What if, instead of tilting a pistols barrel down to unlock from

>>33458886
Slide is typically more massive, so more reciprocating mass during cycling. Also then you don't get the angle advantage for feeding the next round.

>>33458886
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgOicEVA4u8&t=9m37s

>neva been done befo!

>>33458913
Why would the slide be heavier than on a tilting barrel?

>>33458886
So a Jatimatic in handgun form?

>>33458989
Apparently my brain outpaced my typing. I meant that in addition to the regular motion of the slide, it now has to move up & down instead of just the barrel tilting something something vectors something. Really it's just more complex than it needs to be.

>>33458969
That isn't what I've proposed at all, it's just moving the barrel down instead of tilting it. What I've thought of is moving the slide down to unlock it while it moves back with the barrel.

>>33458995
No, a short recoil pistol is nothing like a straight blowback submachine gun.

>>33459035
It may seem complex in its movement, but this mechanism would require no more parts than a Glock. The slide would be guided down as it moves backwards, just like a Glocks barrel tilting down.

>>33459307
err, ok
better illustrations or you're full of shit

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>>33459427
It'd just look like this but on a larger scale, with the whole slide being moved down by the frame instead of just a locking piece. I don't know exactly how it'd work, but it's certainly possible.

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Bump

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Bump because I'm the next JMB and you are all jealous of my superior intellect

You know I was just thinking about a blowback 9mm that had two flat springs either in the slide or the frame that would provide extra resistance.

Think of it like HKs roller setup, but with a standard recoil around the barrel +2 flat springs that arch outward and eventually contact a surface with some manner of bump that has to be overcome. Not so much a locking system as a way of slowing the slide enough to be safe

>>33461222
You've gotta draw that out, it sounds very interesting but I don't quite understand.

>>33461365
It's a roller delay system but instead of rollers it's leaf springs, is what I gathered.

>>33461222
That wouldn't do anything. Roller delayed blowback doesn't work because the rollers are held by spring pressure, it works because it forces a heavier piece back to delay the moving of the lighter bolt.

>>33461443
Roller delayed blowback works because the distance required to 'unlock' the bolt is longer than straight blowback.

>>33461464
Whatever you're trying to say, you're wrong. There is no locking in a delayed blowback action.

>>33461480
Yea, hence the quotes. Not wrong, you just don't know shit.

I would just like to say that the tilting barrel system is fucking retarded and any gun that is locked by the breech should be encased in pure sodium and launched into a california resivoir

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>>33461541
"Ifa weapon with an inertia bolt were to be designed for 7.62 x 51 NATO ammunition, the bolt would have to weigh approximately 14 kg or 31 lbs.

To reduce this weight, much too high for practical purposes, without increasing the corresponding cartridge case extraction velocity (which could cause the cartridge to burst), the HK roller locked bolt is built in two sections. In such a manner that during a certain time, the bolt head, driven by the cartridge case as it slides out, imparts a velocity greater than its own to the bolt head carrier, connected to it by a roller transmission.

Thus the bolt head drives the bolt head carrier by means of an interposed transmission."

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=133:technical-engineering-detail-of-the-g3&catid=4:special-topics&Itemid=5
You sure are a gun master anon.

>>33461365
Pretty much this >>33461384

>>33461443
The idea is to use it in the same manner that rate reducers work. Just replacing raw weight with friction and a speed bump via springs without having a giant hi-point slide

>>33461222
If I understand correctly, I think it would have the wrong effect (delayed blowback needs strongest resistance at the start of the recoil stroke, and then softer resistance for the rest of the cycle; yours would be essentially constant resistance until your leaf springs contacted the bumpers, at which point resistance would suddenly increase). You might be onto something though - maybe a regressive spring (i.e. a stack of steep conical disc springs), instead of a leaf spring, could yield the desired effect.
>>33461443
This too, both roller and lever delayed blowback use inertia amplified through some sort of mechanical advantage for resistance, not direct spring pressure. Using spring pressure alone is possible but would make it more difficult to charge by hand.

>>33461870
>>33461857
I'm liking where this is going, everyone keep in mind that the hudson mfg pistol has a ridiculous amount of empty space surrounding the guide rod, maybe we can make that space useful in this design, by moving this sort-of-vector recoil system in font of the breech? or would that not work for some reason?
>I'm currently trying to imagine the beretta92 locking lever up front, but seeing the redistributed weight as a downside

since the slide goes down a few mm's(i assume) where does it go?

>>33458886
Best design is Bergman with a locking piece that cams to unlock barrel from slide.

>>33461857
If effective delayed blowback were as easy as adding a few leaf springs, the Hi Point wouldn't exist. I saw a gun on Forgotten Weapons a while back with a "spring delayed blowback" system, and as expected the spring didn't do shit. Any spring that could do anything wouldn't let you open the action by hand.

>>33462247
not saying your wrong, but modern metallurgical tech has advanced a shitton since 1900's. additionally, most fuddlore persists from that time and rejects innovation out of hand whenever something new is attempted, sure sometimes it's correct, but it is never 100% warranted to say "no, a german tried that once in 1879 and it sucked, dont bother"

>>33462418
fucking
>you're

>>33462418
Not saying you're wrong either, but I'm not sure how much metallurgical tech has to do with this — seems mostly a mechanical issue.

>>33462206
But it's more complex than a Glock, and a few millimeters lower bore axis isn't worth that trade-off. A gun with the falling slide mechanism could have all the simplicity of a tilting barrel, and a lower bore axis.

>>33461870
I get what you're saying, but that would be dependent on how the springs were setup wouldn't it. The whole idea is to be an even lazier version roller delay.

I wish I could remember what I was tinkering with that gave me the idea. Something mundane like the little friction locks on cabinet door or the dam sliders inside of drawers probably

>>33462506
well if we compare some german space magic p4s (maybe p9s i forget, they both use rollers, thats the important part) to the somewhat similar roller locked or delayed cz 52 there is a common thread

the hk system has a solid block that required some fine machining to get it to work properly and smoothly, and some part of that mechanism that telescoped iirc
the czech pistol has issues with weaker metal, the parts themselves are not very complicated or requiring fine machining, if they were made with better metal, it would be a much more reliable gun than it is

>>33462164
So the thing about the vector is that the recoil mechanism itself isn't what helps tame recoil. It's the fact that the whole action is in front of the shooters hand. It's like the inking recoil of the AR. The mechanism is just the best they could come up with to make that happen without having some weirdo pseudo-bolt on either side of the action or long recoil

>>33462506
Lots of guns have died just because of metallurgy. Look at the SP101 vs the LCR or older generations of the same gun to see the difference it can make. It's always said that top break revolvers aren't strong enough for modern ammo but the fact that the rex every existed contests that. Material science and mechanical design owe a lot to each other

>>33462247
As for this,sometimes it's a matter of the designers capabilities. Especially with guns of that time period. Often times the idea are better than the execution. Not saying this is one if those times but fuck it, it's fun to play with

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>>33462798
>>33462692
oic

>>33462637
>the little friction locks on cabinet door
Like pic related? Maybe you're on to something with that — some kind of toggle-locking arm or rocker system.

>>33462703
>the recoil mechanism itself isn't what helps tame recoil. It's the fact that the whole action is in front of the shooters hand
Maybe, I guess? i've never seen one irl let alone shot it, but the whole part about the bolt carrier or buffer redistributing its weight down in addition to the bore axis being at like middle knuckle level seemed to be the biggest factor.

for the purposes of OPs idea though, I wasnt thinking about controlling or mitigating it, i was just wondering where it could even be directed.
for example, the whole slide unlocking down 2-3 mm's doesnt do much in re-directing energy, it's still gotta travel back towards the shooter, but HOW exactly would the slide travel down that couple of mm's? at first i was thinking strictly slide-in frame, but then the 92 locking lever made me think, what if the slide had locking levers and the frame had an additional set of rails for that locking lever? on the outside, it would look like a normal tilting barrel style pistol, but inside the slide would be some kind of retaining lever riding the frame

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>>33462889
>locking levers
You mean the Beretta's locking block? I don't see why the slide couldn't simply be guided down by rails in the frame.

>>33463107
yeah I was refrencing that, but in the OP type thing i was thinking of two opposing levers in the sides of the slide

>guided down by rails in the frame.
explain, because except for the frame and barrel being all weird like the jatimatic another anon was thinking of, I cant see a remotly robust system doing that without being excessivley complicated
>even my dual levers in-slide riding and locking in-frame seems a little delicate to me

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>>33463225
Here, drew up the very basic idea. If you can guide a barrel to tilt down you can surely guide a slide down too.

>>33463622
Also just realized I didn't actually move the slide down in the drawing, just its locking/guiding bits. My mistake.

>>33463107
>TFW I see how many moving parts are in my Beretta

Fuck I hope I never have to take it apart.

>>33463622
the problem with that is that now you have the mass of the slide exerting its force plus recoil on just a couple of tiny little pegs in a channel, whereas a barrel is only moving for a very short distance and being stopped by any larger part of the frame

here is where metallurgy really comes into play, those little pegs would easily get sheared off after a while, not to mention allowing for debris to get into the guiding channel. one could make them [the pegs] out of hardened steel, but then the channel/rails would have to be made out of something of similar hardness, and we see production costs rise

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>>33463677
>how many moving parts
HAHAHAHA

Why would I want a handgun that bucks even more wildly?

>>33463741
you are the reason gun manufacturers started putting "read manual before use" on their guns

>>33459307
>but this mechanism would require no more parts than a Glock. The slide would be guided down as it moves backwards

How would you pivot a slide? It runs on rails, you can't just curve them.

You're just going to end up with a Luger, and no one builds those anymore because they're unnecessarily complex and expensive.

>>33463741
So you can go buck wild?

>>33463778
You just gave me the coolest most unccesary idea
FUCKING BEARINGS

>>33463778
>How would you pivot a slide? It runs on rails, you can't just curve them.
You can in theory, but it requires considerably more machining precision that straight rails, so it'll likely be over-expensive and unreliable.

>>33463822
>You can in theory
Only by reducing one of the rails to a couple of pins. I doubt that it would be possible to construct such a design that would have any useful longevity. Even if it could be done, it would certainly be inferior to a toggle.

>>33463822
>>33463778

I've been thinking about that, I cant remember what its called, but theres a mechanical mechanism where a peg (or short section of rail similar to*) rides a channel to a portion that is part of a *dial that rotates a few degrees* and redirects the peg to another channel. I'm postitive its been used in some lmg action or another
inspo here
>http://imgur.com/gallery/Dl01a

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>>33463778
>>33463622
Why couldn't you curve them? This has nothing in common with toggle locked guns.
>>33463707
The drawing is shit, it wouldn't actually look like that. But I don't get how four big locking lugs holding in the slide wouldn't be sufficient. The Beretta 92 has problems with it's relatively tiny locking block, but usually only after 20000+ rounds. The Glocks barrel just slams into a locking block.

>>33463949
>Why couldn't you curve them?
Ever pulled apart a handgun? Rails are typically somewhat substantial. Even the abbreviated frame rails on plastic fantastics are much too long to run along a curved track sufficient to move the slide down off the locking lugs.

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>>33463986
So you're saying it's impossible to add curved chunks of metal to the ends of these rails? Looks like there's plenty of room to me.

>>33461792
>"Ifa weapon with an inertia bolt were to be designed for 7.62 x 51 NATO ammunition, the bolt would have to weigh approximately 14 kg or 31 lbs.
I want to see that.

>>33463949
>This has nothing in common with toggle locked guns.
Uh, yeah, it does. All the toggle in a Luger is, is a jointed slide. The joints are merely the practical way to unlock the slide from the barrel.

I would not at all be surprised if the Luger is the result of engineers having the same thought that caused you to start this thread, a century ago.

>>33463949
> This has nothing in common with toggle locked guns.
I agree, I'm not even sure why it was brought up

>The drawing is shit, it wouldn't actually look like that.
its fine as a visual concept aid
But I'll say again, short recoil barrels, whether beretta's, linked or linkless browning tilt, only move a very short distance, with a limited range of motion. trying to translaate that action to a slide, where youve got more mass with a considerably larger amount of travel and a different type of force being enacted on it, would require a different mechanism to be viable
Having big locking lugs in the slide instead of rails travelling that distance would simply make the pistol needlessly big
>>33464047
then where does the slide go? does it just sit 3mm above the frame all the un-fired time? do you stick the slide inside, a-la CZ75, and make the frame rails pegs, riding channels cut into the outside of the slide, exposing it to the elements?

i think you shuold give up on making the slide move in an un-traditional manner, and start looking more at coming up with an un-traditional locking system

>>33464099
>czeched
>a jointed slide
neat, I hadn't considered that

>>33464047
Oh, no, it's not impossible. You could certainly break a gun.

>>33458886

So basically a pistol that uses a roller delay system? Cause that's basically what G3/CETME do and that's what I'm getting at with this whole thread.

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>>33463778
>It runs on rails, you can't just curve them.
If they're circular for the entire length there shouldn't be a problem. If the radius of curvature varies things get a bit trickier (and sloppier)...

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I'm sure it's clear I haven't entirely thought this through. I still believe I'm on to something here, but feel free to let the thread slide now that I'm done defending my idea. And thanks for all your criticisms, they're more helpful than you could possibly imagine.

>>33464225
not a bad thread, OP. I do think youre on to something, personally, Ive been thinking about a modern cz52 type pistol designed for 5.7fn
and pretty much anything thats not a tilting barrel or breech-locked is an improvement imo

>>33464190
>If they're circular for the entire length there shouldn't be a problem

I'd really like to see a slide on circular rails.

>>33464291
I'm sure he meant a continuous curve, not a full circle... but yeaha hulahoop gun would be pretty cool

>>33464472
Of course, but either way would satisfy me.

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why not go gas delayed blowback?

It would still have to be short recoil pretty much invalidating the pros of a fixed barrel.

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>>33464602
Or a roller delayed blowback?

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>>33463713
>Beretta trying to be a Glock

>>33459525
Would that be like the early colt 1902-1908 autos then with the double pin pivots?

>>33465648
The fuck are you talking about?

>>33465613
m8 that's a CZ for comparison

>>33464602
>>33465296
With gas delayed the simplicity is there, but they run hot and dirty, and with the Steyr GBs very compact system of using the barrel as a piston, there is a lot of added machining cost. With RDB it's a simple matter of added complexity.

>>33463677
>>33463713

I hope you fellas never need to disassemble a real weapon system....

>>33461792
You posted those words and yet you don't even know what they mean. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, this is /k/ after all.

Well OP, apparently your idea has been dun befo in the White-Merrill trials pistol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svdj_MPDH3g

>prove that it works by pushing the bolt head carrier away from the bolt due to their weight difference, and has nothing to do with distances to "unlock" shit
>I'm the one who doesn't understand it
Solid bait I give it 8/10