>Always use hollowpoints in your self-defense ammo This is

>>33116192
>Ballistic gel simulations are optimistic at best, because gel doesn't have skin and bones.

Which is why you don't try to translate one to one, and instead follow the FBI recommendation of twelve inches as the absolute minimum.

>>33116221
fpbp

/thread

>>33116221
Penetration is only part of it. You also need to leave a large enough permanent wound cavity for the man to bleed out. Flesh is elastic and tends to close back up after a bullet has passed through it, but not with a wadcutter. A wadcutter crushes its way through.

>>33116337
Kill yourself

Yes we know, you're still jerking off to the .45colt thread after playing too much new vegas. I get it, you want to load like the devil but you haven't stumbled upon of lost arcane knowledge

Stop trying to get other people killed

>>33116385
If I do, I'll be sure to use a proper bullet.
>>33116395
>Stop trying to get other people killed
Isn't killing people the very purpose of a gun? Why would you own a gun and not load it with the deadliest bullets?

>>33116337

Lucky Gunner pls go

>>33116192
>>Always use hollowpoints in your self-defense ammo
>This is bad advice. Hollowpoints do increase impact area, but at the cost of greatly reducing penetration. I have seen x-rays of a hollowpoint bullet with perfect shot placement which nevertheless failed to kill the man because it stopped short of his heart. Had it been FMJ, he would have bleed to death in seconds. Ballistic gel simulations are optimistic at best, because gel doesn't have skin and bones. The best bullet shape for a fast kill at close range is a wadcutter. It punches a nice, big hole all the way through a man.

You're dumb. Stop posting.

>>33116337
>>33116192
At pistol ammunition velocities, the wider the wound channel the more lethal the wound. Hydrostatic shock isn't a factor at these velocities, so any round that expands will necessarily leave a wider wound channel and therefore be more lethal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>33116517
If you look around YouTube for awhile you should find some videos of medical conferences concerning injury by pistols

They noted that handgun rounds often did not manage to fully penetrate a body, often stopping in the ribs/before they hit anything important

Something like 79% didn't manage to hit anything (and hence people ending up in hospitals for treastment)

They were specifically looking at 9mm/.45 for most of it also

So - if your in the Bahamas you could used your HP and do fine
If your somewhere that people wear jackets - dont

>>33116617
see: >>33116577

tl;dr: 9mm < 45acp, and FMJ < HP

>>33116577
The amount of time it takes to incapacitate through bleeding takes way too long to matter in self defense.
Tissue damage might cause a psychological stop due to pain and shock but that's hardly reliable either.
The only way to reliably incapacitate someone with a pistol round is to damage the central nervous system e.g. the spine or the brain stem.
You need penetration to do that and many hollopoints out there don't deliver on that.

>>33116781
>The amount of time it takes to incapacitate through bleeding takes way too long to matter in self defense.
True.
>Tissue damage might cause a psychological stop due to pain and shock but that's hardly reliable either.
True.
>The only way to reliably incapacitate someone with a pistol round is to damage the central nervous system e.g. the spine or the brain stem.
True.

>You need penetration to do that and many hollopoints out there don't deliver on that.
Greater wound channel diameter gives you a marginally better chance of nicking the spine. So a single 45acp would give you a better chance than 9mm, but your carry capacity of 9mm will be higher giving you more chances...

Regardless, trying to hit the CNS is wishful thinking most of the time. You should instead try to optimize for psychological stop. 99% of the time, that's what actually stops somebody, not a lucky hit to the CNS.

>>33116781
>You need penetration to do that and many hollopoints out there don't deliver on that.
Some do, some dont. As always, you need to choose the best load and projectile based on what youre using it for.

>>33116826
what's the best place to shoot for a "psychological stop"? and is that how cops are trained to shoot?

Just mag dump center of mass.

>>33116337
ALL bullets crush their way through

>>33116912
>not calling someone a "faggot" after shooting them
Ever heard of adding insult to injury?

>>33116192
>>33116781

> I have seen x-rays of a hollowpoint bullet with perfect shot placement which nevertheless failed to kill the man because it stopped short of his heart.

We always do say that shoot placement is king but under a stressful situation very few of us can get a perfect shoot. So the next best thing is to make a wound channel so big that the bad guy's blood pressure drops that he passes out. With FMJ pistol ammo the wound will close put and the blooding will be minimum.

So if you are a great shoot under stressful situation, knock your self out and carry FMJ. But in the real world I know I'll be shitting my pants taking what ever shoots I can. I don't care if he is dead or not, as long as he is incapacitated.

>>33116889
Cops are trained to mag dump center of mass. Dump as much lead as possible with as much energy behind it as possible into their torso. Maybe exploding their ankles would be a better psychological stop, but since you're unlikely to actually score a hit aiming at ankles that's academic.

>>33116928
With rifle rounds, hydrostatic shock damage to local tissue is a real thing. In those cases much of the wound damage is caused by ripping and tearing, not just crush.

>>33116928

False

The HP round will shatter the bone. FMJ will punch right through with only a hole and minimum shattering.

>>33116976
Wadcutters are in between that and cause a permanent wound cavity much closer to their actual bullet diameter than a fmj while providing consistently more penetration than hollowpoints.
I think that was OP's intention and I would have to agree that we should give wadcutters more thought for defense ammunition.
Just another tool in the toolbox.

>>33116337
HPs also crush tissue

>>33116192
Oh hey its this thread again.

Fact: actual autopsy results tend to correlate strongly with BG test

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

oh and you know, something something hydrostatic shock actually can have some effects but it isnt reliable lol, what would doctors know about that though amirite

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf

>>33116928
round nose pokes, resulting in subcaliber wounds due to inflammation

>>33116781
Youre wrong about bleeding, if you destroy the heart or aorta, the person will be incapacitated within less than a minute. Also if you poke enough holes through the lungs, the peron will be down within a couple minutes. Basically, mag dump on the chest if you want someone to die. The more rounds in your pistol the better

Just buy high quality ammo

>>33117243
>Youre wrong about bleeding, if you destroy the heart or aorta, the person will be incapacitated within less than a minute.

Aorta yes, heart is a "maybe."

Example: When it comes to hunting deer (or pigs, goats, w/e), heartshots add a layer of unpredictability to the kill. They'll always die, sure, but the time it takes can be anywhere from a little less than a minute to long enough that the animal's managed to sprint 300 yards away from where you shot him before he drops dead.

The lungs and liver are the fastest-bleeding organs in mammals, and science tells us that (besides a lucky shot to the spine or brain stem) blood loss is what kills.

>>33116407
He means some retard taking your advice will shoot some thug in a life or death self-defense situation and instead of stopping the threat with FBI and other expert recommended self-defense ammo, will fail to incapacitate their attacker and get killed because you think punching holes with fucking target ammo in somebody will kill them quick enough to save your life.

>pro-tip: if your not a fucking oper8er then you won't hit cns and kill them with a fucking target round.
>I know you aren't an oper8er because you think wadcutters are viable for self-defense.

>>33117012
FYI: minimum shattering=less bleeding

Each bone shard will contribute to the wound channel staying open and will create smaller fragment channels.

>>33117278
What caliber are you shooting deer with that they survive a direct hit to the heart. I guess if it grazes the walls of the heart. But if it puts a hole throught the ventriculars or atrium I cant see it running 300 meters.

>>33116192
I don't know about you but using FMJ as self defense ammo makes me worry about over penetration. I wouldn't want to hit someone standing behind whoever I'm trying to shoot. Of course it's understood the person I'm shooting at is purely out of self defense

>>33116617
>If you look around YouTube for awhile you should find some videos of medical conferences concerning injury by pistols
>They noted that handgun rounds often did not manage to fully penetrate a body, often stopping in the ribs/before they hit anything important
>Something like 79% didn't manage to hit anything (and hence people ending up in hospitals for treastment)
>They were specifically looking at 9mm/.45 for most of it also
>So - if your in the Bahamas you could used your HP and do fine
>If your somewhere that people wear jackets - dont

You're dumb too. Stop using rimfire for self defense and stop posting.

>>33116987

Confirmed to know nothing about police training.

Just stop posting

>>33116577
If you watch the video, Grabinsky says that hollowpoints fail to penetrate. He shows the X-ray I mentioned earlier where a 40 caliber hollowpoint almost hit the aorta.
>>33116768
We're not talking about FMJ. We're talking about wadcutters.
>>33116781
>The only way to reliably incapacitate someone with a pistol round is to damage the central nervous system e.g. the spine or the brain stem.
It's very unlikely that even a master marksman would be able to count on hitting the brain or spinal cord.
>>33116928
No, pointy bullets and even round nosed ones poke through.
>>33116976
I said WADCUTTER, not FMJ.
>shoot placement is king
In the actual case I mentioned, shot placement alone wasn't enough. You need shot placement AND penetration.
>>33117041
But not always deep enough.
>>33117185
>hydrostatic shock
A meaningless buzzword. Hydro means water. Static means not moving. Hydrostatic shock, if it meant anything, would mean "water not moving shock."
>>33117252
The point of this thread was to explain what high quality means in terms of ammo.
>>33117318
Jim Cirillo is considered an expert, and he used wadcutters.
>>33117344
Wadcutters will shatter bone too.
>>33117362
WADCUTTERS ARE NOT THE SAME AS FMJ.

>>33117243
In less than a minute someone can give you a fatal wound or knock you unconscious.
That is not fast enough.

>>33117400
Stop watching hollywood movies dumbass.

>>33117355
Your never been hunting is showing.

>>33117278
penetrating a ventricle usually results in unconsciousness in about 20s last i heard. also, liver and lungs don't bleed out the fastest. Brain and heart do, along with any of the connections between the two. during hypovolemia your body naturally decreases blood flow to anything that isnt the brain/heart as an emergency measure. ignoring that the kidneys and lungs would be next in line.

>>33117403
>A meaningless buzzword. Hydro means water. Static means not moving. Hydrostatic shock, if it meant anything, would mean "water not moving shock."

It's a meaningless buzz word developed by big game hunters and military surgeons to be used as a colloquialism for an observed phenomena you imbecile. good job ignoring the paper in favor of arguing semantics tho

>>33117450
The correct word is cavitation, and it's not a significant wounding mechanism except in the case of high velocity bullets. Only a few handgun cartridges are capable of that kind of velocity.

>>33117410
Id youre lucky the threat will run away the moment the shooting starts. If not you should expect that you are going to get shot at and most likely shot. You fantasies of quick drawing on a threat and killing them before they can shoot at you are dumb.

Wadcutters do deserve more attention, and Semi-Wadcutters. When revolvers were dominant, Semi-Wadcutters were the go to bullet of choice.

>>33117428
Ive been hunting, not alot. Ive never actually had a deer run away on me. I use 30-06 and have only hunted whitetail.

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Why not just have hollow point bullets that have a small amount of poison that would incapacitate or kill the target? You could even entomb it in a layer of wax.

>>33117550
It is actually very common for deer to run after they have been shot, even when the hunter uses a powerful rifle and perfect shot placement.
>>33117558
Because those are not yet on the market, at least not at any of the stores I shop at.

>>33117487
No, it's not cavitation.

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>>33117574
ya dingus, you'd have to just buy hollow point bullets then get a syringe filled with poison and put small droplets in it.

Then you would have to get some hot wax and drip a small amount of it on the bullet to seal the poison. That could make it feasible to defend yourself with a .22

ATF, if this is illegal, pls don't kill my dog.

>>33117403
Jesus Christ, OP. You're going to get someone killed. FMJ is not a carry round for a reason. Stick with hollow points in a useful caliber and multiple shots.

>>33117635
How many times do I have to repeat:
WADCUTTERS ARE NOT THE SAME AS FMJ

>>33117355
>>33117437
The prevailing theory I hear tossed around is that by destroying your circulatory system's pump, you've "locked" oxygen-rich blood inside the animal's brain and extremities, which causes the animal to remain conscious and mobile for longer than its total blood loss (which, don't get me wrong, would be just as significant as you imagine) would otherwise indicate.

>>33117644
wadcutter salesman plz go

>>33117699
Alright look, for the sake of clarity:

YES wadcutters ARE FMJ. Happy now? Can you understand??

>>33117709
Some wadcutters ARE FMJ, but not all FMJ aren't wadcutters, (all of them are, SUPER SIMPLE STUFF HERE GUYS)

>>33117709
no they arent. they dont even have a jacket brah

>>33117487
cavitation is the temporary space created by the stretching of tissue caused by a bullets passage, it is no "hyrdrostatic shock" per se

>>33117487
>Courtney and Courtney suggest that
remote neural effects only begin to
make significant contributions to rapid
incapacitation for ballistic pressure wave
levels above 500 PSI (corresponds to
transferring roughly 300 ft-lbs in 12
inches of penetration) and become
easily observable above 1000 PSI
(corresponds to transferring roughly 600
ft-lbs in 1 foot of penetration)

so, are you entirely illiterate or just ignoring what the article says?

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What's the best .38 Special Defense round out of a J Frame?

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What's does /k/ think of pic related. Everything I've seen on it all seems to be extremely positive in testing.

>>33117815
most likely gypsy bullshit, cant say for sure until ive seen one put through actual flesh at an appropriate temperature though. i very much doubt that these rounds will produce a channel greater than what one would expect with flat-nosed ammunition. pretty sure the reason they do in BG is merely an example of the mediums short comings.

Wasn't the webley 'manstopper' a wadcutter round? IIRC bongs called expanding ammunition dum dums and that led to the hague convention eventually

not implying this has relevance in modern lethality

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>>33116192
>The best bullet shape for a fast kill at close range is a wadcutter.
>It punches a nice, big hole all the way through a man.
>big
>hole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQEP0xSaCYI

>>33116192
You do realize that wadcutters perform similarly to hollow points inside the human body, right?

>>33117697
That makes sense I guess. I looked up heart trama I found this gem

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC161908/

Dude got shot in the chest with a shot gun. A pellet entered the heart, cut the RCA and was fine

>>33117697
I've heard that before. I don't know if it's true, but I do know a shot through the heart is going to cause so much bleeding that the drop in blood pressure (hypotension) will cause unconsciousness and death very fast.
>>33117709
No, they're not.
>>33117754
That's exactly what the secondary wounding mechanism is. Hydrostatic shock is just pseudoscientific jargon.
>>33117811
This stuff or something similar.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/929977/buffalo-bore-ammunition-38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter-box-of-20

>>33117815
Have never tried so I don't know.

>>33117886
Probably. Wadcutters have been used as combat ammo for a very long time.

>>33117906
When I say big, I mean the size of the bullet itself. That is big compared to round nose FMJ.

>>33117910
Yes, but they penetrate nice and deep, unlike many hollowpoints.

>>33117548
I have a 44mag levergun on layaway for durr hunting, after quite a bit of research on bullet design i came to the conclusion that a keith style semi wadcutter was the best (mostly because a full wc lost so much more velocity, but it also wont cycle in a lever) and most versitile design,

Projectiles for hunting dangerous game are all, practically speaking, a monolithic copper or lead projectile with amassive meplat, as big as can reliably feed from a magazine. look at buffalo bore and garret cartridges.

I understand you are talking about defensive handguns not hunting dangerous african game, but if big angry animals that are trying to eat people are being stopped with a slow heavy flat nose bullet. I dont see why a comparativly small angry animal wouldnt be stopped just as effectivly by scaleing down the same concept to fit in a pistol. And in a revolver you can have a full caliber meplat in the form of a wc.

>>33118015
Keith semiwadcutters and WFNGC (wide flat nose gas check) are both good for short range, pistol caliber hunting bullets. Doubletap, Buffalo Bore, and Grizzly Ammo all make some pretty good loads.

>I understand you are talking about defensive handguns not hunting dangerous african game, but if big angry animals that are trying to eat people are being stopped with a slow heavy flat nose bullet. I dont see why a comparativly small angry animal wouldnt be stopped just as effectivly by scaleing down the same concept to fit in a pistol. And in a revolver you can have a full caliber meplat in the form of a wc.
That's the idea.

>>33117604

what the fuck is that image? spirit animals did WWI?

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>>33116192
wadcutters are garbage paper target ammo.
>This thread made me lose all faith in this bored

>>33118059
Yes.

>>33118079
Not an argument. Wadcutters have been used as combat ammo for many years and are still marketed as such.

>>33117969

"That's exactly what the secondary wounding mechanism is. Hydrostatic shock is just pseudoscientific jargon."

I think you may be making the same mistake as official proponents of what i like to call "facklerism". ill try to break this down a little further, drop the ad hominems, and clarify in the hopes of productive discourse as i myself used to be firmly in the fackler camp. It is my belief that there are three components contributing to wounding when a high energy projectile passes through a body.

1.Wound channel. this is the tissue that is crushed/torn by coming into direct contact with the projectile in question.

2. Proximal Radial effects. this is local tissue tearing and hemorrhage that occurs immediately surrounding #1. it is caused by the temporary cavitation of tissue(stretching) and is only seen in relatively inelastic tissue or very high energy rounds(usually rifles).

3. Distal neurological side effects(AKA hydraulic/hydrostatic shock). This is caused by the travel of a pressure(or shock if you will) wave along the relatively incompressible liquid contents of major blood vessels into very delicate tissues in the brain. typified by minor to moderate hemorrhage particularly in the hypothalamus and hippocampus but other areas of the brain as well. Results in irregular breathing, and eeg/ekg readings in 20-40ms. it is the same phenomena by which explosives cause TBIs, but the damage is more minor as the pressure differential is much lower.

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>>33117886
No

OP is 100% correct in his assessment of penetration>expansion. There appear to be few people who agree, but the fact of the matter is that once a bullet hits bone it can't lose 90% of its energy and still be as effective as a bullet that retains more of that energy. FMJ isn't the way to go, but OP's assertion of wadcutters has merit, though they're limited to revolvers.
More research needs to be done on bullet shape and material before a better option than hollow point bullets, for automatics, becomes a tangible option. I like Lehigh's ideas, and those funky Ruger bullets have some upsides, but they're still not as good as they should be.

>>33118079
"bored"
>losing faith in anything other than your beginner's english book

>>33118041
Go read the confessions thread if it isnt up, half of the idiots here a nogun fags, dont get bothered by the ones throwing a shitfit because you actually read gun stuff instead of browsing trap porn on /b/ between shitposts

>>33118161
samefag.

Courtney & Courtney go over number 3 in much greater detail than I do, their study draws upon multiple other studies performed by different scientists from different countries and using different mammilian models that repeatedly show similar distal neurological effects. The theory has significant and repeatable support along with a solid basis in repeatable mainstream science, much study is done on the damage caused by the passage of pressure waves through the human body in respect to blast induced trauma and specifically TBIs. They even have a piece that addresses criticisms from Dr. Fackler of such papers.

>>33118213
Check out some of the bullet design threads at castboolits, this has been very VERY deeply researched by some very intelligent people, and alot of them go back to the kieth swc and wc for general use

>>33118161
>>33118233
>posts logical and sourced dissenting opinion.
>no reply.

some things never change...

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>>33117604
To late

>>33117644
>How many times do I have to repeat:
>WADCUTTERS ARE NOT THE SAME AS FMJ

Wadcutters are FMJ.

>>33117741
>no they arent. they dont even have a jacket brah

Sure they do. A full metal one.

>>33118015
Because DGS rounds are substantially heavier and faster and are meant to crush their way through heavy hidesl, muscle and bone with minimal deflection. DURING A HUNT, which isn't the same as an altercation in that the hunter usually has the option for a clean shot on an unaware animal.

Not an adrenaline filled scuffle with another person

>>33118098
>Not an argument. Wadcutters have been used as combat ammo for many years and are still marketed as such.

All militaries have been forced to use FMJ since the Hague convention.

>>33118720
homogeneous bullet designs, by definition, do not have a jacket. to have a jacket the bullet must be made of two different materials, with one on the outside of the other. thats what a jacket fucking is

>>33117558

because that's fucking retarded and im pretty sure also illegal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScHzHz3dItI

Can someone explain how this Russian 9x18 hollow point managed to get 13 inches of penetration

>>33116192
Honestly I think a lot of us should just stop bullshitting about what the best bullet is and admit we just like certain ones for superficial reasons.
I like semi-wad cutters. I can't justify it over full wader cutters, hollowpoints, or fmj.
I just think it has the best compromise between tearing stuff like a hollowpoint would cut, and penetration a fmj has. full wad cutters just seem obsolete compared to most modern hollowpoints you never see any data on them like other bullets, nobody uses the design anymore in the last 30-40 years

>>33117811
Now that I just said wadcutters are obsolete in my last post I would honestly go with full wad cutters with that

>>33119307
Because most proper HP can get at least the FBI minimum.

>>33119482
I know, but a cheap Russian-made HP getting decent penetration and expansion...

Just doesn't seem possible, Russian ammo is cheap but it's generally crap that's only good for plinking

>>33119506
Silver bear is one of the better Russian brands normally they don't typically down load their ammo like wolf does.

>>33116192
>I have seen x-rays of a hollowpoint bullet with perfect shot placement which nevertheless failed to kill the man because it stopped short of his heart
With what? A .22?

>>33117849
>>33117969
Nod the XD, but these guys did some deer hunting with the Xtreme Penetrator, it's the closest I've seen to real-flesh test.
https://www.full30.com/video/20437495d624b6be7456f87e1d40312b

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>>33116192
You can still use a HP, just use a bigger gun.

>>33117403
>>33117487

So not to beat a dead horse, but the term hydrostatic is used in other applications than "water not moving." It's used in engineering as a stress type that's applied in all directions equally instead of uniaxial or biaxial stress. It's called this because the static force of water on an object produces an equal force in all directions (in general, don't be a sperg and bring up some obscure reason it wouldn't.) So in this case, hydrostatic shock could be shock due to the energy transfer of the round in all directions, not cavitation or "water not moving" shock.

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>>33116192
Do you really think someone is going to get back up after taking a hollowpoint to the chest, regardless of penetration?

>>33119972
Why would you shoot someone who was laying on the ground? Unless you were implying that a pistol has the power to actually knock someone to the ground. But you wouldn't think that would you, thats dumb.

>>33120137
The force won't knock him to the ground. But the pain will send him there.

>>33116192
I got you senpai
https://underwoodammo.com/

>>33117815
I've done tests with the 9mm+P and the 45ACP+P on warmed up pig bodies. It's not a one-to-one test, but the wounds were nice and deep while having good cavitation. It's not snakeoil, I can say that much.

>>33119815
Thanks for the data point anon. very interesting results to say the least, that 45-70 exit wound was quite impressive. wonder how the result would look with lower velocity variants.

>>33120226
Pics?

>>33120293
Don't have any I'm afraid. The video was on a phone that ate shit thanks to a 4 wheeler crash some months back. The next time I can get a hold of some animal bodies, I'll do some show-and-tell for /k/ with meme rounds.

>>33116889
I think ive read somewhere if you shoot the hips a person basically cant move. Could be wrong about that

>>33120175
The pain from getting shot doesn't come on immediately. In gun fights where the cns isnt compromised, most people continue to shoot after they have been shot.

>>33120337
By shooting for the hip, youve got a good chance at fucking with their ability to stand. Also its a good place to shoot if you suspect they have body armour on. But there are not any vital organs in the hip, so the wont die quickly

>>33120370
Fair enough. I concede.

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>>33116192
If .455 manstopper cast lead rounds were good enough for the colonial british, it's good enough for me.

It's almost like you don't want to be putting 1" wide holes in people?

>>33120334
i know id appreciate it!

>>33120337
It's pretty much meme tier.

>>33120226
>>33120334
I'm interested in this too, the design of the XD seems to make sense (vs basically every other non-HP design) and I'm tentatively considering it for EDC.
I'll probably miss it when you post the results though.

>>33116192
Shot placement is King.
Penetration is Queen.
Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.