Why is Russia always behind the curve when it comes to aviation?

They are untermensch

Their aircraft are more than sufficient for their purpose and for sale to lesser operators.

War is a system of systems. Concentrating on one is childish and stupid. Know context instead.

>>33002763
You're right.

In that case, still relying on GCI for air control is antiquated and obsolete and shows that they are not serious about using the VVS offensively or to be a match for anything that isn't a third world power. The inability to produce low RCS airframes is merely a side-effect of a poorly maintained, equipped and trained air force.

>>33002694
Their planes are actually pretty good.

>Cheaper than american ones.
>Still do the job which is curb thirdworlder sand people.
>Being sold en masse to other countries.

Sometimes not having the most high tech awesome shit is better, russia is basically building shit for today war, USA is wasting money for the war that will never happen because we won't have a super power vs super power ever.

>>33002848
US expensive weapon systems are why we take microscopic losses in constabulary wars we do fairly often. We can effortlessly afford the money.

Not ideal, but comfy and effective and, especially, politically palatable.

Russia has infinite numbers of expendable troops because the nation itself is expendable. That's why while Russians (rightly) toast their dead at ceremonies, they don't bother overmuch about casualties.

The Wehrmacht found out Russian methods work. Idealism doesn't win wars.

>>33002694
>Why is Russia always behind the curve when it comes to aviation?
Inferior engines
Inferior digital electronic
Superior aerodynamic
More friendlier for buyer in price and additional options.

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>>33002694

I'm pretty sure there's some other reason for that. How idiotic do you have to be to believe Russians can't build S-ducts?
I swear for all the crying about vatniks here, their counterparts are even worse.

>>33002694
They only get 2 months a year where they can safely test their planes

>>33003552
>How idiotic do you have to be to believe Russians can't build S-ducts?

they havent built a supersonic fighter with one yet

>>33002694
They really fell behind through the late 70's and early eighties. While they produced some first rate aircraft at the time they had troubles regarding engine construction (their time between overhaul was pretty bad) and SERIOUSLY fell behind when western computers began to feel the microprocessor revolution and fell behind in terms of avionics. Soviet aviation was great for the most part, producing some state of the art, first rate aircraft; but as a whole there were several problems which they were unable to address that made keeping up with western designs more difficult as the cold war progressed.

The modern Russian air force still struggles with these problems, for example their fifth generation fighter's engines are a version of the same engines used on the Su-27/35 and its final production engines won't be in mass production for the better part of ten years.

If you want something to point to it can be argued that lack of funding and resources are primarily to blame, they haven't been keeping the rd-33 around for this long because its a good engine.

>>33003552
The problem is that the engines russia has are all based on the AL-31 family. While pretty decent in their own right they are from the 80s and even back then the US was pulling ahead in engine sophistication.
The AL-31 series require variable geometry inlets, same as the F-15 and F-14. While the US could afford to build divertless engines for stealth purposes, russia had to stick with the old engine series they had. This means russia is forced to either stay sub sonic and have S-ducts or go fast and forced to have straight ducts, making true stealth impossible.

>>33002848
>Cheaper than american ones.

If you ignore sustainment costs. For example, you need 6 engines on a MiG-29 for the same timeframe that you would need 1 or 2 on an F-16

Besides, quantity does not necessarily have as much of a quality of its own between generations of of aircraft

>>33003796
I thought so, but that's different from "lol russians are idiots cant make s-ducts".
They obviously don't have money for developing new engines, or don't feel the need to do so. Or perhaps lack technology.
>true stealth
No such thing m8. T-50 is quite stealthier than anything they have. Sure it's not on F-22/35 level but that doesn't make it shit does it.
But in any case my point is shitposters here act as if Russia is on Saudi level or something. Just because they are weaker than Americans doesn't make them a joke.

>>33004036
>Sure it's not on F-22/35 level
Dude. ATF was developed in fucking 80th. PAK-FA was created in 00th. Russians can use technologies that was not even invented in time of F-22 creation. There is 18 years gap between them and it is pure nonsense to think that Russians can't use modern software to calculate shapes and radar detection counter-measures.
>>33003796
>meme-ducts
>true stealth
When will you learn? Probably never.

>>33004572
>There is 18 years gap between them and it is pure nonsense to think that Russians can't use modern software to calculate shapes and radar detection counter-measures.
And yet they didn't. Even the Russians admit the PAK-FA is on 4.5 gen LO levels, around .1sqm.

>>33004572
>There is 18 years gap between them and it is pure nonsense to think that Russians can't use modern software to calculate shapes and radar detection counter-measures.

Well, by the looks of things they have not.

>>33004730
Or somebody trust too much to "Muh Future Weapon" - tier media where words "superior", "intellectual" and "advanced" are used more than word "success" in books for salesman.

>>33004834
No, a basic amount of research shows the PAK-FA is missing many of the stealth reducing attributes as many other stealth airframes.

Insufficient funding.
Brain drain.

>>33004834
the pak-fa is by no means a "success" though with both india and russia cutting back on orders and india pursuing its own actual 5th gen design

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>>33004572
>When will you learn?
When you lean that calling something you don't like a meme won't make it less true.
There is no such thing as a radar blocker that can prevent x-band radar.

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>>33006091
There is such things as radar-absorbent material some of them which did not exist when F-22 did not exist. And again - planes without meme-ducts had RCS fitting in requirements of 5th gen.

>>33006267
>when F-22 did not exist
when F-22 was in development

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>>33006091
You really believe this meme?

>>33006267
>of course russian can into s-ducts!
>presenting russian planes who later turn out to not have s-ducts one after another
>shitton of threads later no russian s-duct stealth plane was found
>errr....s-ducts doesnt matter, there are radar blockers!
Now watch how he will explain us that he is not that guy, and how it isnt strange that someone who "spontaously" walks into this discussion, starts right there were the other vatnik managed to end, instead of the starting there where all the other vatniks started til they got BTFO by whole threads.

>>33006577
Thats because it is the fucking Armatard who is a constanly lying hypocrite, that shills so retarded for russian stuff, that even the other vatniks dont support him anymore, when he starts sperging out again.

>>33006436
>unable to read the image they've edited

impressive

>>33006267
>And again - planes without meme-ducts had RCS fitting in requirements of 5th gen.
Um, no. The superhornet and X-32 have/had significantly higher RCS signatures than the F-22/F-35. Radar blocker vanes are a partial solution to a problem which should have been fixed on the design table.

>>33006656
>trust what people say, don't you dare apply your own critical thinking!

>>33006931
>didn't read the image
>didn't read the post they replied to

I have to hand it to you, that really is impressive.

>>33002694
Here is why:

The US and British share design plans, the Chinese steal them and replicate them (hilariously failing btw), and Russia waits until their engineers study the finished products and outift their current planes with modern technology.

Russia doesn't have the financial strength to invest in RND like the West does, or the technology or man power.

Russia isn't a joke. The West just likes to shit on Russia every chance it gets because for the most part hating Russia is the new in-crowd thing to do again.

>>33006436
>takes an illustration to demonstrate a concept as gospel
Are you brain damaged mayhap?
The air duct is longer than depicted and
Besides, even if there are some angles where parts of the fan is visible it is greatly reduced and in scenarios where you are heading towards the enemy you see next to nothing of the fan.
You cannot handwave everything away with "RAM lol", RAM coating needs to be tailored to the type of radar it is meant to defeat. You put x-band coating on your radar blockers, longer waves will bounce right off.

>>33007116
>RND
R&D fuckstick.

>>33004020
This doesn't apply to third world buyers. They don't have the same standards.

>>33002694

All the Jewish scientists and engineers who were around in soviet times have left Russia. All existing military technology is based on what was developed in the USSR in the 1980s. At this point, Russia's military industrial complex is almost Iran-tier.

>>33002694
US doctrine of air dominance vs. Russian one of Multilayered air defense. Russian fighters are frontline multiroles/point defense/interceptors

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>>33002694
Different doctrines.

They do not put much into stealth since they liked to focus on stand off range assaults while focusing more on ground control of contested space. Planes like T-50 and Su-35S uses L-Band for BVR IFF and USA doesn't have one yet. Probably America is behind the curve when it comes to aviation.

>>33002820
>The inability to produce low RCS airframes is merely a side-effect of a poorly maintained, equipped and trained air force.

The air force doesn't design the airplane dumbass, the defense sector does. Considering their economy collapsed for ten years it's pretty reasonable that they are ten years behind the curve.

>>33010477
>Planes like T-50 and Su-35S uses L-Band for BVR IFF and USA doesn't have one yet. Probably America is behind the curve when it comes to aviation.
That's because you don't need L-Band IFF when you've got AWACS, JSTARS, Rivet Joint, air superiority and actual, functional datalink for you and all your allies, genius.

>>33007613
>They don't have the same standards.

The engine issue was a good chunk of why Poland, who's no Britain or France in terms of purchasing power, ditched MiG-29s for F-16s. It's a very relevant sustainment cost.

mfw the pak-fa actually unironcically really for real actually does have fan shaped radar blockers like the f/a-18

>>33010579
>functional datalink
>F-22
Good one, mate.

>>33013256

The F-22 has a datalink, it's just one-sided at present. The fruits of the F-35 will be shifted over into the F-22 upgrade program.

>>33012524
>fan shaped radar blockers
Not gonna help against x-band radar such as found on every single fighter the PAK-FA would go up against.

>>33013293
>The F-22 has a datalink, it just does not work.
>>33013460
That's why they use radiation absorbing materials, dumbass.

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>>33006436
>>33006267
This is the shape of the F-35 air duct.
Unlike the PAK-FA, the F-35 will have full protection from x-band radar.

Because Russia is a corrupt petro-state.

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>>33013926
>F-35 will have full protection from x-band radar.
OK.

>>33013983
>Implying L-Band is any good for ID, track, or targeting

>>33013994
Yes it is. "L-band can't be used for targeting" is pretty outdated argument.

>>33014011
No, it's not. It's not at all. The resolution is too low.

So since you guys are talking about engines probably someone can answer me this: How can it be that the soviets/russians fell behind in engine technology when they were able to build shit like the NK33 in the late 60s. Yes, a rocket engine, but it shows that they got their metallurgy on point. What other branches are necessary and preventing them from catching up/caused them to fall behind in the first place?

>>33014086
Rockets are pretty much a solved technology since the 50's. It's literally just a bit of chemistry the rocket equation, and a good nozzle.

Jet engines, etc are an entirely different animal that takes a lot of time and testing to get tuned in right. In that regard you need exceptional quality control from when you mine it out of the ground until it's taken off the shelf and installed.

>>33014086
US and USSR build relatively equal number of rocket = investments on rocket science and tech were comparable. Both countries began their work from scratch and Nazi leftovers.
US and UK build A LOT bigger number of jet engines = investments on jet engine tech were incomparable. It's about size of market. Same thing with microelectronics, btw.

>>33014086

It might have had something to do with that Nedelin Catastrophe.

>>33014122
>>33014131
The NK33 uses a closed cycle oxidizer rich preburner and thus achieves an ISP thought impossible with kerolox engines in the west until Lockheed got their hands on one in the 90s. Only now are we starting to build comparable engines.

They somehow managed to come up with alloys to build a turbine and piping out of that can handle ridiculously hot, pure oxygen at high pressure. Yet their aircraft engines fell so far behind. That's what I don't understand.

>>33014144
The poor saps killed by that weren't responsible for engine development though.

Russian aircraft are designed to be disposable just like their pilots.

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>>33013983
>russian navy

>>33014230
>thus achieves an ISP thought impossible with kerolox engines

The US bested the ISP of the NK-33 long before, they just did not put much effort into kerolox, instead preferring liquid hydrogen

>>33014773
They bested the ISP, but not with the same fuel. Beating it with hydrogen is easy, not just because the fuel is more performant but also because a closed cycle fuel rich preburner isn't as demanding on materials. Can't do that with kerosene, it cokes up.

Anyways, that's somewhat beside the point.

>>33014230
>thought impossible

There's a difference between impossible and unfeasible.

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>>33002694
This triggers the fatnik.

>>33015066

Why would a failure of a cancelled plane trigger anyone but vatniks.

Please dont let little Vasily starve again. :^)

>>33002694
>Why is Russia always behind the curve when it comes to aviation?
because they are a land power
they invest in a2/ad.

>>33015168
>Vasily is going to get polonium filled beat juice if the vatnik doesn't step up his game

Please, think of poor little Vasily.. ;_;

>>33014878
the concept of oxidizer rich preburner wasn't further pursued because it was expected that it'd burn up. That's the only option you have to get such performance of of a kerolox engine. The US got closed cycle engines running, cutting out a wasteful gas generator, but only in fuel rich systems. They'd have used it for their kerolox systems had they been able to.

>>33015381

Its turly a conundurm.

He shills and gets paid, but then he has to use that potatoes to sell to the petrol man to he can keep his generator running so he can keep shilling.

A viscous cycle :c

>>33015066
This is what vatnik dementia looks like, forgetting you got btfo and then just repeat stuff like it means a thing. We even got a specific vatnik picture for this case, even already posted in this thread. >>33003483

Poor fatniks so easily triggered.

>>33015648

I mean, why would your master be triggered by anything?

We won the cold war. Your women sell their bodies too us. You are surrounded on all sides to us. You are conquered.

>>33015648
>i pissed myself therefor you are triggered
>i won
>it is real in my head

Poor little fatniks so easily upset when confronted with facts.

From former threads:
>READ THIS:
>This guy right here >>32731071 is the Armatard, idiot beyond repair, vatnik to the bones, annoyance for everyone, even the other vatniks doesnt side with him, after he started spreging out again. He will constantly declare himself winner of the discussion despite no one agreeing, he will continuously switch between insulting, he thinks it is banter, and demanding an logical arguement. Errors doesnt count for him, but every minor thing he nitpicks about changes of course everything, while he cant say something without being vague. He is constantly fucking up threads about russian stuff or tries to smear other nations, he cant stop screaming Fatnik all day long, there are people who think every second Fatnik posted on /k/ is actually made by him and given how hard he tries at everything they are probaly right especially it seems to align with his posting time. Also he always has to be right, no matter how non revelant the things he says are to the threads or discussions, if you said something he doesnt like, he will spend the next hours baiting you and trying to find something where you are wrong on. This guy simply needs psychological medical attention, but instead he chooses to shitpost on the internet, since he cant get attention otherwise. People already complained about him from other subboards.

And another:
>Armatard
>Who?
-Vatnik like you
-Talks like you
-Doesnt really answered questions like you
-Is overly vague like you
-Doesnt cared no one agreed with him or supported what he said like you
-Still said that his claims are accepted everywhere like you
-Wanted to tell us that the Armata is smaller than M1A2
-Spammed it months long, attacked everyone stating otherwise, but got BTFO in the end
-Tried to talk himself out of stuff like you
-Disapeared magically after that
-People acting like him magically appear after that
-Those people of course never where him
-Those people magically also used same phrases like him

>>33015925
And more:
>For god sake, cant you even once look at something without altering it, so it looks like you are right?
>>I didn't spam anything about Armata,
>So you just did what is mentoined in the last part of >>32095536 then.
>I recall asking about its size,
>You not only didnt say that you are a different person, but downright asked a question, that you could have answered yourself by simply googling it, but instead you demanded to get spoonfed, right after another vatnik played the proofster game and it was said that stupid questions aint getting answered anymore. And after getting called out for that behaviour a long time and not getting it (You dont seem to get that by even now!), some anon was kind enough to spoonfed you.

>Now do your little nitpicking dance of saying you said you were a different person, while ignoring you didnt do it at the start, when it mattered and just so you do your "but i am not that person, how dare you to think i am, when i continue for the guy before me and dont tell anyone, god are you stupid" dance.

>>getting loads of butthurt in response and one valid answer with the picture of its trackwheel with the actual dimensions on it.
You got called for the shithead you were and the shitposting you did.

>Do you even grasp what is happening here?

>A thread full of people disagreeing with you and all you can do is bend and squirm around the stuff you said so it could look for yourself like you are right? That constant misinterpreting so you can be "techincally" right, but not in that what was actually ment?

>A normal person would get that there is something wrong with him. You dont. Why is that so?

>You have no one supporting you. You have no one understanding how you can up with that logic.

>The attention you are getting here is not something you get through positive acting, it is downright objection and disbelieve. >Dont try to fool yourself you are just a rusemaster or other bullshit.

>Seriously get help.

>>33015967
Even more:
>A favorite of who I suspect to be the same vatnik was to claim that the S-400 at a range of 400km can detect and distinguish the MALD-J from real targets despite any and all jamming and even distinguish between MALD-J and guided munitions despite both being the same physical size.
>When being prompted for explanation of such outlandish claims the respone always ended up at
>>MALD-J
>>defeating anything other than rusty SA-2s
>being spammed as a response.
>"This fatnik is of broken" was also a reoccurring phrase.
>When actually trying to debate, the vatnik refused to meet any question asked and always shifted focus or danced around with vauge and unclear responses coupled with faulty logic and outright falsehoods.
>If its not the same guy we're dealing with here it must be someone who does a is a carbon copy of him and must be a guy on the same night shift at the web brigade as it is like 3am in russia now, the same time as the MALD-J vatnik went to work.

>>33016026
Anyone got the one with
>your miserable life is going in circles while being unwanted by others
or something? Cant find it and i remember it to be a good rant about him.

>>33015168
First of all, you need to know who ordered it and who paid for it. And who cancelled it, before speaking about failure.

>>33016026
>greentext
>not asspain'd
utterly rekt

I dont know what is more pathetic the general postings of the Armatard or how he desperatly tries baiting someone into just talking to him. Someone already said it before: he is probaly only able to find people to talk to on anonymous boards by now, since everywhere else he is just that guy no one wants to talk to.

>>33016204
You know what totaly would make people rage here? A picture of you putting a plunger in your ass. You would totaly show them!

>>33016147

Nah, i just need to know that its a failure to know its a failure.

>>33016257
lol fatnik is of broken

>>33016291

>"This fatnik is of broken" was also a reoccurring phrase.

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as always, only sensible discussion can be found on /k/

Poor, poor fatniks, so mad.

>>33002694

but anon that would hide engine fan blades and make radar cross section size of capitalist fan blades!

S-ducts do cause a lot of problems with airflow. If Russians did it their attrition rate would probably be unacceptable.

Same reason they have dual engine designs and heavier aircraft bodies for longer airframe life.

>>33010695
Poland isnt third world.

Even ignoring that Poland is one of the biggest and most active militarily in Europe.

>>33010579
So every aerial mission should have an AWACS? Even if it is for Patrol? I thought American Patrol wants WVR confirmation before firing since Airbus does not have IFF?

>>33020172
>So every aerial mission should have an AWACS?
Any time there's a significant possible A2A threat, yeah. That's kind of the whole fucking point.

>since Airbus does not have IFF?
Are you completely retarded or just a retarded troll?