What was the most influential rifle, historically speaking, and

This is weak bait.

i think its the karabiner 98, it pretty much inspired most of the newer rifle designs or the STG 44. For obvious reasons

>>32715822
the 1886 Lebel. first rifle to utilize smokeless powder cartridges. first rifle to shoot spitzer bulets. first rifle to shoot boat tail bullets.

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>>32715822
For rifles specifically? The Dreyse Needle Gun is the most influential by far.

>>32715920
This

>>32715920
The Dreyse was first to popularize breech-loading, self-contained (paper) cartridges, firing pins, and bolt actions. The Lebel would not exist without the Dreyse.

Stg-44 grandpa of all modern assault rifles

>>32715952
>popularize
so it was not the first.
the Lebel was the first to do many things that completely revolutionized the world of firearms.

>>32715969
We're talking about all rifles here, not just assault rifles.

>>32715976
>"The Dreyse rifle was also the first breech-loading rifle to use the bolt action to open and close the chamber, executed by turning and pulling a bolt handle."

Lebel is influential but not as influential as the first bolt action rifle ever.

>>32715983
Yea i'm aware, without the stg = no AR no AK

Enfield 1853.

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>>32715996

>>32715998
But it ignores ever other type of rifle your mongoloid

>>32715952
sure but it's reaching back a bit far, it's like saying without muzzle loaders there wouldn't have been machine guns, technically true, but does that really mean anything when the two are barely related mechanically?

the Lebel has more directly in common with the Mle. 1878 through 1885 naval Kropatschek rifles.

>>32716007
>Lel my smug reaction image will sure show him

>>32715998
well the Federov in 6.5x50 was around so the AK would have happened eventually. the Russians had already adopted an intermediate cartridge by the end of the second world war

>>32716012
I only say Dreyse since it was really the gun that made muzzle-loaders obsolete and ushered in one of the most popular and innovative actions in history.

>>32715822
Ak-47
Pretty much is the reason why the standard is a rifle chambered in an intermediate with a 30+ round magazine
>Muh stg44
Was so unimpressive that the US still forced everyone to go with a 7.62x51 rather than recognize intermediates are the the future.
Only after the US ran up against Chinese copies in Vietnam did they realize they made a mistake and it forced them and by extension most of the western world over to 5.56

>>32716021
im not trying to "show you." i just disagree with you. the moment the Lebel rifle was adopted, it made every other firearm in the world obsolete. i do not think that can be said about the Dreyse. breech loading firearms that used paper cartridges had been around for some time "M1819 Hall rifle). yes it was a massive step forward in firearms design, but i do not think it was "revolutionary." i do think the Lebel; with a high velocity, small bore projectile propelled by smokeless powder was truly revolutionary.

>>32716073
Stg would never have been developed if the russians had not have gotten their hands on the Stg. They would have just kept cranking out submachine guns and SKS

>>32716083
>Implying the switch from muzzle-loaders to breach-loaders wasn't revolutionary and one of the most important moments in firearms history.

>>32716073
>Was so unimpressive that the US still forced everyone to go with a 7.62x51 rather than recognize intermediates are the the future.
no. the reason the US refused to adopt an intermediate cartridge was because the generals in charge of procurement were stuck in the mentality of 1 shot 1 kill, every soldier is a rifleman, etc.
the STG was very impressive, enough to heavily influence the AK rifle

I'll argue that the STG44 is extremely important for teaching the world that an infantry rifle doesn't need to be as powerful as possible to be really good.

Going back, the Lebel was the first to be smokeless, gigantic leap, then further back, the self-contained metallic cartridge, and a while after, whoever thought to put a percussion cap on it.

Before self-contained cartridges, the first to make rifled bores standard, then the Minnié Ball, and finally the mercury fulminate cap.

>>32716073

This >>32716117
US Military procurement is notoriously shit

>>32716128
Oh shit, the box magazine.

Who did a box magazine first? Paul Mauser or James Paris Lee? I can't remember.

Either way that was extremely important, as was the Spitzer (pretty sure THAT one was Paul).

>>32716110
>Implying the switch from muzzle-loaders to breach-loaders wasn't revolutionary and one of the most important moments in firearms history.
thats not what i implied. i implied that the Dreyse was not revolutionary. if you had actually made the point that the first ever breech loader was the most important, i may have given you that. but you did not.

>>32716147
>if you had actually made the point that the first ever breech loader was the most important, i may have given you that. but you did not.

But I did see
>"The Dreyse rifle was also the first breech-loading rifle to use the bolt action to open and close the chamber, executed by turning and pulling a bolt handle."

>>32716147
>I'll take Moving the Goalposts for 400

ak47

>>32716173
the Dreyse was not the first breech loading rifle. if you had made the case that whatever rifle that is was the most influential rifle, then you would have a case


>>32716183
explain

>>32715822

Mauser
>muh strong as fuck action
Stg44
>muh semiauto rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge
AR-15
>muh modular system
>muh locking lugs
>muh inline recoil
AR-18(0)
>muh dual recoil springs
>muh gas piston
>muh stamped receiver
>muh cheap to produce

>>32716008
Yeah but it created a class of rifle that every big military has used standard issue since for the past 50 odd years and should be using for the next 50.

>>32716298
>>muh strong as fuck action
> is actually weaker than several of its contemporaries

>>32716318
>Yeah but it created a class of rifle that every big military has used standard issue since for the past 50 odd years and should be using for the next 50.
>created
false. that was the Federov in 6.5x50

>>32715822
Because it was the first assault rifle that allowed non stop warfare.

>>32716083
I agree completely with this anon.

The dreyse was indeed a big player, but after the lebel even single shot breechloaders outclassed everything if they could still use smokeless. The .303 brit Martini enfields, Springfield trapdoors, ect proved smokeless was by far the bigger improvement over a bolt action design. Hell lever actions were doing fine with both. Paper cartridges were just a small bump. Brass cases should of been invented earlier. Smokeless paper cartridges cpuld of been funny though

>>32716350
Incorrect, Yes the Federov was designed first but only a little over 3 thousand were ever made. The Stg was mass produced and was the rifle that influenced all other countries to switch to that design. not the Federov

>>32716392
the term you used was "created." the STG did not create the concept of a shoulder fired, select fire, low recoil firearm.

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The MP 18 was, since it started the world of portable fully automatic fire, capable of being manned by a single soldier.

Inb4 "subamchineguns aren't rifles!"

Pistol caliber carbines are technically still rifles, so why shouldn't machine pistols be counted as rifles too?

>>32716298

The arisaka is actually surprisingly the strongest action of all WWII Bolt rifles.

I forgot what book it was but they did a test using rounds loaded above the standard maximum safe load to fire and the Arisaka was the only one that could handle it without blowing to bits

>>32715920
Clever design or battlefield influence?
The M1 kicked ass all over tbe battlefield.

>>32716401
Nice try but thats not the definition of Assault rifle, it is a shoulder fired, select fire, INTERMEDIATE caliber firearm not 6.5 arisaka thats not an intermediate calibre.

>>32715920
This right here, Metallic cartridge smokeless powder is already huge. The other first features only cement this.

>>32715822
Because the Americans won

>>32716916

6.5 ariska is basically a long intermediate cartridge. Anyway assault rifles have more to do with the MP18 proving the concept with submachine guns work then with the STG44 intermediate cartridge.

That would be like saying the 1902 Madsen while revolutionary is entirely responsible for a whole class of firearms which were already being developed and refined from existing features.

If thats the case we go to the Semi auto Mondragon rifle as it showed the potential of a military semi automatic battle rifle. Without its adoption and use we could have seen a domination of bolt rifles for another few decades longer.

>>32717038
Go back to playing bf1

>>32716871

The exposed action of the Garand and bent operating rod combined with the excessive rate of fire in the action (watch one in slow motion) detract from its reliability to a fairly large degree.

Contemporary rifles of the time such as the G41 which used the awful Bang action and was so unreliable as to have a straight pull function for when it failed. and the SVT whose rimmed cartridge and byzantine wartime ammo disparity cause some functional problems. However its short stroke piston action descended down through the FN-49, the FAL and gas piston Armalyte rifles.

The Garands bent long operating rod is a mechanical mess which was corrected in the M14 but its signature receiver gap to let in small rocks and sand lives on.

>>32717087
Mondragon pioneered the rotating bolt, just saying

>>32715864
This, StG44 pre-empts the core modern infantry concept

>>32715822
lebel 1886

>>32717209
Yes but very few were made, hence = noone knows about it

Stg44 is the first successful, mass produced assault rifle ever and influenced every country ever

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>>32716142
>First box magazine
JM Browning, my dude.

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>>32717038
>That would be like saying the 1902 Madsen while revolutionary is entirely responsible for a whole class of firearms which were already being developed and refined from existing features.
It wasn't the Madsen that did that. It was the CSRG-15 Chauchat. The French pretty much developed modern light machine gun tactics with it.

>>32717405
Harmonica chambers aren't a feed of self-contained cartridges, it's a multi-chamber breech block, arguably like a revolver cylinder.

For that matter, harmonica guns predates JMB and his dad.