>be army >spend 5 billion dollars and 10 years finding

>>32834740
>still wearing military boots developed from Roman hobnailed sandals 2200 years ago
>still eating foods domesticated in the Neolithic age
>still using an oxygen metabolism that hasn't changed much for the last 2-3 billion years

>>32834740
Bullets won't change until caseless ammo or lasers become reliable and powerful enough.

>he thinks wars are still fought with pistols
>doesn't realize sidearms are just accessories to a uniform like a watch or lapel pin

Hoo boy.

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>>32834740
>be army
>spend 5 billion dollars and 10 years finding the ultimate space age light tactical truck
>cool looks, fully armored, plenty of weapon options

And it sits on wheels developed thousands of years ago.

WHAT THE FUCK!

>>32834756
>And it sits on wheels developed thousands of years ago.

I highly doubt they had those tires back then. in fact tires are getting better all the time.

Unlike the 9mm Luger which apparently was perfect 120 years ago and hasn't needed an update since.

>>32834750
>>doesn't realize sidearms are just accessories to a uniform like a watch or lapel pin
Why not just stick with 1911s then ?

>>32834764
9mm of today is not the same as 120 years ago.

>b...but the dimensions are roughly similar!

Yeah, so is the wheel.

Pistol cartridges haven't had recent groundbreaking changes the way rifles cartridges did. Pistols rounds turbulent adoption and replacement from the 1890s to about the 1930s with lots of similar rounds and variations tried. This was during the rise of semi auto pistols, moving away from revolvers. Intermediate cartridges had that turbulent period from the 40s to 70s as we found out how useful capacity and volume of fire is.

You'll have to wait for a fundamental change in the way we think about pistols. And no "PDW" cartridges aren't a fundamental change, they're just necked pistol rounds, not a significant enough reason to switch pistol rounds

>>32834765
Women and weak men, so, women.

>>32834802
>weak men
Is the 1911 somehow now giving out tons of recoil? Is your 1911 chambered in 30-06 or something?

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>navy
>have boats
>that have been floating on water that's been here since the beginning of time

just what the fuck were they thinking
.

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>>32834765
exactly

>>32834807
500 S&W actually. No, you would not believe the amount of softbodies in the military now. Can't pass PT? No worries, just say you're going to do better next time and you get a pass.

>>32834740

9mm Luger is an efficient cartridge and does what it's designed to: shoot holes in people out to ~50 yards.

>>32834823
Should they fire trained and experienced people based on PT tests that may not even apply to their line of work in favor of new people that have to be trained?

>>32834872
If you physically can't do the lowest acceptable number of exercises which would have a girls High School P.E. class snickering then what the fuck are you doing in the military in the first place?

>>32834823

What job do you have? I've never had that experience, nor heard of it happening.

>>32834740
Pistols aren't used often enough to warrant replacing its ammo, especially when every single ally is using 9mm anyway.

Why not 10mm? Even women can shoot 10mm when they are in battle mode. Screw NATO. Why issue a pistol to wound instead of a pistol to kill.

>>32834942
>Why issue a pistol to wound instead of a pistol to kill.
Because when you shoot a suicide bomber and wound them, two more suicide bombers have to arrive to blow up with the wounded one to make sure he gets to Paradise.

>>32834740
you did hear they're going to be using jhp's in all likelihood for 9mm now, right?

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>>32834961

I worked at a gunship near a redeployment camp around 2005. Soldiers would come in everyday looking for .40s&w, 10mm's and .357 usgs. None of them had confidence in 9mm for their upcoming deployment. If they could have gotten a $200 trade in on their m9, we would have been rolling in them.

I want a pistol that fires these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT_caseless_ammunition

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>>32834813
HOVERCARRIERS WHEN!

>>32835204
Did they model this off of a graphics card?

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>>32835204
>flying through the sky
>which we have had
>since the beginning of time
anon do u even fucking try

>>32834740
>Wearing pants that barbaric germans developed thousands of years ago

WHAT THE FUCK

It still gets the job done with complete efficiency, unlike the fuddyfive.

>>32834740
>>32834765
I know you're either a retarded 45 fanboy or just baitin' but the P320 can be converted to 45. There's just no reason to waste battle rattle on 230gr shit when 115gr does exactly the same thing.
>>32835082
>perception equals reality

>>32834881
>Implying the current PT test is anything but a budget cut maneuver based on bad science

Only reason militaries have pistols is so that people kan take a shit without bringing their rifle. Lazy fucks. Pistols in the military are literally for shitters.
Only legitimate uses are excecutions, and for mp and guards

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>>32834747
fpbp

>>32835082
>None of them had confidence in 9mm for their upcoming deployment.
Shit that didn't happen. Personal weapons in the sandbox are banned as fuck.

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>>32835236
>existing
>in a reality
>that has been around for aeons

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>>32835295
everyone in this thread kill yourself so we can fight the niggercommunists in the next life

>>32834747
FPBP

>>32835266
It happened daily. They had to get papers signed by the sheriff since they were from out of state. Sheriff would come by every day or two to sign off on them. If they didn't make it to the sandbox, some dick QM got a lot of nice pistols.

>>32835380
>Here's your bullshit, with a side of I'm full of shit

They were buying for themselves for personal use, dumbass.

>>32835401
They were a fucking week away from being deployed. You don't spend $800 on gun and ammo to play with for a week.

>>32835427
General Order 1, section 3a.

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>this thread

I don't know what else OP expected with a post like that

>>32835474
Not gonna look that up. I was there. Camp Shelby, MS. Big Buck Sports. Everybody from combat engineers to reconsider. I guess they figured all's fair in love and war or COs just didn't give a shit.

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>>32835520
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/documents/general-order-no-1-prohibited-activities-for-soldiers
Literally the first fucking thing banned from CENTCOM AOR is personally owned weapons and ammo.

>>32835474
Same order says you can't sniff your CLP.

>>32835562
And? Who am I supposed to believe, some dickhead on 4chan who claims he works retail?

>>32834807
>Is the 1911 somehow now giving out tons of recoil?

A 1911 weight way much than a plastic pistol, so it's harder to shoot one-handed if you're a bitch

>>32835548
If personally owned weapons includes knives, pretty much half the grunts were out of compliance.

>>32835548
>USCENTCOM AOR
>stateside
Nigger, do you even geography?

>>32835600
>Firearms
>Ammunition
>Explosives
Do try to read the attached material.

>>32835632
Anon was fucking claiming he was selling non-9mm pistols left and right to troops deploying to the sandbox. AKA he;s full of shit.

>>32834747
*tips fedora*

The Earth is 6000 years old IT SAYS SO IN THE BIBLE.

>>32834740
you're right it should've been chambered in 300 memeout

>>32834740
You do know that the Army could just convert calibers on that easily if they did decide to move away from 9mm, right?

>>32835640
So crossbowes are ok. Nobody ever asked to see the crossbowes. Is it not possible that brigade level commanders knew the m9 had proven ineffective and let Shit slide. As for personal ammo no being allowed 100s of soldiers bought shit tons of high grain hydrophobic and Corbin for their m9s.

>>32835710
>hydrophobic

I assume you mean hydra-shock?

Because hydrophobic means something that repels water.

>>32834740
READ THE STICKY

>>32835736
Yeah. Spell check off now. You can find plenty of images of U.S. soldiers with non-M9 sidearms in iraq and afganistan.

>>32835710
And my Uncle works for Nintendo.

>>32835548
I dunno, but my father-in-law was a SF Captian in Desert Sheid/Storm and carried a Ruger Super Blackhawk in theatre. He qualified on it when the Army still issued 1911s. All he had to do was make 6 perfect shots to get a score that was acceptable for 8 shots with a 1911. He never used it, but he did pull it at a Saudi checkpoint and made some dude with an mp 5 pointed at him shit his pants.

>>32835861
He's probably strictly prohibited from using aftermarket controllers. Don't make fun of wiitards.

>>32835918
GO-1 was implemented in OIF/OEF.

Also, SF is where the rules can be played kinda grey.

>>32834756
""""""""""light"""""""""

>>32834747

Actually all 3 of those are wrong.

>>32835957
Yeah. I think the Saudi dude was a prince or something. Capt.F-I-L probably ruined it for everybody else.

>>32836001
The thing is, it makes sense. With POFs you've got non-commonality of ammunition, theft, Hague Convention issues, and especially trouble with moving stuff through customs and personal item return that you don't with Issue-only standards.

>>32834764
new projectile ogive, more energetic powder, higher pressure, improved primer chemistry (non-corrosive, non-toxic), flash suppressed powder, heavier projectile

sure, no radical changes, but there are incremental improvements

>>32836032
Grandad was a BAR gunner in North Africa in wwII. He carried a Colt double action in .45LC. Dudes who are issued a rifle should get to choose the sidearm they want.

>>32835649
10000.

all of human history.

>>32834747

FPBP

>>32834920
>hipower best power

>>32836090
but where does ammo for your sidearm come from?

the quartermaster controls ammo requisitions, and when everyone has a 9mm, ordering ammo is easy.

I might want to carry my 45, but without ammo, it wont do me much good

I would carry a G20 into combat if I thought I had any chance of getting away with it. Besides ammo compatibility, why would you not?

>>32836217
Well, to be fair, .45 is still in the supply system, we had it in our deployed range, but we were also in an SF group. It's just basically nonexistant for Big Army.

>>32836217
Can you not stash 100ends somewhere? Yes, if you lose your ammo you get issued m9 or the above monstrosity. Most guys will never fire their sidearm in a combat situation. But when used for urban entry, 9mm is shit.

>>32836288
>Most guys will never fire their sidearm in a combat situation.
So why let a bunch of chucklefucks make everything difficult?

> But when used for urban entry, 9mm is shit.
[citation needed]

How exactly is the P320 a bad choice then?

>>32834765
There was not a single grunt who wanted to switch from 1911 to m9. Same deal with switch from m14 to m16. Who wants a toy when the gear you've got is battle proven and feels so "Right".

>>32836354
Not necessarily a bad choice. I can just think of lots of better choices.

But when used for urban entry, 9mm is shit.
[citation needed]

No citation available. The guys with 9s on point are all dead.

>>32836377
>Implying anecdotal opinion and not cold hard facts should determine combat weapon selection
Nobody really wanted to lug the fucking M14, and the wood and steel were shit in the jungle.

>>32836395
OK, well, the MHS P320 offers:
Easily replaced lower frame at about the same price as a magazine (FCG is removed by pulling out the takedown lever pin without tools) allowing better fit to users.
Slides have pre-cut dovetails for a reflex sight.
Striker means a consistent trigger pull every time.
Full-size model's mags hold 21 rounds.

>>32836422
Nice try.

>>32836354
away. And damn that’s frustrating.

In just about every country I have been in, our host nation counterparts — army and police — used the 9X19 NATO round. Because so much of what I did was house-to-house police searches, I’ve seen a lot of pistol shootings, much more than US police would ever see, and much more than experienced by most medics deploying solely with US personnel. And yet, I have zero, not one single experience, where a single gunshot wound from a 9X19 NATO round killed someone prior to them being able to return fire or flee. This includes people shot in the chest, back, back of the head (one hit behind the left ear) the neck and the face. None.

Above is part of an account from a combat medic who treated hundreds of gunshot wounds.

>>32836377
>grunts
>sidearms

>>32836480
Gooks did pretty good with their wood and steel. That wood and steel,full of saltwater and sand, kept firing til the barrels melted off on Iwo Jima.

>>32836586
In Vietnam they were also using an intermediate cartridge in a rifle 3 pounds lighter.

>>32836568
I'm the only male in my family not to serve since before the civil war. Grew up on base. Two types of soldiers: Grunts and poges (people other than grunts).

>>32836608
Fiberglass stocks were helpful in the jungle. .308 is only 200fps slower than .30/06

>>32836688
You still can't carry as much ammo, and no infantryman was trying to make 1000 yard shots. So why exactly was a light rifle that you could carry 2-3x as many rounds in the same weight and space bad?

>>32834750
>he thinks that there is such a thing as a secondary weapon
>he doesn't see handguns as a viable weapon
If it's in your hand, it's a primary weapon. Handguns are perfectly viable weapons, provided you actually understand how to use them. In the event that your rifle experiences a stoppage and you don't have time to resolve it you should be just as effective with your handgun as you are with your rifle when the target is within or at 100 yards.

>>32836727
Because they were fucked up as in unreliable in several aspects. If you shoot some really slaggy russian or Chinese ammo out of your ar, you'll experience the first: Can't handle dirty powders.

>>32836777
Yes. You tend to clean your rifle alot more often when you have a pistol and vice versa.

>>32836515
Link the source then you retarded faggot

>>32836795
None of which was the fault of the design, but of the Army deciding to make changes they shouldn't have to try to be cheap.

>>32836830
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj-7JP1he3RAhWriVQKHcMJDzUQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetruthaboutguns.com%2F2014%2F10%2Fdaniel-zimmerman%2Fmedics-advice-shoot-heaviest-rifle-round-shoot-can-hit-shoot%2F&usg=AFQjCNE0oKhjXEVFP9qpq96e10D6Pjj6hQ&sig2=SecRxe5AYxyoPbks1wu6xA

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>>32836648
Cool story. I'm currently at 14 years TIS so I'm pretty sure I have a decent idea of how things work.

>>32836874
>Reminder that when clearing you're still using your rifle most of the time
Bullets aren't magic kill spells, and no matter what caliber you have that's still shoulder-fireable, someone's going to be able to get up and walk away from it if you don't put it in the heart or CNS. And since JHPs are super illegal for warfare, you're not going to see the same result in combat as in police shootings.

>>32836849
But that shouldn't matter. AKs, m14s and even mini-14s chew up nasty ammo no prob.

>>32836648
>the point
TBC

>>32836933
>reliability
>mini 14
Please.

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>>32836874
>unverified source
>says rifle rounds are inadequate
So 5.56 isn't enough, but somehow using a different handgun caliber would make a difference over 9mm? Get the fuck out you fucking moron.

>>32836880
Thank you for your Service.

>>32836688
Yeah. You're not a grunt's grunt.

>>32835994
Actually, you're a newfag

>>32835649
Actually the bible proves the various eras of evolution right in Genesis. But you'd know this if you weren't such a low-tier Christian.

>>32836648
I was the male in my family generation aside from my brother (DQ due to knees fucked in 10th grade football). I served because I'm not a massive quitter faggot :^) Also I have family that served all the way back to the Hundred Years War, all branches in three countries.

Profligates like you belong on a cross

>>32836648
Your head

>>32834740
>be human
>spend thousands of dollars on health
>cool looks, in good shape

But they still use ferric blood developed 2,000,000,000 years ago.

WHAT THE FUCK

>>32836954
Not saying it's battle worthy, but at the range I can pass mine around and go through 2000rnds of Wolf shit in a day without a malfunction. I think the barrel has warped a bit to the right since it was new though (like 3 moa).

>>32836964
Well then. Tell me why 9mm para is still relevant in the U.S. Army besides it being ubiquitous and almost nobody uses anything bigger.

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>>32837155
Because there's no fucking reason to use a larger handgun cartridge you literal retard. It has enough penetration and you can fit a bunch of rounds in a mag. Why don't you explain how whatever round you're arguing for would be any better, so that everyone can laugh at you because the difference between mainstream handgun rounds lethality are totally negligible.

>>32837045
Profligates like you belong on a cross

I had to look that up. It can mean alot of different things. My original point was "9mm is not the best pistol round for the US Army".

>>32837044
>proves
You keep using that word, but it doesnt mean what you think it means

>>32837258
What would the cons be of switching to 10mm?

>>32836648
Im so fucking triggered rn

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>>32834740
>And it fires a 9mm Luger developed 120 years ago.
>The earliest surviving chemical formula of gunpowder dates to 1044
>Still using 973 year old technology
WHAT THE FUCK

>>32837338
Why?

>>32837327
What would be the pros of switching to 10mm? A switch would be costly and would need to be justified

>>32837327

It would make more sense to switch to .40 S&W, since that was designed to replace 10mm in real-world use.

10mm cons:
-Higher recoil/blast than needed with full house loads
-Unnecessary size/weight with lower power loads
-Cartridge length requires enlarging most existing pistol frames
-Lower capacity
-Few companies have 10mm models or even tooling

>>32837327
Recoil. Capacity. Size. Things that matter in the real world, to put it short.

>>32837438
People are switching from .40 S&W to 9mm, if you hadn't noticed.

>>32837418
>>32837438

Also, a caliber change isn't just "hey let's get some 10mm guns in here." You need to think of the whole supply chain. The govt has billions of rounds of 9mm available. They're currently using 9mm pistols and will continue to use M9s for years with reserve/NG/whatever units. They have 9mm subguns in service with SF/police. All the US's allies use 9mm for the exact same things.

The Army's only changed pistol calibers once in 100 years and rifle calibers twice.

>>32837390
>Modern gunpowder
>In any way chemically related to black powder

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>>32835597
>weight making a pistol harder to control
>in a nice slow pusher like .45 acp
>a polymer doublestack in 9mm being easier to handle then a 1911 for the small, weak and generally womanly
Is it backwards day already?

>>32834740
>>be sun
>spend 4.5 billion years forming solar system
>cool planets, asteroid belt, comets

And it still revolves around a gigantic black hole in a galaxy created 13 billion years ago.

WHAT THE FUCK

Pros: It blows bigass holes in the enemy. You will have recovered from the recoil of your first shot as you aquire your second target because you did not have to shoot the first guy twice.

>>32837510
>rifle rounds are inadequate for an immediate stop, but my meme handgun round will surely work!
I like 10mm just fine as a hiking gun, but for people it's irrelevant, especially for a military

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>>32837510
b-b-but muh double tap!!!

>>32837472
We will buy their surplus. They can make the autos semi. And who doesn't need a few more 1000 rounds of 9mm. But we would probably give it away to someone we'll be fighting in 10 years.

>>32835710
I like how people who are full of shit are always so cock sure that something they don't like is like literally the literally worst thing like ever on the planet

>>32835797
Probably because the M9 along with the G19, SIG P226/8, and plenty of 1911 variants are still in wide use within the US military. Not to mention SF/SO get to toy with new shit a long time before it's even announced to be in consideration.

>>32834747
fpbp

>>32834740
The real reason was that it was fucking cheap. As in it's cheaper to replace all the current pistols than keep repairing exsisting ones.

>Always remember that your weapon was supplied by the lowest bidder.

Okay. I give up. All I can say for certain is that I, as a regular shooter of handguns over the last thirty years, would choose a glock model 20 over OP's Sig if I was had to be in a war zone and I had the choice.

>>32837327
>What would the cons be of switching to 10mm?

Well...

>The tens/hundreds of billions of rounds of 9mm NATO ammunition in storage go to waste.

>The US would be using a different round than the majority of the other countries in NATO, which complicates logistics.

>Existing ammunition plants would need to be overhauled, costing a minimum of tens of millions of dollars.

>You would need to order new handguns, which would likely cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

>You would need to retrain your personnel on the new handguns, which would cost tens of millions of dollars.

>You would need to have a more frequent parts replacement schedule due to 10mm guns having a shorter service life.

>Most people issued 10mm pistols will not shoot them as well as a 9mm.

What do you get in exchange for all of these downsides? You get a weapons system that has no commonality with allies, is more expensive to operate and maintain, and yet still sucks for killing people due to being a handgun cartridge fired out of a handgun.

>>32837104
You're not selling it well.

>>32835204
That's a good game.

>>32835212
No, alien tech.

The normal desert crawlers look more "human designed"

>>32837589
I own 4 9mm's. The only pistol I own that is more accurate than my 92fs at 50m is a 7.5" SA .44mag.

>>32837589
>Probably because the M9 along with the G19, SIG P226/8, and plenty of 1911 variants are still in wide use within the US military. Not to mention SF/SO get to toy with new shit a long time before it's even announced to be in consideration.
I was in an SF support detachment, and we had Mk 23s, a couple 1911s, and one guy managed to finagle an M11 (P228). We got the Mk 23s because one of the Battalions had them and wanted to trade for our company's M9s.

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>>32837730
Nobody gives a fuck because you're retarded, fag

>>32837748
Just a little wandering zero. Still functions better than new.

>>32836377
Grunts are fucking stupid, and most likely have an average IQ of 90.

What grunts say is of little concern to anyone.

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>>32834740
IKR? I tried to talk the DOD into joining the modern age and going with a true modern round like 5.7, .40, or .357sig- they just laughed at me and called me a faggot

>>32837853
And also. 6.5 Grendel should be the standard service round.

>>32837909
Is that the poblem?

>>32837917
>P320 is just a $407 kit from being .40 or .357 Sig

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>>32834823
>>32834872

I dont understand this.

Even if they go soft on things is the military, there are things they should stay firm on.

Personally I think we should be shooting 50 caliber handguns with 8 round magazines. They had a point with it in the Halo video game.

Maybe not exploding munitions, maybe not full power .50AEs, but we should be lobbing 250 grain armor piercing monsters that put a man on his ass.

> handgun is a backup weapon
> it better back your ass out of trouble
> so you can take the other dude's rifle because he got too close

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>>32839390

I demand a 300 grain armor piercing pistol projectile traveling at least 1100fps for our fighting men (*and women).

With a subsonic 350 grain variant for suppressor work.

>>32837746
>The tens/hundreds of billions of rounds of 9mm NATO ammunition in storage go to waste.
gradual replacement.
>The US would be using a different round than the majority of the other countries in NATO, which complicates logistics.
who cares? USA! USA!
>Existing ammunition plants would need to be overhauled, costing a minimum of tens of millions of dollars.
don't be silly. replace a few dies, no biggy.
>You would need to order new handguns, which would likely cost hundreds of millions of dollars.
now's the time.
>You would need to retrain your personnel on the new handguns, which would cost tens of millions of dollars.
no, bullshit. they have to train anyway and no super special costly weekend workshop is needed to shoot a different cartridge.
>You would need to have a more frequent parts replacement schedule due to 10mm guns having a shorter service life.
nope.
>Most people issued 10mm pistols will not shoot them as well as a 9mm.
fuck them. survival of the fittest.

>>32839390
>Halo had a point
Kys

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>>32840275
prove me wrong

also my proposition for the new handgun round we should be using (and will be spamming from now on since its perfect)

12.7 x 28mm

a redesigned FN Five Seven chassis would be able to accomodate this and result in an 8 round magazine capacity

It works, it kills people with low recoil and low cost

What else do you need

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>>32836827
>tfw you've been here too long and can't tell if someone is legitimately agreeing with you or just being sarcastic or ironically shitposting

>>32840340
Congratz, you pretty much redesigned .50 GI.

Which is an obscure round you've probably never heard of because it sucked.

>>32834747
Some things are just classics.

>>32840259
>hey, let's switch to 10mm for literally no benefit because it makes me feel good.

>>32841181
50 GI, because let's make 45 GAP incompatible with most suppressors on the market