So the rapier is the pinnacle of western swordsmanship,

Just shot him.

>>33431342
Cloak and dagger?

Rapiers are why the West needs feminism.

A katana

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>>33431342
A firearm

>>33431342
armor

A sable is better in every aspect

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>>33431342
a bigger rapier.

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>>33431579

>>33431579
Well they are pretty cuddly looking

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>>33431579

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>>33431342
>the rapier is the pinnacle of western swordsmanship

>>33431342
With a spear or ranged weapon.

>>33431894

problem with spears is that all you have to do is grab the haft and you have control over it, you probably arent going to grab a sword by the blade

A giant magnet.

Play Marth

>>33431342
Assuming similar tech levels, a polearm. Swords were essentially the side arms of their era, you didn't go into real combat with them unless you had to.

>>33431342
spear/halberd

>>33431944
>you probably arent going to grab a sword by the blade
>what is mail gloves and gauntlets

>>33432149
>thinking gauntlets don't just have thin leather on the palms

>>33432210
doesn't matter try some up some time, the side metal plates will lock onto the blade as you grip it if you try to yank it anywhere you will ruin the edge and not cut anything.

>>33432008
i would go with a crossbow if i could choose anything but yeah polearms would do.

>>33431944
That's not really very easy.

>>33431944
It's far easier said than done. The spear is one of the greatest weapons to have in a 1v1 scenario because it's so incredibly fast.

Put a mediocre fighter with a spear against a decently skilled swordsman and I'd give the fight to the spearman 9/10 times.

>>33432008
Rondeleros used the sword as their main weapon.

>>33431354
Glock and Dagger
>ftfy

>>33431607
isn't that an estoc?

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>>33431579
>A sable is better in every aspect
Truly, they are the deadliest weapon.

>>33432008
Not really

They were very often used in a battle, just not always at the beginning.

Mostly by cavalry, who would expect to lose , discard or break their lance at some point during an fight. Albeit cavalry did also have hammers and maces, but swords were always worn.

Also during much of the time of the Rapier's use (17th century) polearms- with the exception of pikes, were becoming outdated

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>>33432357
Really want to mess a fucker up, release the baboons

>>33432464
Imagine being stuck on a space station with a load of drugged up baboons armed with knives and loads of ballpit-balls floating everywhere

>>33431944
1) you can grab a sword it's a big part of any european fencing schools material.
2) you can grab a spear too, but it's not that easy as you think. big part of spear work is simply using it as a staff of hardened heavy wood and break everything it its be it skull or arm or leg.

i would say it's somewhat easier to get control of a spear in certain situations, but also you are probably holding it with one hand while your opponent uses both you won't be in a very good position for wrestling.

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>>33432490
Don't really need knives, look at the teeth on the cunt!
Though, there's a need to weaponize them somehow on meth drip feed, train them to bite people then release them in the middle east

>>33432531
Could do like Idi Amin, train chimpanzees to use machetes and release them to cause chaos, could work with baboons, but we need a drug they get addicted to but can access long term, they have heroin a lot in the ME?

>>33431342
With a shield.

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>>33432490
Yeah they made a video game about that.

>>33431579
Based Matt greatly prefers sabres personally, yet disagrees with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJBGlChcXU

>>33431944
Yeah because you just walk up and let him grab your spear, obviously

And you are well aware that the blade of a sword can be grabbed easily with gloved hands, or even unadorned with a lot of practice? I'm not even talking about that weeb overhand sword catch either.

>>33432531
They fight like cocksuckers, too.

They sink those big-ass teeth into you, then push you away, ripping your shit.

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>>33431342
>>33431345
>>33431363
As Michael Hundt somehow said
>And then milord here's my last stücke that is of the most utility when attacked by a single ruffian
>just carry a gun and shoot him

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>>33432905
Nah, they mostly like meth, heroin they sell to asians to fund their next 10y/o butt boy and AK.
Baboons are essentially a pack animal that is fairly smart, so if they where trained like an extra bitey sniffer dog, there could be packs of extremely stoned monkeys happily murdering their way through Syria.

>>33432008
>Swords were essentially the side arms of their era, you didn't go into real combat with them unless you had to.
Of course you did! You didn't choose between polearm and sword, you had both! One in hand and the other at your side. The "sidearm" thing of the sword is a matter of convenience, not efficiency, it's a sidearm because it can be, a pike can't and is therefore a primary.

>>33431944
>problem with spears is that all you have to do is grab the haft and you have control over it
>"Problem with melee weapons is that all you have to is parry and riposte".
Problem is that it's easier said than done and that combat isn't turn-based irl.

>>33432411
>Also during much of the time of the Rapier's use (17th century) polearms- with the exception of pikes, were becoming outdated
"Were becoming", maybe, but halberds, partisans and the likes were still in use, among guardsmen and the likes for example. There are sources they were used on the battlefield, but not very much. The tactics of the time revolved around pikemen and musketeers, with little melee combat.

>>33433302
Are you retarded?

>>33432411
Also doesn't forget sieges. They are boring and don't get enough attention despite been major part of European warfare

>>33431610
>>33431618
Wow shes really changed since her WWF Diva days

>>33433221

>Michael Hundt

Hopefully shortening Michael to Mike wasn't done at the time

So i was looking at a french drawing comic and the story took place at the time the rapier started becoming the iconic weapon it was destined to be.

The author was pretty real with it. The rapier is ugly because it need nearly no skill to be as effective as a typical sword. It also pierce and slash way quickly than any weapon before and the injuries while not always mortal were always one big step into the grave.

He talked about how a guy with big armor would win against it but only if the rapier guy was retarded because rapier witha minimum skill can aim for weak point and betting armor (reducing mobility) against mobility is a risky gamble.

All the weaboo with their katana and crusaders can go die rapier is the best

>>33432318
definition of estoc: a big rapier

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>>33432490

>>33434536
Definition of spear: A long stick with a short rapier on the end.
Clearly spears are top-tier weapons.

>>33431342
Dragonslayer Greataxe. The hyper armor on the fast swing prevents you from being staggered.

>>33431355
Under rated

>>33431342
Be a better swordsman

>>33433477
Elaborate.

>>33431342
>So the rapier is the pinnacle of western swordsmanship, how to counter it?

Yes it is and it's small cousin the small sword for portability.

On the sabre side either the 1796 or 1912 if you are on the fence of either cut or thrush in the charge.

But on foot, the fast thrust with reach.

>>33431356
>A katana

No, in any circumstance but note the phrase western swordsmanship, which was far superior in all ways from metallurgy to application in steel armed battle.

>>33431363
>A firearm
Correct,

>>33431579
>>33431579
>A sable is better in every aspect

In foot combat one on one the thrust proved better than the cut. That debate was settled comprehensively. In the press of battle particularly;y on horse the cut has some merit but with the thrust only 1912 sabre the pinnacle of cavalry swords the cut ultimately lost out to the thrust even on horseback.

>>33431894
>With a spear or ranged weapon.

Not swordsmanship. A spear or pole arm will always defeat a swordsman as will a gun.

>>33431610
>>33431618
I want a fur coat made of these things

>>33431354
>>33432300
>Glock and swagger
C'mon guys

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>>33434909

Cloak and rapier was quite an art.

>>33432464
>those baboons trying to fuck the chick

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>>33431342
>how to counter it?
With a gun.

>>33433302
I say were becoming, as- as far as i am aware, at least in the English army, some sergeants and officers still carried halberds, and a few even continued to carry polearms (spontoons) until the 19th century (the colour party).
I would accept your point that guardsmen still carried them a lot.

By the 17th century cavalry only used the sword, lances had been discarded as a weapon a few decades beforehand.
We do of course have to differentiate between the early 17th century and the late 17th century

In the early 17th century, at least for the first 2 decades- you saw more common extensive coverage in armour - more enclosed helms, use of zweihanders and polearms and even shields

From roughly 1620 to 1670, it was nearly entirely pike and shot, with the exception of said officers with polearms. There was a lot of melee combat during this time, especially during the numerous sieges.
Armour was far more commonly a helmet with a gorget, curiass or half armour and you would not see more than 3/4 plate- which was mostly worn by cavalry.

From about 1670 armour, remaining polearms+pikes/longswords/shields began to be phased out, at least for most infantry, becoming fully phased out by about 1700
Armour, if worn- was only a curiass or gorget, mostly officers and heavy cavalry/ specific heavy infantry.
For sieges infantry would sometimes be issued curiasses

That is debatable, the small sword is arguably more useful

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>>33435016

>>33431944
Ill take half swording for 500, alex

>>33433510
Sieges are most fun at the climax but vary the rest of the time, a bit like sex except more violent

http://www.britishbattles.com/english-civil-war/siege-of-basing-house/

this is one of my favourite later sieges
only lost when the garrison were being naughty

How are large, two-handed swords in a duel?

>>33432287
Rondeleros were special troops used in the press of a broken pike formation. They were vulnerable to cavalry, a fresh pike line, and ranged weapons fire, and were consequently only relevant for 20-30 years.

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>>33431342
With a backsword you dirty Italian

>>33435016
>implying she's really putting up a fight

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>>33431944
>you probably arent going to grab a sword by the blade
Buddy...

>>33431342
>So the bayonet is the pinnacle of western swordsmanship
Fixed that for you, no need to thank me just doing my part

>>33437290
Top notch. Great swords were less than popular because they were a pain in the ass to carry around, not because they weren't useful.

>>33437319
>They were vulnerable to cavalry, a fresh pike line, and ranged weapons fire,
They were vulnerable to the very pikemen they were intended for use against.
>and were consequently only relevant for 20-30 years.
Depends how you define "relevant". Were they used? Yes. Were they ever effective enough to be worth more than an experiment? No. Institutional inertia plus the romance of the sword are the only reasons rodeleros even lasted that long.

>>33435045
why did the lance lose out?

>>33437407
Nope. Bayonets (specifically socket bayonets that could be quickly affixed and removed without effecting a firearms utility) made an end to the infantry hanger, but were only marginally useful against a dedicated sword charge.

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rapiers had to be used with daggers because the iron blade was too brittle to block a strike from a sword

>>33437290
It's cheating, as it's essentially a polearm. The reach and striking power are off-the-charts as swords go.

>>33434536
estocs cannot cut due their triangular cross section

they're like big spikes

rapiers have edges and can still cut

>>33437483
Glad we've got a resident expert here

You're wrong bucko

>>33434554
Definition of a bullet: a rapier propelled by explosives

>>33437432
Are you retarded? I clearly stated that they were only useful against a broken pike line and were of extremely limited utility otherwise. Do you want me to write it out for you in crayon? Maybe I should've used smaller words? I honestly can't conceive a single reason, other than pure stupidity, that you would think that your response does anything other than restate my own post. Kindly go fuck yourself.

>>33431944
You wouldn't need to. It has much greater reach than a rapier, you can use it against your opponent while they're too far away to strike you. You could also hold it mid-shaft and use it like a quarterstaff, and it would have too much momentum for a rapier to reliably parry.

A long stick with pointy metal at the end

>>33435201
>half swording a rapier

Rapiers are pretty and all but they aren't a battlefield-ready weapon
Longswords and backswords are the real weapons for that period, plus dedicated two handers.

>>33437483
"Hard" blocking in general isn't a good thing to do, it creates too much risk of breaking your own sword (even if it's not a flimsy rapier), not to mention you still absorb the full kinetic energy of your opponent's swing. Parrying is more about trying to deflect rather than block blows, pushing them off course rather than absorbing the full momentum. Daggers were used so you'd have SOMETHING to do with your off hand, so you could defend without your own attack being disrupted.

>>33437705
Explain beats

>>33437594
kek

>>33437349
Get out of here, Anglo filth.

>>33437483
bait

>>33437669
Weren't "war rapiers" used by Swedes (Caroleans)?

>>33432490
lmfao....never change /k/

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>>33437290
You become unstoppable

>>33431610
>>33431618
pretty adorable desu

>>33439008
>the
>legend
>never
>dies

>>33432263
If you grabbed a spear, the other person would just have to slide it backwards quickly and the leaf head would render your hand so useless.

The only way that scenario works is with very thick unwieldy 'spears' converging in pike-tier.

Swords are far superior to spears in block formations, but 1v1, a spear could be a pretty even match.

Damn I have been wanting a rapier for a while now. I was looking at some rapiers but being a newfag at swords, not sure what to get. Kinda wanted the ~40" blade rapiers with nice hilts, the proper rapiers that aren't like fencing foils and smallswords.

>>33434496
>but only if the rapier guy was retarded because rapier witha minimum skill can aim for weak point
That's easier said than done, and on a guy with full plate, you're not going to get be able to expertly stab into any gaps of the armor without pinning the guy down and stabbing him with a dagger.

That is of course if he doesn't smash your head in for trying.

>>33434879
>In foot combat one on one the thrust proved better than the cut
>1912 sabre the pinnacle of cavalry swords

>believing the memes
ishiggydiggy

>>33440195
>even match
I'd argue the spear would greatly outmatch a sword in most 1v1 scenarios
>>33440314
Windlass christus imperat is probably the best budget rapier on the market

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>>33434952
So it was.

>>33440445
>Windlass christus imperat
DEUS VULT?

>>33437450
>why did the lance lose out?
It made a comeback after waterloo as the Polish lancers were very effective
Germans had lancers in ww1 as did the British

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>>33431342
Advantage trident.

>>33437594
>Are you retarded? I clearly stated that they were only useful against a broken pike line and were of extremely limited utility otherwise.

Actually the epee style foot thrust is descended from rapier use in close pike warfare, the pike line did not have to be broken just engaged.

>>33440517
Thou hast made worms meat of me

>>33440580
5'8'' manlet gladiator

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>>33440543
But of course

It's actually a pretty attractive piece for it's low price.

>>33440747
[desire to purchase intensifies]

It's definitely my current top choice. Any other good options?

>>33440717
an average viking raider was 175cm (5'8"-5'9") and they were considered "talls" so yeah, back then ~160-165cm will be average for the rest of europe

and daily reminder: la verdadera destreza > anything at 1v1 on foot

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>>33431342
With a gun

>>33440802
As far as rapiers go I don't really know much else, since it's not what I find myself interested in at the moment. That's definitely the best one windlass has to offer though.

>>33431965
underrated

>>33433097
Spessmen is an amazing game

>>33440896
not sharp

short

tacky muh jesus inscription

just save your money and wait for a superior product come out

>>33440314
castille
darkwood
danelli
http://www.sword.cz/eindex.htm

depending on whether you're looking for a sharp or training blunt.

>>33440195
>implying it's difficult to keep hold of the shaft
You can have someone pull on a sharp sword full force while you're holding the blade in one hand and your hand will not slip if you hold it properly

>>33431342

spear, the pinnacle of warfare for roughly 200,000 years.

Holy shit, these threads are flaring up my autism.
Rapiers are a civilian weapon, they're shit in single combat versus anything beside another rapier or small sword.
In a bind or a parry an arming sword, a backs sword or a side sword will always dominate. Rapiers were used in duels because they were the choice of the average civilian to carry, as they denoted status and were considered more elegant.

>muh rodeleros
An anon already addressed it. It was a specialized, short lived troop that was used in a very specific context. People used flamethrowers in warfare before, that doesn't mean they're a great all around weapon.

>but muh speed and reach
Ok, Jim, I see all your knowledge comes from vidya gaems. Rapiers were as heavy as a long sword and about as long, sometimes a bit longer than an arming sword

>yah well, a rapier can stab you through armor
No, kill yourself.

In addition to that, a rapier has garbage STOPPAN POWAH, unless you land a thrust in very select few zones.

>>33431342
>how to counter it?
Armour, lots of it.

In an unarmoured duel, nothing which isn't attached to a pole approaches a rapier.

Best weapon for an unarmoured duel, if you could pick anything, is a 7ft spear with a light head.

>>33440565
They only died out by 1700 ish, im sure you would still get "that guy" for a few years after though.

Its because of Pistols
Pistols were found to be more useful than the lance, pistoliers kept defeating lance armed cavalry

>Navarre's cavalry were 1,300 armoured pistoleers whilst the Royalists under Joyeuse were 2,000 heavy lancers (gendarmes). Within a few minutes of combat the lancers had been routed, many being captured and held for ransom


also pikes, pikes had been around for a while, granted, but now everyone used pikes and there were loads of guns to back up the pikes, you typically needed a good charge to use a lance properly, which was difficult now, so people just used swords and pistols.

>>33442688 meant for >>33437450

but >>33440565 is right, they made a comeback because pikes had stop being used tbqh

>>33442584
>People used flamethrowers in warfare before, that doesn't mean they're a great all around weapon.

I beg to fucking differ

>>33442584
Rapier can parry any weapons fine though (see Tom Leoni about that), save for large two-handers but that's the case for everything.

What makes the rapier so shit in the bind exactly I wonder... They can disengage and do cavazione much faster than any other weapon and are much quicker (not faster) to hit since they are typicaly half a feet longer than any other sword. They have substantially more hand protection than any other sword save the backsword. You mock reach and quickness of the point, but these are still true for the rapier compare to any other sword, it's definitely an advantage in unarmored fencing.

Many soldiers carried rapier in their civilian life, it's not a matter of elegance but efficiency, especially since rapier are typically heavier and more cumbersome to wear than arming swords and sideswords.

>my autism.
That's nice to know that Silverites recognize what they are though.

>>33442584
there wasnt a distinction between civilian and military at that time, they were used in combat extensively.

Though i do agree they are specialised duelling weapons, they are the same weight as a backsword or sidesword, just specialised for thrusting, they will perhaps lose in a bind- depending on where the blades make contact, but with a longer weapon it is easier to avoid one and simply parry/thrust.
I may be biased as i really like them though.


Rapier could probably not get through shot-proof armour to any effect, but to be fair there were still weak points and gaps, and in this time armour coverage was decreasing , there were lots of places one could land a thrust.
Many wore only a gorget and buff coat towards the mid/late 17th century

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>>33431342
>check
>mate

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>>33442767
im going to take that as seriously as pommel throwing

>>33442584
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJBGlChcXU
Watch it, then come back.
Yes, Rapiers were civilian weapons for one-on-one unarmored fighting.
No, they weren't used for style. In their niche, they eclipse all other swords.
They were longer than arming swords and differently balanced, they have speed and reach because of length and balance.
Also, you can indeed not stab through armor and they may be less than optimal in a thick melee. Soldiers at the time often used swords with rapier hilts and stronger, shorter blades.

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>>33442789
>implying pommel throwing isn't serious

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>>33442820
Its silly ......unless you bring a bag of pommels with you

>>33433221
it's probably a fighting style involving spent guns as off hand weapon and to parry with. not shooting someone when it's still loaded.

basically first ruffian shot second stabbed.

>>33442865
Nope, here's the text that comes with the image (from Wiktenauer).
>It sometimes helps wonderfully, when brisk people come together, whether Noble or non Noble, and are there to fight with hatred, how also today the weapons in the brawling are not equal, and may soon reduce one to the other in thrusting and in cutting, how it is now the custom in several Lands, which is also heard, where one has a dagger and rappier and the other has a short barreled weapon and rappier, and rather, when one is forced to use rappier and dagger, and he has learned nothing of it: So your grace, instead of the Dagger, take a short barreled weapon, and there it will be well revealed, what is the best thing to do, or not, Where dissimilar weapons before the opponent will be used, then in the case of emergency must one use, what one can think of, because it is all come to the utmost, now in these dangerous times in the World.

Basically, don't bother training if you know you won't do it properly, just carry a gun instead of a dagger to accompany your rapier. That's comforting the idea that guns are more useful for people who don't train and that a gun is more noob friendly that a sword and companion.

>>33442747
>>>>>>>cavazione
Holy shit, have you even held a sword in your life? If you're holding an arming/long sword and the person in front of you is holding a rapier you're not gonna stand in long point waiting to engage them in fairy twirls, that's obviously the only thing a rapier is good at. Ultimately the rapierfag will be standing in long point because that's the only guard they have any use of, but if you simply don't engage you will force them on the offense. This is where the rapier blade starts to show it's extreme inadequacies in am Schwert play - they thrust at you, your parry is as smooth as butter due to the heft and balance of arming/long swords over the hilt heavy rapier. If you parry correctly and go into an adequate Ochs you can easily stab them while they struggle to clear. A rapier will need to move further down the strong to clear an Ochs from a medieval sword, even if they manage to clear they closing the distance between the fighters, allowing for the swordsman to grapple or attack the rapier arm with ease. It's hilariously easy to perform a disarm on someone utilizing a ring guard grip, because the wrist structure is weak as shit.

>>33442805
>No, they weren't used for style.
Every sword ever that was carried in civilian life was a status symbol. A sword in civilian life was seldom, if ever drawn, so it gave a good excuse to the wealthy to show off their high standing in society. Of course I'm not saying the only reason it was carried was because it was purddy, but that had a role in it too.

>muh unarmored fighting
There we go, moving the goalposts. Admit it, a rapier is only good in a very specific scenario, where your opponent will not wear armor, will not use a great sword, will willingly engage you in long point fairy twirling gymnastics and will not disarm you, breaking your arm in the process.

>>33432490

Just go to Detroit

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>>33431579
Nah sabres have shorter reach. The swedish infantry saber manual does have a specific section for how to counter someone with a rapier and the instructions there is to never ever strike first because if you try to make a cut they will finish you with a thrust before you can hit.

So you wait for them to thrust at you, parry it and then go for their arm.

>>33443029
>Rapiers were used in duels because they were the choice of the average civilian to carry, as they denoted status and were considered more elegant.
>Every sword ever that was carried in civilian life was a status symbol.
Who's moving the goalpost here? Rapiers were worn over sideswords, arming swords, whatever else there was because they worked better, not because they were considered more elegant.

>muh goalposts
A rapier is a weapon for unarmored fighting, I never denied that. You claimed it was inferior in swordplay, which is... not the opinion of most experts. No, I'm not going to argue against your preformed idea how you would easily defeat a rapier. Fight against a good rapier user if you don't believe it. Btw. a greatsword is not a side arm and basically a short spear, not a fair comparison.

>>33443289
You realize swords were carried by civilians for a thousand years before rapiers even were a thing, right?

Rapiers are inferior, if for no other reason than the fact that they are a specialized weapon that is useless outside a very narrow context. I have fenced versus rapier and most times it ends with my Ochs going in the face of the person, because they go for a lunge and I don't even need to move offensively.

>>33431944
>>33432149
>>33432232
>>33432210
>rapier
>cutting
Nigga you serious?

>>33443797
>being an idiot
>knowing nothing about rapiers
You serious?

>>33443797
Time to go

>>33443826
>Knowing rapiers were specialized dueling weapons designed around thrusting carried primarily by civilians for protection and that many (though not all) actually lacked sharp edges.
I may be a fucking idiot, but I do know a few things about rapiers.

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>>33432464
haha! i already have an image like that!

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>>33444051
I've got a very large version of it somewhere if you want it

>>33431944
the person using the spear isn't just going to give up if he manages to grab the shaft

"well gee willickers...he grabbed muh spear...I guess he won"

>>33431579
It's true, lots of trunk space for your guns.

>>33431342
With the real pinnacle of western swords. The Model 1913 "Patton" Cavalry Saber. From horseback.

>>33444366
>He owns a high powered assault horse

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>>33443857
Look at any surviving manual on rapier
>protip: they cut you fucking mongoloid

Guys you need to stop having opinions on things you know fuck all about.

It's time to stop.

>>33443857
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrtnDRDPFZw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZLw-tlIOs

>>33431342
meh, it's more like the epitome of western dueling. The sabre was considered the last war sword and it really only got away with that due to armor falling out of fashion.

>>33431342
I'm a rapier loving faggot but I'll admit it's got plenty of weaknesses:

>A shield, if you're really good and quick with one
>A long ass spear, be quick with it
>Gladiator style, net and pitchfork
>Any ranged weapon, crossbow, bow, or firearm
>Literally any armor at all

For what the rapier is made for, it's the best tool possible: A relatively portable weapon for fighting one or few opponents, who are not wearing armor. If you want to put it at a disadvantage, you need to change the situation: bring friends, be mounted or use a shield or armor.

>>33432490
Baboons don't need knives they are knives. Parts of South Africa have a problem with them killing large dogs & breaking into houses. They are tough mean mother fuckers

>>33432357
>can women justify their needs for extra marital relations?
Was there ever a time where women wernt soul sucking whores?

bullets

>>33450052
From what I can see, rapiers were kinda like raceguns now or those super target 22LR pistols with custom single-handed formed grips. More or less useless when out of their specific domain. Rapiers specifically, and not smallswords, but actual rapiers, could be fairly beefy and heavy, capable of dealing with heavier sabers and stuff, but still not exactly the jack of all trades sword.

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>>33431579

>All these nerds saying spears are the end all for beating swords

If we are talking regular outfitted infantry, no way.

If we're talking about no armor you're still wrong, it's not so clear cut. With a spear you're limited to thrusting into your lead foot. Basic footwork will fuck that up, anyone circling to the outside will make things tricky for the spearman. It's like you nerds never boxed or did any combat sport.

>>33432464
I think the artist drew one too many baboons...looks like a Nork photo shop.

>>33431342

distance control.

A rapier with a 1m blade has even more reach than a longsword, but it's primarily a thrusting weapon, which makes it less effective at striking limbs, and it doesn't have enough reach to simultaneously threaten enemy vitals AND keep your limbs out of his reach.

>>33431342
sword breaker/catcher in off hand
>or almost any armour

>>33453583
>spears can't cut or strike unarmoured opponents
Get a load of this guy

>>33443393
You spelled ox wrong and though I admire you for your strength and ability to wield cows as a weapon I don't know what that has to do with swordsmanship.

>>33434879
Stop using wiki for reference.

What happens if you stick a sword in someone while charging on a horse?

>hint, horse doesn't stop

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>>33453613
That's the great thing about weaponized primates, there's always more of them!

>>33453911
So ou just learn how to cope with quickly extracting the point, like all every cavalry learned how to.
Giving point is typically superior when charging, but cutting is obviously better when engaged in a mélée with other cavalrymen.
Point centric cavalry mostly makes sense with heavy cavalry though, that's a given...

http://hroarr.com/napoleonic-flame-war-cut-vs-thrust/

>>33453885
It's the German term for one of the basic guards in swordsmanship. I sincerely hope you were joking, otherwise I have no idea what you're doing in a thread about sword fighting.

>>33453920
Is that the Flynt river?

>>33453076
Pretty much, but their domain was a little wider than that. They were pretty much the pinnacle of a civilian or officer's EDC sword, you could wear it all day and protect yourself really well as long as you aren't attacked by guys in armor.

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>>33450278
Baboon= dangerous
Stabby Baboon= deadly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-0vbvy2ip4

>>33432464
Those are mandrills.

>>33453583
>It's like you nerds never boxed or did any combat sport.
If you ever boxed or did any combat sport, you'd realize that reach and speed is important. You'd also know that the guy who can stab you quickly and from 6 feet away before you can touch him has the advantage.

>>33454299
They've already drilled the shit out of the woman so he's probably next

>>33454030
True but generally the problem was stab vs slash in case you get demounted, in which slashing is generally better

>>33454435
Or in any case retaining ability to cut vs pure stabbing 1912 pattern

>>33453583
>he thinks spears can only thrust

Some spears can cut and almost all spears can be used as a quarterstaff if the swordsman gets too close. They're not just pokey-pokey, stabby-stabby peasant weapons.

Plus, spears have a massive reach advantage against all swords with exception of large greatswords such as montantes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhgO7cEZnns

The video above is not the definitive answer to spear vs sword, but you can see that a spearman can harass a swordsman and beats him most of the time.

>>33454141
Pretty sure he was joking.

>>33454364
Holy shit this is pure gold.

>>33454450
1912 pattern was more of a short lance than anything really

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>>33454364
witty

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Questions everyone's asking, but probably wouldn't say in polite company
>Which is rapier?
>A Mandrill
>A Baboon
>A Brazilian

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>>33431342
>So the rapier is the pinnacle of western swordsmanship, how to counter it?
you can't

rapiers are OP

>>33454704
More registered cases with Brazilians, therefore ....Brazilians

however monkeys do rape other monkeys, need more research

>>33434404
severely underrated

>>33431342
A pointy stick

>>33456589
Oh shut up!
Now I'll tell why the raspberry is far more deadlier and much more to be feared than the rapier...

>>33454338
My point was footwork makes thrusting ineffective, it's already OBVIOUS that spear has longer reach dummy, but if a skilled swordsman with a gambeson fought a skilled spearman with the same, itd always go to the swordsman.

A spear isn't going through a good gambeson

>>33454582
>Thinking a video of a play fight between two dorks is legitimate evidence

I'm not saying an untrained swordsman will beat an untrained spearman, but there's numerous ancient literature that speaks about how easily countered spears are.

They have only one thrust and a small recovery period that can be possibly timed to move in on if proper footwork is used. Spears are telegraphing weapons.

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>>33457696
>but there's numerous ancient literature that speaks about how easily countered spears are.

name one then. I'll be waiting.

>Spears are telegraphing weapons.

you haven't fenced once in your life mate. who are you trying to fool/impress on this nepalese yak milking forum?

>>33431944
>grab the
this is the surefire way to spot the guy who has never done HEMA

>>33457696
>two dorks
i bet they have spent more time training and reading treatises than you have

>>33454298
FUCK

>>33431342
a concealed byrnie and the ability to wrestle

>>33442584
earlier Rapiers, now retroactivly called Sideswords were use din battle plenty.

Gustav II Adoolf used a Battle Rapier, for example.

they might have a beefier construction but the rapier has made a home on the battlefield.

>>33457696
Without a skill advantage or starting with the presumption of him miss playing the spearman simply has more reach, leverage, and variety of striking distances. long story short excluding extraneous factors he'd have to fuck up to be beaten by the swordsman. also spears do not only have one means of inflicting damage. they can thrust, cut, or be used as a bludgeon(with enough for to break bone or render one unconscious). furthermore due to the weighting of the weapon(amount of mass away from the hands as opposed to near, between, and behind them) its quicker to recover from a thrust or slash with a spear than a sword when wielded properly.

The rapier is the pinnacle of jack shit, the montante/spadone/greatsword/doppelhander is the pinnacle of swordsmanship, and only because it's the closest sword there is to a polearm.

Anything you can do with a rapier you can do faster, more precisely, more powerfully, and with longer reach with a montante.

>>33458366
Sure, the name sidesword is modern, but comparing to the later evolution of the sword a sidesword is not a rapier by any metric, sans the fact it has a complex hilt. The blade is basically a XV Oakeshott.


>>33458268
A lot of Schwertnemen techniques rely on gaining control of your opponent's sword. I'm not saying it's a good idea to grab a spear with one hand, when the person is holding it with two, but you're not correct in the general sense.

>>33433221
Amazing. Thanks!

>>33458531
Anon are you compensating for something?

>>33458531
You're saying you can lunge with a montante faster than with a rapier? Lel

>>33458739
from any guard except long point, yes, because you can bring your point to bear faster. Probably about the same from long point.

Do you think you can lunge faster with a rapier than a spear?

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>>33458556
>A lot of Schwertnemen techniques rely on gaining control of your opponent's sword. I'm not saying it's a good idea to grab a spear with one hand, when the person is holding it with two, but you're not correct in the general sense.
My 'genera; sense' is simply that it's absurdly dumb to think that a spear is easy to bypass as if it cannot be retracted and that the spearman cannot move himself, and further that with you one hand on the spear that the man with both hands would ever be able to have any lesser power over the spear.

It's just fucking dumb anime shit or something, and they've clearly never tried it.

>>33458556
>Sure, the name sidesword is modern, but comparing to the later evolution of the sword a sidesword is not a rapier by any metric, sans the fact it has a complex hilt. The blade is basically a XV Oakeshott.
i wouldn't say that it was anything as drastic as a XV, but sure, it was thicker and perhaps stouter, but still undeniably rapierlike. this is reflected in that it is often called a "cutting rapier"
I'm willing to bet if i had a sidesword in my hands, the best use would be to use it like a rapier. Look at the pictures of Meyer when he taught rapier. That's very sidesword like.

>>33458531
>you can do faster
Nope. But doesn't matter much because reach trumps speed.

>>33454704
Bonobo

>>33437705
>flimsy rapier
No.

>>33458531
So a sword that isn't particularly good at being a sword and not particularly good at being a polearm?

>>33460180
t. someone who has clearly never tried hitting someone who was using a two handed sword.

>>33460180
Sure, as in you can't hang one from your belt. And a PDW isn't particularly good at being a pistol and not particularly good at being a rifle, but it's still a better weapon than a pistol if you can be assed to lug one around.

>>33439008
Jesus that Haruhi should have used an Iron. Jesus Christ.

>>33460282
This guy doesn't get it.

>>33460319
This guy does. Point taken.