What are some shitty military designs that got hundreds

File: v_22_gallery_med_01_960x600.jpg (167KB, 960x600px) Image search: [Google]

167KB, 960x600px

like a heat seeking missile for the nearest apartment complex

>>33219684
lol only a couple hundred who gives a fuck

File: a10-010.jpg (58KB, 800x526px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 800x526px

this one isn't shitty but it's gotten hundreds of guys killed for sure

>>33219684
Humvees are pretty great at what they were meant to be. It's not really the design's fault that retards decided to do urban patrols in them. It's like getting pissed if you tried loading lumber into a sports car and it didn't fit- it's not working because you're not using it right.

File: Tiger in Africa.jpg (107KB, 640x444px) Image search: [Google]

107KB, 640x444px

>>33219842

>>33219684
Basically every russian tanks ever

>>33219941
The design of the late T-34s were fine, the issue was the production quality.

>>33219956
shittiest of optics

File: M16a1m16a2m4m16a45wi.jpg (61KB, 650x593px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 650x593px

Technically thousands would still be hundreds.

File: F-104C-1967-600dpi.jpg (4MB, 3896x2608px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 3896x2608px

>>33219684
Sexy plane coming through

>>33219991
wew lad

>>33219684
m113

>>33219879
What other vehicles should they have used?

File: murica_16.jpg (80KB, 640x427px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 640x427px

>>33220072
Not that anon, but B-52s.

File: tmp_5652-2013-07-23___Pic_Of_The_Week___1013576_10151597689042912_993438102_n1172128483.jpg (58KB, 640x385px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 640x385px

>>33219842
History's officially designated JUST tank

File: tmp_5652-hqdefault378625429.jpg (34KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 480x360px

>>33220085
Yes and also pic related

File: 6200FBFEEAB24B39AFDD1C69B3ED77B8761400000916F7D12117_tmp.jpg (24KB, 500x321px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 500x321px

>>33219991
>no pre A1 M16, the only indisputably terrible design

File: snatch.jpg (144KB, 800x591px) Image search: [Google]

144KB, 800x591px

>>33219684

File: tmp_5652-LAND_Land_Rover_WMIK_lg-759344137.jpg (138KB, 800x598px) Image search: [Google]

138KB, 800x598px

>>33220141
Oh fuck yes. Way worse than the humvee

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/UK-SAS-Commander-Quits-Citing-Inadequate-Equipment-05141/

>>33219706

>the answer to a question no one asked

Like a heli couldn't do the same job cheaper, faster and more safely.

Thx MIC!

>>33220374
>faster
no, not at all

File: 63dc0a5c63a49cd59369833a9fc1fb18.jpg (80KB, 1054x567px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 1054x567px

>impossible to see past
>awkward to get through
>crews would ban new guys from locking it closed because they weren't sure how to unlock it in a timely manner
>and then there's the special needs hatch pictured here for extra fun
The hatch was hands down the worst part of the T-34. It doesn't matter how fast, well-armed or armored a tank is if NIGGA I CAN'T SEE
FLIP THAT SHIT AROUND
I DON'T CARE IF YOU SAVE HALF A RUBLE FLIP IT

File: image.jpg (271KB, 900x960px) Image search: [Google]

271KB, 900x960px

>>33219684

Can't believe nobody's mentioned UCP...

>>33220459
Do you have any statistics on how many deaths were linked directly to the camo? I figure most army deaths were IEDs and standard ambushes, not getting spotted in the bush

>>33219956
>the problem wasn't with this part of the whole, it was this other part!
So it's still shit. Kthxbai

>>33220374
I don't understand why they didn't use jets for it.

Like, the whole issue with a helicopter is it can't go supersonic. Why would you replace that with what is essentially a fucking prop plane?

>>33220520
idk about yankee camo patterns but canadian soldiers were described as "bushes running across the desert" for a while because we literally did not have desert camo until afghanistan (since we hadn't needed it yet, everything else we'd done had been in the lush greenery of europe, or urban settings)

>>33220459
>blue digital camo

seems like it'd work well in forests on kinda gray days

>>33220408
>>faster
>no, not at all
there are helicopters that approach sanic speeds. About the limit of safe speed in a helicopter has been reached in our lifetime. There's no reason to use a prop plane over a helicopter for troop transport.

>>33219842
>>33220100

>The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!

File: 7773582623_une-carte-postale-montrant-des-soldats-francais-en-uniforme-avec-kepi-et-pantalon-rouge-garance.jpg (2MB, 3707x2471px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3707x2471px

>>33219684
>"guys guys ! what if... red pants ? Le rouge pants is so en mode !"
>"I mean we have to support these companies making red dyeing for clothes sacrebleu !"
>"better have soldiers wearing this, sooo fabulous n'est-ce pas ?"
>"why are these germans wearing grey-greenish clothes ? hon hon hon silly boches"

hundreds (of thousands) of guys killed later...

>ok better swap to full grey-blue gear.
>mud will make it brown anyway.

>>33220607
sup Oddball, they not got you in that nut ward again?

>>33220408

>what does the V-22 do best?

kills marines

>>33220259

Neither the Humvee or the Snatch were up to that task until they were both uparmored, upgraded or replaced. The Snatch is still a tough little vehicle for what it is, belying its rather modest appearance, but it doesn't matter what compares to what if they both are exceeded by the threat.

Hence, MRAPs.

File: Sherman crew safety.png (33KB, 834x261px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 834x261px

>>33219842
Wrong as fuck.

>>33220100
Yeah, even though it had the lowest crew casualty rate of any tank fielded throughout the war.

>>33220607
Or you know, mobility kill it with HE rounds. Or kill the crew through sheer concussive force with same.

>>33220590
>There's no reason to use a prop plane over a helicopter for troop transport.
Cheaper, Safer, Higher payload
Also way faster.

>>33220736
>higher payload
Compared to the much smaller Blackhawk maybe, but less payload in both weight and dimensions than things like a CH47 or CH53.
>V-22 only has a 5100lb usable cargo capacity

>>33220620
Who gives a shit about that
It was only the allies who wanted to fight WW1 and who continued getting millions of europeans killed in it

But this was part of the grand left wing plot to destroy western civilization, they have almost succeeded

File: 1445284845035.jpg (11KB, 252x221px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 252x221px

>>33220590
>there are helicopters that approach sonic speeds

>>33220725
Probably because it only saw a year of action, retard

File: Chauchat-VD-WEB3.jpg (42KB, 800x359px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 800x359px

>>33219684

>>33220818
Nigga wat. It was first deployed with the British in Africa.

>>33220775
Well yeah, those are heavy lift helicopters, the Ospreys replaced the Sea Knight helicopters. They're bigger, have more space for stuff and are much faster while having longer legs.

>>33220374
They have a longer range than a helicopter.

>>33220830
Yeah... in 1943.... aka one year before the war was basically over. Eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?

>>33220127
That's still wrong. The issue was ammunition quality and lack of maintenance in field units, the changes to the A1 were parallel solutions at best.

>>33220856
It first saw combat with the British 8th Army at El Alamein in October 1942. I'd say the only retard here is you bud.

File: London 2017.webm (3MB, 960x407px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 960x407px

>>33219684

Militaries insisting on using trap doors for decades in the era of lever actions is worth mentioning. Not that trap door rifles are bad designs but they got their ass handed to them every time they were pitted against lever actions.

>>33220459
Wasn't UCP intended to be active camouflage, where the pattern reinforced the natural camouflage effect of battlefield wear and discoloration?
I mean that's still a dumbfuck idea in the modern age, but it's not quite as retarded as thinking Jihadis can't see digital patterns

>>33220620
You're retarded if you think camo had any real effect on WWI performance. When you're fighting from entrenched positions for months at a time, nobody's confused about where you are.

>>33220821
30 years of service across a dozen nations.

>>33220902
Trapdoor actions were more popular for cavalry though, were they not?
Regardless, plenty of repeaters got blown the fuck out by muskets throughout history, it really does not boil down to volume of fire until you get into the age of the machinegun

>>33220831
The Sea Knight still has a higher usable cargo capacity (5960lbs) while being significantly physically smaller and less than half the weight.

The only reason they were replaced is they were old as fuck and falling apart.

The speed is a secondary bonus.

>>33220886
This. The M16 and A1 are both shit. Things finally got into gear with the A2 twist rate change.

>>33220917
No, UCP was designed to work "well enough" throughout a myriad of environments while offering some concealment from electronic imaging (hence the digital pattern and the IR suppressant treatment).

It was a total and complete flop solely because the DoD decided to cheap out on the ONE thing going to be issued to EVERYONE and didn't feel like paying royalties.

>>33220708

I think people who haven't served in the military fail to realize how much we bitch about EVERY piece of equipment.

Humvee won't start after having sat idle for over a month? Piece of shit.

Rifle jams when its full of dirt and ungodly amounts of CLP because grunts don't know less is more? Unreliable.

All those guys on the history channel talking about what a death trap the tank was probably saw one or two that got hit really bad, or heard about it from someone else, and now like to talk about what a death trap the thing was.

Nevermind the 50 other times one of their tanks got hit and nothing happened or one guy died.

>>33221012

Win both and try to drive the Tiger II over the bridge.

File: MV-22B_combat_radius_in_Iraq_compared_with_CH-46E_combat_radius.svg.png (95KB, 582x500px) Image search: [Google]

95KB, 582x500px

>>33221032
The speed is half of why the Osprey was chosen instead of any other helicopter. The other half is range. Which is tied to speed for this case. And it carries the same number of troops.

>>33220736
>an Osprey

>Cheaper, Safer, Higher payload

not at all

>>33220902
>>33220968

Tell that to Custer.

>>33221255
>and it carries the same number of troops
While being 3x as heavy loaded (52,600lbs for VTOL/60,500 rolling takeoff vs. 24,300lb for the Sea Knight), twice as long, and half again as wide while having a somewhat smaller cargo load.

The range is nice but they made a HORRIBLE decision doing a 1:1 replacement. Keep a couple around for long-range insertions and get a regular cargo helo for transportation since you can fit more that hold more on deck and thus have a significantly higher optempo.

>>33221317
Custer actually did have a fair number of 1866's with his unit. Custer lost because he was fighting a numerically significantly superior enemy that had all the advantages on the field, and because he was a shitty leader that got to the rank he did because of politics and not merit.

>>33219991
here's your (You), thanks for trying, nice bait.

>>33219738
This Kills the Marine.

I was in Iraq in 2005(army), and doing something at the west edge of the 3rd ID zone around Baghdad. Marines were there too since they had everything west of us.

We're sitting behind some walls because we rather not have a small arms duel with a building full of hadji. So the air force fire control guy calls in air support. 10 minutes later two A-10s fly over. The army cheers and the marines groaned.

>>33219956
>gaps in the welding of the armor big enough to stick your whole arm through

>>33221342
>>33221317
Custer had insufficient ammo.

File: AIR_F-18C_Folded_Wings_CVN-75_lg.jpg (158KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

158KB, 1024x768px

>>33219706
>heat seeking missile for the nearest apartment complex
Allow me to fix that with the correct image:

>>33220708
Lol. Just because the tank was survivable doesn't mean it wasn't shit from a capability standpoint. And you still haven't addressed the fact Shermans got shot up and became incapable of contributing to battles. From what I recall the sherman was a second choice and chosen over the t20 option of a heavier tank program because patton claimed "my logistics". US could've gone to war with a t20 model capable of supporting infantry & taking down tigers easily but Patton wanted an a lighter tank that used normal fuel so he could charge across Europe.

File: 1488742110816.jpg (752KB, 3300x2550px) Image search: [Google]

752KB, 3300x2550px

any Russian plane

>>33219991
kys slaviboo

>>33221183
>and ungodly amounts of CLP because grunts don't know less is more?
Not with M4/M16. They will run forever if kept wet.

>>33221465
Are you complaining about the F-18 or the AIM-9M?

>>33221322
>The range is nice but they made a HORRIBLE decision doing a 1:1 replacement. Keep a couple around for long-range insertions and get a regular cargo helo for transportation since you can fit more that hold more on deck and thus have a significantly higher optempo.
Disagree entirely with this. With the increasing danger of land based AShMs and aircraft, you need longer combat radius (and speed to match, so you can get there and back quickly to keep the sortie numbers up) in order to actually launch said missions without getting killed. The important part, the number of troops carried, is still the same, and heavy lift helicopters do continue to exist. If anything, you should have more V-22s and a handful of heavy lift helicopters to carry the most dense equipment. You know, exactly the system that exists currently. Strange. It's almost as if the USMC agrees with me.

>>33221482
>mig 21
>1:2
best plane of its time huh?
also lets not even mention the abomination that is the mig 23

>>33221474
>because patton claimed "my logistics"
Even providing you were right, which you aren't, the logistics issue is actually quite important. Only a few ports in Europe had the cranes to handle heavier tanks.

>>33221539
F-18

>>33221597
well then youre retarded

>>33221498
Dumping clp wildly on the internals and carrying it for a week in the field will make a mess, not good. Yes I know you can pour mud over it and it still runs, i'm talking about a week worth of infiltration, that shit kill guns.

>>33219684
the Humvee was made to fight in Europe during the cold war. it was made for very fast movement
NOT FOR OCCUPATIONAL DUTIES and also the IEDs used by the insurgents in the mid 2000s would also heavily damage Bradleys and the m113

>>33221597
What exactly do you think is wrong with the F-18? It's a pretty fantastic air to air platform.

>>33221597
wrong opinion

>>33221368
One fucking time in Desert Storm and those faggots still won't let it go.

>>33220085
>>33220072
>>33220124

Urban combat patrols in B-52's and paladins. I can see the paladin's working, take some small arms fire from hadji building, hadji building is now rubble flying 100ft through the air. What about the b-52 though? Just load up a bunch of dudes in the bomb bay, drive down the MSR and unload them when they take fire?

File: maxresdefault.jpg (58KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 1280x720px

>>33221605
>>33221621
>>33221624
it's a manned air to ground missile. F-18s fall out of the virginia skies like flies

>>33221670
>29 palms
>Virginia skies
kek

Also, the only common denominator with ANY US aircraft "falling out of the skies" is the
>USMC
part. Even their commissioned pilots are fucking retarded.

>>33221652
No, you use the B52 to flatten all the buildings from the air, then you send in ground forces.

>>33221670
>>33221670
>marine corps
found the problem. when in the hands of a not autistic branch it functions just fine

>>33221607
>in the field for a week without returning to a FOB
>not having enforced daily cleaning
Neverserved, please

File: tmp_5652-14886899861401243875163.jpg (13KB, 600x576px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 600x576px

>>33220736
>Safer

>>33221670
only a fucking marine

File: 3827 - abuse artist phantomfluffy crying editor toran foal milk momma torture.jpg (218KB, 900x689px) Image search: [Google]

218KB, 900x689px

>>33221710
Navy legacy Hornets are falling out of the skies as well. Granted, it's an issue of ancient airframes for both services.

>>33221719
makes you wonder if the osprey was in the hands of the navy or chair force they might do better

>>33221255
I hate the Osprey but that is pretty impressive senpai

>>33221746
AFSOC uses the Osprey

>>33221754
There's a damn good reason why AFRICOM loves the Osprey.

>>33221734
>legacy Hornets
once again found the problem
also cherrypicking

>>33221781
Not him, but I'd not call it cherrypicking. Legacy Hornets are old and worn out. They badly need to be replaced by every single user.

>>33221482
>if you don't like the AR you must be a Russian/Slavaboo/Commie
This is the same moronic attitude that led to the AR being adopted by the US. Don't believe me? Happened with the M14 before it, even after we promised NATO we'd use the FAL. Meanwhile countries that actually make the best weapons regardless of nationalistic dickwaving use sophisticated AK derivatives like the Stgw 90 and FNC. US mass production makes the AR cheap as sin so countries that have Uncle Sam to babysit them and don't need ground forces anyways buy them up when they need replacements for their developed rifles, (which didn't happen with the near flawless AK derivatives) driving the price down further and passing the savings onto you, the mindless consumer who buys whatever the military uses to be cool. Fast forward to 2017 and some fat mouthbreather pretends the AR is actually a good weapon because it's popular and the world keeps on spinning despite his ignorance. The best part is the US ground troops that matter, SOCOM, have switched to an FNC derivative, which is itself.... uh oh. Better plug your ears and hum the Star Spangled Banner before the America #1 police hear those Communist thoughts!

GOD YOU SUCK. I bet you CC a fucking Glock. Just kidding my daily driver is an AR I made on the cheap. Capitalism ho you easily baited cuck. That's right it was /pol/ all along. What are you going to do about it? I bet you believed it too. It being this second paragraph of course, because the entire first one was truth you refuse to swallow. Directed by M. Night Shamalamagofuckyourself ARbaby. /thread

File: 1433644551452.jpg (345KB, 588x766px) Image search: [Google]

345KB, 588x766px

>>33220549
There are parts of the world only Ospreys can operate on, while they are in shitty countries nobody cares about, they still exist. So atleast Osprey HAS a reason to exist.

>>33221342

He lost because the copper cases of the ammo at the time expanded too much when the guns got hot from "rapid" fire and welded themselves to the chambers of the rifles his men were carrying.
The weapons became ineffective because the ammo was poorly designed, not cause the guns were bad.

>>33221834
kek

>>33221539

He's talking about that Blue Angels pilot that almost crashed into that apartment complex stateside

>>33219684
Your mother. Congenital syphilis is no joke.

>>33219879

+1

When that cock sucker Rumsfeld said "As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time." I wanted to jump in my car and drive to the Pentagon and kick him in the fuckin nuts. They actually thought driving Humvees around against IEDs was just fine. Funny thing is it wasn't his kid in that Humvee that just got tossed 50 feet in the air and turned into confetti.

File: Yotsuba_APOCALYPTIC_SHITPOSTING.jpg (373KB, 1029x1600px) Image search: [Google]

373KB, 1029x1600px

>>33221834

>>33221342
>Custer lost because he was fighting a numerically significantly superior enemy that had all the advantages on the field
Yes, and he also went in with undue confidence because of an earlier success. Washita was almost a xerox copy of Little Bighorn, even down to the layout of the terrain and the indian camps and the rivers. Both times he gambled with a high-risk raid, one time it worked, the second time it didn't. It really shouldn't have worked the first time, but he got lucky.

>>33221987
He said men killed not anuses reamed by a football sized turd covered in pure stomach acid.

>>33220917
It was, but brass didn't like people wearing uniforms.

>>33219706
kek, came in to post this.

FPBP

File: 1463188218382.png (89KB, 353x332px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 353x332px

>>33219706
>>33220374
>>33222046
>implying the Osprey isn't one of the safest aircraft in US Military service

>>33220775
>>33221262
>>33221717
Osprey is not a prop plane...
A C-130 is a prop plane

>>33222033
I dont know man that is a Vegetarian one.

>>33220072
These.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1117_Armored_Security_Vehicle

>>33221987
>vegetarian
found. the. problem.

File: o76vkw9q9ujy.jpg (35KB, 504x496px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 504x496px

>>33222123
numbers are racist

>>33221548
The US marines spending all their budget on stupid shit like CH-53's & V-22's is why they can't actually be used as a military force anymore

no mention of Willys MB? that shit killed patton.

>>33222254
Patton was assassinated
He knew about the jews & that the US was controlled by commies

>>33222273
oh fuck off

>>33222247
But that's wrong.

>>33222293
>believing the official story of everything

Not even agreeing with the other anon but you act like shady shit like that doesn't happen all the time.

>>33219684
Pic related was a good design for the Cold War NATO utility truck it was built to be.

Army and Marine senior military leadership are specifically to blame for the US ignoring the lessons of Viet Nam (where modern gun trucks were born), Somalia, and the Russian invasion of Chechnya. Generals failed to demand armor kits until public outrage, NOT military casualties, got the armed forces to field armor kits to replace "hillbilly armor" field expedients. Later the MRAP solved the problem, but MRAO was originally a private venture of Force Protection Industries.

The Army and Marines have other priorities than a few dead troops until losses stir shit on the home front.

The order to use HMMWV in an environment it wasn't designed for killed G.I.s

Another fun fact. When CMOH winner SFC Paul Ray Smith was killed manning a .50 atop an M113, that track did not have an ACAV kit. ACAV kits have been in Supply since the 1960s but some senior leader though sending unprotected gunners into combat was cool. SFC Smith took hits gunshields could have stopped.

You notice modern gun shields on many Army and Marine vehicles today, but it took a lot of dead gunners before those got built.

File: popkung.jpg (159KB, 1000x545px) Image search: [Google]

159KB, 1000x545px

>>33219684

>>33221834
You are worthy to birth my manbabies. Post ur boipucci!

>>33221881
Don't forget that the pincers of his pincer movement never arrived.

But perhaps most importantly, never forget that "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" was Custer's mantra and it was inevitably going to one day get him into trouble.

File: Sir Charles Always Collects.jpg (113KB, 431x445px) Image search: [Google]

113KB, 431x445px

>>33222210
>Barack Obama
That's Charles Barkley, though.

>>33222525
The problem arises when somebody assumes that in every scenario the official story is bullshit. What should be encouraged instead is an unwillingness to turn away and ignore evidence or indications that shady shit may be taking place. Assuming that shady shit is ALWAYS taking place is just paranoia.

For instance, claiming that Patton was assassinated to conceal a Jewish conspiracy. That's just asinine. If he were to be assassinated for anything, it would be for trying to rearm the Germans and enlist their aid in fighting the Soviets. Or perhaps not, considering that MacArthur's attempts to defy Truman and nuke China only got him shitcanned.

>>33220374
>Like a heli couldn't do the same job cheaper, faster and more safely.

>cheaper
post sources for operational costs for alternative vehicles or GTFO

>Faster
FUCK no!

>safely
Despite it's shaky startup the osprey has one of the best safety records of any operational aircraft in service, there have only been 39 fatalities in the osprey since 1991. Only 9 of those since 2007 when the osprey entered official service.

>>33222882
There is also the fact that if you wanted to assassinate someone you could do a lot better than a low-speed collision.

>>33223037
Yes, also that.

>>33219684
War elephants.

File: 563be453ab026.image.jpg (215KB, 1200x860px) Image search: [Google]

215KB, 1200x860px

>>33219706
Stop reading blogs and signs of Okinawan Protestors. The V-22 has a safe track record since it's introduction to operational status in 2007.

The most crashprone helicopters in US military service are the Navy's Sea Dragons, but I doubt you even know what that is.

>>33223130
This. Most overrated part of Hannibal's campaign, and really takes attention away from his genius maneuvering.

>>33222180
Vegetarian MRE's aren't that bad. They tend to come with a lot of good sides.

File: comment_sahy79YD65tV1dDWyRF2ausK68XCiHGb.jpg (148KB, 688x622px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 688x622px

>>33220734
>You break The Tigers tracks with a lucky HE round
seconds later a Panzergranate 40 breaches your turret

>you fire a HE round at the Tiger
seconds later a Panzergranate 40 penetrates the frontal armor plates and explodes amidst the crew members

>sure showed them

>>33219706
>>33220678

The world will never tire of the V-22 as a death trap meme.

The osprey is the safest and most capable expeditionary troop transport option in the world.

File: sddefault.jpg (46KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 640x480px

>>33219991
Actually this isn't even bait, these pieces of shit still get their users killed today, the government is just better at hiding the shit today.

>>33220818
> rate

A measure, quantity, or frequency, typically one measured against another quantity or measure.

>>33222882
But Patton wanted to re-arm the germans to fight the soviets.....and shit talked the jews....

>>33223347
Fucking hicks and their lifted suspensions.

>>33221562
Sherman was very good in mud. Read the Soviet "Emchi" tanker memoirs. The Soviets exploited that maneuverability to get side shots at heavier German tanks and to tow supply trucks through mud.

>>33223601

...and? You do realize that doesn't count as any kind of evidence...

>>33223181
Why did the V-22 fail in the Yemen raid then

>>33221944
Senior Army and Marine leadership fucked up on truck armor from the beginning which is why Nam gun trucks were locally fabricated and all but one was scrapped after the war. (Last one is at Ft. Eustis museum.)

Senior Army and Marine leadership failed despite the lessons of Nam and Chechnya and Somalia to field MRAPs and armored supply truck cabs until public outrage forced them to act. "Hillbilly armor" should never have been necessary.

Senior UNIFORMED leadership with much longer careers than Rumsfeld ignored troop protection. Army and Marine leadership incompetence got their people killed. No one lost a a career and even most G.I.s who should know better don't care about history.

>>33220068
Thefreakingtruthrightthere.jpg

Ode to the m113

Fucking hot green box
I dont think we can all fit
Hatch is on my foot!

>>33223725
They warned him to shut up, then killed him

>>33221474
>From what I recall the sherman was a second choice and chosen over the t20 option of a heavier tank program because patton claimed "my logistics". US could've gone to war with a t20 model capable of supporting infantry & taking down tigers easily but Patton wanted an a lighter tank that used normal fuel so he could charge across Europe.
utter bullshit, by the way

>>33222882
Patton was very popular and would have run for president, he knew WW2 was a bad pointless war, he knew that the jews controlled the US, and he knew that the soviets were the enemy.

He would have raised awareness of all the evil stuff that the US was doing.

>>33223181
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/sea-dragon-down-human-cost-navy-s-most-crash-prone-n281636

>>33223725
what the other anon said desu

>>33223937
This^

>>33219842
I expected /k/ of all places to know the m4 Sherman wasn't a bad tank.

>>33223797
I remember reading about AK rounds penetrating Humvees easily in Black Hawk Down, which happened a decade prior to Iraq invasion

Lesson learnt: let soldiers die, who gives a fug

>>33223993
It's not like the soldiers cared either

File: M3 75mm APCBC vs Tiger.png (182KB, 656x532px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 656x532px

>>33223347
Right.

And you're missing the point of what I'm saying here, namely that M4s could and often did overwhelm German heavies through sheer volume of fire.

And I didn't even bring up the fact that a Tiger would have much harder time finding a Sherman than a Sherman would have finding a Tiger. Tigers, like all German tanks, had high quality optics, but not enough of them. The gunner had no periscope, which left him with only his Tzf 9b coaxial telescope for target acquisition. In practice, this meant that he was more reliant upon his commander's instructions than an American or even Soviet gunner would be, which in turn increased the amount of time it took to find, target, and engage an enemy tank. The lack of an auxiliary traverse control for the commander and the slower than snail shit power take-off turret traverse didn't help matters.

A Sherman, with its coaxial telescope supplemented by a gun-linked wide angle periscope with an internal low mag gunsight, periscopes for every crew member, commander's traverse controls, gyroscopic stabilizer, and in later models a good direct vision cupola, could find, target, and engage an enemy tank in about five seconds, even from a turret down position.
Of course, this is all pointless if the Tiger's transmission shits the bed.

>>33223937
Such as?

You're pulling things out of your ass here.

>>33221734

>fluffyposting

go back to /b/

>>33223601
Did I miss a memo? Are Jews omniscient and omnipotent here?

>>33224159
No? But Patton was vocal.

>>33221834
I see someone has been taking lessons from internet comment etiquette. I like it. Big money salvia out. 8=======D~~~~

>>33223937
>would have run for president
that's not what his letters, etc., say

>>33223874
Who warned him? When? And how did they convince a US Army truck driver to hit his vehicle? Or, alternatively, how did they convince his Chief of Staff to set him up?

This is why these conspiracy theories are retarded. Parsimony alone brings up a number of questions which the person positing the idea usually has no answers for.

>>33223977
I love those. Would snack on for pleasure.

>>33224224
and how was he the only one seriously injured in the crash?

>>33224181
You're missing the point. I'm not wondering how his antisemitic sympathies would have been discovered. I'm asking how somebody would have the ability to do something about it, assuming they even had the inclination in the first place.

Isn't the simpler explanation that Patton was a racist in an era of racists? Antisemitism was by no means uncommon in the forties.

>>33224234
He was the only sober one?

>>33224241
Not knowing the speed of either vehicle nor where the truck impacted Patton and Gay's vehicle, I have no way of answering that.

File: 2017-03-05_07-41-51.jpg (162KB, 640x360px) Image search: [Google]

162KB, 640x360px

>>33220055
>>33220127
>>33221482
>>33221352

>>33224295
it was more of a rhetorical question trying to point out that that was a shitty way of trying to kill someone. patton was thrust forward from the back seat and hit his head on an interior dome light, for example, while nobody else received bad injuries. no guarantee it would've worked

>>33224015
>It's not like the soldiers cared either

Their complaints home were what got the public and Congress engaged supporting armor kits and later MRAP.

Troops tend to accept what they are issued. They don't have an alternative in the field.

>>33224322
Also remember cars back then were delicate deathtraps. Someone serious would have killed everyone easily with a military truck of the time.

>>33224322
Well yeah, it is a pretty shitty way to kill someone, him in particular. Too many points of failure. Trying to convince US Army personnel to participate in the assassination of a successful and fairly popular, if controversial, general? That alone is a good way to get your scheme exposed.

Besides, Patton was an avid horseman in his youth. I wouldn't be surprised if the collision just exacerbated a previous riding injury. Or maybe it was just shit luck.

>>33224359
Also this. Contrary to popular belief, cars from this era weren't very tough. And the ones that were were not designed with crash safety in mind, so whatever force didn't contribute to damaging the car would just end up being transferred to you.

>>33223667
I don't see how that's relevant to what I said.
Although to address your statement, the Sherman was not quite as good in mud as some contemporary tanks, such as the T-34 (one of its few good features). The tracks were too narrow. Needs grousers to lessen the gap, but not quite enough to reach parity.

Bradley fighting vehicle was a turd.

>>33224430
Should have grabbed some of those BTR boys.

>>33221796
Finland's hornets are from the 90s, have done no carrier landings, nor experienced the thrill of salt air. They are pretty cherry, its just that Boeing wants them gone.

File: Sherman VC Firefly.jpg (428KB, 1600x1040px) Image search: [Google]

428KB, 1600x1040px

>>33224423
This is true, but there were several fixes to this issue. Duckbill end connectors, as seen in pic related, were special track pin connectors which increased the width of the track. Later on the Easy 9 suspension upgrades came out. These were wider versions of the standard VVSS bogies that would give you enough room to install duckbills on both sides of the track. And of course Easy 8 suspension, which featured four road wheels per bogie instead of two, and much wider tracks.

The track width problem was easy to solve. The real problem was that VVSS and even HVSS had relatively limited suspension travel, and the smaller road wheels made it less capable of traversing obstacles. It wasn't bad in rough terrain. Just not quite as good as a Panther or T-34.

On the bright side though, maintaining and repairing a Sherman's running gear was a piece of cake, while repairing a Panther's or a T-34's was a nightmare.

File: 1421002493402.jpg (15KB, 240x233px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 240x233px

>>33220590
>there are helicopters that approach sanic speeds

>>33224099
Go read his papers

>>33224224
What are you saying? That everything is done openly & publicly? And nothing is EVER done behind closed doors?

That our governments or factions of our governments don't carry our assassinations?

>>33224322
They finished him off in the hospital

>>33224695
No, you're going to either defend or forfeit your position. You don't get to make an assertion and then direct me elsewhere when I ask you to back it up.

>>33224774
Well clearly if some random nobody on the internet knows that Patton was "warned" prior to his supposed assassination, there must be proof of it somewhere?

That's what I'm saying. I know full well that our government has carried out numerous assassinations in the past. I also know that this isn't one of them, and that if somebody is going to claim otherwise, I'm going to need some proof if they don't want me to dismiss them as a paranoiac.

>>33224776
They left hundreds of thousands of western POW's in Soviet hands
They destroyed European civilization for no reason
He said he could have taken Berlin if they had allowed him
He started to understand the real motives behind WW2
He would not have accepted the mass deportation of refugees who fled the USSR back into the USSR
Homeless Germans were left out in the cold while they destroyed German factories that could have housed them
Forced labor of POW's
Looting the country

Did you think the US were the good guys or something

>>33224776
Also you had stuff like the Nuremberg show trials where vengeful jews sentence Germans to death

>>33223797

I heard the stories of guys welding on as much plate steel as they could get their hands on. So much in some cases it actually caused the chassis to crack and effected performance. Those senior leadership would have all been executed for dereliction of duty if it was my call.

>>33224920
>He said he could have taken Berlin if they had allowed him
If nothing else, you have to look at this from a different perspective. The Soviets took over 360 thousand casualties in the Battle of Berlin. Instead of taking those casualties for themselves, the Western Allies moved to secure other areas.

>>33225011
Wouldn't have been a Battle of Berlin if it had been an allied armor column invading it

>>33225029
It'd be incredibly bloody. How many men do you want to be killed an injured just to appease your ego?

>>33220939
In the first few weeks of the war before they dug in the french were slaughtered by the German army with at least some of it to do with blue and red cammo

>>33225100
Soviets were not the Allies.. Germany was not even fighting against the Allies in those days

>>33225184
Soviets were not the Western Allies, and German forces were indeed still fighting the Western Allies. But you avoided my question. What the fuck is in Berlin to make it worth hundreds of thousands of your men becoming casualties when someone else can do it?

>>33220620
The red pants ARE France!

>>33224920
>mass deportation of refugees who fled the USSR back into the USSR
Did this happen? Fuck me ded. How rude

>>33225225
Yup, absolutely nothing to be done but allow the USSR to annex half of Europe...

>>33225243
Millions of people being shipped to death or slavery
But hey we're the good guys so it doesn't matter....

>>33225293
>Yup, absolutely nothing to be done but allow the USSR to annex half of Europe...
So you move the Soviets back 50 miles. What does that achieve? Is it worth the cost?

>>33221368
>we rather not have a small arms duel with a building full of hadji.
>air force fire control guy calls in air support.


Army - when in doubt, close eyes, set on full retard, spray everything around you and then call in air and arty...

What a fucking cliche

>>33225321
Move them back 5000 miles
more like

>>33223541
You were still fighting the last dregs of a military that hadn't really been in a healthy state since before Barbarossa on what was considered the least important fronts compared to the oncoming Soviet forces. Oh yeah and total air superiority, the luftwaffe at that point was so fucked they were being used as infantry because they simply didn't have the fuel for flying anymore. Not really all that impressive when you consider how lopsided the odds were in favour of american and British tankers.

>>33225335
Yeah, not happening. You merely get to decide whether or not you're going to waste men taking Berlin or not.

>>33225349
It's what Patton wanted, obviously it wouldn't happen because FDR was a clueless cripple and the jews were calling the shots on foreign policy

If they hadn't been such retards on the western front(which was probably deliberate stalling), Eastern Germany/Czech republic's would have been saved from the Soviets

>>33225368
This has never been the discussion. I'm calling you out for saying that taking Berlin would be a good idea. You have provided no reasoning whatsoever, because you're some conspiracy obsessed nutjob.

>>33224430
Tank looks pretty intact, even the liner on the gunners hatch is still there meaning no fire happened.

>>33225392
Of course taking it would have been a good idea
By your logic D-Day shouldn't have been done, and the Soviets should have been allowed to occupy all of Europe

>>33225408
>Of course taking it would have been a good idea
Justify it. What difference does 50 miles make? Is it worth hundreds of thousands of casualties?

>>33224517
>while repairing a Panther's or a T-34's was a nightmare.
T-34 has Christie Suspension. Has no need of racks. If something breaks, merely make of keep driving.

>>33219972
Did you not read before replying?

>>33225426
Stopping the soviet hordes from sacking & raping the finest city in Europe makes no difference ?
It wouldn't have been hundreds of thousands of casualties if it was the allies taking it

>>33224920
>Did you think the US were the good guys or something
Clearly you haven't seen how the French and Russians treated Germany.

>>33220030
wew

>>33219684
What a shitpost

>>33225435
Justify the decision. "Muh rape" is not a justification. And yeah, it would have been ludicrously heavy casualties. Maybe not quite as heavy, but it'd still be hundreds of thousands. Even if you presume that the Western Allies were twice as good as the Soviets and thus took half the casualties, that's still 170 thousand odd casualties.

>>33225474
It's not a matter of the western allies being twice as good as the soviets, which they obviously aren't because they lost every semi-even fight
It's about the fact that the Germans were hardly fighting against them

Or, they could just end the war properly which doesn't involve unconditional surrender + occupation

File: helmuth.jpg (19KB, 220x303px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 220x303px

>>33220620
The red pants were more of a statement of the world that went to war. The officers at the time still wore their white gloves and used their sabers. The mindset got millions killed not the equipment.

>>33225491
>which they obviously aren't because they lost every semi-even fight
Yeah, nah.
>It's about the fact that the Germans were hardly fighting against them
Depends on the Germans and the area. Do you seriously think that the Germans directed by Adolf Hitler himself, with his coterie all around him and those men who would have to fight, in defense of the capital city, would just lay down their arms without a fight? Would they fight only halfheartedly against the Western Allies? Again, taking that HALF metric we achieve the same fucking figure.

>Or, they could just end the war properly which doesn't involve unconditional surrender + occupation
Not happening. That decision was made years ago, and is certainly a valid way of ending the war in such a way that you guarantee that Germany won't rise again to cause trouble in 20 years. You might not want to remember it, but that's what people of the time thought would happen, the Germans included.

And again you try to avoid justifying the decision. At this point, you're arguing in bad faith, and deserve no further responses.

>>33220821
It was the American Contract in 30-06 that sucked . Which wasn't even used on the western front. This is a meme doesn't mean it isn't funny though.

File: be042a71a3b7bdbf4d31f8e9a1535ed2.jpg (35KB, 500x375px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 500x375px

>>33223347

Chale!

>>33220902
Everyone wants to think some magic weapon would've done this or that. If only I had...

>>33224045
Hey, fuck off with your logic, the only metric a tank should be measured by is how thick it's armour is, how big it's fun is and how aesthetic it is!
Nothing pointless and retarded like crew comfort, ergonomics and situational awareness....

>>33225511
>Yeah, nah.
Nah, yeah.

>>33221317
Custer's trapdoor Springfields failed due to the .45-70 load was being loaded into manganese cases at that time. Nearly all trapdoors had broken cases stuck in the chamber. Beta testing in the field FTL.

>>33225139
The correct answer was the mg 08.

>>33225511
>That decision was made years ago
Doesn't mean they have to keep it, the Soviets broke all their promises

And yes, the Germans were surrendering enmass to the western allies
He said he could have taken it, and I believe him. This talk of casualties is besides the point.

>>33219684
all of them

File: no-google-fags.png (72KB, 722x361px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 722x361px

>>33221012
Motherfucker changed my img :P

File: deeply goncerned tank.png (3MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1920x1080px

>>33221482
MONKEY MODEL, CREWED BY ARABS, SHTORA WAS TURNED OFF, DOESN'T COUNT

>>33220549
LOL supersonic, helicopters can't even go half the speed of sound. The fastest actual helicopter is incidentally also one of the biggest; the chinook. It goes just under 200mph. They say the "euro opted is the fastest but that is rotorcraft with two airplane engines mounted to it so I don't count it. It's more a bastardized gyroplane.

Fun fact, helicopters fall out of the sky at a higher terminal velocity than they can fly horizontally.

>>33221482
>>33221555
240 - 501 Im still supprised the number of kills for Mig 21 is so high.

>>33225565


The Lynx is the fastest chopper.

>>33225565
the S-97 cruises at 250 mph

>>33220459
Designed for urban warfare in the sense of: there's no point trying to camouflage ourselves here. Let's just make sure we look so distinct so we don't get waxed by our own.

Or so sayeth this retard OCS cadre SFC I had the misfortune of working with. Took every conversation as an opportunity to "casually" throw out there he was a sniper. Or how all the cadets would be dead because he's a sniper. Or what a sniper would do. Fucking twat

>>33225577
In a dive

>>33225582
Still in beta

Chinook is king.

>>33225582
>>33225631
>>33225591
Fucking samefagging dumbasses.

>>33225631
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPMKUA8xgAg

Looks real to me

>>33221482

Wow, western aircraft are not only the superior weapons platforms flown by patricians, but they are objectively and without argument the more asthetic planes. How do slavic/chinese/non westerners live knowing that they can't make anything that actually looks good while getting a positive kill ratio? It must be horrible living with the proven fact of being an inferior non-westerner. I wouldn't be caught dead flying a tractor like a MIG or SU, or whatever shit chink copy the slants have. Western minds truly are masters of the air.

>>33221039
>M-16A1
>shit

Not really M8, with that 20 inch barrel, the m193 round performed just fine, even with that 1-12 twist rate. It was already a fine rifle at that point.

>>33219991
Must have a1

>>33223937
I don't know about running for president but he was a problem for Truman and Ike for sure. He wasn't going to tow the line and was far to stubborn to listen to reason and stay quiet. I don't think the jews had anything to do with this even though he hated them and they are perfidious rats. Anti-Sematism was pretty common at the time before muh 6 gorrillion so I doubt the jq had anything to do with his death. Truman though or hell even Chruchill. The anglo would have had no problems even he even caught a whiff of german rearmament I mean they gave most of "liberated" europe to the soviets.

File: IMG_2437.png (107KB, 640x1136px) Image search: [Google]

107KB, 640x1136px

>>33225638
Right . . .

>>33225537
>the Soviets broke all their promises
So did Churchill. I blame Winston for his fecklessness in dealing with the commies. He was in over his head with Stalin and let his prejudices against Germany cloud his judgement all throughout the war. Potsdam sealed Europe's fate. Britain would have been BTFO if Hitler wasn't so inept himself and went through with sea lion.

>>33219991
>>33220127
>>33223076
>>33223472
>>33224307
ITT: How to spot faggots who know literally nothing about the AR platform

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LyXndCxn9K4

>>33225916
For future reference callum is a tripfag troll on /k/ who is retarded and shitposts. He changes his tripcode and recently he got his glock 19 stolen while taking a shit at a gas station.

>>33226025
>implying Sea Lion would have ever worked.

>>33226059
LOLOLOLOLOL! Oh my fucking god that is amazing. This made my night

>>33226062
He had the RAF on the ropes but didn't know it. They would have been fucked if he continued. England was simply not prepared. Theres a good book out now called "We March Against England: Operation Sea Lion, 1940–41" The author presents some good evidence that Hilter could have succeeded if they would have followed through. It's a very unbiased book not warped by complete propaganda. We are finally reaching a point where enough time has passed to take an objective look at World War II from all sides. Fun Fact Operation Sea Lion was never cancelled but was delayed until it was unfeasible.

>>33226129
>He had the RAF on the ropes but didn't know it.
What about the royal navy though? Bit hard landing troops if they sink all your transports.

>We are finally reaching a point where enough time has passed to take an objective look at World War II from all sides.
That's just wrong, I mean look at this idiot >>33225511 who still thinks the western allies were somehow better fighters then the germans despite the fact the only time the two actually fought each other at full power and not in some side conflict (the battle of france) it ended in a swift and decisive German victory.

>>33226129
Germany never had the ships, both warships and actual transports, to even get a sizeable invasion force to Britain much less actually supply it, RAF or no.

There was also still a little thing called the ROYAL NAVY that they would have to get through.

Also the "RAF was on the verge of collapse" was a huge meme. The Germans generally vastly overestimated the damage they were causing to the British, and this wasn't considering that they were suffering massive losses as well to the point where they could no longer devote fighters to fighter sweeps.

>>33226177
>>33226208

Third party here
I used to have a copy pasta for this but I lost it so here's the short version.

Field Marshal von Manstein covers this in his post-war memoir. Sea Lion could have had a chance at working but ONLY if all three Wehrmacht commands got on the same page and ONLY if it was launched in the immediate month to two months after the evacuation of the BEF. The issue was acquiring enough ships to land on the British coast (most of the vessels were planned to be Rhine barges and the like). The seas were also unfavourable for the rest of the year other than that two month gap (same thing with Normandy in '44) and by the time the Germans would have been theoretically ready for an invasion the British had already got over the shock of losing and got their shit together.

The Heer, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine were all on separate pages believing that they could all bring about Britain's defeat by themselves, and Hitler/the NDSAP believed that the British could somehow be brought to the table. Post war revelations by the Germans, and in some places their Allied counterparts, show that the only way the RN could be bypassed would be for the KM and Luftwaffe to work together - something that would have never happened.

Supplies to the landed Germans would have been spotty at best according to Manstein.

File: 1467626601419.png (29KB, 854x668px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 854x668px

>>33226225
Accidentally a whole sentence.

Supplies to the landed Germans would have been spotty at best assuming they would make it, according to Manstein.

I should also mention that not only did the 3 branches fight among themselves but Hitler would fan the flames/create issues that would have never raised for the purpose of having them come to him as arbiter.

>>33226225
I really find it hard to believe that even if they got their shit together, the Germany army could achieve in two months what took the Allies 2 YEARS to prepare for, and even then D-Day came very close to failure despite all the preparations and contingencies the Allies planned for.

>>33225527
Tiger crew comforts were great though

>>33226249
>I really find it hard to believe that even if they got their shit together, the Germany army could achieve in two months what took the Allies 2 YEARS to prepare for
Keep in mind a few things:
1) The Allies had plans for an invasion of Normandy as early as '42, but concerns with Africa/Italy and general control of the Mediterranean were considered more important.

2) The Germans in '42-'44 were well entrenched and prepared. The British in '40 had evacuated from the continent that very same week. Where as the Allies had to land ashore against well entrenched, fresh, prepared Germans the Heer would have landed against disheveled, war weary British troops with low morale.

>>33220902
Militaries weren't reluctant to switch from a single-shot design to designs with internal magazines because they didn't realize the advantages of such. The problem is that if your soldiers are shooting fifteen times more ammo they also need fifteen times as much ammo supply. This was enough of an issue to put a three round burst mode on the M16 during Vietnam, so imagine how problematic it can be during an age where wagons and horses are the dominant mode of resupplying an army across hundreds of miles

>>33226262
Yes, but the British had something the Germans certainly didn't.

An actual navy guarding their coasts.

File: 300px-M16a1m16a2m4m16a45wi[1].jpg (22KB, 300x274px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 300x274px

>>33219684

>>33223468
You are outside of your fucking mind. They don't even have the operational range of a pavelow. They are a little faster, but loud as all fuck. It's basically a pointless aircraft.

File: 1488590930174.jpg (70KB, 720x720px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 720x720px

>>33219706

>>33225527
lmao

>>33220528
>thread about the design
>problem was unrelated to the design

>Kthxbai
Is this 2008 and are you a grill?

>>33224045
A german tank's transmission malfunction? Oh please. Like that would ever happen.

>>33220968
That is so false I don't know where to begin.

File: pz-destr-carro-armato-m13-40_imagesia-com_dujl_large.jpg (46KB, 600x418px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 600x418px

>Riveted "armor"

>>33225558
On at least one occasion the mortar wins this by hitting an ammo truck while it was rearming the tiger.

>>33226295
I can tell you probably just browsed wikipedia for that info.

>>33221834
You may be shocked to learn that the only practical advantage of the HK416 of one of DD or FNH's M4's is that they are easier to operate with surpressors.

The Ranger Reg. Still uses M4's. With some exceptions, SF guys use M4's. The SEALS use whatever was in RECOIL magazine last month.

But the vast majority of western SOF guys are using........ The M4 or another rifle of the same pattern.

File: image.jpg (422KB, 820x1428px) Image search: [Google]

422KB, 820x1428px

>>33221482

>>33220590
>there are helicopters that approach sanic speeds.
You are so full of shit that it's sad.
Do yourself a favor and read a bit.

>>33225435
>the finest city in Europe
But they never got near Venice.

>>33226177
>swift and decisive German victory
A R R A C O U R T
Shermans>Panthers

>>33226250
Except for hatches and maintenace

>>33226058
>faggots who know literally nothing about the AR platform

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a953110.pdf

tell us again how your government ignored engineer and field reports and completely fucked stoner's design beyond recognition in order to push the M2 Carbine on behalf of Remington so a couple of generals could get rich.

>>33225591
UCP wasn't designed specifically as an urban camo pattern. It Was part of a long development process where they wanted to make a multi-terrain pattern. A lot of patterns were tested but at some point some retards decided to basically ignore the whole process and take the Canadian CADPAT and then swapping the colours out with grey ones since something like "hey man, these grey colors are in common in all the tested camos so if we make a pattern with ONLY those it must work in all conditions right?"

>>33220425
nice pasta

>>33225497

The 222 was a perfectly fine scout car, mongrel.

File: Yamato Sinking.jpg (138KB, 800x517px) Image search: [Google]

138KB, 800x517px

>>33226287
Navies are overrated and the UK's navy's air force was a joke full of biplanes.

Guns

File: 37F37894-82D5-43C5-954D-D97C877DE65C-16817-000013B23491325E_tmp.jpg (1MB, 2092x1346px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2092x1346px

Was the Mutt as dangerous as they say?

>>33220725
I'd like to see some proof on that.

>>33226523
Yeah, I'm sure the Germans didn't give a shit about the Royal Navy given all the time and effort they dedicated to actively avoiding them.

>>33226598
The thing is the Germans didn't even have an air force for their navies, unless you want to count the Bf 109 Ts they made.

>>33225591
>Designed for urban warfare

When most of the buildings were mud huts.

>>33225573
When you have uneducated people flying in proxy wars you can have some pretty hilarious results.

>>33225517
Spic

>What are some shitty military designs that got hundreds of guys killed?
Germany's U-Boats of WW2. Their casualty rate was astronomical, with the vast majority only sinking a few smaller merchant vessels before being sent to The Deep. Massive, massive waste of resources.

>>33219706
Today I saw one of those flying to the near airbase.

>>33225573

Mig-21 did the best in Vietnam where it was used in it's designed role, which is interception with friendly GCI. The North Vietnamese were able to achieve parity with the USAF in North Vietnam.

Then the Arabs tried to use them for Air Superiority over Israel, and the Mig-21 is hopeless at air superiority. The situational awareness of the plane by itself is hopeless. The radar has a very narrow azimuth and only 15 minutes of runtime, which means you basically can not do search with the radar, only final target acquisition. The plane also has very short legs, which means that it can't pick and choose fights. Once it gets into the combat area, Mig-21 has to engage immediately or turn back home. Combine that with the poor search radar and you see that the Mig-21 doesn't have a high chance of even finding the enemy without ground control.

For it's specific designed purpose, the Mig-21 does it good enough while being extremely cheap. Outside of it's comfort zone Mig-21 is complete trash.

>>33226523

How would Germany protect their supply lines?

Each division would need around 500-600 tons of supplies weekly in order to operate, not counting the requirements of non-divisional logistics required to deliver supplies to the Divisions depot.

There is no ability to contest the Royal Navy in the channel with combatants. The Luftwaffe can do their thing, but while a single surface combatant is present in the channel, it's closed to German logistics.

Germany also doesn't have the shipbuilding capacity to replace their lost naval transports.

Manstein was still hopelessly optimistic in his projections.

>>33219684
Except that design was perfect for what it was intended for (i.e. was not fighting a low-level insurgency).

>>33219842
>War Thunder/WoT kiddie detected
Next tell us how the M3 Lee was a terrible idea...
>>33219956
It was a poor design for crew survivability.

>>33220100
Fuark, how badly this shit blew up?

>>33220141
Again, not at all terrible at doing what it was designed to do (function in NI where their protection was sufficient and not looking aggressive or damaging infrastructure is essential).

>>33220607
>Luckily the odds of me meeting one are lower than Hitler's sperm count

File: yes.jpg (35KB, 493x387px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 493x387px

>>33221834

thank you

>>33226815
Did it wave?

File: 183469635445.jpg (5KB, 348x145px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 348x145px

*ping*

>>33220708
It's a historical fact Germans even made jokes about it during the initial deployments.

In the end, it is a tank produced for zerg tactics because the US was (and is) a populous country with huge industry.
Making shit that would take many times as much effort to protect the dumb conscripts inside made no sense.

Well trained soldiers are a commodity you want to protect but back in the day they weren't really a thing in the US army or Russian army.
Hence tanks like Shermans or T-34, both of which were meant to be crewed by whoever as long as they could get the job done.

>>33227033
Read a fucking book you War Thunder playing child. Also German crews were very poorly trained past 1941, easily more so than American crews.

File: 1447796733538.png (3KB, 277x271px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 277x271px

>>33227056
>Also German crews were very poorly trained past 1941

>>33227056
>War Thunder playing child

I've never played War Thunder. I read books.
Books which explicitly mention jokes about the Germans calling them some sort of cookers because they lit up and exploded after a shot during the first deployments.
Accounts of stuff like their tracks getting melted in Italy, rendering them immobile.
Accounts of being on the definite losing end when encountering German armor.

>Is not true! I can't imagine a flawed design ever being used! We're humans, humans don't ever make things that break!
Explain the jokes then.
Eplain why British made their own version with a much bigger gun?
Explain why they were phased out in favor of the next time despite a crap-load of them still being perfectly operable years after the war ended.
It is a fine rustbucket design that got the job done. Nothing less but nothing more.

File: gun-230_1.jpg (19KB, 480x480px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 480x480px

>>33219684

>>33227078
It's a well known problem for all branches of German military in WW2. Partly it was the need to replace losses quickly and partly it was failing to rotate veterans out to train new recruits (the allies being sane did this early on).

File: C2oZgbMXgAAup3h-678x381.jpg (67KB, 678x381px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 678x381px

>>33219684

>>33227088
>Books which explicitly mention jokes about the Germans calling them some sort of cookers
I assume you mean Tommy cooker, at least you didn't mention the Ronson-myth...
>and exploded after a shot during the first deployments.
Not as common as was claimed and quickly solved with wet ammo storage.
Additionally German soldiers making jokes is not a reliable source of fact, particularly not when you consider the effect of propaganda (American veterans are often no better here).
>Accounts of stuff like their tracks getting melted in Italy, rendering them immobile.
Actual internal numbers from the American military tell you how reliable the Sherman was, anecdotes are interesting but are not used by grown-up historians unconditionally for a reason.
>Accounts of being on the definite losing end when encountering German armor.
The decided factor in most engagements was crew quality and who took the first shot, not which tanks were involved. American veterans are also known to have cried 'invincible Tiger' at an alarming rate, anecdotes are once again unreliable: hard numbers support the Sherman.

>Explain the jokes then.
Jokes don't mean shit all.
>Eplain why British made their own version with a much bigger gun?
The Firefly was designed to engage the occasional heavy tank in part due to a lack of other designs, not replace the Sherman entirely. The Sherman itself was sufficient for the vast majority of likely engagements (hint: meeting a Tiger was extremely uncommon) particularly when upgunned. The British made use of many more unupgraded Shermans than they did Fireflies.
>Explain why they were phased out in favor of the next time despite a crap-load of them still being perfectly operable years after the war ended.
Shermans fought in the Korean War (I assume this is what you mean by 'next time) and with the Isrealis for a good while too. German tanks heaver than the IV were dumped post-war, the French gave up trying to make the Panther work.

>>33224268
FDR was a kike enabler duder

>>33227088
>>33227142
>Comment field too long
Shermans were also used by the Israelis in various forms, eventually being upgraded and used in combat until the late 60s at the least and the late 70s-80s (not sure if they saw combat during this later period). I do not know off the top of my head if it was used anywhere else postwar but plenty of countries kept them around.
To claim that the Shermans were 'phased out' is factually untrue. The medium tank, of which the Sherman is a quintessential example, also became the modern MBT while the heavy tanks favoured by the German were an evolutionary dead-end.

We haven't even begun to touch upon the logistic and strategic advantages of the Sherman, an area in which it is superior to both the T-34 and any German tank you care to name.

>>33220459
I couldn't even see the British soldier in the thumbnail

>>33227088

> Explain the jokes then.

Can you actually source the joke? Not from Belton cooper kthx.

And BTW, here's and actual diary entry from a German.

> Tommy is using an American tank (M3 medium) which has incredible armor and very good armament

And that statement would be true, because the Afrika Corps were still mainly armed with Panzer 3's and short barrel Panzer 4's. The M3's (and later M4's) armor was very capable of dealing with the 5 cm that formed the bulk of Afrika Corps anti-tank guns.

The 75mm gun, however mediocre it was later, was also fully capable of dealing with Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 F. It would not be until the Panzer 4 H that the 75 would start having problems.

>>33226208
Had the germans continued even with their huge ineptness the RAF would not have been able to keep up. So much of the story was written by the British and much was written for propaganda. Lot's of half truths from both sides. But the reality is they were closer to defeat than they would admit. Also the battle of Britain was not this great turning point.

>>33223347

> Stancefags

>>33226914
>The North Vietnamese were able to achieve parity with the USAF in North Vietnam
No.

>>33226208
>>33227217
Also remember that the BoB was used to persuade the American public how ebul the nazis were for bombing cities AND to persuade them that the British weren't going to surrender. Really it was a propaganda masterpiece and a fuckup for the Germans (not just in planes but think of the experienced pilots lost - if you were show down over the UK you'd spend the rest of the war in a camp, British pilots would be back in the air the next day).

>>33224920

> Muf poor germany dindu nuffin!

Worse than niggers.

> But we wuz millenary reich!

Worse

Than

Niggers

>>33227078
The new recruits were poorly trained, the ever-decreasing veterans were top-tier but were not rotated out to train up new crews. If you prefer 'crews trained post-1941 were poor'.

>>33227217

> Had the germans continued even with their huge ineptness the RAF would not have been able to keep up. So much of the story was written by the British and much was written for propaganda. Lot's of half truths from both sides. But the reality is they were closer to defeat than they would admit. Also the battle of Britain was not this great turning point.


I'd say that it was the other way around.

The Germans were far from victory at any point, and the Brits exaggerated how close they were to losing during the war to get more aid from the Americans, and then after the war to exaggerate their heroism in standing against Hitler "alone".

British intelligence overestimated Luftwaffe strength and production by a factor of 2, while similarly, Abwehr underestimated British fighter production by a factor of 2.

Then you throw in the fact that both sides overclaimed by a factor of 2-3 times as much as actual losses, and then British "losses" were often recoverable, both in pilot and airframe, while German losses were not. The Germans based their later force estimates on both their flawed estimate of British replenishment, as well as their own overclaiming. When the Battle shifted to the city bombing phase, the Luftwaffe were actually confident they had Fighter Command down to 100-200 fighters when in reality they had closer to 700, almost numerical parity with the Jagdgeschwaders.

Fighter command was fully able of keeping up with the rate of losses, and in fact, ended the Battle of Britain with about 100 more fighters and vastly more experienced pilots than it started with.

>>33227226

They came pretty damn close.

The thing to remember is that the North Vietnamese only used fighters, while bombers formed the bulk of USAF/USN packages.

A Mig-17 that shoots down an F-105 then dies to an F-8 or F-4 still traded itself 1 for 1.

>>33226025
>So did Churchill. I blame Winston for his fecklessness in dealing with the commies
He quite famously planned Operation Unthinkable in case it went to a war, Churchill was no friend of the USSR (just enemy of my enemy).
>Britain would have been BTFO if Hitler wasn't so inept himself and went through with sea lion.
No, there is no way in hell Sea Lion would ever have worked short of giving Germany nukes.

>>33227306
>They came pretty damn close.

No, they didn't.

>>33226249
Doing it immediately after Dunkirk would maybe work on a morale level (assuming you had the boats lying around). Hitler was offering extremely favourable conditions for peace and the shock of losing France + all of the equipment of the BEF and then being invaded (even if that invasion would run out of food/ammo/fuel in ~a week at best) would probably get the public to back a peace agreement if it wasn't labelled as a surrender.

>>33226262
The problem with a naval invasion is not actually the landing it's the logistical effort required to maintain your beachhead. The allies had to float entire fucking harbours across the channel for D-Day, for example. Every man in the field needs ammo, food, uniforms, transport, lodgings, medical care and a whole train of officers and non-combat personnel to keep everything running. Vehicles need this for each crew member + a fuckton more for the vehicle. The German army also relied on horses for most rear-line logistics, these need food etc too. Then you've got to account for transporting more men and vehicles across to both replace casualties and build up forces for breakouts.

>>33226427
Venice is a polluted shithole, Florence is better.

>>33226578
I'd rather risk death in a jeep than rely on horses. Honestly I don't think it itself was that much more dangerous than other vehicles at the time but it was mostly driven by young men with poor self-control, no oversight and nothing much to lose.

>>33227222
this

File: IMG_2114.gif (11KB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 480x270px

>>33220590
>there are helicopters that approach sanic speeds.

>>33223783
Are you talking about the one where the pilot came down hard as fuck? Pretty sure user error is the problem, not the air frame.

File: IMG_2119.jpg (167KB, 638x484px) Image search: [Google]

167KB, 638x484px

>>33220968
>The Henry is a rifle that you could load on Sunday and shoot all week long.
>quote from a Confederate officer whose regiment got BTFO.

Yeah, you're right. Didn't make any difference until muh-sheen guns came around.

>>33227616
The Confederacy did not lose because of small arm designs anon, they lost because a stagnant, unindustrialised society stands no chance in an industrial war.

>>33226815

Lived in Albuquerque for years. You'd see those fuckers flying around over the Mesa constantly. Was really cool to be driving in the desert and see 4-5 of them storming above you.

>>33227357
That still leaves the question of how the fuck the Germans would get across the channel when the BEF grabbed pretty much every boat they could to evacuate and the Germans completely lacking a navy of their own.

>>33228364
Note it says (assuming you have the boats lying around). I don't think it would work even if you did, for the record, but it's the most reasonable possibility.

>>33227234
It was the only battle to be named before it happened.