Do you need to have ap ammo to defeat level IV ceramics or just

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Aim low.

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You need to shoot a huge fucking round. Even .338 lm wont reliably penetrate and they're rated for 30-06 ap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paf3VtmLZuc

>>32896485
.22-250 m8

>>32896881
wont do penetrate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S076VV3x_P8

I'd use a .30 caliber rifle.

Hand load. Make it screeching hot.

Use a custom .22 caliber projectile. You can probably buy .22 caliber steel wire or something. Cut and shape to a bullet and case harden.

Then you use a plastic sabot to make it work with the .30 cartridge and barrel.

Because you're using a .22 in a .30 you can use seriously hot powder charges, maybe even pistol powder.

You'd just have to male sure the target is close because the sabot will make it lose accuracy unless you filed fins into the bullet or something and treated it like a tank shell.

>>32896485
AP won't penetrate ceramics

>>32896485
a center line abdominal shot with any of the high energy rounds IV protect against will take someone right out.

descending aorta, iliac artery or liver are a bad fucking day and are statistically overwhelmingly lethal

>>32897364
AP what? Level IV plates are only rated to .30-06 M2 AP which is weak. Modern high speed AP rifle rounds are going to punch right through.

>>32896929
you are speaking out of your ass and have no experience actually practicing any of this

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>>32896485
The answer will always be nugget steel ball round my friend

>>32896798
FPBP.
If you absolutely must go through armor for some stupid reason use an antimateriel rifle.

>>32896929
Do not do this, you will blow your rifle up fucking around like this.

>>32896485
>Do you need to have ap ammo to defeat level IV ceramics or just a regular bullet with extremely high velocity?

You do if you want to kill me center mass friendo.

I has IV ceramics

>>32897426
>M2AP
>weak
>Modern high speed AP rifle rounds are going to punch right through.
bullshit

what rounds? M2AP is 165gr at over 2700 fps, unless you're talking AP .338 Lapua Magnum there's not a whole lot of comparable AP rounds that are better.

>>32897722
MnMo steel penetrator from a .30-06 AP is not going to be as good as a Tungsten penetrator. It's not as hard or as dense.

>>32897468

You're right, I do not, but in theory it will work.

And you don't have any experience doing the things I just said either.

>>32897487

Depends. That's why I said "maybe" pistol powder.

Steel is much lighter than lead so standard slow burning powder might not be sufficient to achieve 4000-5000 fps to defeat armor that tough.

And not only is steel lighter than lead, the projectile is a .223 projectile fired from a .30 rifle, so it's even less mass than the weapon is calibrated for. This means you can load ridiculously hot levels safely.

It also means you can defeat armor with minimal tooling.

You won't blow yourself up at all :3

You are going to need more than 150 grains at more than 2700 fps

and something like this but more speed and mass.....

P80 ammunition. This projectile consists of three parts: the hard steel core (which is also the tip), the lead core and the brass jacket which encapsulates the two cores (Fig. 1). The projectile mass is 9.75 g (42.9% brass, 38.6% steel and 18.5% lead).

M993 manufactured by Bofors maybe but I would not bet on it

m61 won't

7.62 M61 AP , 150.5gr bullet , 2750fps +-30fps

30-06 M2 AP , 166gr bullet , 2715fps +-30fps

Nope...

Here

use captions and autotranslate to english

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_347IucvRLg

three hits from black tip 7.62 at 820MS +10

All stopped. Deformation but that is point black range.

Interesting to see the test methodology they even load on the spot

>>32896892
What if you loaded .22-250 with FMJ of some sort, either 193 or 855? Most of the loads out there, including the one in the video are for varmint hunting, and are intended to come apart pretty energetically. Would a ball round going stupid fast hold together better and get through?

>>32896875
What if the bullets were solid copper?

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>>32898397
i have two words for you to google
eargensplitten loudenboomer

>>32898428
>What if the bullets were solid copper
The lead in blacktip apparently actually helps initial penetration against e.g aluminum even the jacket contributes

A shaped charge..yeah but...

copper is way softer than steel in AP perpetrators

>>32898443
awesome lunacy

>>32896485
gotta be AP man

velocity dont matter, you could shoot a regular bullet at the speed of light and it wouldn't penetrate

just how physics works

>>32896485
>level IV
>asking if he needs AP to pierce it
>not realizing its designed to absorb .30-06 AP

you're gonna need a bigger boat

>>32898558

A .177 bb going .10C would probably turn the atmosphere into plasma as it went along and vaporize the poor guy hit by it.

>>32898626
That would have 109,544,418,128 ft*lbf of energy assuming a 5.1 grain bb.

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>>32898558

wrong. very wrong.

velocity is king when it comes to penetrating armor, with sectional density and hardness being secondary factors. .220 swift will blow right through level 4 plates at close range, owing to its huge kinetic energy.

this is why the SLAP round uses a saboted projectile; you get a lot higher velocity with the subcaliber round, without reducing your barrel life too much.

>>32898659

So the BB would basically turn into a nuclear laser beam as it fuses with the atmosphere at an atomic level, surrounded with plasma?

Amirite

>>32898689
it wouldn't survive the initial attempt to put it at that speed. It would just be a massive explosion of super heated atmosphere at the starting point probably igniting the planets atmosphere along with it

>>32898689
Yeah you right

>>32896798
this guy doesnt know whats he's talking about

>>32898705

If you fired it from a barrel with a thin sacrificial cap on the end that's just thick enough to keep a near perfect vacuum....

What about then?

In space something going .10C is feasible because of the vacuum.

>>32898734
how long would that vacuum chamber have to be to put it at that speed? Think about it. The amount of energy you would have to apply and absorb on the opposite end to do it within a feasible amount of time/distance would be astronomical.

>>32898760
Nuclear propulsion. Duh

>>32898715
>this guy doesnt know whats he's talking about
shush don't tell him

>>32898775
nuclear propulsion is still small scale in terms of getting something to the speed of light

there is a way but I like not dead burger friendos

so I'm staying stum

>>32898795
We just use Kraut space magic. They developed the technology when creating the G11, but deemed it too dangerous for any one man to wield.

>>32898760

Normal pistol ammo hits with hundreds of pounds of force.

Strangely it doesn't produce hundreds of pounds of recoil.

So the recoil of our Death Star beam will actually be manageable.

Think about it.

There's even a shoulder fired mortar called the "High Impulse Weapons System". Its basically like an 80mm mortar with recoil mitigation.

>>32896798
Aiming at people's nuts all the time is pretty gay desu senpai

What kinds of rounds could two layers of Level IV / ESAPI plate stop? Not a double thickness plate; just two of them stacked on top of each other.

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>>32898816
>shoulder fired 80mm mortar

>>32898682
>velocity is king when it comes to penetrating armor
Not when armor is ceramic.

>>32898395
This doesn't really mean much because we don't know about the design of the projectile.

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>people on /k/ used to complain about fuddlore and bullshit that's been repeated on forums so many times it's been taken as truth, and posters who repeated that shit were called out regularly and told to do actual research
>now days we have threads like this where most of the posters are repeating straight bullshit
What went wrong?

>>32896485
First of all, look up the fucking specs for NIJ IV plates. They fucking say that they're designed to stop .30-06 M2 AP. They will also often give you a V50 for the plate for the ammunition tested, which is the velocity at which the plate will stop that ammunition 50% of the time. Your choices are either taking existing AP bullets like the M2 AP and loading them into larger cartridges like .300 Win Mag or .300 RUM to get the velocity above the V50 of most plates, using AP ammunition with core made out of harder material in a similar size cartridge such as the tungsten carbide core 7.62x51mm M993 AP ammunition (which can penetrate NIJ IV/ESAPI plates and is why there is a standard for XSAPI plates to stop it), or opting to try loading higher velocity sabot ammunition using a bullet made entirely out of steel or tungsten carbide (the later is not easy to machine) in similar size or smaller calibers (a good example of this is the 7.62x51mm M948 SLAP). Really, trying to penetrate an NIJ IV rifle plate currently is going to either be extremely expensive to the point of unfordable (M993 AP costs the US government $2.61 per round and is generally purchasable by collectors in less than 20 round quantities) or generate significantly more recoil than would be practical for most roles, not to mention you're going to end up with rather rather shit wound ballistics after penetrating (M993 and M2 AP have penetrators that are about the size of an M855 or M193 but are solid and won't fragment). You'd be better off aiming around the plates at this time.

>>32896929
Pic related, try not to hurt yourself.

>>32896798

Small vests? I guess it's true about the Marines making due with what they got.

>>32899527

There's a point where the kinetic energy will just cave in your chest and crush your heart, snap your neck, etc.

It doesn't have to penetrate to kill you.

M1 drivers have ran over mines so big they turned to pulp and had to be hosed out. The armor wasn't damaged but they were.

>>32902229
Yeah, isn't that lower plate supposed to cover the crown jewels?

>>32902360
>There's a point where the kinetic energy will just cave in your chest and crush your heart, snap your neck, etc.
Fortunately for infantry, any ammunition with enough energy to do that despite the plate stopping it not excessively deforming would also not be able to be both practical to use in a magazine fed firearm and safely fired from the shoulder.

>M1 drivers have ran over mines so big they turned to pulp and had to be hosed out.
>things that didn't happen
Worst that happened was head injuries. Anything with enough energy to do what you claim would also completely wreck the tank.

>>32898682
You need hardness. Otherwise we'd use 120mm APFSDS rounds made from marshmallow.

>>32902422

>anything able to do that would wreck the tank

Dude steel is much stronger than flesh and almost 99% of the time when a tank is kill the armor is virtually undamaged.

>not practical for a man fired magazine fed sidearm

4u

>>32902452

>tank fires marshmallows

Would there be a psychological warfare benefit to firing food at enemies?

>rifles fire skittles and M&Ms
>under barrel 40mm launches soft drink cans
>tactical airburst sandwiches
>step on mine, covered in French fries

>>32902151
>using AP ammunition with core made out of harder material in a similar size cartridge such as the tungsten carbide core 7.62x51mm M993 AP ammunition
The cartridge size doesn't really matter, just the hardness and sectional density of the penetrator and the velocity. M995 should also go through a Level IV plate, maybe even better than M993 due to the higher velocity my 200 or 300 ft/s.

>>32902880
Hearts and minds will be won.

>>32902891
>M995 should also go through a Level IV plate, maybe even better than M993 due to the higher velocity my 200 or 300 ft/s.
That's not how shit works. If you look up what M995 is rated to penetrate vs .30-06 M2 AP it's only rated to penetrate about 1 mm further into similar hardness steel. There's no reason to believe that M995 will reliably penetrate NIJ IV/ESAPI plates outside of in your face room clearing situations, if it even does manage to penetrate those plates at least 50% of the time at any distance. Furthermore, the core in M995 is ~.16" in diameter, ~.55" long, and weighs about 33 grains (source is some forum post where someone cut a bullet open and weighed/measured the core that I don't feel like finding right now). That's a bit less frontal area traveling sideways at full tumble than a 9mm FMJ bullet and you're going to lose a significant amount of energy in penetrating the plate, meaning you're likely going to need to put several rounds into a target to stop them reliably.

>>32902902

>covered in welts
>pieces of skittle shell embedded in your skin, dissolving and leaving you looking like a shitty tie-dyed shirt
>concussed from being beaned with a coke can so hard it exploded leaving you all sticky and confused
>reach into your ammo pouch and load your gun with French fries

I think it would leave someone in a mental state where food would trigger them and they'd starve themselves to death

>>32896485
Just buy a Serbu .50 cal

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>>32898715
Femoral artery ? Completely viable target

>>32904160
>If you look up what M995 is rated to penetrate
If you have the information for that I'd love to see it. I've never seen any sources talking about its performance.
>There's no reason to believe that M995 will reliably penetrate NIJ IV/ESAPI plates outside of in your face room clearing situations
I have the reason to believe it going faster, being harder, and being more denser improves the performance. I never did mention the terminal performance after penetrating a plate, but it can't be that awful or they wouldn't have bothered creating it.

>>32907385
>If you have the information for that I'd love to see it. I've never seen any sources talking about its performance.
Nammo has it on their site. They list the M995 AP as being able to penetrate 12 mm of 300 HB steel at 100 meters.
https://www.nammo.com/globalassets/pdfs/product-sheets/ammunition/small-arms-ammunition-2009.pdf

>>32907572
Thanks for the information, I've been trying to find it forever. I can't seem to find anything for the .30-06 M2 AP, though, other than some independent tests on different materials at different distances than this 300BHN RHA @ 100m Nammo used.

>>32902151
Its really not that difficult or expensive if you really think about it.

All you need is a OD grinder and a green wheel that is made for grinding carbide.

As a machinist I quite often would have to grind clearances into carbide tools or resharpen carbide tooling. A bullet is not a very complex shape at all, any idiot could do it.

Carbide or tungsten bar stock is readily available any where online, you can even buy it on ebay.

If you are shooting the round in a sabot that makes production even easier, if they are a couple tenths big on the OD, the bullet will still push the same into the sabot.

I'am sure you could do it cheaper than shooting .500 SW or .50 bmg, a lot of people shoot those rounds every day.

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>yfw the answer was in front of your faces all along

>double tapping if a thing

>>32907668
I decided to look some since I don't have any of the old links that I used to and found a test of M2 AP bullets at various velocities against a .5" (12.7mm) MIL-A-12560 class 1 steel plate (would be 363-400 Brinell) at 20 yards. In the test the M2 AP manage to penetrate the plate when traveling at 2601 FPS. Given that NIJ IV plates are required to stop the same M2 AP bullet when traveling at 2880 FPS and that this test was against a harder steel plate than the M995 test, I think it's safe to say M995 at least won't be penetrating an NIJ IV or ESAPI plate at 100 meters and you're going to want to be a bit closer. If only one of those Youtube gun celebrities could test the M995 against an NIJ IV plate at closer ranges.

The video in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkVMSj6scxE

NIJ specs if you want them:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

MIL-A-12560 steel specs in case you want those as well since I still have them up:
http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-DTL/download.php?spec=MIL-DTL-12560J.025582.pdf

>>32908280
NIJ III and NIJ IV plates are both rated to stop 6 rounds of 7.62x51mm M80 ball with a 2" spacing between impacts (link to NIJ specs above if you want to see for yourself). You'd be better off just using better AP ammunition at that point. Also ESAPI plates are rated to stop 2 rounds of .30-06 M2 AP with a 6 inch spacing.

ESAPI specs:
http://ciehub.info/spec/PD/CO-PD-04-19D.pdf

>>32908452
That's interesting. Do you think M995 could penetrate NIJ IV at near MV? I believe it has a chance.

>>32908552
Possibly, lighter 5.56 bullets tend to lose a few hundred FPS by the time they get to 100 meters. I also just found a spec sheet for another tungsten carbide core 5.56x45mm round, the DM31 made by MEN. It fires a 62 grain bullet at 3034 FPS vs the 52 grain at 3324 FPS of the M995 and the spec sheet claims that it can penetrate an NIJ IV plate at 100 meters. It's also listed as being able to penetrate 12 mm of steel plate but the hardness isn't specified.

Maybe there's something else going on with how ceramic plates work and the hardness of the bullet core, similar to how NIJ III AR500 plates will fail to M193 but will stop M855 while NIJ III UHMWPE plates will stop M193 but will fail to stop M855.

Spec sheet in question:
http://www.men-defencetec.de/uploads/tx_men/MEN_Datenblatt_Police_ENG_P230330_01.pdf

>>32896485
Lead free .270 will punch IV ceramics and can be had at walmart

>>32898715
wait why is leg shooting a bad idea?

>>32902880
>soft drink can is stopped before it reaches arming distance
>doesn't spray everywhere when you open it

>>32902856
>virtually undamaged
Yeah... like in it's all still there.. just not in the same shape or anything

>>32896929
Why do you hate other /k/omandos so much?

>>32897722
The M995 and M993 greatly out perform the M2.

>>32904222
/k/'s favorite kind of PTSD

>walks past mcdonalds
>smell of fries triggers flashbacks
DEAR GOD, THEY JUST KEEP COMING! WE'RE BEING OVERRUN! WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF KETCHUP PACKETS, DEPLOYING SELF-FILL KETCHUP CUPS!!! GOD HELP US

>I loved Dr. Pepper
>before the war

>go to movies
>walks by concession stand
>catch glimpse of skittles
>have to look away
>wife asks "you okay babe?"
>"yeah" "I'm alright"
>I'm not alright
>if she only saw what I saw


>it ain't me plays in the distance

>>32908914
Its not, aim for the belt buckle.

>>32898558
You are beyond wrong.