There is no need for any of the existing pistol cartridges except

>>33095543
>Handgun bullets fail to penetrate enough to reach vital organs
>Recommends rounds with shit penetration

Almonds=Activated

>>33095568
Believe me. Something like this is going to have no problems penetrating skin, meat, and bone.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/782723/grizzly-ammunition-45-colt-long-colt-p-335-grain-cast-performance-lead-wide-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-20

>>33095543
>.50GI
Dropped faster than it's ballistic trajectory.

>>33095543

citation needed

>>33095699
Don't take my word for it. Here's a doctor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>33095648
How far away are you shooting someone with a handgun?

>>33095736
I'm actually more concerned with the excess recoil of the .50GI, for the same ballistics as .45ACP, it's fucking worthless, I might as well be carrying around a pocket of heavy rocks for throwing.

At least suggest .45 Super, you reprobate.

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>>33095543
>50 GI

kys

>>33095828
Not an argument.

>>33095543
>.50 GI

I've never even HEARD of this so it can't be that good.

>>33095736
>Video shows .40 S&W (~600J) failing to penetrate flesh
>Memes that .45 ACP (~500J) will totally penetrate reliably

Either go for an actual magnum caliber or go sit down with the 9mm peasants.

>>33095543
Wtf is a 50GI ?

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>>33095838
it's a fucking meme round boyo. 700FPS are you kidding me

just shoot 10mm

>>33095890
"I like my .45 ACP, but wish it could go even slower and be more expensive. Also, I hate having a variety of guns to choose from." -50GI users

>>33095858
Not op, but just energy is a VERY shallow way of understanding bullets. The bullet construction, sectional density, velocity and weight of projectile are very important. A heavy bullet can easy penetrate do to its weight allowing it to retain energy better. If op was serious he would just use wad cutters as they will always make a hole corresponding to their diameter, with out having to rely on expansion. Unfortunately wad cutters are only viable in revolvers.

>>33095852
So use 45 Colt or 45 ACP.
>>33095858
Failed to penetrate because of hollow point construction. A heavy, hard-cast bullet would have shot him through and through. Kinetic energy is a misleading measure of stopping power. A baseball has more kinetic energy than a small caliber pistol, and a man running at full speed has more than a 357 magnum.
>>33095890
Essentially a slightly bigger 45 ACP. Made out of the desire to fit a 50 cal in a 1911.

>>33095899
>>33095914
When properly loaded, it can reach 850 with a 300 grain bullet.

>>33095890
Some faggot REALLY wanted his 1911 to be .50 caliber without thinking of a good reason why or a good application, or maybe that he should have been looking at another weapon entirely.

It has nearly the same ballistics, but with more recoil and much shorter range. Not to talk about cost, have fun finding cheap .50GI plinking ammo for your faggot gun.

>>33095935
Oh shit, it's still inferior to .45 Super!

>>33095974
It's expensive because it's not in mass production.
>>33095981
So use 45 Super then, or even 45 ACP +P. Don't get bogged down in minor details. The main point is to use bigger bullets and not to use hollowpoints unless you can be sure of adequate penetration.

>>33095925
>Kinetic energy is a misleading measure of stopping power. A baseball has more kinetic energy than a small caliber pistol, and a man running at full speed has more than a 357 magnum.

Technically true. Smaller, faster things penetrate better relative to their kinetic energies.

That's why if you really wanted to fall for the "one shot stop" meme, you would get a .357 magnum instead of fuddy-five AARP.

>>33096062
357 magnum has ample penetration, but it is lacking in impact area.

>>33096025
>because it's not in mass production
And it's not in mass production because it's dumb and gay.

>.45ACP +P
Even gayer, .45ACP brass is too meek to hotrod.

>>33096072
>Recommends ball ammo
>Thinks a .357 hollowpoint will lack impact area

Also, even if you used ball ammo in your .357, you would still get a deeper and therefore more damaging wound than the slightly-wider .45

>>33095601
If that's true then why wouldn't 9mm be better considering it can be loaded to higher velocities than .45ACP? Aside from "lmao muh big boolit" which has no bearing on anything.

>>33096104
A properly loaded 45 ACP FMJ or hard cast with a heavy bullet would probably penetrate all the way through.

>Thinks a .357 hollowpoint will lack impact area
You have to balance expansion with penetration. Too much expansion, not enough penetration. Too little expansion, not enough impact area. You also have to consider weight retention. Expanding bullets rarely retain all their weight unless they are monolithic.

>>33096133
>"lmao muh big boolit" which has no bearing on anything.
Of course it matters. Impact area is very important. If it weren't, we'd all be using 22 magnum.

>>33095543
miracle millimeters get 15+1
.45 gets 7+1
I'm sure that 2.5% increase in kinetic energy is really going to help though

cant trusth those weaker rounds to penetrate, 45 ACP or go home.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

>>33096172
Then why not just use .500 Magnum? Or .950JDJ? Or just spend your life training in the mountains so you can gain superhuman strength and EDC a gau 8 on your back every day?

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>>33095543

>>33096161
>A properly loaded 45 ACP FMJ or hard cast with a heavy bullet would probably penetrate all the way through.

I think the video you linked earlier though shows how well a large frontal area with around 600 Joules behind it does in terms of penetration. A .45 would fair a bit worse of course because it gets more of its energy through mass than velocity and has less energy overall, but I think it proves the point.

A .357 incidentally has about twice as much energy, and in some cases nearly twice as much velocity as well. This penetrates.

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>>33096205
Actually a Glock 17 fits 17+1 and a modern Beretta 92 magazine fits 18rds flush for a total of 19 loaded, so that's quite a lot more (then there's 20rd mags which barely protrude)

But then, the FNX45 fits 15+1 rounds of .45ACP

>>33096218
>Resulted in a belief by Police officials that .40 S&W ammunition failed and .223 ammunition “saved the day”.

Note they didn't say that .45ACP saved the day, because .45 would've had even shittier penetration than the babby .40.

>>33095543
Do you even into terminal ballistcs?

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/Abstract.aspx?id=253695

>>33096172
Yeah, can you imagine if one of the most popular centerfire cartridges used in militaries all over the world was only, say, 5.56mm across?

>>33096265
Really? i thought it was because none of the LEOs hit him with a .45...

>>33096281
Yea, it'd really have to like fragment or something or gain a really poor rep as a man stopper....

>>33095543
Why not just use a good caliber like 10mm then? Bigger bullet and better penetration/energy than .45ACP, fairly common, and a bunch of good guns chambered for it.

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>>33096304
>or gain a really poor rep as a man stopper....

You're too obvious. Dial it back a bit.

>>33096304
It's funny because 5.56 is a much more reliable stopper than any non-magnum handgun caliber.

Also, even "powerful" rifle rounds are only .30 in diameter, that's smaller than a 9mm.

Something tells me you'd rather be hit with a .45 than a .30-06 though.

>>33096343
Rifle rounds>handgun rounds. are you confused youre speaking to somebody else or something? or is putting words in other peoples mouths the only debate tactic you know?

>>33096330
do you even 5.56?

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId758051

>>33096377
Assuming you're not OP and just inserted yourself into this discussion without reading up:

OP thinks that .45 > .357 magnum because a small increase in surface area trumps a massive difference in energy and velocity.

This is stupid, as illustrated by the differences between a .30 caliber rifle rounds (Speedy, small) versus a .45 caliber pistol round (slow, fat)

>>33095648
Fire

>>33096205
I repeat. Kinetic energy is not a valid measure of stopping power.

Also, you probably won't have time to shoot someone 15 times if he's shooting back/moving.
>>33096218
Your link says they were using hollowpoints, which, by design, have less penetration.
>>33096226
>>33096245
Not an argument.
>>33096247
>I think the video you linked earlier though shows how well a large frontal area with around 600 Joules behind it does in terms of penetration.
Because it was a hollowpoint.
>>33096280
Your own source says.
> findings of the participants included: except for hits to the central nervous system, instant incapacitation is not possible with any handgun bullet; temporary cavitation caused by a handgun round has no wounding effect; penetration of the bullet is a function of bullet mass and design, not velocity, thus given equal penetration, a bigger bullet will disrupt more tissue and potentially cause greater bleeding
>>33096281
That's a rifle. Apples and oranges. Also, 5.56 does very little damage unless it tumbles in the body.
>>33096317
>10mm then? Bigger bullet
It's not bigger. It's smaller than 45 ACP.
>>33096444
>OP thinks that .45 > .357 magnum because a small increase in surface area trumps a massive difference in energy and velocity.
You know what has even more kinetic energy than a 357 magnum? A man running at full speed.

Rifle rounds are fast enough to create major temporary cavitation. 357 magnum is powerful enough to create a little bit of temporary cavitation, but it won't turn flesh into soup like a full-size rifle round. Pistol calibers are essentially hole punches, where bigger is better.

>>33096510
>Rifle rounds are fast enough to create major temporary cavitation. 357 magnum is powerful enough to create a little bit of temporary cavitation, but it won't turn flesh into soup like a full-size rifle round. Pistol calibers are essentially hole punches, where bigger is better.

.500 Magnum operates pretty much at rifle pressures. Why not just use that instead of .45ACP if bigger is better and you also want penetration and "stopping power?" Why is .45ACP the magic round? What about .460 Rowland? or .50AE even?

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>>33096510
>Also, 5.56 does very little damage unless it tumbles in the body.
You need to be more subtle.

>>33096568
Because the recoil of high velocity rounds makes them very difficult to use in handguns.

>>33096585
It's just a fact. Dr. Grabinsky said that if 5.56 doesn't tumble inside the body, the wound channel "looks like an icepick wound."

>>33095981
and 45 colt. atleast in non reproduction revolvers and older lever gats, 45 colt can be handloaded to outclass 44 magnum.

>>33096587
What do you consider "high velocity?" Because compared to .45ACP, 9mm is pretty much high velocity (or any other round really, LMAO). And if you load it hot with a hollowpoint it will have no problem penetrating and it will expand enough that even if you believe the size of .45 makes a difference it'll make it up.

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>>33095543
.50 GI
L
O
L
The 1911 is shit this round is shit, but the sum of shit you get when you chamber a 1911 in this caliber is exponentially more than the combined sum of the previous two components.

>>33096510
>You know what has even more kinetic energy than a 357 magnum? A man running at full speed.

What's this? Slow, heavy things do less damage relative to energy?

I wonder if any bullets are like this...

>That's a rifle. Apples and oranges. Also, 5.56 does very little damage unless it tumbles in the body.

If you could get 5.56 rifle ballistics out of a handgun, you would have a pretty damned good handgun. Unfortunately, powder burn rates and basic laws of acceleration mean that it's hard to rock 3000FPS out of a 4" barrel, but if we could we would.

Larger bullet diameter isn't a selling point, it's a crutch that pistol rounds have to lean on because of their limitations as pistols. Fortunately, advancements in powder chemistry and bullet design have allowed us to lean off of that crutch slightly with smaller, higher velocity pistol cartridges.

Unfortunately, some people would rather ignore those advancements in favor of 100 year old memes.

>Because it was a hollowpoint.

And as a hollowpoint, it had a wider cross sectional area than a normal .40, and that 600 joules wasn't enough to push that wider cross section, because large cross sections are inherently bad for penetration.

Almost like a certain other cartridge we were discussing that also has a wide cross sectional area and not a ton of energy.

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>>33096627
>Almost like a certain other cartridge we were discussing that also has a wide cross sectional area and not a ton of energy.
How will the fudds ever recover?

>>33096621
It depends on how much recoil you can take. Bullets weighing above 230 grains cannot be driven to supersonic without significant recoil.
>>33096624
Not an argument.
>>33096627
>What's this? Slow, heavy things do less damage relative to energy?
>I wonder if any bullets are like this...
You missed the point. The point is that kinetic energy is not a valid measure of stopping power. Stopping power is determined by how much bleeding a bullet causes. Big bullets that penetrate all the way through cause a lot of bleeding. That is why I assert that calibers 45 and larger and using non-expanding bullets are best for a handgun.
>Larger bullet diameter isn't a selling point
Yes it is. Bigger bullets make bigger holes.
>Fortunately, advancements in powder chemistry and bullet design have allowed us to lean off of that crutch slightly with smaller, higher velocity pistol cartridges.
Name pistol caliber fast enough to create significant cavitation. Remember that flesh is, in reality, much stronger than ballistic gel.
>100 year old memes
Appeal to novelty fallacy.
>600 joules wasn't enough to push that wider cross section
Because using kinetic energy as a measure of stopping power is pseudoscience.
>because large cross sections are inherently bad for penetration
No, poor sectional density is bad for penetration. You can manage a large impact area if you have the mass to literally back it up.
>>33096660
>Fudd
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

>>33096791
I didn't know Molyneux liked .45. I would have expected something more canadian.

>MFW modern quality 9mm loads expand to aprx .62" while the best .45ACP rounds expand to .90" or a little more

>MFW both rounds penetrate 12-15"

>MFW 9mm fags give up almost a 50% increase in in expanded diameter for "Muh wrists"

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>>33095543
Mfw 9mm can't make die.

Take any size bullet to the turd tract and see what happens to your body

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>>33096811
>>MFW modern quality 9mm loads expand to aprx .62" while the best .45ACP rounds expand to .90" or a little more
>
>>MFW both rounds penetrate 12-15"
>
>>MFW 9mm fags give up almost a 50% increase in in expanded diameter for "Muh wrists"

MFW .45fags give up over double the capacity to use a round in an ancient pistol design that kills equally as well as 9mm for "muh heritage."

>>33096811
>MFW both rounds penetrate 12-15"
In gel. Gel is not a realistic simulation of skin, flesh, and bone. In reality, hollowpoint penetration is even worse.
>>33096812
I never said it can't kill. I said it takes too long to kill.

>>33096845
Capacity is fine, but a one shot kill is the first priority of a handgun. Bigger bullets make bigger holes, and that's a fact, jack.
>>33096837
The same thing that happens if you get shot anywhere else (except brain stem). You bleed to death.

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>>33096868
>but a one shot kill is the first priority of a handgun
I can't tell if you're just pretending to be retarded anymore.

>>33095543
>Gel tests are a poor simulation of actual wound ballistics

source? and an explanation as to why law enforcement and the military uses it to test ballistics if it's not an accurate representation?

>>33096886
>I can't tell if you're just pretending to be retarded anymore.
Not an argument.

Also, did you just tacitly admit that 9mm takes multiple shots to be effective? Have some self-awareness.
>>33096895
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk
>source? and an explanation as to why law enforcement and the military uses it to test ballistics if it's not an accurate representation?
Because there's not much else to go by other than coroner reports unless you want to shoot live test subjects.

>>33096868
You won't bleed out if you get shot anywhere. Come on now, you're just trying to argue for the sake of argument. The infection is what will do the most damage if you get shot in the turd tract, bacteria will pour into parts of your body it shouldn't and it is incredibly painful

Only like, 3 people in the entire universe owns a .50GI.

Also: 9mm > .45

>>33096608
True but at the point you're doing that kind of loading you might as well be looking at .44 Magnum or .454 Casull.

I wish someone still made an automatic in .45 WinMag, I think with some kind of recoil buffer system, such as something on that 7.5mm FK, and with a short-recoil operation with a tilting block (like on a Beretta, except a more 1911 shaped slide that isn't wide open), with some porting, it could be pretty easy to shoot, with very little muzzleflip.

>>33097018
38 super > 9mm

>>33096847
>>33096921
>2k17
>acting like you know things you clearly don't

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?113157-Any-agency-collect-examine-bullets-used-in-actual-shootings

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf


>>33096895
he's a lying retard. only source he needs.

>>33097041
>.38 Super
Supercomp or bust.

>>33095543
how do you bleed more? bigger wounds
despite 45 being a bigger bullet, it travels slowly compared to 9mm, so it actually has less energy as it impacts the body
as a fellow 45 lover, you can be aware of your cartridge's limitations and still enjoy it

>>33096921
maybe take a coroners word for it, prophet of the one true caliber, .45 IS the winingist according to professionals

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

>>33096868
>a one shot kill is the first priority of a handgun.

Reliable one shot kills are not something handguns are ever good at. .45 ACP is just as shit at one-shot-stops as 9mm.

Your options are to A) Go full retard with a .44 magnum or .50 AE or B) accept the reality of rapid follow-up shorts.

Given that option B also grants you suppressive capabilities and the ability to engage multiple targets, I highly recommend that over doing Dirty Harry impression.

If you do choose A however, choose an actually powerful round, not just a slow one.

>>33097092
Why is supercomp better? Am genuinely interested

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>>33096791
Stopping power isn't real you fudd. The survival rate for being shot by a .45 is better than the survival rate from a 9mm. Look up the FBI stats before you go on an autistic rampage, fucking .22LR kills more people with one shot than any other calibre.

I know you'll say >muh .22LR is more prevalent and that's why there's more, but the point is pistol rounds are all equally shit at killing people. You won't "drop" a guy with one shot no matter what. And now you've gone and moved the goalposts with
>Stopping power is determined by how much bleeding a bullet causes.
which is fucking nonsense. Stick with using your katana for self defence while the rest of the world uses the best compromise for a self defence round, 9mm.

I love how you completely fail to comprehend your own pathetic analogy about how a baseball has more kinetic energy than a .357. You're so set in your mindset you take it to mean "kinetikz enerjy is worthless". It's not, it's to say that the same amount energy concentrated down to a tiny point is alot more damaging than spread out over a large area. Why are stiletto knives good for stabbing? By your logic everyone should use the widest possible blade because it'll make a bigger wound channel. Do knives have "stopping power" in your fantasy world?

holy fuck calibre wars are dumb but you are a step above.

>>33096600
double double noticed.
also, trolling is a art

>>33096847
Too long for what?

>>33096996
>you won't bleed out if you get shot anywhere.
what is femoral artery
what is a brachial artery
what is carotid artery
what is an aorta

Why not just use 500 S&W Magnum at this point?
It's even bigger!

>>33097204
What is the fleshy part of an ass
What is a finger
What is a toe

There's plenty of places you can get shot without bleeding out. Shit, people have gotten shot in the head and lived and they didn't bleed out

>>33097204
I talked to a cop that said he went to crime scene where a bouncer had been shot 7 times, when he got there the guy was standing and walking around, with a real pissed off look on his face, waited around for 20 min while he gave a statement and talked to them and then went to the hospital. So your argument is pretty uniformed if you think getting shot anywhere will make you bleed out

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I really hope if you goys are actually advocating using .45ACP as a carry caliber you're using it in a USP or Glock instead of something retarded like a 1911.

>use one doctor's opinion on ballistics to prove why .45 is some magic insta-gib caliber that will automatically save your life and get you a harem of supermodels to suck you off until you die

Please. There have been cases where a .45 has failed to kill, and cases where a 9mm dropped someone in one shot. All handgun calibers are shit for stopping and killing people. Use a shotgun or rifle instead of trying to argue why your specific caliber with .05 diameter more and 3FPS less is the killingest.

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>>33096600
Not it's not a fact, there is a lie of omission. What he said is true for shots over 300 yards or so, where 5.56 has lost enough of its kinetic energy that it doesn't fragment or cavitate as much as it does at, say, 100 yards or so. At 100 yards, cavitation and fragmentation are the chief means of damage. And it does not look like an ice pick wound. Pic related.

>>33097548
What is the fleet yaw problem as it relates to barrel length and twist rate for 500, Alex?

>>33097615
>fleet yaw problem
What does that have to do with what he said? Bringing that up doesn't change the fact that at close ranges 5.56 is going to fragment and leave a hell of a wound.

>>33096996
>You won't bleed out if you get shot anywhere

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>33097018
> 9mm > .45
Not an argument.
>>33097041
>38 super > 9mm
Not an argument.
>>33097076
See the video. A 40 caliber hollowpoint stopped short of a major blood vessel.
>>33097093
Bigger bullet, bigger wound. Kinetic energy is math on the board. Real life is different.
>Reliable one shot kills are not something handguns are ever good at.
I agree. That's why rifle exist.
>.45 ACP is just as shit at one-shot-stops as 9mm.
No, it isn't. It is better, though not perfect.
>>33097124
>If you do choose A however, choose an actually powerful round, not just a slow one.
Bleeding is what kills. Speed is a means to that end, not an end in itself. Bigger bullets make more bleeding.
>>33097130
>Stopping power isn't real
>fucking .22LR kills more people with one shot than any other calibre
Then why don't you carry 22 LR.?
>>33097150
Not an argument.
>>33097168
See my original post.
>The faster your enemy bleeds out, the less time he has to kill you.
>>33097222
Recoil
>>33097251
And?
>>33097415
That's another conversion. Right now, I'm concerned with bullets.
>>33097548
>>33097724

I said it does little damage if it does NOT tumble. You post a picture where it DOES tumble. Read what I wrote again.

>>33095601
Can only be fired out of a ruger revolver. Ill take a 44 mag over a 45 colt if I want to shoot hot stuff.

>>33097789
Use what you like, but when it comes to bullet diameter, go big or go home.

>>33097730
>Bigger bullets make more bleeding.

I don't think you understand how miniscule of an effect a tenth of an inch increase in diameter is compared to increased depth of wound due to velocity and the ability to rapidly make second, third, and fourth holes is.

Also, according to real data from real shootings, 9mm actually has a higher one shot stop rate than .45ACP, though only marginally, and both rates are absolute shit.

Whether you use .45 or 9mm, you will need to make follow up shots, and those shots can be faster, more plentiful, and better at penetrating cover with 9mm.

>>33097730
>Recoil

ALL THAT MATTERS IS ONE SHOT STOPPING

BIGGER BULLET EQUALS MORE BLEEDING

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>>33095543
without trying to argue i tend to take my approach to things ive learned in the military and expierences i had while deployed. Im a 9 mm guy myself. I take the approach of anything worth shooting once is worth shooting till its down and no longer a threat. Blood loss is a killer yes but shock is what will happen first. As you mentioned shot placement is key to a qick demise of a person. I think as in all things its the shooters prefrence to a degree. Unless

>>33097885
>increased depth of wound due to velocity
Hard cast or FMJ will penetrate through and through.
>Also, according to real data from real shootings, 9mm actually has a higher one shot stop rate than .45ACP, though only marginally, and both rates are absolute shit.
Not all else being equal.
>Whether you use .45 or 9mm, you will need to make follow up shots, and those shots can be faster, more plentiful, and better at penetrating cover with 9mm.
The first shot is the most important. You will very likely not have time for another.
>>33097907
If I had wrists of steel, I would carry a handgun in 50 BMG, but given the limits of practicality, 45 Colt and 45 ACP are the best options. 44 special is good too.
>>33098041
>Blood loss is a killer yes
Blood loss is THE ONLY killer unless you get a brainstem shot.
>but shock is what will happen first
Shock is due to blood loss.
>As you mentioned shot placement is key to a qick demise of a person.
Yes, but it is not the only factor.
> I think as in all things its the shooters prefrence to a degree.
Your preferences will not change the facts of biology.

>>33095543
>a layer of human skin
Not only is that vague, but also completely retarded.

>>33098235
Not an argument.

>>33098276
That's what he said.

>>33098321
Watch the fucking video, and it will make sense what I said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>33098340
mkay so by your logic 50ae 500s&w are all we need, bigger is better right?

>>33097730
I watched part of the video to the point I belief you are talking about. That death from firearms comes from bleeding. Right i understand that, but what you seem to fail to understand is that every gunshot wound doesn't make you bleed to death. It's not that complicated. If I get shot in the ass, through and through and it only hits muscle and fat I'm not gonna bleed out, whereas if I get shot in the lung I could die from the blood in my lung essentially drowning me. Do you see know not all gunshot wounds make you bleed out?

>>33098581
You're hired
Is what 1960's army brass would say

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>>33095838
>implying you had an argument to begin with.

>>33095543
over penetration
collateral damage
I've seen people live after being shot with a 45, I've seen people die after being shot with a 22.
anything over a 9mm is a bad choice for self defense

>>33098340
This dude's a troll.

I have a fun experiment, shoot yourself in each leg, one with a 9 and one with a 45, then try and take a walk and see how far you get. That should help in this debate. For science.

>>33098689
Why is anything larger than 9mm bad? Does that mean a shotgun with slug is bad for self defense? What about 50 ae? 44 mag? are they all going to penetrate the combatant AND have enough energy to damage the bro behind?
I would rather kill the enemy and wound the bro, then not kill the enemy and get stabbed etc.
I can't get behind your argument.

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>>33095543
>Medical science tells us that guns kill by bleeding their victims to death (except in the case of a shot directly to the brainstem).
And, you know, any other vital organ required for homeostasis.

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>>33095543
You're a big guy.

>>33098207
>The first shot is the most important. You will very likely not have time for another.

If you're in a situation where you only have time for one shot, then you either have a rifle or you are dead. Making a 1/10 inch larger hole than a 9mm does not imbue .45 with magical, soul-shattering properties. If 9mm won't kill them fast enough, 99% of the time neither will the .45

Anyways if kenetic energy is a meme and only cross sectional area matters, why would you carry anything but 000 buck in a Judge?

After all, four holes is better than one, right?

>If I had wrists of steel, I would carry a handgun in 50 BMG, but given the limits of practicality, 45 Colt and 45 ACP are the best options. 44 special is good too.

What does wrist strength have to do with anything? I thought the first shot was what mattered. Even if the gun flew out of your hand you'd have gotten the first shot in, and you'd have to be straight up fucking noodlarmed not to be able to use a .44 magnum.

>>33098779
yes. shotgun slugs 50, 44, 45 will likely kill the bad guy, and your child who is behind them.

>>33098918
If something's behind your target you're pretty much fucked unless you're using bean bag rounds, as there's always a chance of over-penetration or straight up missing.

>>33098918
Jokes on you I killed my child days ago

>>33098790
Death does not occur until the brainstem runs out of oxygen. In the case of a gunshot wound, this is caused by bleeding.
>Anyways if kenetic energy is a meme
Yes, it is.
>and only cross sectional area matters
Only blood loss matters.
>000 buck in a Judge?
Shotgun rounds are very good for killing.
>you'd have to be straight up fucking noodlarmed not to be able to use a .44 magnum.
I have used a 44 magnum many time. It hurts.

>>33098974
>I have used a 44 magnum many time. It hurts.

Well, that's fine because only the first shot matters right?

>Shotgun rounds are very good for killing.

So why would you use anything but a Judge? Clearly this is the singular, superior weapon by your logic.

Mind you, it's a totally shit idea because velocity actually does matter, but we're using your logic today.

>>33098974
>Death does not occur until the brainstem runs out of oxygen.
Yes, but the clinical definition of brain death need not apply if you've placed a bullet in the heart, lungs, head, ect.

>>33098974
not him but FWIW people typically stop prior to brain death due to syncope induced via rapidly decreasing blood volume/BP. brain death is a process that takes minutes to begin lol

>>33099023
People (and animals) continue living and moving after being hit in the heart and lungs. I have seen this firsthand more than once.
>>33099038
Again, bleeding.
>>33099022
>Well, that's fine because only the first shot matters right?
I could carry a 500 S&W if I wanted, but I don't want to deal with the recoil.
>So why would you use anything but a Judge? Clearly this is the singular, superior weapon by your logic.
A 410 is quite deadly, but I never said it was the best of all options.

>>33099124
>but I never said it was the best of all options.

It's clearly the logical choice though since velocity is a meme.

And I still don't understand why you have any aversion to recoil. It doesn't effect the first shot at all.

>>33099124
>People (and animals) continue living and moving after being hit in the heart and lungs.
You mean twitching and bleeding out? I've seen deer run a few yards with vaporized lungs but never a human.

>>33099176
You haven't seen many people shot. There are many historical records of Moro warriors and Afghans continuing to charge after being shot.
>>33099159
>It's clearly the logical choice though since velocity is a meme.
Attempts to mathematically quantify stopping power are a meme.
>And I still don't understand why you have any aversion to recoil.
Because it hurts. I don't wish to own a gun that I can't practice with without being in pain (though some people do).

>>33099243
>You haven't seen many people shot.
Neither have you. I've only seen like three guys get shot in my life and they were all in the chest. Killed or barely moving before dying seconds later.

>>33099159
Velocity is necessary to penetrate the assailant, unless you are hitting with a huge object, like a sledgehammer where penetration is not necessary.

How can you shoot well with a cartridge with too much recoil? He could drop the front sight due to flinch and miss. Also you have too shoot a certain amount of round to become proficient with a caliber. Therefore allowing you to hit a target multiple times.

>>33097130
>but the point is pistol rounds are all equally shit at killing people.
this specific one isn't good because none of them are good really isn't a valid argument in this instance

>>33099124
your posts seem to imply that death=incapacitation and that death doesnt happen tell brain death thats why i pointed that out

>>33099243
>Attempts to mathematically quantify stopping power are a meme

And yet you claim that it's all about that cross sectional area, which is what you think causes bleeding.

>There are many historical records of Moro warriors and Afghans continuing to charge after being shot.

Almost makes you think being able to shoot again rapidly and accurately is more important than a minute increase in the cross-sectional area of your first shot's wound channel.

>>33099342
samefaggin. not to mention anyone with basic anatomical knowledge or who likes kung fu a lot should've heard of the classic baroreceptor response by now and the potential role it could have in incapacition relative to bullet wounds is pretty obvi

>>33099322
>Velocity is necessary to penetrate the assailant

I have it on good source from OP that actually only projectile weight and cross sectional area matter.

>>33097038
True to some point, cowboy loads in my 45 colt are the easiest thing to shoot, very accurate. I tried my dads 44 magnum, and it didn't feel as nice to shoot, even in similar loads. Maybe I'm just fucked.

>>33097126
Much smaller rim, generally feeds better.

>>33099533
Nope, that experience mirrors mine. Until I got more comfortable with the 44 mag I shot shitty with it. Same thing happens with every caliber+gun combo that has too much recoil for you to handle at that point of time.
You might flinch, pull the trigger too fast, all sorts of crap and pull the shoot.

>>33099349
>And yet you claim that it's all about that cross sectional area, which is what you think causes bleeding.
I never said that. I said that cross sectional area, all else equal, tends to kill faster. Factors like bullet shape, shot placement, and in the case of a rifle, speed, also matter.

And before you ask, the reason why speed matters for a rifle is because of secondary wounding. Flesh is elastic, but only to a certain extent. A rifle will stretch flesh until it tears, so much so that it leaves a cavity much larger than the caliber of the bullet. Pistols do this too, but not very much.

>Almost makes you think being able to shoot again rapidly and accurately is more important than a minute increase in the cross-sectional area of your first shot's wound channel.
The military switched to bigger bullets because they realized they needed them. Also, 60% is not a minute increase.
>>33099372
No, you don't. I never said that. A certain amount of velocity is needed to fully penetrate, but even a fairly slow bullet of enough sectional density can fully penetrate.

>>33097789
>>33097813
45 colt can be loaded pretty hot, buffalo bore makes stuff almost as hot as the hottest 44 mag. But when you have a firearm that is rated for those kinds of pressures, it can outclass 44 magnum and in some lighter 454 pressures (I tried with my Rossi m92 quite a bit) and it's rated for those kinds of pressures. Bear stopper for sure

>>33098621
OP will never respond to this because he is a lying faggot troll.

>>33098621
>but what you seem to fail to understand is that every gunshot wound doesn't make you bleed to death.
I never denied that. There are plenty of survivable gunshot wounds.

>>33099609
Yes, I agree. So does Grizzly ammo and DoubleTap.

>>33095568
>.45 Colt
>Bad penetration

>>33099243
>muh Moro Rebellion

Why does no one ever mention that the .30-40 Krag rifles the army was using at the time also failed to drop the Moros reliably? I remember reading that the only thing that reliably stopped the Moros were shotguns

>>33095543
>fudd general

>>33100217
The Krag had pretty weak ballistics. 30-06 was a major improvement.

Most .45 colt factory loadings I see are pretty slow, like 750 fps. How effective can those be?

Easily wrong, 1) 45 Colt and 50 GI are hardly made in inexpensive and/or common handguns besides revolvers. Also semi-autos > revolvers with regards to combat 2) There's only a difference of 2.43mm and 83-115 grains between 9mm and .45. The trade off is more rounds per mag and less recoil (better follow up shots). The number one thing to stopping an attacker is accuracy, you can stop an assailant with a single round of .45 but it's highly unlikely. More accurate round means more likely to stop them. But let's not forget that ALL (practical) handgun rounds pail in comparison to long gun rounds. The only reason one should carry a handgun is to get to a rifle or shotgun.

>>33095925
hey
hey

how about a gun chambered in men running at full speed

>>33100392
Just in case anyone doesn't believe me that handgun rounds are almost always non-lethal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PAHu-5-aUM

There is so much more than just bleeding. There is energy transfer to organs which damages them which in turn damages the body its the same concept as a grenade. Though youre right that bleeding it out is pretty important in terms of killing there are other things to consider such as entrance hole to exit hole ratio or entrance hole to cavity ratio. Due to bernoullis effect and pressure differences a large hole on the outside is not always optimal for blood loss. You can lose significantly more blood if the hole is small with a larger cavity behind it bc of how pressure works.

As for kinetic energy transfer which ever bullet transfers over the most energy will inherently do the most damage. Momentum and others dynamic properties arent important. KE transfer is key when inflicting organ damage and stopping power.

1/2mv^2

Depending on how far the victim is getting shot from will also depend on it bc potential energy can also be a factor as bullt drop will increase amount of energy in the bullet.

Furthermore to say FMJ is better than hollow point is wishful thinking at best. IF the hollow point fails to perform its intended purpose it will penetrate (with the same amount of KE as an FMJ) deeper than an FMJ just to its shearing planes (a failed hollow collapses into a cone usually)

If the hollow does perform its job than it hit with the same KE which will travel linearly all the way through the body until the hollow point splinters off at which case each splinter will spread the energy into a larger area therefore affecting more organs and destroying more capilaries and major vessels. If blood loss is key than hollow points are more efficient.

Inb4 what if body armor

That wasnt a variable included in the original discussion

>>33100392
>Also semi-autos > revolvers with regards to combat
Yes, but revolvers are good too. I personally carry an automatic pistol, but I would hardly feel undergunned with a 45 Colt revolver.

>There's only a difference of 2.43mm and 83-115 grains between 9mm and .45.
That's a huge difference. That's 60% more impact area and almost 100% more weight.

>More accurate round means more likely to stop them.
Who says 45 caliber handguns are inaccurate? I've seen target competitors use them.

> let's not forget that ALL (practical) handgun rounds pail in comparison to long gun rounds
That's absolutely right, so why on earth would you want to make your problem even worse by choosing a less effective bullet?

>As for kinetic energy transfer which ever bullet transfers over the most energy will inherently do the most damage. Momentum and others dynamic properties arent important. KE transfer is key when inflicting organ damage and stopping power.
Says who?

>Furthermore to say FMJ is better than hollow point is wishful thinking at best. IF the hollow point fails to perform its intended purpose it will penetrate (with the same amount of KE as an FMJ) deeper than an FMJ just to its shearing planes (a failed hollow collapses into a cone usually)
The idea is that a hollowpoint WILL expand and UNDERpenetrate.

>Inb4 what if body armor
Most modern body armor will stop damn near any handgun or shotgun round easily. You need high velocity to puncture armor.

>>33100053
Yeah you just listed arteries like some kind of autistic fag, you're a nogun arn't you

>>33095543
Except sound suppressor usage, 9mm is always right.

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10mm master race here. You can all go kys.

>>33098207
Paramedic here. You're a retarded. Tissue constructs you don't just have fucking Swiss cheese holes when you shoot someone. If your "bleeding is what maters" you're still talking about someone bleeding to death in 7 minutes rather than 9 or 10, which even if true is not beneficial for self defense

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>>33095543

>>33100345
It's because reproduction single actions except the ruger Blackhawk are only built to shoot those weaker cowboy loads. Most places here don't sell hot 45 colt, because they want zero chance of putting it into a reproduction. But some places do sell it, and if your firearm is built to shoot it, its fuckin powerful.

>>33102613
Might as well just go for .454 Casull then.

>inb4 .460 Smith and Wesson magnum
>inb4 [implying]meme tier and I can't even find any in any of my local stores.
>inb5 the model 460 can fire .460 Magnum, .454 Casull, .45 LC and even bloody .45 Schofield from the same cylinder.
>inb4inb4 .45-70 BFR HUEHUEHUE loads.

>>33102792
460, or 454 are both fine. I would feel comfortable if I had it over a 460 in burr country

>>33102526
I miss bullethead

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>>33096510
Wait... I know you! Yeah, you're that faggot who wanted to make a water-cooled, handheld minigun rifle thing that was chambered in 5.56 caseless. Yeah, you knew fuck all about weapons in general, yet you were convinced that it would work.
You're not a troll, you're just a retard with your head shoved a literal light-year up your own ass.

>>33097038
The Wildey Magnum is back in production. .45 WinMag is an available chambering.

>>33097038
>some porting
That's very bad for night time shooting, especially with magnum rounds. You will always have to balance recoil with power as to have better follow up shots.

>>33095543
5 0 0 S & W
0
0
S
&
W

>>33100766
Let's strip this comparison down to the absolute basics, it's just one small amount of lead vs a smaller amount of lead, the chances that either round will stop an attacker is exceptionally small, (I direct your attention the the video I posted). Also, I'm not saying .45 is inaccurate, I'm saying it's more difficult too rapid fire accurately when compared to 9mm. More rounds in a target means a greater chance of hitting something vital verses fewer, heavier rounds hitting something vital.