Has anyone ever taken out a SWAT team? Has anyone at least survived/gotten

https://youtu.be/jQvDn9MEtNo

>>32741283
No.
Yes. Usually by not being where the team was.
Terrorists? Yes, SF missions have gone bad. Robbers, or terrorists in a first world nation? No.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lakewood-nj-swat-team-shootout-4-cops-wounded-in-drug-raid/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shootings_of_Oakland_police_officers

Being SWAT doesn't make you invincible.

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In the sense that he took his life on his own terms after trashing a dozen homes and businesses.

The guy is probably the closest thing America has ever seen to a supervillain. Apart from his ostentatious vehicle, he wrote this in a manifest left behind: "I was always willing to be reasonable until I had to be unreasonable"

>>32741328
>wounded

goddamn dese niggas never die do they?

>>32741283
There are cases but it usually ends up in the death of the people fighting them. Most people aren't prepared and don't have body armor and shit.

>>32741283
Eric frien eluded PA state police teams for more than a month.

>>32741283
There was a guy in my state a while back who went all David Koresh on everyone and thought angels were coming to take him to hell. He was an Iwo Jima veteran and turned his house into a kill zone. Wounded two SWAT officers and took a bullet himself in the fight. His house caught fire during the raid and by the time a robot went into the house he had died from blood loss/smoke. So technically he beat a SWAT team back.

>>32741303
One SWAT member wounded. Hardly beating a SWAT team.

http://theantimedia.org/man-shot-killed-police-officer-will-charged/

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/prosecutor-seeking-death-penalty-officer-killed-knock-raid/

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/no-knock-raid-exonerated-shooting-cops/

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/12/13/texas-man-found-not-guilty-for-shooting-three-cops-during-no-knock-raid/

>>32741283
If you got the swat already there, you sat there too long.

>>32741346
>The guy is probably the closest thing America has ever seen to a supervillain
>Implying Heemeyer wasn't hero

>>32741790
He did push them back out of his house though.

I bet if he left out the back he would be practically scott-free in a few minutes.

Those guys don't exactly exude competency you know.

>>32741283
my uncle was a member of a swat team in Odessa, Texas stinging a ring of car thieves. Car thieves had set up triangulation of fire from grain silohs that the cops didnt see, and they ambushed the cops. He was the only surviving member of his specific team that lived through the ambush. I believe this was in the 80s, and ive only heard my cousin mention it a couple of times. My dad told me first.

I don't think anyone in the US has ever thought in terms of taking out a team. If they baited the team into a kill zone with multiple IEDs they could do it by remote control. Getting into a gun battle would be stupid. War isn't sportsmanship.

Hypothetically one might bait the team into besieging a target, wait until most enter a building then drop the building on top of them. Secondary and tertialy IEDs could bag the rest.

Ambushes are common in ragheadland but the only Americans who troll for contact with police tend to be crazy and stupid, neither of which helps their cause.

>>32741901
>I bet if he left out the back he would be practically scott-free in a few minutes.

maybe if the team was completely retarded but that's not how it works against anyone slightly competent. even the most basic of swat training teaches leaders to establish blocking positions to prevent suspects from escaping off the objective.

the guys in the video were pretty good all things considered. nobody looks good running into a room and taking full auto AK fire, even if you're the most elite guys out there.

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>>32741819
Imagine hearing someone trying to crawl in your fucking window at night, grabbing your AK and yelling "GET TEH FUCK OUT OF MY HOUSE" only to have an officer realize a firearm is pointed at him and then open fire on you.

Do you:
1. shoot back! he's already shooting at you because he's obviously a fucking madman disguised as a cop trying to crawl in your fucking window

2. run, hide, try not to get shot, surrender

???
I think if bullet start coming your direction too quickly you'll start banging your weapon back.

That no-knock shit is just ridiculous. Yes they actually crawled in through some guy's windows and got shot.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/what-happens-when-civilian-kills-cop-self-defense

prepare to rage

>>32741328
That Oakland one always made me fucking rage.
The perp was a rapist who pulled a gun and murdered two officers during a traffic stop, then two more later resisting arrest, and people actually had the fucking gall to call it police racism and praise him as some sort of black hero.

>>32742057
yes that makes me fucking mad, that he pled guilty at all just to get out immediately.

They would have and should have had to pay him for his time served in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Never should have pled guilty for the time served release.

>>32742100
The state are such fucking Jews trying to avoid paying him for wrongfully imprisoning him.

Fuck them.

>>32742040
>even the most basic of swat training teaches leaders to establish blocking positions

depends on the police department, big cities will train them, but small town SWAT is friends letting friends on with almost zero training

>>32741819
I don't have a link, but even up here in Canada there was a case where a pair of detectives I think performed a completely unnecessary no-knock in the middle of the night, and the homeowner grabbed a .357 and shot them both. One died. He was acquitted, and the judge basically told the police they were fucking stupid and had done it to themselves.

>>32742056
>That no-knock shit is just ridiculous. Yes they actually crawled in through some guy's windows and got shot.

And the deserved every bit of it.I have no sympathy for SWAT until they stop the jackbooted bullshit

>>32742057
>http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/what-happens-when-civilian-kills-cop-self-defense
read a little deeper cause not all of these "self defense" shootings are just that.

Christina Korbe was aware that her husband dealt drugs. The police did in fact knock and announce themselves before making entry. Christina Korbe was not home alone with her 2 kids as the article implies; her husband was in the basement trying to dump his coke. She actually bragged about killing a cop and being a jailhouse celebrity during phone calls she made from jail.

The reason she pled guilty was because her lawyer knew there was no way in hell she could ever be acquitted.

>>32741303

>17 rounds

>3 penetrating armor

>1 through the hand

Dude this guy's a fucking beast.

>>32742250
that's real NATO.

What kind of shitty armor did he have on?

>>32741753
Went out like a champ. Respect.

>>32742141
this is true. those small town teams can sometimes be extremely negligent to the extent of being basically a disaster waiting to happen.

that being said the speed at which they dealt with a failed explosive breach and went to mechanical breaching suggests that the team knew what they were doing

>>32742334
Sssh, this is /k/ where we cherrypick examples of SWAT teams fucking up and act like all SWAT teams are a disaster waiting to happen.
Don't let the fact that most are reasonably well trained and professional get in the way of the narrative.

>>32741427
>goddamn dese niggas never die do they?
They're armed and more importantly armoured to the the teeth, always seiege before entering and only ever engage in overwhelming numbers when they're almost certain of success.

If you're looking for a 'fair fight', anything invovling SWAT or in fact police of any kind, is probably not where to look.

It's the 'everyone goes home' mentality. There was some police commander talking about it once, in the context of unnecessary shootings, that if they accepted poilcing as a dangerous job like soldiering and tolerated the occasional death, they'd draw their guns a lot less and both less civilians and possibly less police would actually die.

>>32741328
Dinkheller video.

That video made me legit sad/angry.

>>32743116
the sad thing is that some of these retards really think that when the cops come for their guns, they're going to wake up at a moments notice, gun down 5 guys in a stack, slip out the back door, and disappear into the night

>>32741979
wasn't there a guy that set off a gas explosion in his home because he knew a team was coming in? i have a vague memory of this from somewhere. maybe it wasn't the US though.

>>32743298
is this bait? i don't know anyone in the right circles who believes that. on the "they takin' muh guns" day every SWAT team that participates puts their own families lives in jeopardy, indefinitely. militia have already told the FBI they'll just go to them; doesn't matter what state "it" happens in. if it's a federal action, every federal agent is at risk. both sides understand the correct picture of what this potentiality looks like is "mutually assured destruction." or, well, attrition, anyway.

this has been established since at least the '94 AWB. how new are you?

>>32741979
In theory this is possible but as a reality most criminals are not skilled bombmakers. Plus a competent team should have done some surveillance before mission planning, so the suspect has to live in the house with his bombs if he wants a team to come in after him.

>>32743305
I think that was in central America, and the guy left before the cops arrived and left the present for them.

The fact remains that in most scenarios you aren't gonna beat the police at their own game unless they're very, very negligent and you've worked your ass off and know they're coming. If it's gotten to the point that the SWAT are coming you've already fucked up badly, you're much better off just not being on the hit list or not being there in the first place if you are.

>>32743383
I'm talking about the specific situation of trying to defeat a police entry team coming to your house, not the general validity of armed resistance against a police state. I agree that in the US it's not currently possible for nationwide weapons confiscation to happen, simply because the police live relatively close to the areas they have to police.

WRT to the specific situation I was talking about, a lot of "preppers" know literally nothing about SWAT tactics and think they're all fat bumbling idiots, which is far from the case. With 16 years and counting of non-stop warfare, there are a lot of military veterans in police forces around the country, and a lot of them gravitate towards SWAT type positions that better resemble their previous line of work. For example the USMS guy who arrested Eric Frein used to be a sniper team leader in the 75th Ranger Regiment, then a 18C in 19th SFG. With guys like that in all the big teams, most everyone else on the team busts their ass to keep up, too.

>>32741979
>Hypothetically
keep in mind that there will be a command post staged nearby with communications capability pretty much identical to the dispatch operator in any station, so, you won't actually be punishing the people who planned/ordered the raid unless you also hit that. nor will you stop reinforcements from coming either way, and, if you're close enough to orchestrate that action they'll go straight to an APB to catch you.

>>32743385
ah yeah, you'll also have to upset their planning by getting inside their OODA loop. and that will probably take nothing less than acquiring a hostage! good luck, kek

>>32743505
well correct any such retards you meet ASAP. i've never met a single one. if i saw comments like that on the internet i would immediately suspect an agent provocateur.

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>>32741283

No, because real life isn't the movies.

At this point the use of SWAT teams has grown to 50,000 uses a year mainly for serving simple warrants or summons.

http://reason.com/archives/2014/07/23/over-policing-america

>>32743214
Dude... The sound.

The sound of a young 20 something desperately trying to grasp on to life as he realizes it's probably over is horrifying.

It hits a deep, visceral part of my mind.

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>>32743549
To be fair, that cripple did attempt to attack a woman a couple seconds before his beating. Use this example instead, this one is pretty much inexcusable.

>>32743543
literally >>32741901

>>32742164
i heard about this. the guy they raided was a big drug dealer too, i think.

>>32741939
Jesus Christ. The 80s was not a good time for cops.
>Cops killed by gunfire from 2006 to 2016: 562
>Cops killed by gunfire from 1980 to 1989: 817

>>32743549
Pretty sure he's not even crippled just pulling a Ray from TPB

>>32742092
He was a piece of shit, but he killed a grip of cops, which redeems him.

>>32743686

Fuck me... Are you telling me being a firefighter is almost 2X as dangerous as a cop?

My station just went over some stats saying that an average of around 100 firefighters are killed every year in the line of duty...

>>32744016
Definitely. Compared to other occupations, cop is pretty safe.
You want danger, go be a lumberjack or fisherman.

>>32744016
Cops don't get killed nearly as often as people think.

>>32744030
>Definitely. Compared to other occupations, cop is pretty safe.
>>32744040
>Cops don't get killed nearly as often as people think.
This. See >>32743193

>>32743694

actually he was, and the same cop threatened the arrest the caretaker for protesting his actions

>>32743620
>cop originally got away scot free
>newly elected DA finally brought charges of "involuntary" manslaughter
>convicted but only 180 days in jail

government privilege sure is grand

>>32743620
Story?

>>32744192

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/10/18/california-cop-patrick-feaster-guilty-of-manslaughter-in-shooting-death-of-dui-suspect/

>>32744192
>Story?
According to who?

The first time around, police said that he was simply being prepared to defend himself and that the gun ND'd. Apparently his stopping to aim and fire was a 'surprised reaction to the ND'.

I could believe it was a brain fart of some sort, I don't believe the ND. Why did he even draw?

>>32744192
I may not be remembering this correctly
>drunk driver decides to try and outrun the cops
>wrecks his truck
>manages to survive and starts hauling himself out
>officer fatass doubletaps him without a word
>lies his ass off about cod

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>>32743620
>fat fuck cop's name is Feaster

>>32744275
>>drunk driver decides to try and outrun the cops
>>wrecks his truck
I think that's approximately right. Also his wife was in the car and died at the scene.

Victim died a few weeks later from the GSWs.

Cop didn't tell anyone about the shots until the medic found them when he was wondering what the guy was bleeding from. Shot in the throat I think.

>>32744345

from what i read the guy tried to tell the medics that he was shot but the cops on scene cussed him out and called him a liar

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>rigs entire house to blow
>Detonates when entire team rushes inside


Swat BTFO literally, Happened in germany

>>32741819
Shit like this makes me cringe. I have a lighter hammer spring in a few of my pistols and sometimes i think about how bad it would be if i ever had to shoot someone. Shit sucks. The only way you know youre safe is if youre backed into a corner mid rape.

http://bulletsfirst.net/2013/11/08/mans-home-castle-except-maryland-man-shoots-intruder-2am-gets-charged-murder/

>>32744040
>>32743694

Over 100 cops die in the line of duty each year. I believe around 130 or so in 2016.

>>32744030
http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2016

>>32745245
Alright anon, lets do some math real quick.

Using the 2006-2016 numbers from >>32743686
We see that 562 cops died over a 10 year span.
562/10=56.2, lets round that up to 57. So from 2006-2016 we had an average of 57 cops die every year. 57=/=100.

So if 101 or more die every year (you said over 100), on average, where are the other 44+ from 2006-2016?

>>32745302
>where are the other 44+ from 2006-2016?
presumably some of them got hit by cars, crashed their own cars, got stabbed, got beaten, etc

>>32743772
Nigger what.

>>32743772

this

>>32744016

pizza delivery man is the most dangerous job in the country.

being a garbage man is far more dangerous than being a cop

>>32745618
this is true but it's worth remembering that body armor, guns, SWAT teams, and use-of-force training are at least in part responsible for low police LODD stats. if we went back to the bad old days where cops had no armor, no backup, no less-lethal, etc (as some people advocate) the numbers certainly wouldn't be as low as they are now.

>>32744515
And sometimes, surrendering to police is how you get killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Terrance_Williams_and_Felipe_Santos

That's a case of an actual police serial killer (probably). And they still won't charge him.

>>32745302
That post said only gunfire. Did you not open the link posted above? 140 officers died on duty in 2016. Not all from gun fire, but you get the point.

>>32745302
66 were killed by gunfire ALONE last year for the record.

>>32745697
>it's worth remembering that body armor, guns, SWAT teams, and use-of-force training are at least in part responsible for low police LODD stats
Not through the actual use of that force like you seem to be implying. It's the ability(and legality) of using force that acts as a deterrent, preventing itself from being needed most of the time.

But the other anons are correct, Policing on average is as dangerous as an office job(muh HVAC-related illnesses). If you want to experience serious danger, do work on or under the water, around machinery, or around falling trees.
>underwater welding
>3 year life expectancy from time of starting the job
There is one way cops should be dying a lot but aren't - car crashes. Not sure how to explain that.

>>32745702
Yes but I didn't see it until I had already posted.

Admittedly it was what I was asking for. A source as to what would make the yearly average for 2006-2016 go to 100+.

>>32745714
So? I was pointing out the 10 year average from 2006-2016. At least for firearm fatalities.

>>32745763
>There is one way cops should be dying a lot but aren't - car crashes. Not sure how to explain that.
Everybody avoids cop cars in traffic and tries extra hard not to hit or be hit by them because they'd probably be framed for reckless driving or something. Or at least are afraid that they would be.

>>32745763
>There is one way cops should be dying a lot but aren't - car crashes. Not sure how to explain that.
how so? NLEOMF says 408 died in auto accidents from 2006 to 2015 and 128 were fatally struck by vehicles.

>>32745763
I think its a bit of >>32745800 plus more time in their cars and more training on driving probably gives them the little edge to keep it from being higher.

>>32745804
Given how many cops are on the roads at all hours in all sort of a traffic, that seems ridiculously low.

>>32745763
Cops drive a lot and have a lot of distractions in their car.
Also, the profession attracts a demographic that seems to include a lot of drunks.

>>32745804
>408+128 = 536 traffic-related fatalities
>over ten years
>out of 3/4mill full-time sworn officers
Are you low-IQ/black? Learn what per capita means, learn what rates are, Jemarcus.

The point stands. LEOs have an amazingly low incidence of traffic fatalities relative to the number of man-hours spent on the road. And that surprises me, because the road kills the shit out of people.

>>32745847
>more time in their cars and more training on driving probably gives them the little edge
Oh, some of them are edgy all right...

But seriously, think of them as taxi drivers who do actual offensive driving courses from time to time.

Taxis have way less accidents than you'd expect on a strict hours basis but the drivers are obviously pretty experienced.

Truck drivers have accidents but I think they probably get undue attention due to the innate seriousness of those accidents, they're also more likely to have accidents because they're often fatigued/high from long distance driving of course.

>>32745887
Go back to elementary school and work on reading comprehension, Trayvon

>>32745697
>getting this confused with cause and effect

>>32745896 (samefag)
>408+128 = 536 traffic-related fatalities
>over ten years
>out of 3/4mill full-time sworn officers
0.007% per year, if I didn't scrooge up the math

>>32745847
>Given how many cops are on the roads at all hours in all sort of a traffic, that seems ridiculously low.

>>32745896
no need to be a salty bitch, i don't remember occupational death statistics for other driving related jobs.

i don't know what the numbers are like for other occupations that require a lot of driving but it seems reasonable to me.

some back of the napkin math:
there are ~ 3.5million truck drivers in the US. from 1992-1995 they had 2,361 traffic related fatalities. so per year that's 0.00016864285 fatalities per person.

with ~ 750,000 LEOs in the US, from 2006 to 2015 there were 536 traffic related fatalities, so that's 0.00007146666 fatalities per person each year.

so cops die about half as often as truckers in traffic accidents.

there were about 225,000 taxicab drivers in the US in 1995 (this is a big guesstimate based on a paper saying "over 200,000" and the current number being reported as ~230,000). From 1992-1995 they had only 78 traffic related fatalities. so per year that's 0.00008666666 deaths per person.

so yeah cops die slightly less often in traffic than taxicab drivers.

>>32745956
are you seriously saying that if cops went back to 1 man patrols, no armor, no tasers, etc LODD stats would remain as they are? i never said those things are solely responsible for reduction in LODD but it makes no sense to pretend they made no difference whatsoever.

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Sometime in 2012 I was asked to participate in an active shooter training scenario with all of the local PD. I live in an area with state police, boarder patrol, two tribal police agencies, sheriff, DNR, wildlife,and public safety.

Since all of them are within close proximity to each other they all cross deputized and regularly train with each other, as such this active shooter scenario had officers from all the agencies in attendance.

Although it was only a training exercise I repeatedly assfucked them given any chance I got, unfortunately they kept having me do doctored scenarios

Absolutely stupid, and anytime I deviated from the plan they paused the scenario and told me I had to do what they said.

Later in the day

>be me
>make fun of cops for playing on easy mode
>given a gun and told to wait in the bathroom for cops to come clear it
> I stand on toilet in center stall, because who looks up to see whos in a stall?
> Lights are off, I can see the doorway through the reflection on the tile
>cops come in 3 man stack
>one peers low and checks the floor to see whos in there
> nobody, they begin to enter fully to double check
> I unload into their heads hitting all of them
>first man down calls himself out
>other two fire wildly into ceiling and drag their comrade with them
>never even come close to hitting me
>they tell the marshall "we got him"
>they proceed down hall
> I wait...
>step out of stall and quietly clear the doorway
> see cop I shot earlier lying in the hall
> take his gun and waistband it
> game marshall asks me what I'm doing
> I tell him "I didnt get shot, and nobody came to kill me. I'm going to kill them since they probably arent watching their backs.

>Marshall ends training session and bitches out the clearing force.

> mfw all of the cops know who I am now. pic related.

>>32746099

your mistake was mixing in swat with body armor and better training. although today's cops are quite contemptuous of de-escalation because they believe it violates officer safety absolutism.

swat tactics today demonstrably encourage violent encounters which occasionally ends up with dead cops. most of the time the civilians die but cops don't care about that, obviously.

inb4 swat tactics are needed, the vast majority of swat deployments are against hapless sleeping victims with no record of violence at 4am for petty drug warrants.

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>>32746158
> mfw all of the cops know who I am now. pic related.

oh ok

anyways they're retarded for letting a guy call himself out in force on force training. way to teach him to quit if he ever gets shot for real.

also being proud for deviating from the training scenarios and standing on a toilet in a stall is stupid. Yay good for you, you trapped yourself in a box that won't stop actual rounds at all! If live rounds were flying you would have been completely fucked with nowhere to go and nothing to stop rounds with. Also I'm sure those departments loved that you wasted their training time and money deliberately taking advantage of training artificiality.

>>32746241
>the vast majority of swat deployments are against hapless sleeping victims with no record of violence at 4am for petty drug warrants.
citation needed

>tfw using robots, an armored car, and cold gas is encouraging violent encounters.

>>32746284

https://www.aclu.org/report/war-comes-home-excessive-militarization-american-police

65% of raids are explicitly stated as looking for drugs on search warrants with no proof that the target might resist hence justifying swat deployment and a no-knock raid.

>robots, an armored car, and cold gas
>implying billy bob swat in fuckstown USA has any of that

they just barge in without knocking at the dead of night. this is when cops get shot by confused and groggy homeowners. thankfully the homeowners that survive have been getting acquitted recently, one dude in the early 2000's was almost put to death for murder before exculpatory evidence was admitted showing the cops lied throughout the first trial.

>>32746284

You should probably know that these scenarios were absolute horseshit, and criticizing me for being in the trapped box they put me in? You cant say I did something stupid if they put me there for an easy feel good patch. And even if live rounds were fired they would have to come close to hitting me... they didnt.

want an example of their properly calculated training scenarios?

Have me stand in a middle of a hall facing forward with no cover waiting for them to round a corner.... Did that for like 30 min while I played shooting dummy for them.

Decided to duck and strafe once and they called it.

Yes, calling yourself out in a force on force match is poor and after repeated attempts would probably have negative effects, but they should probably be consistent with it. if they can keep going after a headshot thats fine, but a little bit of humility would have been fine too.

>>32746284
>The point of the training is to try to get the cops to harden the fuck up so when some genius stands on top of a toilet in the stall in the real world, they don't get fucking fragged
>The cops are lazy shits and don't want to do this, they just want to pass the test and get back to riding around in their cruisers all day long
>You are stupid for trying to give them their money's worth instead of wasting the government's money so they can do the room clearing equivalent of a canned hunt and then go home

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I would like to see a SWAT team go after a bee keeper.

Until they burn his place down the SWAT team would have wished they just used the door bell.

>>32746352
>https://www.aclu.org/report/war-comes-home-excessive-militarization-american-police
I'm literally reading the report right now and it's all cringe-worthy whining that the cops have battering rams and MRAPs. as for high-risk vs unknown-risk warrants they couldn't even point out anything wrong except that officers subjectively judge whether suspects were "known to carry a weapon". it's almost like you don't write down every single time someone tells you Jamal packs heat.

Plus you're mixing up no-knock raids with K&A raids. 65% were drug-related, and 60% of those drug-related raids were no-knock (they wrote "No-knock warrants were used (or probably used)" which gives them plenty of room to fudge stats).

>>32746408
my point is that if a real suspect stood in a fucking toilet stall and fired over the top, he would easily be ventilated through the door, something that can't happen with sims or UTM. it's a "tactic" that only works within the confines of force on force training. not sure how you give them their money's worth by training them in a scenario that will likely never happen, and if it does would be relatively easily resolved compared to the alternatives.

>>32746534

>my point is that if a real suspect stood in a fucking toilet stall and fired over the top, he would easily be ventilated through the door, something that can't happen with sims or UTM. it's a "tactic" that only works within the confines of force on force training. not sure how you give them their money's worth by training them in a scenario that will likely never happen, and if it does would be relatively easily resolved compared to the alternatives.

Well said, If that were a real scenario It would only have ended with me getting gassed and smashed.

Putting me in a bathroom was retarded, but I worked with what I had.

honestly I had fun for most of it, But I thought the way they treated the scenario was just straight laziness, and not conducive to proper training.

If I did anything that day was make them remember that theres a chance they'll get straight fucked up even in a easy mode game. Hopefully that stuck with them and made them take charge and not act like fatbodies during their next training session.

>>32746534
>my point is that if a real suspect stood in a fucking toilet stall and fired over the top, he would easily be ventilated through the door, something that can't happen with sims or UTM. it's a "tactic" that only works within the confines of force on force training. not sure how you give them their money's worth by training them in a scenario that will likely never happen, and if it does would be relatively easily resolved compared to the alternatives.

Not the guy youre responding to, but the fact they shot into the ceiling instead of into the stall is the problem. They obviously need to be better at figuring out where the bullets are coming from

>>32746613
im not saying they did anything right
im just saying this anon needs to check his ego and stop acting like he's a badass for doing something gimmicky and beating up on the local yokels.

>>32743214
Tbh senpai dickheller did it to himself. He let dude get away with too much, dickheller should have tazed dude when he rushed. Definitely should have shot him when came out of the truck. Absolutely should have been able to shoot dude from a car length away.

>>32746534
Yeah he would be easily ventilated inside the stall, but the fact remains that they declared the room clear when it wasn't and the assailant was able to fire with the element of surprise because of it.

Frankly, I don't understand why training puts them in these specific scenarios. What is the utility of having a guy stand in the middle of the hallway to be shot when the cops round the corner? That job could be done by a target dummy. The expensive utility of having a human being as your target is that he's going to try to pull tricks like the shooter you'll be chasing in the real world will be, and in that way you can get an idea of how to get around those tricks. He keeps you on your toes.

But I guess they aren't going to be encountering the shooter in the real world because all the cops ever do is sit outside the site of the shooting and wait for the guy to finish his business and an hero or come out into a wall of guns.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shootings_of_Oakland_police_officers

>SKS strong
>shoots officers hand as he attempted to grab and pull his mortally wounded teammate to safety

>pwnd

>>32743686

And what happened in the 90s?

>>32746511

>be beekeeper
>study the chemistry of bee pheromone signals
>create a synthesis for the "RED ALERT ALL BEES ATTACK THIS" chemical marker
>rule the world

>>32746534
>it's almost like you don't write down every single time someone tells you Jamal packs heat.

But that is literally their job. At the beginning of the drug war, the legal pre-requisite for SWAT deployment was exactly that, thus forcing investigators to actually do legwork. In the decades since that legal justification has been totally eroded to the point where the word of a paid CI, or the mere belief of possession of a certain type of drug is justification for a no-knock raid.

>which gives them plenty of room to fudge stats

On the contrary, the reason these stats are hard to come by is because the cops are not even required to document the results of their SWAT deployment. And since federal monetary grants depend partially on the number of "risky deployments", the police have massive incentive to deploy every chance they get, and to lie about the circumstances.

>all cringe-worthy whining that the cops have battering rams and MRAPs

I couldn't care less about the equipment (although giving equipment to ill-trained and morally bankrupt cops is a terrible idea), my concern is the non-existent legal bar for deployments, the creation of monetary incentives for said deployments, and the human cost of these deployments on civilians. The report talks about this, and if you care to read more on the topic, you can find a copy of Radley Balko's book on the topic.

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>>32741283
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er7gzj0BbSE

Not SWAT. But, ATF got outgunned on the first day of Waco. 4 dead, 16 wounded, ran out of ammo, forced to retreat. Didn't end well though.

(That video is trash. Watch 'Waco: The Rules of Engagement')

>>32746511
>I would like to see a SWAT team go after a bee keeper.
Drop one can of CS. Bees drop to the floor.

SWAT would be fine.

>be me
>move in to rented house
>housemate is german backpacker, just arrived in country after doing india/thailand/laos meme trail
>we can call him Christof
>come home, Christof meets me at the door
>says that house is full of bees
>carefully go inside, a few bees
>get to kitchen
>swarming bees
>close both kitchen doors
>Christof gets Indian incense and the hippy incense holder he bought from some meme temple
>I prep door and open a crack
>he slides incense inside
>we wait half an hour
>open door, bees all asleep/dead
>sweep them up and dump in garden
>leave incense for a few hours to be sure

It happened a few more times after we cooked meals, we think they lived in the stove chimney and maybe the previous tenants never cooked or something. After a month or so, it only ever happened once a year or so in summer/spring.

>>32746158
that's funny and they deserved it for being so fucking stupid but I doubt they'll learn from the mistake and get shot at some point

>>32746284
stop being a contrarian sack of shit if you don't have anything intelligent to say, you sound like an angsty teenager

>>32741309
I had a great uncle that hid in a pile of manure until they gave up and left his property. But that was easy mode compared to what he did in Vietnam.

>>32747139
>being this rustled

>>32742056

That's the rub, that you've identified them as police doesn't matter; they're going to kill you the second they see that gun.

There's plenty of SWAT raids where the homeowner gets the drop on the cops, realizes who it is, and gets killed while trying to surrender. Basically, if you're at the point where you're pointing a gun at a cop when you identify them, it's too late. It no longer matters who they are, and your only chance to live is not to hesitate.

>>32743116

lol no they aren't. Most SWAT teams aren't LAPD, they're some podunk county deputies with worse kit than an airsoft team.

Someone tried it once against my county swat team. He came out of his trailer and leveled a rifle at them, the sniper shot him in about 2 seconds.

>Small town near Warsaw, Poland
>2003
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strzelanina_w_Magdalence
It's like a movie. Two guys from "Mutants" gang were to be apprehended. They trapped the whole backyard with mines, grenades and IEDs. TWO GANGSTERS were firing from: pistols (Glock 17, pw wz. 33, CZ-75 Full Auto), machine pistols (Sa vz. 61, Uzi Mk.3, PM-98 i PM-84P), rifles (AKMS i AKS-74U), shotgun (Franchi SPAS-12). Two policemen died, 17 more were wounded. None of the criminals were shot, they died from house fire and structural collapse.
Later it was revealed that police was unaware of the firepower that criminals possessed, and made a few tactical mistakes.

>>32741346
I believe you meant to say hero.

>>32743116
>most are reasonably well trained and professional

most swat teams exist so police chiefs in shitsville USA can say "look ma we have one too can i haz 1033 transfers?"

>>32744268
>I ND'D SO I SHOT HIM AGAIN LOL

its still manslaughter at the least.

>>32742267
Gets hit 17 times and the armor stopped all but 3 and you call that shitty armor?

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>>32741283
Don't get cornered

>>32748856
If its anything remotely dangerous cleetus will request assistance from a bigger, better trained team.

In GA doraville SWAT was doing shit in like 3 different counties as well as executing warrants for the FBI because I guess the FBI didnt have enough dudes or something.

Plus these days of a few bubbas with guns are almost over with how much training and federal funding is being thrown at LE

>>32749931
>cleetus will request assistance from a bigger, better trained team

and lose their stats for next budget year? good one

>>32749955
They arent stupid. If they are faced with a drug den stacked with MS 13 dudes a 5 man redneck team from podunk county isnt going to want to get wiped the fuck out.

Funding will barely suffer. 1033 is practically giving shit away. If anything the fact that they needed outside assistance will secure them a bigger budget.

>>32741753
"""caught fire"""
it just keeps happening

>>32749853

Is that LL Cool J from NCIS: LA?

>>32741283

Gear up as SWAT and then nip out the back of your house and run around to join the rear of the breach team.

>>32745800
>Everybody avoids cop cars in traffic and tries extra hard not to hit or be hit by them because they'd probably be framed for reckless driving or something. Or at least are afraid that they would be.
I avoid them, but I've definitely brake-checked them in the past

>>32743385
>buy several refillable pressure tanks, compressor, and basic remote ignition system (RC cars, wire, and steel wool)
>put ignition receiver into tank
>electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen
>compress into tanks
>place in hallway behind drywall, wall up, paint over, etc
>run wires to safe rooms (bedroom and bathroom are reinforced), hidden switches
>hidden camera in hallway
>wait for swat to oper8
>throw switch when theyre in position
>600lbs of H2 O2 mixture detonates around them, tank shrapnel through the drywall
>SWAT team losing hearing, disoriented
>can't oper8
>leave house dressed as swat guy

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>>32748360
damn what a fucking g

>>32749999
>then give matilda your money

>>32741753
that's not going out like a champ

>>32744268
Why'd he even draw? prolly to try to keep them down, but two NDs on the same target? bullshit.

>>32749972
>cops
>not stupid
>cops actually confronting armed gangsters

cops only go after sleeping homeowners. if they do come up against gangsters they just wait them out.

>>32750153
Keep the hood safe h.

>>32750150
You need to remember that hydrogen literally seeps from every container you put it in, so you can have suprise fireworks before swat even thinks about raiding your house.

>>32742056
No knocks are bullshit, and as a police officer I'd likely quit before barging into a house unannounced and shooting someone's dog because he brought his tennis ball to me.

Like seriously, give me a break, the chance of being at the wrong place are WAY too high. The chance of them being ex military, or even just having firepower are way too high as well. If someone breaks in, you shoot them, ask questions later, especially if you see a firearm in their hands.
>>32748838
Police will shoot you just like you shot them. The only thing police care about more than getting the drop on you is survival. If you open fire on a no-knock raid before you fully realize it's the police, who just happened to break down your door and walk in without even screaming "It's the police!" then I can't see how you're in the wrong.

They have a right to no knock raid from a warrant they got from a judge. In getting that warrant, they understand that anyone they get the drop on may react negatively. You as a citizen have the right to protect yourself, so you do so accordingly. Who is in the wrong then? Especially if the cops end up at the wrong address, ignore this "serving in good will" bullshit because they are at the wrong fucking house, breaking in, getting shot, and then trying to say "h-HE SHOT US OMG :(".

I just hope states realize how retarded these no-knock warrants are and bans them completely. Especially in a country where literally anyone can have a gun.

>>32741303
Why dont they just yell police

>>32750556
>police lives matter
>inculpatory evidence matter more
>civilian lives don't matter at all

>>32744016
Truck drivers, loggers, fishermen, roofers, construction trades, and maintenance workers are all more likely to get killed on the job than cops.

I work facilities maintenance, I have about a 4X greater chance of being killed by my occupation than a Detroit street cop.

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>>32741303
this is how a gay porn must sound like

>>32744125
least he got a felony

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>>32741283
>be me
>vigilante
>know a place where a bunch of low life ruskies are
>Show up masked
>bust up in there
>beat the shit out of a lot of them
>go upstairs
>bout to dome this guy when SWATS come out of nowhere
>run downstairs
>shit.mov
>more SWATS
>one sees me and I unload a mad into him
>doesnt even faze him, he just backs up
>run to my delorean
>drive off
>Miami.mp3

>>32741466
Can't contain the Frein

>>32744125
im worried the murderers from New Mexico Keith Sandy and Dominique Perez are gonna get acquitted for murdering James Boyd.

>>32746534
Personally I think the police having MRAPs is dumb because Posse Comitatus is interpreted as preventing military from training cops so the cops have no idea what they're doing when they get an MRAP and usually promptly break it by driving too fast.

>>32750654
>he drives his delorean

>>32749847
Standard issue plates are supposed to stop standard 7.62x39 and lower. The fact the armor didn't stop three rounds means that the armor was worse than standard issue or the bullets were more powerful than standard 7.62x39.

>>32743620
What are you some kind of fucking white knight?
He's attacking someone from a position of authority. Fuck you and fuck him.

>>32741979
>baited into a kill zone
We Raid: Redemption now huehuehua

But from a reasonable point of view, wouldn't it be better to just run and take the fall for whatever crime you're wanted for rather than going ISIS on their asses and getting wanted for domestic terrorism and murder and whatnot in addition to the initial charges, and getting a good lawyer to play the law game?

>>32741283
Is it possible to defeat a full swat team? If you live in a WW2 bunker with a few guys who sleep in shifts and heavy weaponry + IEDs, yes.

As a lone cowboy in a house with wooden walls whose doggie gets shot at 4 am ? Hell no.

>>32751616
>not preemptively taking out the cops individually for civilian safety

whewlad

>>32751387
Do you actually know anything about body armor? What you're talking about is Level III or IV armor at least. If its a ceramic plate, there's only so much of a beating it can take before its completely useless. Stopping 17 out of 20 rifle caliber bullets would actually be really impressive for a level III or IV ceramic plate

>>32752164
It's heavy and rated to stop bullets of a certain caliber.

Was trying to explain the logic behind the assertion it was shit armor. Admittedly easy because I thought the same.

>>32744125
>>32744192
>>32744275
>conveniently forgetting the part when the drunk retard killed his wife

If you drive drunk, you deserve the death penalty.

>>32753182

you have to be 18+ to post here

>>32750715
Most of the competent SWAT guys I know think MRAPs are stupid too, they're too damn tall. But some departments can't afford a damn thing, and a MRAP is still much better than buying an old bank truck with dubious ballistic protection, which is what some poor teams get.

>>32749931
The FBI as an agency is pretty small, wouldn't surprise me that they went to local SWAT to serve warrants.

>>32748856
even if you're a podunk county you can just pool money and do a regional team with neighboring counties. it's more complicated on the administrative side but it results in a much more competent and well equipped team.

>>32750715
> Posse Comitatus is interpreted as preventing military from training cops

Then what is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6SqINK4MEE

>>32755804
Guam isn't a state. So there's probably some technical legal fuckery going on there.

US Marshalls are also federal employees, which is probably why they are able to train with the military.

Honestly I don't know, I'm not even the anon you were responding to. Just tossing out some guesses.

>>32754914
>do a regional team with neighboring counties

what actually happens is a team with even less oversight and more fuckups

there was a legal case where a multi-county swat actually claimed they were a private entity and therefore exempt from government transparency laws

>>32756027
>what actually happens is a team with even less oversight and more fuckups
you know this from what statistics?

>there was a legal case where a multi-county swat actually claimed they were a private entity and therefore exempt from government transparency laws
im starting to see a trend where you take one or two examples and run with them, thinking they're the norm across the US.

>>32756041

the lack of statistics is entirely the fault of the police who are not even required to report their activities even though most of their time is spent enforcing federal statutes

>im starting to see a trend where you take one or two examples and run with them, thinking they're the norm across the US

as opposed to assuming professionalism and competence is somehow the norm, because that is what to expect from the government, amirite?

>>32756268
>the lack of statistics is entirely the fault of the police who are not even required to report their activities even though most of their time is spent enforcing federal statutes
read: i have no stats to support my conjecture but that's the po-lice's problem, my wild-mass-guessing is totally legitimate!

>as opposed to assuming professionalism and competence is somehow the norm, because that is what to expect from the government, amirite?
read: i know my one-off examples (some of which are bullshit like the Christina Korbes case) don't mean anything but i hate the gubbermint so i'll run with them anyways

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>>32752555
Not the anon you're replying to but...

Is it possible that the bullets went into soft areas of the armor that aren't protected by a plate or even covered by the armor?

Liked the anon said, one of them went into his hand. Possible it went into other areas too.

>>32741346

This image sticks with me because I learned about it from looking at a stack of newspaper in the cleaning we used for cleaning windows in boot camp. I was like "WTF is going on while I am in here.".

>>32756370
>read: i have no stats to support my conjecture but that's the po-lice's problem, my wild-mass-guessing is totally legitimate!

in actuality: government obfuscation means individual cases of swat malfeasance cannot be passed off as isolated incidents and/or bad actors, especially in light of wholesale police opposition to civilian oversight and review

>read: i know my one-off examples (some of which are bullshit like the Christina Korbes case) don't mean anything but i hate the gubbermint so i'll run with them anyways

see above, also the legal erosion of swat deployment standards is well documented and you would be hard-pressed to claim that only a few cops seek to take full advantage of this legal laxity.

>>32746822
They need to use one of these with the bee juice. Then the back opens up and dumps millions of African bees out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XXAPXRjMSg

>>32749794
I believe you meant to say an hero.
FTFY

>government obfuscation means individual cases of swat malfeasance cannot be passed off as isolated incidents and/or bad actors, especially in light of wholesale police opposition to civilian oversight and review
>thinking thousands of municipal police departments are some kind of monolithic shadow government
>thinking that releasing additional information wouldn't just generate additional lawsuits and create more liability issues
for example a lot of SWAT team specifically don't use body cams because the footage is subject to FOIA and that creates a bizarre situation where people can sue to see the footage, then the person who they served the warrant on sues because of violation of privacy.

> legal erosion of swat deployment standards is well documented
what do you even mean? there's nothing magical about the original purpose of SWAT. there's not even a consensus on the original purpose of SWAT teams to begin with. PPD's original SWAT team was specifically supposed to deal with bank robbers. LAPD SWAT was originally envisioned as a riot control team.

there's also very little legal precedent saying when it is and isn't appropriate to deploy a SWAT team. their actions (knock and announce vs no-knock, entry without warrant, use of force, etc) come up often in court but there's not much saying when a PD can and can't deploy swat to a scene.

>>32741466
>Eric frien eluded PA state police teams for more than a month.
Man, that's nothing.

Shitposters can show you how it's done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Naden

>>32756666
>then the person who they served the warrant on sues because of violation of privacy

can you actually document one case of a PD being sued for this?

seems more likely the cops are sabotaging the cameras: http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/28/chicago-police-to-speed-up-body-camera-a

>what do you even mean? there's nothing magical about the original purpose of SWAT.
>magical

who said magical? there was a fairly strict standard, which no longer exists. it is not hard to understand.

>there's also very little legal precedent saying when it is and isn't appropriate to deploy a SWAT team

your statement demonstrates you know little of the history of the drug war and the parallel rise of swat.

one judge in the late 70's (in the first wave of the drug war before use of SWAT was fully codified) called what ended up being today's legal situation as a get-out-of-jail-free card for perjury, as in, cops can simply make up something to justify swat deployment.

>>32756855
not a swat team but: http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/08/14/washington-man-threatening-to-sue-police-for-posting-embarrassing-body-cam-video-of-drunken-antics/

and anyways think about it. the police department's footage is considered public record in a lot of states. now when the SWAT team comes to serve a search warrant they have to clear the entire structure first cause they don't want a guy hiding in a closet to shoot the detectives when they come in. but the warrant may only be good for one room, so now there's some legal issues surrounding the body cam footage of officers who entered other rooms during the initial clearing process. even if the dept deletes the footage from those officers there are some questions raised about how that footage could have influenced an investigation.

>there was a fairly strict standard, which no longer exists. it is not hard to understand.
complete fucking bullshit. you're telling me all the agencies on opposite coasts of the US, with wildly different initial taskings for SWAT, all had a unified policy for SWAT team deployment? you clearly know nothing of SWAT history except what you read in the Balko books. Balko is a smart guy but he is not above sensationalizing an issue to make money.

>use of SWAT was fully codified
oh okay, tell me what the courts say are the minimum requirements to deploy a SWAT team
oh wait, there is no such thing as a fucking national consensus. there are rulings on whether or not a swat team can enter a building without warrant in different situations, and about no-knocks, and other stuff but whether or not you can park the SWAT van outside the house is pretty hard to pin down legally speaking. and it's pretty hard to dispute on a legal basis that you can use a SWAT team to serve warrants

>>32751396
>being this edgy
You must be +18 to post here.

>>32757141
>threatening to sue

that's not even an actual lawsuit, never mind a legal victory, or a legal precedent for cops to be sued for violating privacy via bodycam.

>complete fucking bullshit. you're telling me all the agencies on opposite coasts of the US, with wildly different initial taskings for SWAT, all had a unified policy for SWAT team deployment?

back when SWAT was a nascent idea, the rules for SWAT deployment were based off existing federal guidelines for constitutionally sound policing. i guarantee you balko has a much better understanding of the legal issues of swat than you ever will.

>tell me what the courts say are the minimum requirements to deploy a SWAT team

today? there are basically none, the PD merely requires a pliant judge and a made-up reason (again, what used to be called perjury).

>>32757319
>back when SWAT was a nascent idea, the rules for SWAT deployment were based off existing federal guidelines for constitutionally sound policing.
not even bothering to talk about a specific department, as if the idea of SWAT simultaneously appeared in the minds of police chiefs around the country. complete fucking bullshit again. did Daryl Gates make a constitutionally sound threat matrix wrt to deploying to riots?

>today? there are basically none, the PD merely requires a pliant judge and a made-up reason (again, what used to be called perjury).
>not knowing the difference between sending the team to respond to an incident and sending the team to serve a warrant
pro-tip: if the team deploys to an active-shooter situation they don't need any kind of warrant

>>32741753
Oregon?

>>32741283
Fucking know nothings. Look how the bunker man is holding his gun, the slide would hit the shield and cause a malfunction. You're supposed to stay holstered while the guy behind you in the stack is your lethal.

Some SWAT teams are a joke, generally the small town/sheriff ones. They simply can't afford enough training, don't know how they got all that gear though.

>>32757419
>not even bothering to talk about a specific department

relevant how? does the law distinguish between individual departments?

>riots

irrelevant since the topic at hand is the use of swat in search warrants, not riots.

>pro-tip: if the team deploys to an active-shooter situation they don't need any kind of warrant

irrelevant since nobody is talking about active shooter situations

moving the goalposts cannot hide your obvious ignorance.

>>32757604
he clearly has enough standoff to fire without inducing a malfunction. as for "You're supposed to stay holstered while the guy behind you in the stack is your lethal" every place teaches something different when it comes to shield tactics so making blanket statements like that just suggests you've been to one or 0 schools. go take 5 different shield classes and you'll hear 5 different takes on how to use the shield

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>>32753182

>>32757667
>relevant how? does the law distinguish between individual departments?
the law was never fucking clear as to when SWAT specifically could be used to serve warrants. all the case-law was related to regular uniformed officers. the whole point of SWAT initially in the few departments that first had teams had nothing to do with warrant service anyways. you're completely bullshitting here, starting to sound like you didn't even really read the balko books

>riots
>irrelevant since the topic at hand is the use of swat in search warrants, not riots.
>not knowing that Daryl Gates and LAPD SWAT was initially formed as a response to rioting and designed to counter rioting.
your so-called "rules for SWAT deployment based off existing federal guidelines" never fucking existed in the context of warrant service

>irrelevant since nobody is talking about active shooter situations

>moving the goalposts cannot hide your obvious ignorance.

>not knowing that you can deploy a team without fucking serving a warrant
you're the guy who brought up "SWAT deployment standards" in >>32756500. if you want to talk warrants talk warrants, not all SWAT deployments are warrant service.

you clearly have never even spoken to a guy on a team. you heard about the balko books and read some alternet articles and think you're an expert in policing. you sound like one of those retards who think the police should just send their robot in against barricaded suspects to put the cuffs on a guy.

>>32745302
>>32744016

Hi. Guy that posted those stats. I wanted to highlight violence against cops with that statistic. However, less than half of cops killed on the job are killed by gunfire.
http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2016

>>32746158
kek

>>32748904
kek

>>32756027
kek

>>32757760
>the law was never fucking clear as to when SWAT specifically could be used to serve warrants

it absolutely was because swat was considered regular cops before drug war jurisprudence gave them special powers, which PD's then used even for non-drug related deployments.

>read the balko books

have you, or any other books or legal analyses of this issue?

>rules for SWAT deployment based off existing federal guidelines

historically, that would be guidelines for *all* cops.

>you're the guy who brought up "SWAT deployment standards

try reading the posts preceding that one in which the one and only issue discussed was drug warrants and searches, not riots, not active shooters.

>you clearly have never even spoken to a guy on a team

topkek, because cops are renowned legal scholars.

>expert in policing

ftfy: legal issues regarding policing. and it's all relative, but what is obvious is that you know all of jack shit about the legal debate.

>>32757828
>historically, that would be guidelines for *all* cops.
i know, I was quoting you, buddy. If you actually understood the legal issues I would have expected you to state that clearly from the get-go instead of having to fill it in now.

>topkek, because cops are renowned legal scholars.
It's obvious you don't actually know how teams conduct business except the cherrypicked examples the ACLU and guys like Balko and Krasko like to feed you. Like your generalizations about regional/joint teams, for example. You just sit there without any stats to support your conjecture, refuse to actually engage with police officers to understand what they're doing and get a fuller picture, and then complain their departments aren't willing to disclose statistics.

>ftfy: legal issues regarding policing. and it's all relative, but what is obvious is that you know all of jack shit about the legal debate.
Hahahhah oh god an expert in legal issues regarding policing is here. This is a guy who thinks the reason so many SWAT teams don't issue cameras is because they're constantly sabotaging cameras, and that there are no privacy issues around wearing body cameras (shooting public domain footage) into structures when your search warrant only covers certain rooms.

>>32757986
>I would have expected you to state that clearly from the get-go instead of having to fill it in now.

it is amusing that you actually think this needs to be spelled out as if it were an important point. but then you neglected to state this point yourself until i addressed your moronic statement on how federal legal guidelines "never fucking existed", as if SWAT existed in a legal vacuum or somesuch.

so you fail either way.

>It's obvious you don't actually know how teams conduct business except the cherrypicked examples the ACLU and guys like Balko and Krasko like to feed you

Well yes, today's legal criticism of policing typically revolves around finding cases of abuse deemed allowable by a pliant judiciary and legislature. Guilty as charged. But feel free to explain how that criticism is somehow illegitimate.

>You just sit there without any stats to support your conjecture
>refuse to actually engage with police officers to understand what they're doing and get a fuller picture, and then complain their departments aren't willing to disclose statistics.

Already addressed, and really, deliberate obfuscation by ostensibly public servants is not a point in your favor.

>This is a guy who thinks the reason so many SWAT teams don't issue cameras is because they're constantly sabotaging cameras

I posited camera sabotage as a possible reason, never did I state that was *the* reason. Then I provided a link documenting police sabotage of cameras. On the other hand, your claim of privacy issues was "backed" by a single article about a threatened lawsuit that panned out to absolutely nothing of legal consequence.

So yeah, I'd say I have a better grasp of the topic than you.

>>32745763
Aren't cop cars built a lot heavier than most? I'm sure when you're in an accident, whoever has the chunkier car is going be taking less of the impact than the other.

>>32741283
Yep

>Be 2008, about 21 at the time
>Training with forest park police dpt. Will co sheriffs. FP Swat @ Asylum (abandoned mental hospital )
>Training : Room and hallway tactics
>Briefing
>Lead explains how to move down corridors, check rooms, hallway positioning
>About a hour or so of that passes
>Ok, lets run some drills...
>Cops vs robbers w/ Simmunition
>Scenario : 150Ft hallway, 6x6 rooms spaced cross section from each other about doorways 10 ft apart down hallway
> One person would go hide somewhere in the hallway and the SWAT team would then clear the entire hallway
> Few go, Many fail. One does okay, gets 2 of the 4
> My turn, Load ar head about 1/3 way down hallway duck in a corner and tuck against wall
> Horn, game is now on.
> Swat team uses 1 point man, 2 at sides looking into rooms and 1 at the 6 watching backwards making a + that moves down the hall
> Criticized them early on in training that there where issues and holes with this movement.
> Moved a peice of broken glass so i could see around the wall and out the door.
> Boots approach. Wait for my moment.
> Side pointman gun is now just cresting the door so its flagged on the wall.
> Turn corner, and take him in helmet
> Rear point trys to turn but its too far a movement and sideman should have covered that door
> Take him in the helmet
> Dumping rounds as moving from door to hallway
> Side guy lights me the fuck up after the fact hes totally dead and out.
> Horn.
> Do after game inspections
> chalk on my chest, neck, arm on me multiple shots
> Sideman tagged square side of head
> rear tagged square on the side of head / mask / neck
> Front caught 1 in the head and 1 in the back of neck
> farside caught 2 in neck and 1 on shoulder
> Argured the fact was sideman got shot square in the head and was dead, and shouldnt have fired
> "Yeah well its a reinforced helmet "
> "Alright so that 5.56 AP round only gave you shell shock and maybe even knocked you unconscious"

>>32758142

> Argured the fact that i was still able to get mutilple of them BEFORE being fired upon by a "dead player".
> Argued the fact that the 11, 2, 4, 7 postition are totally vunerable to trasnisons
> Sideguard was visiably butthurt that he let his squad down
> Lead comes out and says while sideguard was infact out , its no garauntee of a kill.
> Says that if it was not just a drill, some of them wouldnt be going home that night
> Explains inherit risk to us with doing these hallway / starewall movements
> Day continues as normal

Its serisoly strange just how OK swat is with being shot a few times to accomplish an objective.
Like its accepted that you will get shot / shotat on clearing a house. And yeah its in the line of work, but
i mean fuck. Why not adjust your tactics a little bit.

>>32758119
>Aren't cop cars built a lot heavier than most?
They have all the safety options obviously. Otherwise, I believe that they're just high-end cars with some of them being tweaked for performance (highway interceptors etc).

>>32758089
>it is amusing that you actually think this needs to be spelled out as if it were an important point. but then you neglected to state this point yourself until i addressed your moronic statement on how federal legal guidelines "never fucking existed", as if SWAT existed in a legal vacuum or somesuch.

you repeatedly referred to "swat deployment standards", mentioned a time "before use of SWAT was fully codified", and wrote "back when SWAT was a nascent idea, the rules for SWAT deployment were based off existing federal guidelines for constitutionally sound policing"

Any honest reading of your words will show you didn't understand the concept that legal precedents WRT to uniformed officers applied to SWAT until you googled it an hour ago.

>Well yes, today's legal criticism of policing typically revolves around finding cases of abuse deemed allowable by a pliant judiciary and legislature. Guilty as charged. But feel free to explain how that criticism is somehow illegitimate.
You're literally not even reading what I'm writing anymore. It's obvious to any outside observer that you're only taking in the information about policing that supports your preconceived notions.

>I posited camera sabotage as a possible reason
then you're retarded. this is just another clue that you don't understand the dynamics of a police dept outside of what you read from Balko. No chief who knows his SWAT team is going to sabotage cameras is going to decide not to give them body cams for that reason. if anything, a chief that knew sabotage was going to happen would force cameras on the team and then hammer them anytime anything went wrong with them.

>Then I provided a link documenting police sabotage of cameras.
Uniformed patrol officers. Funny enough you whined that my example was about patrol cops and not SWAT, then did the exact same thing yourself.

>>32758142
sounds like bullshit but ok

any reputable sims training forces the officers to fight through "injuries", even ones that would have been fatal in real life. good guys never die in sims, no matter how much it hurts to get lit up. part of the point is stress inoculation and teaching yourself to fight through pain and not give up when shot.

Are there any anti swat tactics or books/pdfs to read?

>>32750556
That's why I love the state of KY.

>The presumption set forth in subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:
>(d)
The person against whom the defensive force is used is a peace officer, as
defined in KRS 446.010, who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling,
residence, or vehicle in the pe
rformance of his or her official duties, and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or
the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person
entering or attempting to enter was a peace officer.

>>32758231

Yeah, thats basically what they wanted the guys to understand while running these. Still; still i told em i fucked them up good tho

Not b.s tho, i also have a few other stories from training. A couple with air marshals , Car to Car engagements , Site security just to name a few. That swat one always stuck out to me tho; in everything else i have done... people usually avoided getting shot or took actions to prevent it.
Not them tho, it was like they felt invincible with body armor on. Granted this was before the hardcore militarization of police forces, so i know most of them where true LEO's and not ex-mil turned LEO. I think that played a part in it

>>32758252
how many guys are there who have successfully fought a swat team, lived, and then been in a position to write a damn book? anyone writing that stuff has never done it before, it's all walter mitty bullshit like most of the spy tradecraft books

>>32758291
>been in a position to write a damn book
Got to do something in your 10x20 year sentences.

That's assuming you're caught alive six months later in a seedy motel and somehow don't die resisting arrest.

>>32758352
pretty sure there are laws preventing you from profiting from the book so i doubt anyone would bother

>>32745040
A light hammer spring is only going to matter if you shoot someone and claim it was an accident due to the trigger malfunctioning. Trigger weight/jobs/springs literally doesn't matter in a self defense case.

>>32751387
You are fucking retarded holy shit.
Plates aren't fucking invincible. There is a point where they stop working. Jesus christ.

>>32750623
>literally yelling SHERIFF DEPARTMENT SEARCH WARRANT as they breach
>why don't they announce themselves?
Don't breed.

>>32758395
>Can't read reply chains
>Calls others retarded

>>32751399
>wouldn't it be better to just run and take the fall for whatever crime you're wanted for rather than going ISIS on their asses and getting wanted for domestic terrorism and murder and whatnot in addition to the initial charges
If the people fighting SWAT teams were reasonable and intelligent enough to do that then they wouldn't have a SWAT team after them.

>>32758369
>pretty sure there are laws preventing you from profiting from the book so i doubt anyone would bother
Only if the book itself is a result of the crime.

A general book on tactics would not necessarily be.

You'd have to fight the government long and hard though, they don't like that sort of thing.

>>32751396
>attacking someone from a position of authority
As if there's any other position to be in when attacking someone.

>>32744515
Who is this semen demon?

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>>32746822
>create pheromones to control these hell spawn.
>go zerg on the galaxy.

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>>32743772
Fuck off nigger. You are the reason we need guns. You are the reasons Police is trained to shoot first/ask questions later.

>>32758548
>bees work as a weapon
They are week to air element

A single gas or smoke grenade and the swarm drops or disperses.

>>32758151

Hmm.

SWAT roomclearing vs Military roomclearing, discuss

(if there's a difference I will be surprised)

>>32758548

serious discussion about SWAT and roomclearing
and then also a small subplot about killer bees

never change, /k/

>>32748360
>I had a great uncle that hid in a pile of manure until they gave up and left his property.
Yeah, would throw off the scent a bit if they had dogs too. Shit ain't gunna kill you, but 556 will

>>32756688
Naden was a pretty scary motherfucker, I grew up near the Nowendoc region, have a farm 60km east of it and spent a lot of my formative years chasing pigs and roos through the region. Its fucking tough country with lots of mountains, deep gorges, tiger snakes and gets really damn cold during winter.
Coppers would have worked for their money

>>32758467
Poppy

>>32744268
because he was just in a high speed chase with a public danger that happened to be drunk and putting lots of people at risk and clearly wasn't going to surrender easily or he would of pulled over before he crashed.
>>32750223
>Why'd he even draw?
because the guy was fucking dangerous, how many people you think a drunk speeding around driving erratic could of killed if they were driving around that night. it's totally possible to accidentally bump fire a handgun a nd could of spooked him into a second nd

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>>32758672
I don't care how well a SWAT team is trained. They're going turn into little girls the moment they raid a house full of killer bees.

Don't fuck with mad bee keepers.

>>32742092

Oakland resident here

Can confirm Black Liars Murder niggers still idolize him a decade later.

>>32754128
Then why are you posting?

>>32742056
You're fucked, you can't win
You're best hope is to break line of sight, drop your gun and scream as much shit as you can at the top of your voice stating your intent, all the while hitting the deck
That's how you ''''''''''''might'''''''''' survive

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>>32745040

>>32746284
Found the police officer he "killed"

>>32744016

firefighters go into much more unstable situations, and are more dependent on chain of command. though really it depends on where you're stationed. if you work in new york city, yeah you're fucked.

>>32742056

If you even have anything in your hand, or if they just say you do, they're going to kill you and face no charges. However, if you kill all of them, and pretend that you didn't know they were cops, there's a remote chance you could get off. If you do, it's best to leave the country before they retaliate. In many parts of the US, they act like a gang. That's why one guy in Texas got off for confusing their behavior for that of a gang.

>>32759336

Bad idea. Local news will say he was screaming uncontrollably and brandishing a weapon. Best idea is to 360 noscope them all then fight the validity of the raid in court.

>>32758791
Yeah nah fuck you. Those were not the actions of someone who was "spooked". The officer was calm and collected. I'm not even one of those edgy "fuck cops" kids that makes their way in here but goddamn you are a giant bootlicker

>>32758791

>Two ND's, one after calmly taking his time to aim
>"it's totally possible to accidentally bump fire a handgun a nd could of spooked him into a second nd"

What a fucking bootlicking cuck. Try that on a jury.

>>32741303

>can't return fire because the shooter's family is inside

Since when has this stopped them? They flashbang infants in cribs, shoot dogs and kill innocent people in the wrong house on no-knocks anyway, so I'm afraid in this case it was simply shock that they were actually walking into gunfire instead of dropping every unarmed motherfucker in the room and calling it a good day.

>>32741283
>Has anyone at least survived/gotten away from them?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis

>>32754128
>>32757721
>Salty alcoholics

>>32741283
why is jon bernthal third from pointman?

>>32749981
Underrated post
Remember Waco

>>32745699
>Oh hey this sounds crazy, let's read this article.
>Oh, those perps, that story, this'll be like LA or something
>It's in my fucking area code

Jesus Christ I cannot wait to move into a cabin far, far away from any other people at this point.

>>32746822

>everyone starts carrying dead-on-contact wasp spray with 30 ft range

This plan will only work on third-worlders.