life of western equivalents

>Big development costs

>giant as fuck 1980s air superiority airframe that doesn't fulfil Finland's requirements

>>33677225
>ryssä
ei haukuta ihmisiä saatana

>>33677266
atleast SU-35 is fully operational and not about to be scrapped by its developer country

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>>33677289
>ihmisiä

>>33677289
>not about to be scrapped by its developer country
you mean like the PAK-FA?

unless you're saying the F-335 is about to be scrapped

>>33676862
>It was made a long time ago
Fucking irrelevant. Does it still explode? Yes, yes it does.

Also that's false anyway as the B61 has been modernized multiple times you fucking tard.

>>33677185
Built in Finland by what aircraft industry?

>>33677360
Probably the same that assembled our Hornets.

>>33677289
>>33677318

I just pretend that he meant the Gripen NG.

>>33675460
the midget from st. petersburg looks like an average Finn already
They might as well just Oblast themselves now.
They would be one of the most prosperous Oblast in Russia.
Their skies would be defended by the elite and most expensive PAK-FA2 jets that arent even made yet, with the addition of the S400 triumph systems.
Yes, Finland would prosper even more as a part of Russia.

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>>33677727
Fuck off.

>>33665978
You also forgot one thing
>frog support.
After the gouging they did on the IAF M2000s upgrade i'm amazed they still get orders.

>>33662867
F-18 superhornets and Textron AirLand Scorpions