Is it time for tilting bolt rifles to make a comeback? They seem

>>33358126
I could see a place for it in cheap PCCs or rifles maybe. Nothing that needs more than 3-4 MOA could use it.

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>>33358126
Can someone explain why tilting bolts are a problem in FALs? I looked into it a bit and it seems like the problem has more to do with lockup, i.e. it's easily fixable.

People go absolutely apes hit if a rifle can't hold 1moa with wolf and you want tilting bolt to come back? You have any idea how spoiled this market is?

>>33358253
>>33358348
The MAS 49 is a 1.5 MOA rifle. You could probably make a sub-MOA tilting bolt if you wanted to.

>>33358286
Headspace drifts as the rifles wear, which isn't really a problem with a rotating bolt design because the locking surfaces don't get ground down.

>>33358126
>more cost effective
>Accuracy, weight, and durability are solvable problems
>solving inherent design problems that have already been solved in other designs is somehow cost effective

I'd say that rotating bolt designs and such are actually better for atleast weight because you don't need a strong receiver with which the tilting bolt locks, a simple barrel extension is enough.

>>33358449
This is another reason for the dominance of the rotating bolt design. A new manufacture FAL receiver is about 300-400 dollars. An AR-15 upper and lower set was never that expensive, ignoring Gucci shit.

>>33358126
>implying companies will ever make anything other than AR15's and polymer framed glock competitors
It is a terrifying future ahead of us

>>33358126

Rotating bolt is better in every way. Weight, consistency, and dat primary extraction

>>33358553
There are almost no modern rotating bolt semi-autos with primary extraction.

>>33358532
>ar15 and glock comfirmed for best guns ever, untill we get w40k stuff.

>>33358553
primary extraction doesn't matter on self loading firearms.

>>33358576
I think the cam path on the AR-15 and AK carriers would count as a light mechanical advantage, making them primary extraction

>>33358723
To say that it doesn't matter would be incorrect but it most certainly isn't a real concern for modern rifles.

>>33358836
I'm not 100% sure on the ak but the ar-15 most certainly doesn't have primary extraction, the bolt rotates, and then it moves rearwards. At no point is camming action used to move the bolt rearwards.

The Farquhar-Hill rifle is a semi-automatic rifle that has primary extraction action.

https://youtu.be/n8VtQt2EtJk?t=14m45s

>>33358837
It's not incorrect. It doesn't matter. It was something helped on bolt action rifles because high pressure gas wasn't cycling the gun.

>>33358899
>bolt action rifles because high pressure gas wasn't cycling the gun
Bolt action rifles are cycled manually.

>>33358879
That rifle is pretty awesome.

But it does look to me like the cam path on the AK is a little longer than enough to unlock the bolt, so a light twist is given as the case is pulled from the chamber.

Whether that counts as mechanical advantage or not, I would equate it slightly to screwing a nut on a motion transmission screw, like a primitive jack. Granted it is not much, but I do think it still counts.

>>33358579
40k is just HE .50 beowulf pistols.
You know what you must do.

>>33358899
don't listen to this guy he is an obtuse troll: >>33358991

>>33359070
It seems that the ak doesn't have any primary extraction either, the bolt rotates, and then moves rearwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad_4whlPGzU

>>33359130
Obtuse? Hardly, this post makes absolutely no sense: >>33358899

>>33359070

I think it makes a big difference extracting/feeding shitty lacquered cartridges in a hot dry chamber.

I've experienced minor stoppages in both of my SKS's running steel case ammo, where the BCG needs to be bumped 1/8th of an inch into battery.

>>33359371
Most rotating bolts don't, even the bolt action rifles.
It's osmething more commonly encounterd in straight pull rifles like the K31 and Ross.

>>33358126
Nah.
>needs to lock into receiver
>thus receiver must be stronger (and heavier) than it would need to be for a rotating bolt
>recoil can never be completely inline
>lockup will never be quite as consistent

Also:
>allowing the use of a simple direct impingement gas system
If you mean the MAS or Ljungman style, then not really, it's not that amazing (there's a reason the AR isn't DI), and there's no reason you can't have it with a rotating bolt.

>>33358253
Not a bad idea actually.

>>33358362
That's a lot of effort though, and not to talk about the MAS spraying hot gas all over the place.

>>33358449
This, if a FAL or SKS had a rotating bolt and locked into a barrel extension or the trunnion, you could make their receivers out of aluminum, even plastic, and it'd hold up.

>>33358460
In the FALs defense, the AR has a gigantic economy of scale in it's favor these days.

>>33358579
If you read up on the 40k weapons then a lot of them are dogshit, many are sub 300fps, toys essentially.

>>33358991
>>33359130
>>33359384
I forgot to type in the word "that" and it makes no sense? Ok. Primary extraction is only helpful on a bolt action rifle because you are cycling it and you are not as powerful as 50ksi gas. If you can't understand that, there's nothing I can do about it.

>>33359545
>In the FALs defense, the AR has a gigantic economy of scale in it's favor these days.
This, not to mention there have been rotating bolt, 5.56 FAL based rifles,like Red Rock Arms ATR-1 which features an aluminum receiver and Brazil's MD series (Like Springfield Armory 5.56 SAR 4800)

>>33359545
>In the FALs defense, the AR has a gigantic economy of scale in it's favor these days.
Yes, I know. I'm talking about them purely from a design perspective. The rotating bolt/barrel extension design allows for cheaper and less materials to be used.

>>33360027
Some people are amazed by 5.56mm FALs as if they weren't a terrible stopgap until the development of the FNC

>>33360276
TBh, it could be viable as any short stroke piston rifle. The FNCAL was straight up downsized FAL but with a rotating bolt and is made of stampings instead of being milled. And that's the predecessor to the FN FNC. The ONLY reason why the CAL wasn't adopted was because it was expensive to manufacture (Especially with that complex 4 position fire control group that automatically restarts itself if the 3 round burst isn't complete). The experimental 5.56 FAL with a tilting bolt was considered undesirable and the same conclusion happened with the Brazilians making their MD series of a rifle which is basically a scaled down FAL with a rotating bolt and was already adopted by them until the introduction of the 7.62 IA2 (Which is basically a tilting bolt FAL but in a more modernized packaged and lighter receiver) and the 5.56 IA2 which is the same thing as the MD series but like the one mentioned earlier, modernized and lighter.

>>33359995
>there is 50ksi in the chamber while you are cycling a bolt action
Dude your posts still aren't making any sense.

>>33361419
I think you might have dyslexia. Get someone to read this for you.

>>33361392
>The FNCAL was straight up downsized FAL but with a rotating bolt and is made of stampings instead of being milled.
So, not at all an FAL.

>>33358126
I have one for you all; a front tilting tilting bolt action.

Think of it as a trunnion where the bolt slams into battery and then slides down slightly.

The locking lugs are on the sides of the bolt face and lock into a simple trunnion (milled slots)

The machining actions would actually almost be simpler than a rotating bolt as it could theoretically be made of if only 90 degree angles in easy to reach places.

The initial extraction would be problematic though, as you'd need a pretty long delay or a fluted chamber with a high extraction pressure to accommodate no initial mechanical advantage like with a rotating bolt system.
However it would have the advantage of being very easy to fine tune the consistency of the lockup.

>>33364052
No, it's much better, with the FNC being better still.

>>33358253

I love the MAS but that yellow plastic bolt grip always looked tacky and out of place to me.