Which would win? Which would you rather have supporting you?

F35 if he has time to rearm after expending all his ammo.

Obviously anyone would take 60 planes over one, and it depends on the opponent, do they have AA capabilities?

>>33576033
Convince me why i should buy 60 toucans if i can buy 500 IL-2s

>>33576059
kek

File: 20170408161431_1.jpg (384KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

384KB, 1920x1080px

>>33576059
I cant

>>33576069
is that a il2-37?

>>33576067
>>33576069
But really tho

>almost Protection againist small arms fire(7,62)
>Have a lot of cheap unguided munitions
>Can shred infantry with 23mms
>Can destroy light vehicles with PTABs
>Really cheap to bjuy, produce and operate
>Can easily train pilots

Sounds like almost perfect counter insurgency plane

>>33576059
this

File: Screenshot_72.png (47KB, 166x131px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 166x131px

>>33576086
No, it is early variant with 20mm, or 1942 with 23mm, i forgot.

>>33576033
>Both have the same operational costs.

fallacy

Is it viable to install longer range anti air missiles on planes like the Toucan or the IL-2? I know the Toucan can carry sidewinder missiles, but could they effectively operate missiles like an AIM120 or a AIM132?

>>33576093
i am not disgreeing, but why not a il10?

>>33576139
Neither have radars

File: 20170408201715_1.jpg (432KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

432KB, 1920x1080px

>>33576086
like this anon said its a IL-2M with 23mm cannons
>>33576101

>>33576153
Because IL-10 is basically the same as IL-2 and was designed just because Stalin told designer to design a new plane?

>>33576093
They called it "Stalin's Concrete Bomber" for a reason

>>33576157
so a il2-m?

>>33576156
I thought the question "could you install a radar on either of those aircraft" was already implied.

>>33576190
not easily

>>33576226
sellotape and vodka?

File: 20170408201720_1.jpg (281KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

281KB, 1920x1080px

>>33576162
yup

>>33576139
Sure, but it would be expensive and would either necessitate a rebuilt or impact the aerodynamics.

>>33576251
the il 2 IS a impact to areodynamics

how much does an IL-2 cost?
because inb4 >>33576235
radar is more expensive than plane

>>33576258
Truly the Soviets thought of everything. Il-2 with radar pods when?

>>33576290
its heavy allready, could it carry radar?

>>33576266
well there is only one left flying in existence ,unless you want to restore a mothballed display one

>>33576313
use your imagination anon

>>33576313
how much does a Radar-Pod cost on average?
iirc they rebuilt Ju-87 in the US for roughly 3-4 million from scratch

File: at802.jpg (33KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 600x450px

>>33576059
Well, I don't think they're made anymore.

As for Super Tucano alternatives though, the Air Tractor AT-802 has similar aesthetics to the IL-2.

>>33576308
They could carry bombs, so I see no reason why not.

>>33576342
up to 600kg of bombs.
would be enough?

File: 1488877038670.gif (899KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

899KB, 600x600px

>>33576328
>Radar-Pod

>>33576371
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104604/anasq-236-radar-pod.aspx

>>33576394
Thats not suitable for use with AMRAAMs like we were talking about, friend.

Its a very different kind of radar

File: Piper_PA48_Enforcer_USAF.jpg (271KB, 1800x1179px) Image search: [Google]

271KB, 1800x1179px

>>33576334
I like the Piper Enforcer myself...

>You will never remove kebab in a souped up, modernized P-51

>>33576416
MANPAD bait

>>33576360
Easily.

>>33576033
>Both have the same operational costs.
Maintenance and training cost though there is a vast difference.

>>33576426
They all are.

>>33576033
The side with more planes dumbass. You can't have air superiority with one aircraft.

>>33576059
you will need to spend more pilots to accomplish the simplist tasks

>>33576033

Easy answer.

The F-35 would obviously knock out the STs before many of them even saw them or got in range.

If I needed support however I would like the 60 Tucan Sams backing me up obviously.

>>33576414
I dunno, I thought there might be tech to add an adhoc pod for AA operations.

>>33576426
>MANPAD
MANPADS, the plural is part of the acronym.
MAN Portable Air Defense System.

>>33576033
>enemy has tunguskas, and S-200s
F-35

>enemy is sandpeople with one MANPAD they can't use
Blot out the sun

File: images (7).jpg (8KB, 300x168px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 300x168px

I am utterly tired of people rooting against modern planes out of stupid nostalgy and going to retarded length to try to justify their arguments.

Why the fuck would you want to make convoluted refitting to slap extremely complex and high-techs solutions to rustic and inexpensive planes?
it does not make any sense at all.

No ammount of Tucans could cover the kind of missions the F-35 was designed for.
Maybe a zerg rush could overcome the enemy AA systems but at what cost? you'd be losing wings and pilots at a WW2 rate, especially considering old ass solutions like soviets ZSUs would be enough.

You want close air support?
use mother fucking attack helicopters, they can over there much longer.
Are they susceptible to MANPADS? of course, but pretty much as much as a Tucan would be.

yes the F35 is expensive and expensive to maintain, and it's definitely not the best fire suport in an asymetric war like what's going on in the middle east.
But ffs that's not it's main use and there are plenty of alternatives for that.

>>33577027
All the turboprops in this thread are, yes

File: landscape-1457716531-ov10.jpg (273KB, 1600x800px) Image search: [Google]

273KB, 1600x800px

>>33576033

Flight hour cost might be same for aircraft, but you would need much more mechanics and pilots to operate those 60 Tucanos. That being said it is also apples and oranges comparison, USAF should have both kinds of aircraft in their inventory.

Planes like Super Tucano or pic related are ideal platforms for arranging meetings between illiterate bronze age savages with AK's and their 72 virgins. Saves fast movers for operations involving enemy with air defense capability.

Fighters, bombers, COIN planes, drones and attack helicopters aren't competitors to each other, but complementing systems.

>>33576139

You probably could integrate podded radar to it, but it we back to apples and oranges situation with fighter and COIN plane. It probably wouldn't make any fucking sense.

>>33577414

Same applies to piston engined aircraft like IL-2 as well. Modern MANPADS can easily target piston engine plane developed before IR seekers were a thing, we aren't living in early 70's when first practical MANPADS came up and only thing those could target was jet exhaust.

>>33577235
Easier answer: F-35 destroys the airfields they use while they can't approach the F-35's bases. They lose all logistics and can't fly anymore.

File: 1491680700572.png (215KB, 1546x758px) Image search: [Google]

215KB, 1546x758px

>>33577879

>>33577905
>What are fuel depots, ammo dumps, hangars, and control systems
Reminder that SDB-Is can be fired in bunker buster mode.

>>33577905
Also, Super Taco combat radius is half that of the F-35, so the Lightning II can refuel and resortie with impugnity.

>>33577905
Tomahawks carry 1000 pounds of HE, generally speaking you want to use specialized munitions like a Durandal to hit runways.

File: 1491660130708.jpg (25KB, 236x339px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 236x339px

>>33577951

>super taco

File: triple.png (26KB, 487x380px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 487x380px

>>33577235
>>33577879
>>33577951

Pic related.

One is high performance fighter that is expensive as hell to operate. Other is armed trainer for COIN operations and pilot training. Complementing system with limited overlap in mission profiles.

>>33577960

True, but there are alternatives to Tomahawk optimized for bunker busting, cratering and shieet.

Cratering effect is combination of kinetic energy and explosive power. Penetrating capability can be enhanced with alternate means for cratering stuff and penetrating bunkers. Stuff like precursor shaped charge is useful for penetrating stuff with subsonic cruise missiles.

Mephisto (Multi-Effect Penetrator, HIgh Sophisticated and Target Optimised) used in Taurus KEPD and BROACH (Bomb Royal Ordnance Augmented CHarge) used in SCALP/Stormshadow. Americans have similar warheads for AGM-158 JASSM and AGM-86D CALCM and Tomahawk. One for Tomahawk is called Joint Multi-Effects Warhead System (JMEWS).

>>33578153

>One is high performance fighter that is expensive as hell to operate. Other is armed trainer for COIN operations and pilot training.

Yeah we know. But it's day/k/are time. It's like that movie Stand by me where they argue if Mighty Mouse can take on Superman.

Better yet it's a 100 Army Rangers vs 10,000 Redcoats 2.0.

File: Chill Ape.gif (2MB, 311x362px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 311x362px

>>33576059
This is outside the box thinking

>>33576334
>Air Tractor
>Aesthetics
Pick one.

File: 1467422914819.png (161KB, 540x527px) Image search: [Google]

161KB, 540x527px

>>33578153

>>33576426
You could say the same thing about the A-10 or Frogfoot if it wasn't for flares.

>>33578251

SOCOM has begged USAF for getting something similar to Super Tucano since wars in Afghanistan and Iraq began. Minor spending for US defense budget, yet that has triggered massive institutional resistance from USAF.

It is kinda ironic how much kids on tibetan basket waving forum resemble staff officers involved in pentagon turf wars.

>>33578497
That's more because of how congress keeps pushing back against A-10 retirement. They'll probably go for something along those lines for COIN if sufficient justification can be found for the niche if drones and multi-roles aren't fully effective.

>>33576069
Which game is that?

>>33578260
Flares haven't been effective in a long time.

the A-10 and Su-25 ARE MANPAD bait, though. Not sure why you think otherwise. Lost multiple A-10s to them to the point they were replaced by F-16s

File: is this nigger for real.jpg (22KB, 560x428px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 560x428px

>>33577285
well done

>>33579079
War Thunder

File: reaper.jpg (407KB, 1600x1089px) Image search: [Google]

407KB, 1600x1089px

>>33576033
Reapers already do the job that a Super Tucano would do, only better.

>>33579130
>Can't GUNSGUNSGUNS

>>33579138
A truly fucking useless feature on a fixed wing aircraft. If you want that, call in a helicopter gunship.

A million wright brother planes.

Just use a bunch of Po-2s.

>>33576371
Radar-Pod™
Brought to you by Ancap Industries™

>>33578153
>Joint Multi-Effects Warhead System
>Joint Effect Warhead System

>>33579167
>he doesn't know about the A-10's GAU-8 glorious BRRRRRRRRRT

>>33576059

why not i;-20s?

>>33576033
The 60 Super Tucanos would zerg at treetop altitude towards the F-22's airbase and turn everything there into crap.

File: 31A509BD00000578-0-image-a-29_1456660299165 (1).jpg (146KB, 634x423px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 634x423px

>>33578231

File: il20-2.jpg (80KB, 950x386px)

80KB, 950x386px

>>33579930

fugg

>>33576033
The F-35 until it runs out of ammo, possibly 10 sidewinders and 180 GAU-22 shells. Should be enough to reliable take down 10 Tucanos and maybe 1 with the gun because >guns
Then, with no means of offense, it would either retreat and reload, if allowed, or be forced to land when out of fuel and get strafed.

>toucans
'k

>>33576139

let's put it this way:

the A-10 doesn't have AMRAAMs.

>>33579925
>Worse than just using a JDAM

>>33580000
>Never detected by Tacos
>Free to return to airbase far outside Taco range and reload

>>33580042
Provided the F-35 CAN reload, it's unstated in the rules of the situation.
If it can, then of course it'll win.
Sweet humanity, shooting down 80 twin-seated aircraft.

Oh, I didn't even notice my GET.

>>33576156
>P-38 Lightning
>enlarge central pod
>add fancy new AESA LPI radar
>add additional generators to engines
>switch engines to turboprops
>fancy new props
>arm with CUDA missiles

Tada Bolivia, your new fighter.

>>33576033
I imagine a whole bunch of death out of nowhere then nothing. They will never see it coming or have any recourse. The survivors will carry on to whatever their original mission was, but probably will also die.

>>33580050
CUDAs. 12 internal, probably another 16 external + a pair of sidewinders. That's half the Taco fleet in one sortie.

And again, combat radius twice that of the Taco, so it cam stroke from a base far outside the Taco's ability to reach.

>>33579925
The point being made is precisely that the gun is fucking worthless.

You should learn how to read.

>>33576033
The bottom one, because the top one won't even make it to the area before being shot to shit or on the off chance they do, long after my corpse has been posed in hilarious but demeaning ways on Haji Instagram.

File: ov-10d19.jpg (242KB, 1515x1176px) Image search: [Google]

242KB, 1515x1176px

>>33579053

A-10 coming back again and again due to spending on certain politicians electoral districts and pressure from Army/Marines are certainly linked issues. But staff officers are fundamentally politicians themselves, regardless of service branch, if they aren't politicians only way they become generals is due to system failure. They will skew things in favor of their own in group within service branch. Fighter, bomber, airlift and missile folks within USAF. Surface warships, subs and aviation in Navy. Cut budgets here and there from pet projects of other communities in favor of pet projects of their own community. On larger scale services try to get their projects prioritized over projects of other service branches.

Add post retirement careers with defense contractors and their subcontractors into mix and we are starting get close to why most countries military procurement chains have their own quirks and ways to be dysfunctional.

More time you spend with staff officers, more you want to get as far as possible from them and more you question is humanity worth saving.

>>33579130

Drones are better for some missions, worse for others when compared to manned turboprop. Complementing systems, not competing systems.

>>33579167

Planes like Super Tucano operate on half the engine power when compared to attack helicopters, while having better range/loiter time, higher service ceiling, smaller logistical footprint and usually fixed wing turboprops are slight faster. Yet this is another case complementing systems

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6iI9NfNTpk

>>33579925

Possibly leading cause of friendly fire in US military for last decade and half.

>>33580042
>>33580050

While this discussion is still retarded as fuck. Remaining 30 something Tucanos might have range to reach base where F-35 is being refueled and reloaded while said activity is still going on and drop bunch of iron bombs and fire bunch of hellfires on it.

>>33576033
>same operational cost
>1 pilot vs 60

Hmmm

>>33580539
>While this discussion is still retarded as fuck. Remaining 30 something Tucanos might have range to reach base where F-35 is being refueled and reloaded while said activity is still going on and drop bunch of iron bombs and fire bunch of hellfires on it.
Only if they never plan to return home.

>>33580764
Le Toucan has a flight cost of $500 dollars per hour.
The F-35 has a cost of more than $30k dollars per hour.

>>33576059
why would I buy 500 IL-2s if I could have 500,000,000 Canadian geese?

Remember, it just takes one goose to take down an aircraft.

>>33579951
>talking about aircraft, posts picture of Detroit riot aftermath.

>>33581289

Pilots and ground crews need to be paid, housed, fed and supplied. Operational costs include stuff other than fuel costs, especially if they are going to use weapons.

>>33580000
F-35 can loiter longer than a toucan, and just wait for them to run out of fuel with no weapons expended. flawless technical victory.

Why not both?

>>33581289
Super Tucano has a $1000 CPFH:
> Gilbert said the A-29’s historical operating cost is $1,000 per hour

Also, that first name:
>Taco Gilbert, vice president of Sierra Nevada’s tactical intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance business.
http://aviationweek.com/defense/first-super-tucano-accepted-us-air-force

I wonder if he has an A-29 named Super Taco after him.

F-35 with bayonet.