>Stopping power is just a fudd meme. It's all about shot

Sure, if you're a good shot. Test your aim at the roof of your mouth.

Assuming this isn't a fucking bait it isn't that complicated. The Argument is that the difference between 9mm and 45 is fucking minimal and that the stopping power shit is a meme now that 9mm been developed so much. Increased magazine capacity and similar ballistic performance > sotppin powa

>>33601198
>all black rounds

You are not hiding something here, don't you anon?

If you can't shoot worth a shit then you should definitely carry the biggest caliber you can. That way you can just intimidate them. A deagle or .500sw work well

>>33601206
Not an argument.
>>33601208
AHA! So you admit that stopping power is a real thing, that not all rounds kill as quickly. If 9mm kills faster than 22 LR because it makes a bigger hole that results in more bleeding, why wouldn't 45 ACP be that much better for the same reason? It has 60% more impact area. You can't have it both ways.
>>33601208
>Increased magazine capacity and similar ballistic performance > sotppin powa
So why not apply that same logic to 22 LR?

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>>33601198
>So I guess I should carry a .22lr then
Meh, it has it's highs and lows

>>33601244
>Not an argument.
No shit it's not an argument, I was agreeing with your post you faggot. Then I suggested you kill yourself, specifically for creating the 7th shittiest thread to ever drift through the catalog.

>>33601267
Assuming your chart is valid, it proves my original point that stopping power IS a thing.
>>33601283
>specifically for creating the 7th shittiest thread to ever drift through the catalog.
Yeah, well--you know--that's just your opinion, man.

>>33601244
>you can't have it both ways
You can when he's saying the difference between 22lr and 9mm is far greater than the difference between 9mm and 45acp. Stop being dense on purpose you cunt. They aren't saying stopping power aren't rael. They're saying the difference in stopping power between those two cartridges is minimal, so you're better off with more shots in 9mm.

>>33601283
>7th shittiest thread to drift through the catalog
what's 1-6?

>>33601267
Shotgun confirmed GOAT for home defense?

No; you should carry .22CB.

>>33601327
>They aren't saying stopping power aren't rael
No, that's literally what many 9mm advocates say. They insist that 9mm and 45 ACP are equal in stopping power. Admitting that 9mm sacrifices some stopping power in favor of capacity, price, and decreased recoil would be more intellectually honest.
>>33601347
I don't see any full size rifle rounds on that list.

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>>33601267
>.32 ACP

Actually used in combat. Literally unloaded a clip and target did not drop.

>>33601198
>rimmed, prone to misfeeds through any semi
>rimfire ignition is horribly unreliable compared to centerfire ignition
>the small few .22lr pistols designed for carry are cheap pieces of shit that exacerbate .22lr's existing problems by being cheap pieces of shit
Sure, go ahead.

>>33601343
>1) Applebees threads
>2) /arg/
>3) /akg/
>4) /brg/
>5) /knife faggots general/
>6) /gear queer general/
>7) Stoppin' powah threads (we are here)
>8) SHTF/Prepper threads
>9) Anything involving Zed
>10) HAPPENING threads

>>33601370
your post is vague, are you saying you used a 32ACP in combat and that you unloaded a clip on target and it did not drop?

what country are you from where 32acp is a military issue round? what range? how many hits? where did you hit?

>>33601198
>I don't understand the literal first grade concept of diminishing returns: The Post

>>33601383
happening threads are my favorite faggot. they are actually useful and help get news out. but only when its actually happening. not like /pol/ where faggots post happening threads for the stupidest damn shit

>>33601198
>stopping powah difference between 9mm and .45acp isn't significant

>HURR DURR SO I SHOULD JUST CARRY .22LR

>implying that the people who talk about how stopping power is a meme in the context of CCW are claiming that literally every bullet from .22 short to 50BMG is the same

>What is hydrostatic shock near a CNS area.

>>33601399
>but only when its actually happening
That's the reason they're shit: it's never actually happening. The one thread right before WW3 will be the one good happening thread before we all die

>>33601347
>Pump Action trash unless you want to spend $1400
>Can't maneuver in hallway
>Easy to get stolen from you
>Can't reload
>Can't reliably use under stress
>Heavy and bulky
>Still overpenetrates
>GOAT

No

>33601389
Off duty carry in Brazil.

Point blank range, 15 hits to center mass, arms, neck, shoulder and back of JHP.

Will elaborate later.

>>33601389
CZ had it as a military issue round for close to 40 years.
>vz. 61 Skorpion

Germany has had it as a military issue round nonstop since 1935. Poland used it as a military round briefly. Most sandnigger countries used it as a military issue round at least at some point. France still uses it as a military/paramilitary round.
>Walther PP, PPK. CZ vz. 61

The US briefly had it as a military issue round since general officers and some naval field-grade officers were actually issued Colt 1903's as duty guns.

>>33601421
>32acp
>JHP
No wonder he didn't stop, you were getting ~1" of penetration.

>>33601198
if you're going to be that bait, sure, go for it.

>>33601431
What do you mean by that?

>>33601410
>Hydrostatic shock
A meme
>What is hit to CNS area
Not a meme at all

Handgun rounds don't have the energy to balloon internal structures period

Intermediate rifle rounds and larger do, but hydrostatic shock is the concept of a shot to the leg causing brain or heart damage because lolwhatisphysics

>>33601413
no, i remember being on /k/ when the story broke about san bernardino shootings, i learned about it first from /k/. and the faggot mods kept deleting the threads while we were trying to figure out what guns were used and get links to the helicopter streams of the chase

>>33601244
Do the hoodrats in your town wear kevlar or something

>>33601198
Wrong argument. White shot placement is important it is also how many shots you can get out of each round successfully.

2 guys meet in the woods. Equal half ass gun training. 1 with a .22lr with 10 rds and the other with a .45 with 8 rds. (standard mags)

The shooter with the .22lr will most likely be able to correctly shoot hit target with multiple shots and make it to cover. While the .45 would have landed maybe 2 at best in that time while reaching cover.

Now you are playing a chance of shot placement. 4-6 .22lr hits vs 1-2 .45s (3 is to generous in control of a .45 and moving target while moving after first shot) no matter the size of the hole can make a huge difference if organ hit % are accounted for.

I'd go with a .22lr in most cases. If going against enemy's with protective vests and what not slowing them down then .45.

>>33601424
yeah i know countries had it as a round, i was asking that anon to say which country he was from. are you that anon? were you just talking shit out your ass like most faggots online, making up a fictional story and passing it off as real?

>>33601244
>>33601363
The argument is that the sacrifice is so minimal it doesn't fucking matter. 9mm has been developed for a long time since its been the NATO standard for so long. This has brought it up to near equal to the 45. Capacity is much greater advantage in this case.

>>33601421
shit, was he shooting back at you at the same time?

>>33601437
You should tell those guys getting published in the journal Neurosurgery that! man are they going to be embarassed when it turns out that they and all the other PHDs with studies from Iraq, to the czech republic, and USA have been wrong this whole time!

>>33601244
You do realize that bleed out is the OPPOSING argument to stoppan powah, not the SUPPORTING argument, right?

>>33601563
Neurosurgeons do not study ballistics you dumb twat

>>33601363
You're a fucking idiot arguing against a strawman - then complaining when you're presented with the actual thing. Neck yourself.

>>33601198
>implying there is any negligible difference between 9mm and .45 hollow points balistically

Your argument only applies to ball ammo, and since nobody uses that as carry ammo it's fucking irrelevant

>>33601589
Ballistic Neurosurgeons do. Shoot people and animals in the head all damn day.

>>33601563
those studies are most likely on rifle cartridges not pistol.

>>33601435
not that anon
pistol bullets kill by hitting something vital, or bleeding out, what you want is deep enough penetration and a big hole.
jhp sacrifices one for another, 32 acp only penetrates deep with fmj

What is this meme about 45 acp recoil being an issue?

How bout you niggas get a better handle on your gun.

>>33601589
You're right, they study the brain, in this case brains of people who have been shot tardcart. jeez, wonder what they might know about the effects of being shot on the brain better than a guy with a physics degree who makes a living off of saying "hydrostatic shock aint real!".

>>33601729
Most of them actually cover handguns and rifles, or test projectiles launched at a variety of speeds.

INB4 somebody hurr-durr muh fackler lithotripter argument

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>>33601530
He scored a solid hit a few inches next to my head into a cement wall.

Needless to say, that's the reason why i unloaded a mag into him.

>>33601729
He actually died later (i guess being shot 15 times had something to do with it), but i was impressed as to how he managed to fall on his face, then get up and walk away like if he was just drunk or something.

>>33601698
Medical resident here. Can confirm there is no such thing as a ballistic neruosurgeon

>>33601939
I am not aware of a single study on live animals that showed neurological damage or distant lesions on any projectile under 2200fps. Got links?

I'm also not aware of any pistol rounds going that fast.

>>33601198
Does a 22 pistol routinely get 12-18" penetration on calibrated gel? If so, go for it.

>>33601974
That's because anyone that meets them never survives.

>>33601399
>not like /pol/ where faggots post happening threads for the stupidest damn shit
>TRUMP SNEEZED! TANKS IN 30! IT'S HAPPENING!

No fucking shit. Saw one this morning that was so fucking retarded that I think the janitors cleaned it because it's not in the catalog or archive. The mods really should have first offence permanent bans for every rule because it's fucking ridiculous over there.

>>33601516
>If going against enemy's with protective vests and what not slowing them down then .45.
9mm*

>>33602038
On animals:
Strasbourg goat tests
Suneson et al
Wang et al
and i believe Courtney & Courtney, although IIRC how much was animal models and how much was theory craft.

Case study on humans:
Sturtevant et al(stu98)

The gist of them is that with electron microscopy and/or chemical testing minute levels of neurological damage can occur at values as low as 100ft/lbs and become easily observed around 550ft/lbs.

>>33601198
You forgot about penetration faggot.
Which surprises me what with you being gay and all.

>>33602301
oh and forgot one other for humans,

Krajsa, J. Příčiny vzniku perikapilárních hemoragií v mozku při střelných poraněních (Causes of pericapillar brain haemorrhages accompanying gunshot wounds), Institute of Forensic Medicine, Faculty of Medicine

Which shows brain hemorrhage on both rifle and handgun injuries to the chest.

>>33601198
apples to oranges
no rimfire.
I carry .25 acp

>>33602301
Cool, so just punching someone in the chest with an overhand right should cause hydrostatic shock.

500ft/lbs isn't shit. How much is required to even break skin in a .38 projectile.

>>33601198
No, you should carry a .50 desert eagle. Because the only thing that matters at all is "muh stoppin powa"

>>33601267
.357 Mag master race

>>33602686
Maybe if the impact occurs over a small fraction of the time it normally would, inside the chest cavity and near a major blood vessel.

>>33602821
Dudes get hit in the noggin with harder than that (want to say Foreman hit over 900ft/lbs) and keep going, sometimes even without a concussion from brain hitting skull. Without knowing exactly how much bruising they saw, I'm going to say the particular animals physiology played a much larger role in those results then the bullet.

I appreciate their scientific approach, but Wang and group are going to have to quantify how unconscious those goats and pigs became. "We saw some apnea and reduced EKG" isn't enough.

Logically speaking, if low velocity rounds were routinely causing incapacitation, we'd all be still using .38s and bum-fuck nowhere PDs wouldn't cover failure-to-stop drills.

>>33601969
>i guess being shot 15 times had something to do with it

My sides just shot themselves and are still on their way to Jupiter

>>33601969
scary, what would really fuck with my mind if i was you, was that if he could get up and walk away, he could have kept shooting too after you were out of bullets

>>33602909
1. the vast majority of hydrostatic shock studies, those that i mentioned and others involving rifle rounds, indicate that it is a very unreliable phenomena. that is to say that some individuals show clear signs of neurological damage while some show none whatsoever despite similar shot placement and rounds being utilized. a study by veterinarians culling cape buffalo focused on this fact a bit for instance.

2. getting hit in the head isn't nearly the same thing as being shot. the impact occurs over a larger area, a significantly longer period of time, and the force is applied outside of the musculo-skeletal system which is great at distributing and absorbing such forces. the kind of pressure wave(low duration, high intensity oscillations for gunshots) isn't the same, the peak forces aren't in the same league, and they aren't applied in a similar place/fashion. Due to this the suggestion that punches not causing a TBI(even though they can, and have been known to in some cases at very low levels) seems to be of limited or no merit IMO.

3. Courtney and courtney offers some more specifics on clarifying the effects in some of their papers. The lower end of effects essentially cause no noticeable changes, then you hit low level(level 1) concussion area where short term effects are slight but likely noticeable both at the time and under post mortem examination. beyond this you see more pronounced effects like EEG and apnic effects which in combination with acute hypovolemia and a possible baroreflex would be likely to contribute either to some degree or substantially to incapacitation SOME of the time. As energy increases so does the frequency of occurrence. Even then most of this phenomena(besides nerve damage) won't be apparent on autopsy.

>>33601244
"Stopping power" is relative.

Of course when you compare two largely different calibers "Stopping power" is going to be an element. Stopping power is a fudd meme in the sense that there is no appreciable difference between something like a 9mm and .45 ACP.

>>33603177
>As energy increases so does the frequency of occurrence.

I'm just going to ask since you've clearly already read these. Anything vaguely approaching an energy/ratio or even velocity/ratio of incapacitation graph?

>>33604143
Let me further explain why I'm asking. How do they control for garden variety shock from being shot.

I ask because I've seen a shot right through the hindquarters on a whitetail kill the animal. Terribly shot by my cousin, but the animal fell over and never got up. By the time we got there, he'd bleed to death. I can only imagine it was shock that killed him, since that was nothing even vaguely approaching a vital hit.

>>33601206

This

>>33601208

>now that 9mm been developed so much

It still is inferior. You are not John Wick, you will only ever engage 1-2 people with a handgun. If you are trying to say you are a fgt who need 12 rounds PER person then you need not only more practice, but a larger gun.

>>33601198
>>33601244
.22 lr has perfectly adequate power for self defense. The only reason people don't recommend it for defense use is that it's rimfire, and centerfire guns are usually more reliable. The reason people go for 9mm is that its cheaper than smaller rounds like .380, .32, .25, etc. And there are plenty of high capacity guns for it, while the same isn't true for those other rounds. 5.7 does what 9mm does better pretty much, except there's only one fuckhuge pistol that shoots it and both the round and gun are expensive.

As others have said, """powerful""" handguns are a meme for combat.

>>33604414
If someone is shot with a 9mm and isn't incapacitated, a shot to the same spot with .45 or 10millimemer or a .357 wouldn't have stopped him either.

>>33604232
I don't see how that would be a problem. Medically(and strictly) speaking shock is a blanket term for a phenomena that results in the lose of circulatory function(hypoperfusion). Pretty much it just means that blood and oxygen aren't getting where they need to go. Shock is a somewhat misleading term, and individual or animal in shock is still functional for the majority of shock(specifically hypovolemic shock). Shock via blood loss does not on it's own result in unconsciousness in an instantaneous fashion.

Garden variety shock as you call it in such an experiment would merely be what happens when the animal loses blood sufficient to be medically serious.

Due to the fact that even under major hemorrhage(severed ascending aorta at the top of the heart) a human being for example has a MINIMUM of 4-5s of time before losing consciousness(due to hypovolemia alone) any time a human or large animal drops instantly after being shot it is not the result of shock but some other phenomena. Broadly these are separated as psychological and physical reasons.

In the case of the deer you mentioned it would seem likely(in my only somewhat better than layman's opinion FWIW) that the deer simply fainted(syncope) due to any combination of reasons. The exact combination of reasons for said fainting is the heart of the hydrostatic shock argument. Some would say that it was purely psycological, or the bullet somehow directly damaged the CNS(non hydrostatic crowd) while i would personally contend that it was likely the result of a combination of synergistic biological effects and biological/psychological predisposition(hydrostatic shock).

>>33601244
I actually agree. Most defensive handgun engagements are within 3-5 yards. Probably would be fine to scramble an attackers guts and chest and neck and face with 30 .22mag rounds instead of 2-3 9mm or 45s. 30 holes, and that fucker is staying down.

>>33605482
whoops ended up longer than i wanted and i accidentallyd some parts.

1. many of those experiments specifically noted observable neurological damage on autopsy along with EKG breathing irregularities occurring too soon after bullet impact to be caused by blood loss. shock would certainly not cause the first and almost certainly not the second.

2. meant to say that for the deer id guess it was probably syncope leading into blood loss which kept it down. syncope likely induced by some combination of baroreflex, possible TBI, blood loss, and maybe other factors specific to "hydrostatic shock". Perhaps it may have even regained consciousness at some point in between the syncope/hypovolemia induced coma, but did not stir for whatever psychological reasons. OTOH blood loss may have been bad enough that it never did.

>>33601383
WTF is wrong with Applebees? Firecracker Shrimp Cavatappi is the shizznit.

>>33601244
>AHA!
calm down there, 9mm is the best not because you can carry more 9mm in a gun than any other caliber, or because it's the most powerful, it's best because it has the best balance between the two (and other factors like weight, cost, availability, etc.)

>>33601363
>No, that's literally what many 9mm advocates say.
and it's not what the people in this thread said.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

>>33605635
Taytay I love you but pls go

>>33601665
>>33605783
It's not a strawman. There are plenty of 9mm advocates who have actually said that. Here is one egregious example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NR3roFBYNU

>>33601198
Volume of fire > shot placement
.22s generally have poor capacity due to rimmed cartridges not playing nice in doublestack magazines
Get a 9mm instead with an extendo magazine. Make sure to turn it sideways so the recoil is sideways instead of vertical so you can use it to line shots up against other assailants.