If the biggest problem with caseless ammunition is heat build

Because that would weight a lot more than conventional gun and be more mechanically complex; and weight savings and simplicity of action are the main appeal of caseless.

>>32632247
How are you gonna get those bullets into the chambers? Are you proposing a revolver which takes magazines? How big and heavy do you want this thing to be?

>>32632267
>>32632289
You wouldn't need a bolt or gas system.

It would probably be done if revolvers weren't obsolete

Why though? You're basically then modernizing the black powder revolver, which we already did in 1854 with revolvers that take cartridges, hence modern revolvers.

>>32632247
Why stop at chambers? Use a whole new barrel.

Minigun baby

>>32632343
But gas revolver/rotary cannons are superior. I'd love to see a revolver cannon based rifle.

>>32632385
Germans did most of the work for us on that in the 40s
Russians did the work on the gas systems in the cold war
Just make an ADEN rifle already someone please

>>32632385
>All revolvers are based on designs from the 1800s, therefore caseless ammunition is useless for some reason
Really made me think

>>32632488
He's talking about how you'd have a revolver that completely empties its chamber after firing. It'd be better for a revolver, but revolvers are already obsolete in comparison to standard semi-automatic pistols.

>>32632488
>Really made me think
Evidently it didn't if that's what you got from it

>>32632557
What about a service rifle with that fancy no-neck 5.56? That shit could hit stupid rates of fire.

>>32632557
Do you have a better way of dispersing the heat of caseless ammunition?

>>32632738
Yeah, a more durable gun with a heat sink on the chamber. Go full rice with a custom water loop powered by the action if you have to.

>>32632755
So make the gun heavier and more mechanically complex to take advantage of ammunition designed to make the gun lighter and less mechanically complex?
Woah...

>>32632755
So your solution to my apparently heavy and complex design is a far more heavy and complex design?

>>32632247
>heat build up
>fragile ammo = squibs, ftf, irregular burn
>chamber seal
>gas cutting, catastrophic failure

>>32632247
What if instead of using a bulky revolver we had a thin metal liner that would absorb heat from firing and be ejected out of the chamber after firing?

>>32632839
Almost like a case of some kind

>>32632839
Back to square one

Is heat even a problem anymore? I seem to recall even the G11 ammo working properly when it was approved for production the week before unification happened and accidentallied all the funding.

>>32632976
Black powder (caseless) revolvers were square one
We are Back to the Future!

>>32632839
Now make it 50% shorter and 50% lighter. Oh wait...
>>32632805
>Gas seal on the front
>Pusher seals back of cylinder like on an 1895 Nagant

>>32632343
> gas piston vs huge revolver cylinder

One of these has greater mass than the other. And probably greater inertia too during fully automatic fire.

> what if not full auto
Ask yourself why you need caseless then.

>>32634457
You could make the cylinder hold 5 or less rounds depending on what prevents cook offs, and then feed it with a magazine.

>that feel when imagining a thin cooling jacket around chamber and barrel
>it would be aluminum heatsink sheets interwoven with heatpipes
>shooter has a button to a small nitrogen canister (size of 2 D-cell batteries in buttstock)
>it slowly vents a small amount of gas through the heatpipes and cools barrel/chamber
>shooter can use just a little or a lot when he wants
>it could have a function to vent a small shot of cooling during magazine changes

Shit would be cyberpunk as fuck.

There are real problems with the durability and weather resistance of caseless ammunition. The propellant dries out, or gets waterlogged, it becomes crumbly. Your "revolver" idea is basically what the Dardick Tround system was, albeit that used plastic-cased ammunition not all that dissimilar from the current cased-telescoped stuff from Textron.

I think there may have been some kind of rotating cylinder/breech employed on the VBR CAW, which was a caseless ammunition rifle that never developed past prototype stage.

>>32632247
>If the biggest problem with caseless ammunition is heat build up, why not just use it in a gun with many chambers, aka a revolver?
Because trounds are shit for infantry weapons.
The better solution is to just harvest energy from the bolt with an alternator that powers a closed coolant system.

>>32634831
>>32635221
Nobody fucking said trounds you retards.
ADEN rifle. Somebody needs to make one.

>>32634831
The solution is to enclose the propellant in a combustible thin combustible case, and have a chamber that deals with fouling well enough.
It's caseless, you don't need the chamber to support anything, just be sealed and able to index the bullet.

>>32634572
Like the Assault rifle from Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

>>32635271
Haven't played it.

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>>32632247

Weight for starters. The simplest way of fixing the weight problem is by replacing the chamber with ceramics. Which is what they did with the lsat. They still ran into issues with getting the chamber to seal reliably and, from what I heard, it had a tendency to fill the MG that it was being fired from with smoke.

>>32634831
>>32635221
I never said anything about trounds. Just feed a revolver cylinder with an ordinary magazine.

>>32635342
Nice thumbnail.

>>32635255
>weapon design include purposely fouling the barrel

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>>32632267
>Simplicity of action
>Caseless ammo

Pick one

>>32635687
Did I say you said anything about trounds? I said your idea of a revolving chamber was already done with the Tround system. I'm not actually sure what your distinction achieves that the tround system doesn't or that the LSAT system doesn't. I'm not sure why yours is better or more desirable. Is it predicated solely on the idea of the ammunition being entirely caseless, with the propellant shaped around the projectile? Because I've already pointed out that heat isn't the only core problem with caseless ammunition. It isn't durable against the elements.

>>32635702

It's ripped directly from a pdf that detailed the lsat program's caseless endeavor. There is no larger resolution. You can try a bigger one if you want.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Spiegel.pdf

>>32632247
>If the biggest problem with caseless ammunition is heat build up
It isn't

>>32635804
The tround system wouldn't seal it up enough, or have as much strength as a traditional revolver cylinder. I understand that caseless isn't necessarily a good idea, but I don't understand why the G11 and LSAT are using fucking space magic mechanisms when this seems far simpler.

>>32632247
This is NOT true.

The problem with casless ammunition is because it doesnt have a Case to insulate against the heat and the propellant is more vulnerable to igniting due to heat.

That means you need to CHANGE the kind of Propellant.

When you cause explosions right on solid steel its going to heat up, there's nothing you can do about that.

But you dont be a dumbass and stick something combustible on something thats pushing 1000F.


One possibility is coating the ammunition in something that slows down heat absorbtion like a foam lining that only ignites at hotter temperatures. But it means once you've loaded a round into a warmed up barrel that round is going to be damaged goods and only fit for being fired soon (not returning to stock)

>>32635787
>>32635905

My Face When
rather than sticking a primer into the propellant

they could use an electric spark to just fucking set off the explosive just like they do with C4 and every other kind of high explosive out there

last I checked a simple electric spark from a 9V battery would set off Model Rocket Engines, because I had one when I was a kid

No goddamn firing pin needed.

Now if they want space magic for loading bullets in from 45 degree angles or something stupid like that they can be my guest.

Remember that M41 "Pulse" Rifle from Aliens... yeah well it was a "Pulse" rifle because they used an electric pulse (zap) to set off the propellant from their caseless rounds.

Ever since 1986 the solution has been there, on a movie even, and nobody figured the shit out yet for some reason.

>>32636003
what a brilliant concept that nobody has ever thought of

i mean what could possibly go wrong with a firearm that requires batteries

i mean a bunch of our other kit requires batteries and our highly efficient military industrial complex makes sure our fighters always have more than enough juice to run their gear.

>>32636003

They've had electrically activated primers for a long time. Remington even released the EtronX rifle that used it. The reason why the action is so complicated is because of issues in getting the chamber to seal fully not because of the firing pin. Without a case to deform and make an airtight seal, gas blows back into the action. The entire sealing process has to be mechanical in nature and that makes it more complex.

>>32636003
>just like they do with C4
C4 requires a detonator, not a simple spark

>>32635787
That has nothing to do with the caseless ammunition and everything to do with its crazy 1 million RPM burst mode and recoil system.

>>32635905

A traditional revolver cylinder isn't gas tight enough. There'd be issues with flame cutting from both the front and back of the cylinder with caseless.

>>32636003
>propellant cook-off problems
>replace stable propellant with sensitive primary explosive

I do not think this is a viable solution

>>32636124
HOLY FUCKING SHIT JUST MAKE A TINY VERSION OF THE ADEN CANNON AM I FUCKING SHADOWBANNED OR SOMETHING

>>32635965
Just re-use the G11 compounds
They literally had it working fine just prior to unification

>>32636491

Nobody's responding to you because making a mini aden is retarded. It's so retarded that you where ignored 3 times in a row. It's time to stop.

>>32636124
JUST GAS SEAL IT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CYLINDER REEEEEEEE

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>>32636505

Actually no they didn't. A big issue with caseless, amongst other things, is getting a compound that is stable under pretty much the same conditions as brass but with the reliable detonation of regular propellants.

>>32632875
Amazing!

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This is one of /k/'s most serious and civilized conversations we've had yet bravo.

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>>32636003
already done by austria
super accurate because the light ass trigger and no firing pin

>>32636031

It seems like a bad idea, until you consider that the rifle already runs off of consumable ammo that it's totally useless without, and every man would be carrying spare batteries. Battery life would be quite long.

The whole firing system would essentially be immune to dirt or debris, no broken springs or pins, no burst cams, etc. Pros and cons.

>>32632247
You're going to seriously hurt yourself if your arm is next to the cylinder gap.

>>32637364
>>32636003
Don't even need batteries. Just snap/ignition switches and basic capacitors to create the electrical current.

I've always wondered if it was possible to make caseless 5.56 with the same exterior dimensions as its cased counterpart. That way it could be chambered in existing firearms.

>>32639075
The problem with that is that the cases act as part of the chamber. That's why a case failing is such a bad issue.

>>32638922
That's why you seal it ya goof.

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>>32632247
>The problem with guns is that they're too modern and effective

>What we really want is a revolver that fires patched paper cartridges

...

Nah... Naaaaaahhhhh

>>32632343
How are you going to feed from a mag or belt with no bolt and no gas system?

>caseless ammunition revolvers

SO LITERALLY A BLACK POWDER REVOLVER USING PAPER CARTRIDGES

WELL SHIT WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THAT SOONER

>>32641087
Hammer feeds and extracts cases, double action pull. Could also make it short recoil