who is the toughest and why? >average MARSOC >average

>>32716150
The only military unit where being tough matters is border guard at JSA in Panmunjom.

>>32716150
>MARSOC
amateurs who think they are hot shit because they get to sit in the same room with the best, despite sitting at the back.

>>32716150
I don't know who it is, but it's definitely not the Marines.

>>32716150
Delta


MARSOC us pretty much just Army Special Forces in the Marine Corps if you look at Thier current mission set. SEALS just suck.

>>32716150
THE Unit is without a doubt comprised of the most experienced, most seasoned and most well trained dudes our nation has to offer in combat arms.

After them my vote goes to USAF STS folks. The Combat Controllers I worked with over the years were some of the most well rounded, intelligent and capable folks I've been around.

Army SF are some very intelligent, mature and squared away folks as well, but the mission they fulfill is very different from most. They are some very unique dudes.

SEALs and MARSOC are hard-charging warriors, but from my working with them they have a lot of gaps and leave quite a bit to be desired. If they were to disappear the Army could pick up the slack (though they would have to increase their numbers in certain areas to make up for the loss in seaborne capabilities).

That's coming from an intel dude's perspective who spent all his time in the TOC. All of them are much more capable shooters and warriors than I will ever be, but the Army is king of the hill with operational capabilities.

As far as pure toughness...they're all on another level. The pipelines they endure are nothing less than insane. Hell when I was in you would have to put the Ranger Regiment near the top of the dog pile. For every op I oversaw SEALs, The Unit, MARSOC or others on we'd have Rangers out on 10. Those guys went hard, around the clock with 0 quit. They weren't baby shit ops either, those guys were neck deep in it all the fucking time.

Oh boy another DA TOUGHEST thread.

Without fail the hooahs who are rotting away in their barracks rooms on fort bragg are already here shitting on the muhreens I see.

Now we just need the people to start talking shit about delta and devgru, arguing about things they saw in youtube videos.
Mods really need to crack down on these pointless threads.

>>32716636
No one needs to shit on them, they do a fine job of that themselves.

If we're talking about toughness, it's a retarded conversation. They're all hard men with more guts than 99% of us.

If we're talking about capabilities and results, there's plenty to talk about.

Unlike the SEALs, MARSOC is getting better with age though. Since consolidating they are getting better by the day and their command is pretty squared away. The SEALs are a fucking shit show and started unraveling ~2005-2006. Still capable dudes, but their command has been plagued by fucktards which bleeds down to the bottom. I've watched overhead feeds of more SEAL clusterfucks than I ever care to, not to mention their questionable ethics and absolutely abysmal personality issues as of late. They have become the sloppy fucks of JSOC.

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>>32716150
Until it was disbanded in 1993... Everything equivalent is the best you can find obviously, It certainly exists in many countries. Something à la Jason Bourne you know.

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>muh delta
>muh seals
>muh-fucking-reens
ISA is toughest. Everything from standards to training to operational purview makes Delta look like boy scouts. Muhreens aren't even on the same scale.

>>32716845
International Studies Association? What do they have for weapons? Pencils?

My vote is for D boys, as SEALS mimic what the D boys do. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

>>32716869
The fuckmothering Activity you fat nerd. Modern MACV-SOG.

>>32716845

ISA are pussies, you dumb anime virgin faggot

>>32716150
>Average MARSOC
Better than many, but more closely related to an Army Ranger
>Average Delta
They're Tier One, the best of the best, like DEVGRU and CIA SAD SOG. Obviously that means they're pretty tough
>average SEAL
Tougher than you :^)

>>32716845
>cell phone snipers
>tough

>>32716892
>Modern MACV-SOG.
but it's not you retard

>>32716935
>tier one
>SAD SOG
Video games and youtube do not equate to competence. Just stop typing for fuck's sake.

>>32716892
>MACV-SOG
You must be retarded. MACV-SOG was equivalent to JSOC if anything. A large number of units, SMUs and forces operated under that banner.

>>32716845
>Kykes thinking they are the best at everything
Legitimately and unironically shocking.

>kid kid kid kid kid
>call of duty
>youtube
>kid kid kid kid
>fat nerd virgins
>kid kid kid
>medal of honor
>kid kid
>history channel
>kid kid kid kid

I just summed up this and every single one of these threads for all eternity. Nobody with the insight and experience required to chime in on any SOC units is going to post in a dumb fucking meta thread like this.

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>>32716908
>>32716956
>>32716958
>>32717260

>>32716150
>average MARSOC
>average Delta
>average SEAL

That isn't a fair comparison

"average SEAL" isn't a 'tier 1' assett (although by a broad definition, the layman might consider them such, and they are SOF.

A better comparison would be

>Average Army SF (Green Beret)
>Average (Force) Recon Marine
>Average SEAL

Or Alternatively

>"Average" NSWDG/DEVGRU
>"Average" SFOD-D/Delta
>"Average" MARSOC / (Marine) Critical Skills Operator

But they are all elite, and you don't get to be in their position without (ANY of these positions) without having the necessary skills, knowledge, physique, and determination about all else.

And for the later ~"tier 1" (ideally) the wisdom, and that super rare among homo-sapiens kind of next level determination.

>>32717544
MARSOC is definitely not on the level of either SMU. They're comparable to Army SF and vanilla SEALs.

>>32717260
>CIA SOG actively recruits from Delta and DEVGRU
>hurr yur rong kiddo
Sorry about your dishonorable discharge

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>>32717260
>He thinks the ISA is Israeli
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, please fuck off.

>>32717588
the job role may appear to be more similar to "Vanilla SEALs".

But the point being illustrated was supposed to be that each group represents the highest level of their organisations SOF/SF.

Though with that being said, they are underrated, most people on this board can't comprehend half the stuff they accept as common knowledge.

But typically the initial training and reinforcement cycle of a SEAL is of a substantial amount, so ' vanilla' SEALs do compare favourably to most high level SOF both internationally and locally.

That being said, Don't underestimate the Marine Corps' SOF, it isn't like half the training courses they do aren't the same ones as the other branches anyway. Most USA SOF training is quite comparable.
They all want to be the best branch, and they have most of the same training resources

>>32716594
This

>>32718259
They need to earn that reputation first.

Its not like Marines haven't been in tier 1 units before, but generally they've jumped organizations a bit to like CIA SAD or MACVSOG

>>32717552
that guy with the moostash looks like ned fladers

prepare your diddle holes lol

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>>32716150
>my favorite special force > your favorite special force

How the fuck do you even compre special forces? Amounts of kills? Operations? Most covert operations? Most long range recon mission? Most houses entered?

Just fucking manchildren who think their Special Force is the best because muh camo, and muh guns, and muh eating snake blood, etc.

Here's a checklist to see if your SOF is good
>are they well trained for most scenarios?
>are their indentities kept secret?
>are their missions kept secret?
>Have they had any major fuck ups in the last 10-20 years?

If your answers where YYYN, then your SOF is most likely a good SOF, and you can continue to jerk off to the pics you find of them and their gear. Chances are, your SOF is doing a good job, and they don't need your to stand up for them on a mongolian art board. Chances are they also co-operate with the "rival SOF" you believe they are better than.

SOF's are not looking for cool guy points(except for maybe SEALs). There is no way to know that one SOF is better than another, especially considering a lot of them focus on different types of warfare.

>>32716150
I always found it odd that SEALS allow people with no prior military experience to attempt selection, even the fittest and most motivated people can find that military life is not for them. You never know if it really suits you until you get to your first unit, at least thats how it was for most people I served with.

>>32717552
Are these guys CAG?

>>32718936
Yes

Seal Team Six is a meme
>ooh they killed Bin Laden, ooh they are so awesome
its just a Fox News meme, they are just navy swabbys with guns, big wow

>>32718936
they dont look like geographers

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>>32716845

>>32716594
You ever work with TACPs? I have a buddy who used to be one. He insinuated that he was assigned to a special operations group, but I don't know if I believe him.

>>32716150
PMCs.
military SFs are literally just stepping stones.

>>32716956
>i watched generatio kill
>muh true war name

Get stuffed you edgy cunt

>this thread

its fucking PJ's

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how can anyone even debate this anymore, Delta obviously.

>muh Activity

That's where fucked up ex-Delta dudes with non-functional joints go when they retire.

What does ISA even do

>>32716150
Navy here. Mrsoc. Sels have no infantry experience. They go from basic training stright too seals. Opertion redwings. Rangers nd marines saved that coward Luttrell.

>>32723923
Humint. They just go into an area and discreetly ask around the locals if they've seen any baddies. Its more about watching and taking notes than "being tough", hence why CAG and NSW guys retire there when their joints start to give out.

>>32718827
amen

>>32716594
reading military jargon is hilarious

>>32716449
are they still allowed in the room
marines are naval infantry under the navy
navy's best naval infantry certainly arent marines

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>>32716150

russians btfo all these guys

>>32725055
>muh knife gun

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>>32725068

VSS is hands down best operating gun, with no competitors

Prove me wrong

> marsoc

LOL, aren't these the guys that went to one of these international SOF "competitions" in Jordan or something, brought a woman because they're progressive, and came dead last?

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>>32725084
>tfw progressives are making our military a laughing stock

>>32725118
It's the marines.
It wasn't progressives that make them a laughing stock

>>32725055
No, they don't. Maybe 50 years ago they might have

After the fall of the Soviet Union, under Yeltsin all their best SF units got the chop for some reason and haven't really recovered

Alpha group, their 'best guys' are no where near western SF. In fact western SF trains them

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>>32725155

that's a great opinion you got there, buddy

when russian PD wins SOF competitions leaving the fucking US marines behind, I doubt Russian SOF is THAT shit, compared to western counterparts

>>32725135
They're retarded but it was never a good idea to say that to their faces before.

>>32725155
Doesn't Vympel receive the harshest training out of all SOF units worldwide?

>>32725155
Common joke, Russia is shit now, Soviet Union is better.

But that's actually wrong, modern russian army is actually professional, unlike the Red Army.

>>32725155

> the west trains Alfa Group

LMAO

Should be fucking Alfa Group training the rest of the world if anything, name another HRT that had to deal with the situations they've had.

> 700+ hostages in moscow theatre/ 1100+ in beslan
> 40+ jihadis with suicide vests and automatic weapons both times

The fact they managed to get 2/3 of the hostages out both times is fucking amazing, when the closest thing that comes to mind for a comparison was that time the fucking SAS lost hostages to FIVE (5) terrorists.

>>32725177
Not abymore, Vympel was one of the units that got the chop in the 90's has only recently recovered

>>32725268
Spetznaz weren't even huge during the Soviet era as compared to now.

The modern russia regime practically builds up the myth of these guys while the SU hid them.

>>32717588
This. MARSOC isn't bad, but it's not high tier either.

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CIA SAD/SOG are bar none the best

Can't say the same for the organization they work for...

>>32725330
What's the last great job they did again?

Because they failed miserably in Syria.

>>32725207
>belsan massacre

russian 'special forces' murder 350+ civilians including over 100+ children

LOL

>SAS

you can start here if you want
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_SAS_operations

but you've probably already passed out from all the heroin and vodka. So maybe read it (if) you wake up vatnik

>>32725338

Blame Obongloid

>>32725356
No, he's right.

None of the SAS operation come close to Belsan scale.

>>32725356
Not that guy, but hes right. Russian HRT got a ~65% survival rate in both situations. SAS (or any other western SF) have never and hopefully will never have to deal with a situation involving a thousand hostages and a unit sized group of hardened heavily armed terrorists, as there's little basis to suggest they could cope.

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>>32725268

> recently recovered

Alright, so you've finally backpedalled there, good boy.

That's exactly the point, they've recovered and are looking good.

When Russian POLICE show off in international SOF bootcamps, it's pretty fucking stupid to imply that Russian SOF is anything but top-tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV6Ml3KqQmA

>>32725389

the way the UK is going, I'd wager they're about to deal with some islam-related problems real soon

won't be the same as a horde of battle-hardened chechens, but still

>>32725440
It's going to be similar to the massacre in Belgium and the US.

100% casualties, no SF or cop intervening in time.

>>32725457

Well we saw what happened in Bataclan already. No SOF, coppers getting shot up, and hostages all lit up.

No memes about the shit western police tho, that made me think

>>32725475

And Bataclan was what, a couple jihadis?

>>32725430
>When Russian POLICE show off in international SOF bootcamps, it's pretty fucking stupid to imply that Russian SOF is anything but top-tier.
doesn't really mean anything that they're cops. federal russian police don't have anywhere near the funding problems you see in us podunk police departments

>>32725507

> russian police doesn't have funding problems

can you pick one damage control route and stick with it

either the russians are poor slavshits, or their police are superheroes with all the gear they could want

and I doubt MARSOC qualifies as a "podunk police department"

>>32725507
Come on, Russia is poor as fucking fuck.

They are all issued hand me down AK74, no fancy shit.

>>32725525

as if there's anything wrong with AK74s

rifle is fine, newshit

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>>32725525

> helo this is boris with hand-me-down AK, pls no allahu akbar :^)

>>32717552
ALL THE FUCKING HANDS IN POCKET

>>32725585
Literally an AK74 with some rails and suppressor, anon.

>>32716150
>all get killed by untrained africans on a daily basis
Yeah none of them are. You see blackhawk down?
Fucking got rekt

>>32725330
How are they any different from CAG or DEVGRU?

itt people who have no fucking clue what theyre talking about

>>32726306
This

>>32717282
bbbbbut i want to dress like an operator!

Why do people argue about shit like this ?

it's like arguing about the best car or the best gun or the best programming language

different tools for different jobs

>>32725084
Annual Warrior Competition

The thing is a joke, USA hardly shows up, one year the only US team was literally a county sheriff's SWAT team. Force Recon won the second year, then stopped showing up.

>>32725389
>>32725372
>Russian SF start firing RPGs, incendiary rockets and flamethrowers at the buildings while the negotiations are going on, without giving warning to the police or negotiators, killing mostly hostages
>tanks rolls in and start firing indiscriminately at buildings
>50% of hostage corpses had severe burns on their skin suggesting that they had burned to death from Russian flamethrowers
>90% of hostages survivors have burns
>Russia FSB remove roadblocks to the area so civilians wandering around nearby to see what's going on are instantly killed or wounded
>Russians manage to kill civilians in nearby houses (somehow)
>hostages, journalists and civilians eyewitnesses say Russian forces fired indiscriminately killing scores of hostages, some reports suggesting up to 80%. intervention was described as 'carnage'
>emergency services are not alerted or prepared during the siege which caused further deaths of people in critical condition
>parents do not know for months whether their children are alive or dead or in hospital
>human remains found in landfill site in Belsan two months after, with identity documents. remains were of dead hostages
>surviving perpetrator goes missing, journalists covering the events go are arrested and some are still missing, organisations suing the government or questioning the siege go missing, arrested and are declared terrorist organisations

They guys really know what they're doing, they should definitely train our SF

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>>32723869
>That's where fucked up ex-Delta dudes with non-functional joints go when they retire.
No, that's SAD. Pic related is some of the things ISA does.

>>32726917

Delta Force drone striked hostages when storming an ISIS prison only a couple years ago, do tell me the difference

>>32726917

> russian flamethrowers

jesus, which asshurt opinion-piece is this from?

>>32725525
maybe for a lot of units but not the ones they send to KASOTC for the competitions

>>32725524
im not even the guy you were arguing with earlier, you retard

the russians they send to the warrior comp are obviously not impoverished. a lot of american PDs would kill to be equipped on that level, because russian federal police are basically treated like SOF

marsoc has shown up to the competition like once and force recon has also been like twice. other years it's random county swat teams

>>32726960
>citation needed

also
>delta flies the helicopters
>delta flies the drones
>etc

>>32727055

It was the famous prison raid from a couple years ago where Delta lost an operative, you can look it up yourself.

And if Delta were the ones leading the attack, you can safely assume it was their call to call in the drone strike.

>>32727092
On 22 October 2015, a U.S. Master Sergeant, Joshua L. Wheeler, was shot dead when he, with about 30 other U.S. special operations soldiers and a peshmerga unit, conducted a prison break near Hawija, in which about 70 hostages were rescued, five ISIL members were captured and "a number" were killed or wounded.[103] The Kurdistan Regional Government said after the raid that none of the 15 prisoners it was intended to rescue were found.

>>32727092
i can't find a single thing suggesting they had a drone strike or that hostages were killed

if anything most outlets reported that no hostages were killed

>>32727150

> no number of original hostages
> 15 prisoners that were "looked for" weren't "found"
> ONLY 5 guards

ahahaaaa, classic declassfied fatnik mission report, you guys drone striked at least 100 hostages there ez

>>32727181
except they brought out 70 iraqi hostages, the point was that whoever they were originally looking for wasn't there

as for "5 guards" they killed over 20 and managed to take 5 prisoner

fuck off vatnik

>>32727209

and russians brought out 600 hostages in beslan, sounds perfect if you don't know how many there were in total

>>32716150
JTF2

>>32727235
do you really think there are going to be hundreds and hundreds of prisoners in an isis prison guarded by a force of ~30 dudes? look at the helmet cam footage, that structure had none of the security measures you need to keep a large population of prisoners with that small a guard force

>>32727384

30 dudes can easily hold 200 hostages, what are you on about?

> look at the structure

Yup, looks drone striked to shit

>>32717552

They let lefties be operators?

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>>32727401
that's a load of bullshit

first of all lets say you split your guard force into 3 8hr shifts.

now at any given time, you have 10 men to guard 200, and to provide perimeter security. lets say you split them evenly between 5 guys patrolling the perimeter and 5 guys watching the prisoners. now you have literally 5 guys to watch 200 prisoners for a whole 8 hours. that's 40 prisoners per guy. Even if you have a bunch of big rooms where you can squeeze 40-50 prisoners in each, that's enough prisoners that you have no hope of being able to watch each one closely. that's a recipe for a prison break. you might be able to manage it in the short term but try holding this for more than a month and you'll see some shit

for context look at WW2 POW camps. a lot of them maintained a 10:1 prisoner to guard ratio or better, and they all had tall fences, purpose build prisoner housing, guard towers with machine guns, barbed wire, etc. furthermore they were by and large sited in places at low risk of enemy attack so the amount of guards providing outward security was relatively low

>Yup, looks drone striked to shit
>pic related
sure buddy. ask how i know you never even googled the helmet cam footage?

>>32727025
The Russian government you idiot

>>32726960
bullshit

What's the difference? The difference between massacring hundreds of hostages with guns, flamethrowers, RPGs and tanks and a drone strike?

Cut down on the heroin, Ivan

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>>32719771
>ywn get paid six figures to babysit vips and occasionally spray at jihadis you can't even see

I'd take a company from 1/76 over an equivalent sized force of SEALs any day. The Rangers are the only force that plans for a stand-up fight. SEALs and other SOF are trained to be sneaky mutherfuckers or leaders of illiterate foreign conscripts, not shock troopers (though with their infantry experience, I'd give a second thought to the Raiders)

>>32729103
>well paid security guard
>have to live OCONUS for a year or more straight to get the money tax-free
>job is to literally get shot at first

I'll take a hard pass.

>>32716150
Me and my buddies from C bat, 2-12fa circa 2007 because we are.

>tfw I've been training so I can go to BUD/S right after college
I've wanted to be a SEAL since I was like 6 years old and now I can't mention it to anyone without being told I want to be a tough operator loudmouth. Thanks, Chris Kyle.

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>>32731466
dont fucking give up
DO IT!

>>32727298
Who?

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MARSOC seem like they would be the frat bros at my college.

>>32729227
Raiders largely drew from Recon though, so along the same lines.

>>32732277
They ARE the frat bros at your college.
Majoring in BUSINESS on the gubbermint's dime so they can make wicked SIX FIGS YO in BUSINESS.
Then they get into a trade after realizing that majoring in business doesn't work outside of the Ivy League.
Then they make a Youtube channel.

Why is everyone shitting on MARSOC and the marines?

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>>32732652
the memes

>>32725752
Generally dont work in straight up engagements operations. They tend to insert personnel in very small teams as small as 1 or 2. Gather intelligence that can be used for other Special Operation teams. Also tend to work with people on the ground such as tribal leaders and rebels that they train and arm. They have way more flexibility and tend to be more self reliant than other teams. Think of going from a cop to a detective.

I could just be talking out of my ass, considering they're the spookiest of spooks.

>>32723976
Wasn't it 2 rangers who actually found him?

>>32732652
The marines advertise themselves as being super badass, which attracts stupid people who make major life choices based on commercials.

>>32732747
what is the cut/brand of the pants on the left? or just modified BDUs?

>>32732575
That fag from online, Dan Bilzerian went to my school so you might be onto something.

>>32725483
IIRC, no more than 6 in 3 seperate locations around the same time, (Bataclan being the highest casualty event) could be wrong tho.

>>32733917
But that's just intel. Aren't SAD SOG operatives supposed to fuck shit up?

>>32717544
This

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>>32732277
I'm a corpsman looking to get into the SARC program, but I'm starting to have second thoughts since I'm seeing a bunch of frat alpha bros being common in that community and I'm an introverted dude who doesn't fit the fuck in

Shit sucks man. I just want to do high speed shit with dudes who aren't bro-douches

>>32737752
Don't want bro douches while trying to go SF? Lol good luck

>>32737752
What's it like being in combat arms as an introvert?

>>32737752
If you're managing in normal Armed Forces currently, I doubt being SF would ruin you.

>>32716544
>seals just suck
Not to mention that any book you read on DELTA is commonly regarded as fiction, while SEAL's books are regarded as fictional historical events that actually took place but have spice to them.

That goes to show how badass DELTA guys are compared to SEALs

>>32718827
Considering DELTA has no pics except good 'ol airforce dude that i cant remember because i just fucked up. What was his name? Tge guy with the glasses?

Jesus, help my soul.

>>32738464
Oh Jesus, vinning. I meant vinning. Pray for me, boys. Ive just opened a can of whoop ass x.x

>>32738268
It's alright. There are definitely all kinds of people you can click with and get along with just fine. But there are times where I really wished I had more time to myself to do my own thing instead of always being around people.

>>32738351
The only issue I really have is finding out if I can really get along with the other team guys, that's about it. Thanks tho senpai

>>32739340
Even in something like infantry which I assume is filled with a-types?