Do the same laws as with cap and ball/flintlock firearms apply

>>33076387
>one uses a cartridge
>one does not
I'm going to let you think this one through OP.

>>33076387

I think it's still classified as a firearm because it uses fixed cartridges. So yeah, probably has to go through an FFL. However, if you have a C&R license it can be shipped straight to you because it's 50+ years old.

You can have Martini Henry's mailed to your house, they don't count as firearms.

>>33076387
It fires a cartridge. This means it is not exempt under the non-fixed cartridge bit. This means no SBR or other NFA business without doing the tax satmp hoops.
It is however an antique because of it's manufacture date so not a firearm for terms of FFL transfer and a ferw other laws. Modern made ones are treated the same as any other firearm.

So I have to ship to an FFL....

Cry

>>33076409
>>33076427
>>33076443
I'm 90% sure you're wrong. IIRC any firearms made before 1899, even cartridge guns, are not legal firearms, meaning that they can be SBR'd without paperwork. Machine guns from before 1899 also fall under this rule

>>33076495
according to whom? in what context?

every time i read a state's hunting laws, they count black powder, flint locks, muzzle loaders, et al as firearms.

Also does anybody know where to get some cheap(er) ammo?

Im not trynna pay $4 a round

>>33076517
Right, for hunting and sometimes carrying, but only a handful of states have laws in addition to the federal laws governing transfers.

>>33076567
It's an ancient ass cartridge, the fuck you expect? If you don't reload why bother?

I suppose this would help

I live in PA

>>33076495
Antiques are still firearms. They are simply subject to less laws and regualtions.
If it does not fire a fixed cartridge it is not considerd a firearm under FEDERAL law.
There are specific exemptions to the NFA listed in the C&R books. ALL other cartridge firearms are still subject to NFA laws.

>>33076596
Well I gotta buy some of the ammo first to reload it.
Unless you know somebody who sells .570-450 brass

>>33076639
The internet numb nuts. Don't expect to find a plethora of it either. They make the rounds in limited runs due to it being ancient as fuck.

>>33076633
>ALL other cartridge firearms are still subject to NFA laws.
I'm gonna need a source on this. It seems to be an accepted fact that pre-1899 guns don't need to go through an FFL

>>33077241
Since when were FFL laws part of the NFA. Get your laws straight.

>>33077273
From the BATFE...

Section 2.2 Antique firearm.

Firearms defined by the NFA as “antique firearms” are not subject to any controls under the NFA.[22] The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture and the type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.

NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition.

Exempt.

>>33077438
Take the time and actually read.
Where in the NFA are FFLs mentioned? Just because something is not controlled under one law does not mean there are not other laws.

>>33077479
Fair enough, what I said here >>33077241 doesn't make sense. However, the ATF has decided that firearms that were made before 1899 and fire unavailable ammunition are antique. A Martini Henry falls into this category, so it is an antique and exempt from the NFA, meaning that it CAN be SBR'd without paperwork.

>>33077524
Things like 14 gauge and 6mm Lee are unavailable. There is still commercial 577-450 available, some even made in the US. Demand is increasing and supply is as well.

>>33077542
I was under the impression that new production 577-450 is made using brass shotshells.

>>33077438
You know this says that the the Martini Henry is subject to NFA laws right.

>>33077596
Because ammunition is manufactured in the United States?

>>33077581
Bertram, Jamison and a couple others still make brass.
The ATF has a list of what they consider obsolete or available ammo. Most centrefire rounds are not considered obsolete as long as brass is still being made somewhere. Pretty much the only "obsolete" fixed ammo is stuff like rim, pin, teat fire, etc...

>>33077603
The Martini Henry was designed to fire center fire ignition ammunition, thus does not meet the second requirement to be exempt from the NFA as an antique weapon.

>>33077612
A gun can be an antique if it is chambered in a centerfire cartridge that is no longer produced
>>33077605
If those are the requirements, then how do so many people get away with selling Mosins, Lebels, Mausers in 7x57, ect without going through an FFL? Also, what about IMA and Atlanta Cutlery who will ship their Gahendra Martinis to those without an FFL?

>>33076387
If it was made after 1 January 1899 it is legally a firearm.

It it was made on or before 31 December 1898 it is legally not a firearm.

Muzzle-loading arms that fire exclusively from separately loaded components (IE, no cartridge holding bullet to powder) are not legally firearms regardless of age, but breech-loading arms that fire exclusively from separately loaded components are (not that I know of any factory production ones, just ghetto-weaponized ramsets and blank guns) unless they were made prior to 1899.

Arms that are not powder-actuated are legally not firearms under Federal law, but several states have classified certain ones as such.

>>33077663
Some people break laws, it happens.
Some things like Gahendas are specifically exempt because their collecting value is greater than the shooting value. You would have to be an idiot or incredibly brave to try firing one with commercial ammo to start. The ammo for Gahendra rifles is not something that is commercially available, it has to be made for the rifle.

>>33077698
So the everybody who ships a pre-1899 firearm chambered in an "available" cartridge to a non-FFL holder is breaking the law? How could so many people be under the wrong impression? It seems like it's just accepted that pre-1899 guns, regardless of chambering, don't need to go through an FFL

>>33076639
Starline and Bertram both make brass, and it's readily available if expensive.
>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/598853/bertram-reloading-brass-577-450-martini-henry-box-of-20
On the plus side it lasts forever.

>>33076387
Most Martini Henrys were made before 1899 so they're legally antiques. Any that were made after 1898 (I believe Greener and some other companies made sporting versions) are considered modern firearms and must go through an FFL.

>>33077733
NFA is separate from standard firearms regulations (15 USC 5001).

You can't legally SBR, say, an 1896 Winchester model 92 in .32-20. But, you don't have to go through an FFL to transfer one.

Also, a few models of antique firearms that were manufactured with sub-16"/18" barrels (respective of rifle or shotgun) can have an ATF letter of exemption. Things like the '73 saddlering carbine and '92 and '94 Trapper models were produced with 12, 14, or 15.999+cunthair barrels in factory original condition prior to the law being passed.
>I have never seen a legit one that didn't already come with the letter, they're rare and extremely valuable collector's items even in dogshit bad shape and the people interested in them did their research early on, but on the off chance you do run across a legit one you have to do extensive research to prove it and pray the records are intact in the archives
Last WACA convention I went to had a '92 Trapper in .25-20 that was more rust than rifle and the guy still wanted 40 grand for it because they only made like 2 dozen in that caliber, and he had the documentation to prove provenance and the ATF exemption letter.

>>33077773
Ok, I think I understand now. OP can't SBR his Martini because it's a firearm under the NFA, but they can mail it to anyone or receive it without holding an FFL because under a different set of laws, it's not a firearm.