It's universally acknowledged among shooters that a lig

>>32744558
Your defensive handgun is not the same as your riced up competition gun.

>>32744574
You're right. Accuracy is even MORE important in a gunfight, so a defensive handgun should have an even lighter trigger.

>>32744558
Lawyers and Litigation.

>>32744558
its a lawyer thing
a heavy trigger is harder to "accidentally" go off in the hands of Mr. Fudd and Ms. Inexperienced.

Probably insurance and liability reasons.

>>32744596
Haha no.
See. The United States of America Justice System

>>32744603
>>32744607
>>32744617
There's no law on the books that requires manufacturers to pull shitty triggers in guns, nor has any court ever ruled that it was a requirement, so the arms makers really have no excuse. Moreover, the fact that SOME arms makers DO, in fact, make guns with good triggers proves that it is a feasible thing to do for ALL arms makers.

>>32744657
Just because it has a heavy pull doesn't mean it's a shit trigger.

>>32744654
Name one instance where a court ruled that a handgun was not allowed to have a good trigger. Name one.

>>32744677
Again, it is universally acknowledged among shooters that a lighter trigger will allow for greater practical accuracy. That is why serious target shooters almost always have very light triggers.

Are you talking about rifles or pistols?

My built Bulgarian Ak had a shit trigger, so I swapped it for a tapco G2. Works perfect now. I didn't expect a second world combloc trigger to be good.

As for pistols, because most pistols now are manufactured with the goal of being CC'd. Most people prefer to CC striker-fired pistols without manual safeties. As such, there is a need to ensure that people feel safe and confident that they won't shoot themselves. So, heavier triggers with internal safeties are the norm.

>>32744692
Serious target shooters also modify their triggers.

>>32744558
The lighter the trigger, the more calibration is needed to make sure that it doesn't go off accidentally and actually functions properly. A light trigger isn't just "put smaller spring in lol," things have to be tuned and polished very precisely to make a crisp, light trigger that won't go off from setting the gun down too roughly and will reset properly when released.

All of that requires manual work by experienced technicians, which costs more than companies making sub-$300 gangbanger handguns give a shit.

Precision costs money.

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>>32744789
>I didn't expect a second world combloc trigger to be good.
Nor would I, but I expect more from first world, 21st century manufacturing.
>As such, there is a need to ensure that people feel safe and confident that they won't shoot themselves. So, heavier triggers with internal safeties are the norm.
Does your arm have a mind of its own that you need an inferior trigger to keep from shooting yourself?

>>32744692
>comp shooters have light triggers
>that means heavy triggers are shit
What? Just because a trigger is heavy doesn't mean it's shit. Maybe if you have bonitis and your heart attacks put you to sleep at night and you have a finger strength of -12

>>32744836
do you possess such hubris that you cannot accept the idea of an accident?

Do you possess such weakness you cannot put shots on target at self defense ranges with a heavier trigger?

>>32744833
They have to because most (but not all) factory triggers are garbage. I'm looking at you, Remington.
>>32744835
>the more calibration is needed to make sure that it doesn't go off accidentally and actually functions properly
That's true, but competent manufacturers should hold themselves to that high standard if they want any respect.
>>32744868
>comp shooters have light triggers
>that means heavy triggers are shit
No, the fact that heavy triggers are less likely to put bullets on target means that heavy triggers are shit.
>>32744882
>do you possess such hubris that you cannot accept the idea of an accident?
Even when I'm drunk, I have enough motor skills not to pull on a trigger if I don't want to.
>Do you possess such weakness you cannot put shots on target at self defense ranges with a heavier trigger?
I can manage a bad trigger, but why would I want to? Why would I want to make shooting more difficult when I could make it easier instead?

>>32744692
It depends on the shooter.
A heavy, short, crisp trigger can be shot just as accurately as a hair trigger.

>>32744957
Yes, it can be, but not as easily. Life is hard enough without going out of your way to make it more difficult.

>>32744558
>It's universally acknowledged among shooters that a lighter trigger is one of the surest ways to improve practical accuracy

Except that is not the case.

>>32744836
I don't design the guns, I'm just explaining why they are the way they are. I personally would prefer a slightly heavier trigger if I was carrying a loaded pistol with no manual safety, simply because it makes me feel more confident that i won't shoot myseld when holstering/unholstering it. On top of that, i feel as though if the person is close enough to threaten my safety, they're close enough that a 5lb trigger won't matter.
>inb4 firefight

>>32744956
You can't squeeze with the force of 7lbs without the muzzle of your gun moving 45 degrees?

>>32744657

Their excuse is "not being fucking sued" you dimwit.

Especially post Remington nonsense.

>>32744973
So Jeff Cooper, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, Jerry Miculek, and generations of target competitors have all been lying to us for the past 60 years?

>>32744956
>Even when I'm drunk, I have enough motor skills not to pull on a trigger if I don't want to.
Then carry a gun with a custom fit 1lb trigger, one in the pipe, safety always off.
In fact, why not keep your finger on the trigger 24/7, since you're so unlikely to ever make a mistake

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>>32744868

>>32744995
Accuracy means more than being within 45 degrees of angle.
>>32745028
Then carry a gun with a custom fit 1lb trigger, one in the pipe, safety always off.
If I knew of an aftermarket trigger maker who made such a trigger that functioned properly, I would be at the gunsmith's office having it installed instead of writing this right now.
>In fact, why not keep your finger on the trigger 24/7, since you're so unlikely to ever make a mistake
Because my hands would get tired.

>>32744596
>Have carry gun with super light trigger
>ND into your balls

They put heavy triggers on carry guns as a safety feature so you don't need to rely on a manual safety while carrying. In a life or death situation your fine motor skills go to shit therefore having a heavier trigger with no safety is more desirable than a light trigger with a manual safety to operate.

>>32744956
>That's true, but competent manufacturers should hold themselves to that high standard if they want any respect.

>Every gun should be an expensive, high-precision gun
>Why do companies besides anschuetz even bother existing
>If you can't make 1 inch groups at 25 yards why would you even want a pistol?

People have budgets, and for a self defense gun that's realistically never going to be shot outside of 10 yard at a man-sized target there's more important attributes than being able to pull the trigger with a mouse fart.

>>32744558
other than liability you got cost. not every one needs a light trigger and making consistently good triggers is expensive.
theres a reason a Giselle costs 200 bucks and your milspec triggers 25

>>32745098
Don't bother explaining this, op is immune to ever making mistakes

>>32745085
That's what I was implying. If you seriously can't keep your muzzle on target while squeezing with 7lbs of force you should think about seeking help for your severe lack of grip strength.

>>32745102
>>32745106
I have in my arsenal a $700 pistol with a factory trigger that breaks at less than 4 lbs. The fact that some manufacturers are able to do it--and do it at a reasonable price--proves that ALL competent manufacturers could do it if they were willing.
>>32745113
It depends on the size of the target. Anybody can hit the broad side of a barn, even with a terrible trigger, but to place the bullet EXACTLY where you want, you're better off with a light, crisp trigger.

>>32745098
I don't appendix carry, so that's not a problem for me.

The meme that when in a situation where you have to shoot you lack the motor skills to use a safety but possess the motor skills to aim, shoot, follow up is a meme. >>32745098

If you're contending that someone will not remember to turn off the safety then that is a viable complaint. If you contend that muscle memory mitigates the motor skill failure in aiming and shooting - why won't muscle memory mitigate the motor skill failure of taking off the safety, aiming and shooting?

That being said they don't need to be mouse fart triggers. I just very much like DA/SA for that reason - you can carry DA if you are safety conscious and SA hammer down if you prefer an immediate solid pull.

>>32745010
When was the last time Timney, Jewell, and Jaeger got sued?

>>32745182
>proves that ALL competent manufacturers could do it if they were willing.
Yeah, and they're not willing, get over it. For the reasons like 3 anons explained in this thread
No manual safety = more reliance on trigger safeties. This includes higher trigger weights and internal trigger safeties

Quit bitching and whining, you asked an autistic question, and got several good answers

>>32745182
>I have a mid-range pistol with a reasonably normal trigger pull for single-action

Amazing.

>>32745268
>I have a mid-range pistol with a reasonably normal trigger pull for single-action
That's true.
>Amazing.
What's amazing is that a mid-range trigger is so light compared to most other factory triggers on the market. That further proves my point that trigger weights on factory guns are out of control.
>>32745262
I suppose it makes sense considering that most gun owners have not been--and probably never will be--in a gunfight. Guns aren't really weapons. They're just expensive toys that make ignorant customers FEEL safe. The manufacturers will continue to pump out any garbage that will sell, and gunsmiths will continue to replace triggers for the enlightened few.

>Why do so many manufacturers continue to make guns with heavy triggers

Because they aren't trying to make THE BEST GUN. They are trying to make a gun that people will buy, and that means competitive pricing and how much gun you're getting for the money.

>Oh but they should hold themselves to the standard of making -

Yes, and some manufacturers do. They make expensive guns that most of the public won't buy, and therefore limit their markets significantly. There is a place in the market for guns that have triggers that do the job, it's most of the market because those guns are actually affordable for most people.

>Oh but those dumb plebs don't know what's good for them

Neat. Most of the public wants a gun that shoots, they could give less of a fuck about how light the trigger pull is or how smooth the action is or if you can do handstands on the strength of the magwell. Not to mention that a lot of bulk buyers are duty guns, which actually don't want a light trigger pull and could give less of a damn about how good the trigger is in general.

Existing triggers produce functional accuracy that does the job. Going above and beyond is nice, but also not an incredible boon in and of itself and prohibitively expensive for most people and organizations.

You might as well be asking why all computers don't sport top of the line octo-core CPUs. Or why all cars aren't sports cars.

There is also the fact that you want a relatively heavy trigger on anything you carry to minimize unintended discharges.

>Oh but I'm a special snowflake and I never have those, and therefore the rest of the public will never have them either

Yeah, sure you are bud.

So you go right ahead and continue denying reality. Let's see you mass produce guns with "good" triggers, and see how well they sell.

>>32745329
It is not a matter of cost. See >>32745182
>There is also the fact that you want a relatively heavy trigger on anything you carry to minimize unintended discharges.
This has been greatly exaggerated. Most unintentional discharges are the result of DELIBERATELY pulling on the trigger because the user "didn't know" or "forgot" the gun was loaded. Are there triggers that are difficult to touch without firing? Yes, but their pull weight is typically measured in ounces, not lbs. For me, 3 lbs is ample weight on a handgun, and 2 lbs is not out of the question, but most factory triggers are at least double that.
>Oh but I'm a special snowflake and I never have those, and therefore the rest of the public will never have them either
I never said that I was exceptional. In fact, the fact that I can easily manage a 2-3 lbs trigger is evidence to the fact that the general public can too.

>>32745098
>Having your finger on trigger when unholstering and not pointed at the target.

First mistake, you were never ready.

If guns came with high quality triggers, who would sell aftermarket triggers for big piles of cash?

>>32745013
Yes

Am I the only one that doesn't even like ultra-light triggers? I'd much rather have a 7lb than a 3-5, especially on a pistol. It just make it akward if you can't rest your finger on the trigger without setting it off.

>>32745833
No, the majority of CC'ers agree with you.

>>32745435
>I have a 700 dollar pistol that has a 4 pound trigger, therefore all manufacturers should be able to produce 4 pound triggers

You forget that a lot of people and orgs aren't gonna pay 700 bucks for a pistol, and fail to address the point that guns with heavier triggers produce acceptable accuracy while being cheaper.

Accuracy is not the be all, end all of shooting. Or I should say, it might be for you but it most certainly isn't for the rest of the world.

>Most NDs are people deliberately pulling the trigger
and that isn't what a stiff trigger counteracts. A stiff trigger counteracts the trigger getting caught on things in the process of trying to draw it or otherwise maneuvering it on your person.

>I never said I was exceptional
Yes you did. You're pretending that you never ever make mistakes, and deliberately ignoring scenarios where something ends up inside the trigger guard and pressing on the trigger that you can't control. It's easier to screw up with a 3 pound trigger than it is a 7 pound trigger.

>>32745888
/thread

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Because if my trigger pull is any lighter, my primers don't detonate reliably.

>>32744558
>that a lighter trigger is one of the surest ways to improve practical accuracy,

nope
a smoother/shorter trigger is

I shoot just fine with a 6 pound trigger where I can't shoot for shit with a stagey gritty 3 pound

>>32744692
>Again, it is universally acknowledged among shooters that a lighter trigger will allow for greater practical accuracy.

wrong

>>32745888
>You forget that a lot of people and orgs aren't gonna pay 700 bucks for a pistol
And that's fine, but $700 is not very expensive as pistols go, so don't tell me that it's too expensive to make a pistol with a good trigger. It does NOT cost a fortune. It is UNWILLINGNESS on the part of manufacturers, not prohibitive cost, that gives us bad triggers.
>Accuracy is not the be all, end all of shooting. Or I should say, it might be for you but it most certainly isn't for the rest of the world.
I respectfully disagree with you. The ONLY purpose of a gun is to send bullets exactly where the shooter wants them to go. A gun that puts bullets in the bullseye every single time and WITH EASE is a good gun.
>and that isn't what a stiff trigger counteracts.
That's my point. Even a stiff trigger is not going to prevent most accidents, but it will prevent (or at least make very difficult) good marksmanship.
>Yes you did. You're pretending that you never ever make mistakes, and deliberately ignoring scenarios where something ends up inside the trigger guard and pressing on the trigger that you can't control. It's easier to screw up with a 3 pound trigger than it is a 7 pound trigger.
Using proper holstering technique obviates that problem without sacrificing the performance of the gun. It's not too much to ask for a shooter to keep unwanted objects out of his trigger guard. You are treating that type of accident as an inevitability, in which case, even a heavy trigger is unlikely to prevent an AD. You say "that you can't control," but the shooter absolutely CAN control what objects get inside his trigger guard.

>>32746213
Crispness is more important than weight, but weight is important too.
>>32746220
Then why does this exist?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9gn7zE5b3g

>>32746278
because he doesn't carry that gun

>>32744596
>something stupid

You're stupid.

Stop being stupid.

>1911 is the best handgun in the world to shoot someone with.
>1911 is the worst handgun in the world to NOT shoot someone with.

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>>32746298
First you deny that a lighter trigger is an aide to marksmanship. I provide evidence that it is, in fact, an aide to marksmanship. Then you say that doesn't matter because it isn't a "carry" gun. You are shifting the goalposts.

On top of this, you do not provide any explanation as to why a "carry" gun should be less accurate than any other.
>>32746310
Not an argument.

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>>32746343
I don't buy handguns to not shoot with.

>>32745469

This guy wins the thread. Get the trigger you shoot best, shoot the fuck out of it, don't shoot yourself with it.

OP, the reasons are dumbshit lawyers and dumbshit people.

>Light triggers are the best thing ever omgggg they're so good oh goooooodd

I bet you're one of those faggots who spends 3k on a custom trigger job and jerks off about how it's better than sex and then can't shoot for shit anyway

Light trigger is what you do once you've already learned how to shoot, it doesn't magically make someone who can't shoot into a better shot

>>32746474
>Light trigger is what you do once you've already learned how to shoot, it doesn't magically make someone who can't shoot into a better shot
I agree. A light trigger is an AIDE to marksmanship, not a substitute.

>>32744558
1. To make it harder for retards to nd
2. A heavy trigger pull means less time/money quality checking triggers. A 10lb trigger which is made sloppy and off by a pound either way isn't as bad as a 4lb trigger being off by a pound

>>32746690
>1. To make it harder for retards to nd
Nothing is foolproof.
>A heavy trigger pull means less time/money quality checking triggers
Oy vey!

>>32744558
Because for every 1 guy that knows what he's doing and would actually benefit from a good trigger, there's 3000 "I shoot 1 round from my durr rifle a year" fudds and "I glockleg myself 3x a month Barney Fifes in the world.

>>32745240
When was the last time a Timney, Jewll, or Jaeger trigger was put in a mass-produced gun marketed globally?

Also Timney has 2 pending lawsuits and settled an ND suit out of court in November 2016, so quite recently.

>>32744868
>just because a trigger is heavy doesn't mean it's shit
Yes, that's exactly what it means.

>>32745789
You, sir, are a complete and total, unsalvageable retard.

>>32745102
With everybody and their dead dog (IE, everybody from Hi Point through Accuracy International and everyone in between, literally every single non-Russian firearms company and most of the Russian ones) doing wire EDM, there's literally no excuse.

Wire EDM is precise (accurate to half a thousandth of an inch), cheap (costs less than a 3-axis CNC machine with no tool wear), and automated (no skilled labor required). Literally stick a well-designed CAD file in the computer and go.

Or did you seriously think all those Timney, Rifle Basix, Jard, and so on and so forth triggers were meticulously hand-fitted by master craftsmen?

>>32746748
>Also Timney has 2 pending lawsuits and settled an ND suit out of court in November 2016, so quite recently.
Source?

>>32746849
LSI law journal, which AFAIK is confidential or at least restricted access. I'm a law student and it was brought up in class last week.

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I'm not gonna call you out for being a faggot who is wrong and also loves dicks, but

>competition shooters do it, so it must be better for practical use!

is a fucking retarded argument

>>32746903
Yes, because a physical modification that doesn't change the exterior dimensions or weight of a gun but provides a significant, tangible/measurable benefit in one category with little to no drawback in any other category is somehow a retarded argument and your fallacious comparison to the extensive modifications that significantly change the weight and exterior dimensions of bows isn't.

>>32746922
I was talking about the titty harness

>>32746903
Looks like a practical setup for survivalist bow hunting to me, anon.

>>32746941
What, you mean the thing thats sole job is to keep his shirt from getting caught in shit because there's a dress code for formal competition and he can't wear something more snug like he would in practice?

Okay. Not part of the gun/bow/whatever and an even more fallacious argument than the one I assumed you were making.

>>32746960
I know, I just like it when you use all those big words, bby