What would it take for SMGs to replace carbines in SWAT/Special

>>32600688
An armor piercing round that was still as effective against non-armored opponents also longer range.

>>32600961
15" MP9 firing +P+ 9mm

>>32602020
>Not +P+++

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>>32600688

>>32600688
They have to shoot lasers

internally suppressed MP10's are what team rainbow uses

>>32602020
15" barrel?

>>32602803
If that were in 9/10mm it might work.

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>>32600688
>5.56 NATO vs 9mm NATO
>Both of these rounds weigh about the same, see chart
>Both are very well tested and very common calibers
>Weapons training is well established for small arms in both calibers

>5.56 has flatter trajectory, means the bullet stays in the same scope field picture for longer distances
>5.56 has today more refined, combat proven carbine platforms than 9mm
>Much less R&D happening in SMG dimension, one of the proofs may be that MP5 has stuck in the SWAT arsenals for this long

Penetration is not an actual problem. TC core AP rounds go through at least half inch thick plate of real ballistic protective steel with both calibers.

Plus there are a multitude of support weapons for punching through thicker things, from sniper rifles to armoured vehicles.

Plus, SWAT is not an unit which needs to conceal their weapons, because they are an attack unit. Secret Service needs to conceal carry their weapons because they are a low drag high speed defensive unit.

Well my take on why or why not.

>>32603374
Interesting analysis, thanks. What would you like to see developed with SMGs that'd really give them an edge, assuming the R&D money was there?

>>32603413
Difficult to say.

SMGs, due to their "pistol nature" have well refined concealable models. They also provide more firepower than a standard handgun. That's why the acronym PDW was coined back in the day.

SMGs won't vanish from the picture for aforementioned reason. There will be always requests to meet this relatively narrow sector of scenarios.

However I think they will not replace actual rifle carbines anymore, especially if there is no reason to operate with firearms essentially fully concealed at some point of scenario.

>>32600688
Enemies that never, ever wear any armor

>>32603713
>SMGs, due to their "pistol nature" have well refined concealable models. They also provide more firepower than a standard handgun. That's why the acronym PDW was coined back in the day.
>SMGs won't vanish from the picture for aforementioned reason.
My questions is with the G18 basically being the hands-down best SMG there is, why do others even try to compete? I can understand if you say MP5, or stray as far as the MP7, MP9, Micro Uzi, or even the Mk 18 Commando.... but really, why bother with a Vector or any other newer 'spess' age smg?

What I'm curious about is why SF doesn't use a small pistol caliber PDW as a secondary with a .30 cal marksman rifle as a primary. Are there any reasons this is a bad idea?

>>32600961
.50AE at close range will be comparable to 7.62x39 in terms of energy. So you trade weapon length for a longer and thicker magazine, which is probably a good thing for operating in urban areas. Just need to make some AP rounds for it.

>>32604272
Real life is different than Battlefield. Marksmen don't need a PDW.

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>>32600688

This.

>>32604100

Honestly for a SWAT team (who can use hollow points), a 10mm SMG would probably be a better choice since it would limit the risk of over penetration.

However for military forces (who can't use hollow points) who are more likely to have to engage targets with armor and targets at range a rifle is a much more versatile and effective option.

If you could get a pistol carbine sufficiently suppressed that its Hollywood quiet (pic related) then I could see special forces using it; but stealth would be the only reason to choose a weaker round.

>>32604272

>Are there any reasons this is a bad idea?

Weight.

>>32605340
Wipe suppressors still exist, don't know why SF don't use them. Also do you know what the logic was for banning HP use in the military? It increases the risk of civilian casualty, and they're still allowed to blow people up and shoot them with cannons. What difference does it make?

>>32605409

The thinking behind the original treaty is that its preferable for soldiers to be wounded and unable to fight rather than being killed.

Remember the term casualty doesn't mean a soldier who is killed; but one who is rendered unable to fight.

>>32602882
Yeah, you know, a rifle... oh wait

>>32604272
They used to back in the day.

The Mk. 23 SOCOM pistol was developed for the offensive handgun project specifically to replace carrying a suppressed smg to save on weight.

>>32605500
That is stupid as shit.

>>32600688
Nothing.

The use of an intermediate cartridge and an ultra compact design was achieved by the P90, and it never took off.

So it probably won't take off for any other wunderwaffe you or anyone else is cooking up to bring SMGs back into the mainstream.

>>32606221
The P90 was overpriced, and used a shit meme cartridge. A cheap P90 inspired PDW in 9/10mm would be far more viable for SF/SWAT.

>>32606140
>Have the option to shoot enemy soldiers with two types of round
>One will cause immense pain and disable him in most scenarios that aren't basic scrapes, or kill him instantly due to a head or heart shot - worst case that isn't instantly lethal is a femoral artery shot
>Another will shred his insides and either leave him dead after hours even with medical treatment or leave him a permanent cripple to be a drain on his country's resources

I wonder why, after two world wars, people might be eager to agree to these... Conventions.

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>>32606140
>Geneva Conventions are stupid

Heaven forbid we not make soldiers disposable people to be thrown into man-made hell with no rules or common decency.

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>>32600961
i've got just the thing

>>32606312
I don't see the problem. It's war and the Geneva convention is often ignored anyway. It's like a handicap for the good guys who have the decency to follow it.

>>32606286
So American citizens can use hollow point, and the American military can blow people's legs off with autocannons, .50s, and missiles, and bomb their hospitals, but God forbid a foot soldier use hollow points in his underpowered M9 to kill a terrorist with an AK.


Maybe if we don't want inhumane killing we should end wars, not restrict our soldiers from using what the enemy uses.

>>32606345
There've been very few wars between two forces with established militaries since that time, anon, and generally they've followed the rules.

>>32606362
Hollow points are a failing of the Geneva Conventions as their original target was unconventional ammunition like rounds that would explode inside a person.

The intent was either that a soldier be killed in a way that didn't extend their suffering or put a resource and moral strain on their commanders, or have wounds that could be recovered from, not that we use peashooters.

>>32606312
> Hogue

>>32606451
>Hague

>>32606419

Hague, your thinking of the Hague.

>>32606451
>>32606540
>>32606541

Hague mind

>>32605340
I guess, but what if some hypothetical gang decided to go to the army surplus store and get some real armor? SWAT teams could spray them with all the hollow point 10mm they liked, and the gang (presumably armed with rifles if they expected to be raided) would be at an advantage.

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>>32606960
If they're wearing soft armor then 1. the physical impact of the rounds hitting the vests would break their ribs and shit and they'd have a bad time, 2. their arms, legs, heads, and probably groins wouldn't be armored, and 3. if they had rifle plates then assault rifles wouldn't help much, you'd need to get multiple hits with .30-06 AP or equivalent to defeat the plate itself, or aim for unarmored parts of their body, which brings us back to point 2.
The only situation where 5.56 has an advantage is a North Hollywood Shootout type situation where the bad guys are covered head-to-ankle in soft armor and doped up on painkillers so they don't perceive the pistol/SMG hits.

>>32607090
those dudes didnt take painkillers. they took a muscle relaxant

>>32607090
>the physical impact of the rounds hitting the vests would break their ribs and shit and they'd have a bad time
No.

>if they had rifle plates then assault rifles wouldn't help much, you'd need to get multiple hits with .30-06 AP or equivalent to defeat the plate itself,
Repeated hits from intermediate calibers WILL cause plates to fail.

>>32607726
depends on the plate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2TBoP9Aoow

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>>32603373
>If that were in 9/10mm it might work.
If it were in 4.6x33 it might already be used by SOF around the world....

>>32608054
>If it were in 4.6x33 it might already have a reputation for needing to dump an entire magazine's worth of ammo into one guy to get a semi-reliable stop

>>32608125
>If it were bad why would SOF elect to use it instead of SBRs?

>>32608143
I assume because it's smaller, lighter, and quieter suppressed than a CQBR and has better armor penetration than an SMG, i.e., more or less exactly what it was designed for.

>>32608190
It's almost like it's a good gun for a specific role that special forces wanted to replace their carbines with.

Also, do you really think pencil wound channels from a 9mm/10mm are somehow considerably superior to a 4.6mm pencil wound channel?

This needs to be cleared up

The US did not agree to the hauge convention. The US military can use Hollow points if they want to. They don't for logistical reasons, not because of conventions or treaties.

Only the cuck Europen NATO nations did agree to the Hague convention, so they can't use HP's

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>>32606321
why such small bullet?

>>32608335
By definition the wound channel from a 9mm is going to be nearly twice as wide as from a 4.6mm, resulting in nearly three times as much crushed tissue for any given penetration depth. Yes, I'd say that's considerably superior.

>>32608054
>>32608125
>>32608190
What about something like 6.5x25 CBJ? Works with any 9mm gun, penetrates like an MP7, and leaves a considerably larger hole. Even better would be this idea scaled up to 10mm.

>>32608413
>a 9mm pencil wound channel will reliably stop people
>a 4.6mm wound channel is incapable of that

Tell me, what is the difference between a 4.6mm hole in a man's heart/CNS versus a 9mm hole in it?

>>32608482
59.84*pi square millimeters times the depth of the permanent cavity

>>32608478
>MP5/10 rebarreled in 9x25 Dillon loaded with a 6mm tungsten bb in a discarding sabot

>>32608547
So why are you stopping at 10mm for a pistol caliber round? .45 ACP seems to be the better round for what you're concerned about. A .70 caliber FMJ that has enough energy to penetrate 18" seems like it would be ideal with your understanding of terminal ballistics.

>>32608624
A .70 cal JHP that penetrated 12-18 inches in calibrated ballistics gelatin and expanded reliably, especially after penetrating common intermediate barriers like heavy clothing and auto glass, would be radical (except for the issue of it being destructive device and requiring a tax stamp.

What we need is a combination of railgun and chemical bullet technology.

>>32608652
>and expanded reliably
Dude what is your fucking problem? A .70 in a PDW/carbine has no business generating enough energy to fire a bullet that expands AND penetrates 18 inches. Do you realize that its caliber already 3 times the diameter of 9mm?

What is your fucking obsession with pistol caliber wound channel size? It means jack shit to be shot with a 10mm hole versus a 5mm hole in your lung in regards to "stopping power."

>>32608729
>Do you realize that its caliber already 3 times the diameter of 9mm?
Mistype, meant twice the diameter.

.300 ACC blackout is the next SMG caliber.

>>32606140
It's also not why hps are banned.

>>32608729
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

>>32608763
http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
>Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so‐called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement. In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities.

Medical Realities

Shots to the Central Nervous System (CNS) at the level of the cervical spine (neck) or above, are the only means to reliably cause immediate incapacitation.

>-FBI

>>32608763
From your report

>Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.

Again, I'm not sure what having a 10mm gun would do significantly better unless you actually expect to shoot someone with a pistol caliber round outside of the heart/CNS, also not mag-dump them, and then wait for them to bleed to death.

>>32604213
Without a rate reducer the glock 18 is useless.

>>32608865
>all common service pistol calibers are equally worthless, so a hot .17 HMR is an ideal weapon for SOF and SWAT teams

>>32608902
That hot 17 hmr is just as worthless outside of CNS hits as the other calibers, can go through body armor, is more controllable on full auto, and has twice the effective range (200m) as an MP5/10 despite having a 2 inch shorter barrel.

In trading something like a Mk18 10.3" barrel they get a gun that has only 3 more inches of barrel WITH a suppressor attached, only giving up 300m of range (versus 400m with 9/10mm and similar barrel length). The MP7 has 2/3s the weight of the Mk18, MP5A5/MP5/10 (all at around 6 pounds with the MP7 at 4.2 pounds).

With all that in mind I'm sure that the hyperbole you've heard (which is totally 100% legit non-fuddlore) about needing to magdump .17 holes into people suddenly disappears once the caliber threshold gets to .355 and up for non CNS/heart hits is the sole criteria for not using an SBR and picking up muh 10mm stoppin powah.

I honestly can't think of a better weapon than the MP7/P90 that mitigates the weaknesses of SMGs and encourages a user to not use an SBR for their mission instead.

>>32609198
Any SMG in 6.5x25 would be far more effective and modular, letting you switch out 9mm when you are fighting unarmored opponents.

>>32604272
Because .30 cal marksman rifle doesn't have offhand shooting and snap aiming penalties like in tactical vidya gaems.

>>32609198
>I honestly can't think of a better weapon than the MP7/P90 that mitigates the weaknesses of SMGs and encourages a user to not use an SBR for their mission instead.

It is simply amazing how much those relatively small caliber bullets penetrate hard and soft body armour when they have that sharp tipped tungsten carbide cobalt composite penetrator in them.

Even relatively mild pistol calibers turn into a flying sperm of satan when they are equipped with a real AP core of this type. It's just crazy.

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>>32608902
>>32609198
HK reported that MP7 is 12 DB quieter than MP5SD when using subsonic ammo. I think it was the main reason behind its SF adoption as ultra quite weapon for sentry removal. In this mission you aim for head anyway and caliber doesn't mater but noise does. 21st century DeLisle carbine.

>>32608478
6,5x25 CBJ is a scam, a hoax, a lie, and vaporware.

>>32600688
>What would it take for SMGs to replace carbines in SWAT/Special Forces use?
After invention of .300 BLK, nothing besides gun control regulations.

>>32611242
What makes you think that?

What about a hollow point with a armor piercing penetrator that's half the diameter of the bullet it's in?

>>32611249
I don't really know much about 300 blk. Is it the perfect round for people that never shoot past 300 yards? (Like me.)
I have heard that it drops like a 45 acp from some people and that it is the best thing ever from others.
What are the pros and cons of it vs .223 and 9mm? (My current primary rounds.)

>>32600688
P90 in 45 Auto. I would say 9mm, but it isn't straightwalled to work with the magazine well

>>32606960

An a 5.56 or even a 7.62x51 wouldn't pass through a vest that is just as legal and roughly the same cost as handgun rated vests theyre just larger and heavier is why they're normally just used by military and not law enforcement.

>>32611234
>200 ft. lb. muzzle energy

That's pretty fucking weak but still twice the energy of subsonic .22 LR

>>32611217
And it still has half the range of an MP7, 1/5 range of the 10.3" SBR, and the same weight as the SBR. If a user has to choose between your late 1980's dream of a 10mm SMG or his Mk18 SBR he will just choose the SBR instead of verifying IF there are tungsten carbide pistol rounds in their inventory (which do not penetrate as much as a smaller caliber would) that still give him 1/5 of the range of his SBR (instead of nearly half the range of the SBR with the MP7.) A current service pistol caliber carbine offers zero benefits over the Mk18s in SOF inventories. The MP7 is smaller, quieter, more controllable, lighter, and trades a minimal amount of range (from the SBR) for it.

For the amount that an integrally suppressed MP5SD is quieter than a Mk18 suppressed (~12 dB), the MP7 suppressed is that much more quiet than the MP5SD is (also ~12dB).

See
>>32611234

>>32611439
Why not just reduce the diameter of your bullet to begin with? For instance, on a .50BMG an AP round will penetrate under 3/4" at 500 meters and a 7.62 SLAP from a .50 BMG round will penetrate 1.34" at 500 meters.

>>32611531
The original idea behind 300 blk was for a .30 cal AR platform that would work well suppressed and have as much part commonality as possible with a 5.56 AR, and it that's what it does; at supersonic velocities its basically a 7.62x39, at subsonic its basically a spitzer tip .45.

>>32600688
10mm and .50AE

>>32612164
It is ok for headshots. And only them can guarantee immediate incapacitation in any practical subsonic caliber.

.32 ACP at work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ3CglnUMsw
literally hollywood

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Daily reminder that designs like this make any and all smgs completely obsolete.

>>32613105
>Dat muzzleflash
>Dat report
Looks good in theory but 5.56 indoors isn't really user friendly compared to pistol calibers.

>>32613133
Reminder that if it's available for 556 its available for 300blk.

Also pistol rounds don't have as much flash or report because they're anemic as fuck. That's not a selling point.

>>32613096
Brutal shit.

.22 LR would and has worked for stuff like that.

Does the subsonic 4.6mm still penetrate body armor?

>>32606362
I don't think terrorists actually are protected because they aren't signatories

>>32600688
Every time I see the SWAT out here they aren't hardly ever using either one. Mostly they use shotguns. I can understand why, I mean shit, who wants to get hit with a fuckin ounce and a half slug?

Beyond that decent SMGs are expensive. A decent, domestic AR is absurdly cheap. There was consideration when the local police got their armament update grant to go with the MPX. They bought about 3 times the volume of MPXs they could afford in cheaper ARs and kitted them out and replaced the shotguns getting worn out. They also bought a shit ton of stingballs for clearing crackheads out of trap houses.

>>32613157
Reminder that .45 has more force at less than 50ft than .300Blackout
So we need guns in 10mm and .50AE
Or some AA12s with slugs

>>32613248
Only subsonic you massive retard.

>>32613105
Bullpups are a shitty meme, and this doesn't even exist.

>>32613223
Perhaps an SMG that controls like an AR but is otherwise an extremely simple blowback or delayed blowback could pull SWAT units away from their carbines. If you could get the cost to 300/400 bucks and keep it modular I think you'd have a winner there.

>>32613300
Therein lies the problem. Domestic producers would need to R&D something and then re-tool a section of their work environment. Especially amongst the firearms world domestic American companies are not worried about progression. They just beat the same design to death trying to make profits by cheapening up an already existent design from being massively overpriced to just normal price.

If a company actually did do that an put in their own legwork to test efficiency a lot of companies would go out of business or have to cut down their production to save material costs.

>>32613300
>>32613371
You two are delusional. Why would SWAT units want to go away from an SBR and to a SMG? Please tell me what an SMG would offer than an SBR wouldn't be able to do better.

>>32613469
Not neither of those you replied to. I think they are not actually talking about something being better for SWAT and other such openly offensive LE/Mil attack units.

Instead, they are being Americans. We just want all the possible options in every possible form available to choose from.

I'm with you in picking up SBRs for teams who don't need to conceal anything. It's just more practical at so many levels.

>>32613469
Have you ever been to Chicago? Have you ever been to the south burbs where all the cultural enrichment condos are at? Those things rooms are the size of hallways. If it didn't cost them 3 times as much as it does to buy something compact as it does an AR they would just buy that.

You're also talking about shooting in an area that might have 5 or more connected apartments within 100 feet in any direction. Can you not think of a better reason to not be firing an intermediate rifle round in such a scenario?

I guess next you're going to say they should just pay the cost of a new AR to convert an old shitty AR to shoot 9mm, huh?

Beyond this it doesn't matter. They're still going to be using shotguns more than rifles regardless of your opinion.

>>32613469
They don't blow eardrums, perform better out of short barrels than 556 (in 10mm or larger anyways), and could be made cheaper. A P90 style magazine could allow much higher capacities too. The compactness is really the big selling point here I think. No PD is going to adopt an expensive shitty bullpup carbine, so short barreled effectiveness is important. Yes 300blk and similar exist, but they're too expensive.

>>32613768
>If it didn't cost them 3 times as much as it does to buy something compact as it does an AR they would just buy that.
>If it didn't cost 3 times the price of X to buy Y they would buy Y.
>10mm SMG shill logic

Tell me why do they want Y instead of X, or in this case an SMG instead of an SBR. So far all you've managed to say is that SBRs are cheaper. You seem to be under the impression there are tons of agencies and units that are all collectively using SBRs and wishing every minute their department could afford SMGs instead, which I find quite delusional.

>I guess next you're going to say they should just pay the cost of a new AR to convert an old shitty AR to shoot 9mm, huh?
No, I'm going to suggest they stick with an SBR in 5.56 in most any case or get something like a P90/MP7 if they really, really, want something smaller, lighter, and more quiet than an SBR/SMG.

>Can you not think of a better reason to not be firing an intermediate rifle round in such a scenario?
I can think of a reason to pick the right ammo for both the SBR and the SMG. Both the SBR and SMG will over-penetrate with the wrong ammunition.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?112461-So-Which-Round-for-Home-Defense-You-Decide

>>32613791
>>32613791
>10mm SMGS are quieter than 5.56 SBRs
Citation needed. 9mm are something like 2-3 decibels of difference from an SBR.
>inb4 I don't know how a logarithmic function works.

>perform better out of short barrels than 556
Citation needed.

>and could be made cheaper.
Except you know, nobody has done this despite SMGs having been around for almost a century longer 10mm Auto being almost 20 years older than the Mk18. If it were a viable concept it would be out there in force right now, but it isn't.

>A P90 style magazine could allow much higher capacities too.
Except the larger case diameter for pistol calibers would make the magazine longer which would reduce capacity for the same given length compared to the 5.7 and 4.6, which can get 20% or more capacity for the same given length compared to 9/10mm. Assuming the P90's magazine could feed 10mm and keeping the same length, it would only be able to hold around 36 rounds of 10mm compared to 50 of 5.7/4.6 based on case diameters.

>>32613791
>No PD is going to adopt an expensive shitty bullpup carbine
Of course not, they're just going to buy 10-14" barrel standard SBRs.

>>32614234
lol hollow points in an AR. You're a special kind of got shot by a dindu due to malfunction aren't you?

They're more expensive, they're not as available in bulk, they won't get write-off credits for them, the entire squad will have to be filtered into new equipment and trained on it. I mean shit the list goes on and on. Lets move past this part, though.

They are not going to go and order a bunch of custom batch ammunition they have to have design tailored to their needs to outweigh the fact that using hollowpoints in a cheap AR does not work very well.

As for the delusion of 10mm SMGs you have the wrong guy. If they went to an SMG it would definitely be 9mm. Why? Ammo choice. They have a few Beretta Storms and MP5s but they can't afford to field that to everyone nor are they the right choice for anything outside of busting in condos or apartments. Unfortunately this is where 90% of crime happens in cities. The trashy, unruly parts of town.

Do they sit there and spend all day thinking DAMN I NEED AN SMG? No, that is delusional. They know they won't get it due to funding. It's almost as delusional as you trying to hold your own assumption against somebody that said if the budget is right they would opt for the better choice. If you want intermediate cartridges to be a better choice for CQC build an intermediate cartridge that's not powerful enough to possibly go through multiple apartments. That's why they carry hollow points in their pistols.

If SMGs were as much bang for the buck as an SBR they would have their place in the arsenal. The costs of training, fielding, maintenancing, stocking and effectiveness VS buying an SBR are not there.

Now get out of here and find something better to do than trying to split cunthairs over why they should pick a fucking hollowpoint 5.56 in an SBR over a 9mm hollow point in an SMG. Adults are talking about the other real world rammifications other than "THIS R B BETTER GIT GUD FUGG" tier shit.

>>32614244
Just ran the numbers, a 556 round out of a 5 inch barrel puts out 479 ft/lbs of energy, while a hot 10mm can get you just shy of 800 ft/lbs with a 5 inch barrel. Obviously something like 50AE is in a whole different ballpark. If you read my post you'd notice I never said they're quieter than 556 sbrs. But, if you put a can on them they're the same length as the shortest effective unsuppressed AR, and they will not blow eardrums. Something like a lever delayed blowback SMG made with stampings and as few parts as possible could be very cheap. I concede the point on the P90 magazine there, but I also think the high capacity of the P90/MP7 is necessary, while in a more powerful caliber it's closer to overkill.

>>32614490
>hot vs standard
>thinking energy means damage like a video game
K

I chatted and shot with an FBI armorer guy and here are the key points regarding the 10mm mp5

>FBI agents love them
>FBI accounting hates the ammo cost
>HK hates them
>Spare parts are hard to find because of HK
>HK keeps trying to get them to trade for UMP systems
>parts wear is about on par with the 9mm variants

Shooting a 9mm and 10mm side by side was pretty nato. The 9mm variant was basically a bullet hose you could hold on target and perforate a target. 10mm was also very easy to control, you didnt feel a CHUG CHUG action with other 10mm/45 subguns. The mags for the 10mm feel a little less secure than the 9mm ones.

Bottom line,

10mm MP5 is gods gift to man but HK wants to sell people UMPs

>>32614512
You're right, energy doesn't mean damage. I didn't even mention how 556 out of a short barrel won't fragment, and performs like a 5.7x28.

>>32614445
>custom batch ammunition they have to have design tailored to their needs to outweigh the fact that using hollowpoints in a cheap AR does not work very well.
Citation needed. 77grain OTM is readily available and similar in cost or cheaper than defensive 10mm HP loads and is better than 10mm.

>Just ran the numbers, a 556 round out of a 5 inch barrel puts out 479 ft/lbs of energy, while a hot 10mm can get you just shy of 800 ft/lbs with a 5 inch barrel.
>muh energy dump
>

>Do they sit there...thinking...I NEED AN SMG? No
>They know they won't get it due to funding
So what is it? Do the users want an SMG or not? Do they think, man I wish I had an SMG instead of this SBR? Or are you going to keep going on with damage control about cost? Irrespective of cost do you think there is a huge desire for 9/10mm SMGs in SWAT and SF units or not?

>>32614490
>If you read my post you'd notice I never said they're quieter than 556 sbrs
>>32613791
>They don't blow eardrums
>implying you didn't mean something about pistol calibers not damaging ears as much as 5.56 out of an SBR due to it being louder
>muh damage control

>but I also think the high capacity of the P90/MP7 is necessary, while in a more powerful caliber it's closer to overkill.
>muh stoppan powah
>a 4.6/5.7 requires at least 20% more rounds than 9/10mm per kill
Citation needed.

>>32614675
>I didn't even mention how 556 out of a short barrel won't fragment
So did you mention how 9 and 10mm don't fragment, unless you actually count RIP rounds :^)

>>32614797
I didn't think bait this high effort could be so shit. Either that or you have a mental defecency. Assuming it's the latter, "muh damage control", "muh energy dump", "muh stopping power", and copied lines from my post, aren't great arguments.

>>32614956
You are making the claim that a 9/10mm is a better better at killing with less bullets. (i.e. the 45vs9mm argument). I see you conveniently skipped past where I asked for some kind of citation and instead you went straight to ad homs. Do you have a single piece of reputable evidence to back up your claims?

>>32614797
Nigger why do you think I like 10mm for some reason? There's no need for it when 9mm is cheaper, more controllable and does enough damage. It's cool, yes, but not needed in a duty rig. No, they are not going to order custom batches of ammo. They don't now, haven't since they've existed and probably won't anytime soon. Why? They would have to test the shit themselves to make sure it works. They can just talk to other departments/counties/cities police and find off the shelf loads that work. That's what they do lol.

Cost and the things that make it costly are why they don't do it. Imagine you own a machine shop forging and de-burring horse shoes. Are you going to spend the cost to re-tool it to build turbos for cars? Fuck no, it's expensive enough that there will be large-scale problems with how your business runs. Yes, it is that simple. An SMG in a small space with a lot of people present is better than an SBR in a small space with a lot of people present. Why don't they use them? Cost and the things that make the cost costly in the first place. You're either a good troll or devoid of the capacity to critical think. The box isn't just "Is it more effective? Lets have that then." It must be bliss to live in a world where you don't have to worry about using something literally 5 times the cost of something less effective because who has to worry, fuck that.

>>32615051
The only actually coherent point you made was that pistol rounds don't normally fragment. I'll fill you in on a secret- 10mm holes are bigger than 5.7mm holes, and so are 16+mm holes from 10mm HPs.

>>32615223
>I'll fill you in on a secret- 10mm holes are bigger than 5.7mm holes, and so are 16+mm holes from 10mm HPs
Ok cool. Since it is amply evident that the holes are bigger, there should be ample evidence that suggests a round like 10mm would provide more "stopping power" than a smaller caliber round like 4.6

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>>32615322
I've already shown you that 10mm bullets leave a much bigger hole and have more energy than 5.7mm bullets from short barrels. Since there isn't any tumbling or fragmentation in either case, the bigger and harder hitting bullet has more stopping power (assuming it has good penetration, which 10mm does). It really isn't that hard to understand. Keep in mind I'm talking about unarmored opponents here.

>>32607090
>the physical impact of the rounds hitting the vests would break their ribs and shit

This retardation again?

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>>32615453
>I've already shown you that 10mm bullets leave a much bigger hole
>my theorycrafting about terminal ballistics is evidence of my statements
So why not advocate .45 ACP which leaves even bigger holes?

>Since there isn't any tumbling
False, out of a 7 inch barrel 77 grain OTM will tumble twice, much like commercial 5.45 loads.

You know I was going to wait for you to post some fudd-tier article about stopping power but apparently you can't be assed (or are unable to) to make a statement backed up by shred of evidence other than your theorycrafting about what part of terminal ballistics a larger diameter hole will do in aiding a shooter to stop a man.

Transfer of energy as a function of "stopping power" is already debunked by Fackler's studies, and there is no objective proof that larger diameter holes in people correlates to stopping a man.

I'll post an actual source instead of my ass about this. Pic related.

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>>32615669

>>32615669
>Says I don't provide evidence to back up my statements
>Doesn't provide evidence that 77 grains will tumble from a 5 inch barrel
>A cannon shooting a 12 inch projectile will wound the same as a .22 because stopping power doesn't exist
Autism

>>32616205
>Doesn't provide evidence that 77 grains will tumble from a 5 inch barrel
They don't make 5 inch 5.56 barrels and you know that. This video is for a 7 inch barrel showing 77gr OTM tumbling twice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFKI5LgaNg

>A cannon shooting a 12 inch projectile will wound the same as a .22 because stopping power doesn't exist

A person losing both their legs to a 12 in projectile can live for a few minutes, much the same if the .22 LR hits their femoral artery.

Here's an article where a person lost both their legs, was able to use their phone to make a call, was rescued 20 minutes later and didn't die, for instance. But again please tell me how little 10mm holes in someone will reliably stop them outside of heart/CNS hits.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/both-legs-been-cut-off-5178067

Of course, you're welcome to cite any kind of medical research suggesting your theory that a 5mm larger hole in someone will kill them more reliably, since I have a report stating that handgun calibers don't matter at all for the most part.

>>32616205
according to the FBI, stopping power doesn't exist
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

>>32616991
>>32617120
Guess it's time to load up my 22 short revolver then. It's so comforting knowing that it can stop somebody just as well as a cannon!

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>>32617325
>I guess it's time to admit that I have no evidence to suggest 10mm is better than 4.6.

>>32604213
> git codfag

>>32615073
>Cost and the things that make it costly are why they don't do it.
Oh and they don't do it because nobody needs it and very few people want it when there are plenty of other better things to have.

>>32617365
I literally just said that's why I'm only carrying a 22 short from now on. If only there was an even weaker caliber gun I owned.

>>32602872

It's just "Rainbow", fagtron. Not "team Rainbow". They also carried "Beretta 45's".

>>32618090
Nobody would know who you're talking about if you just said "rainbow"

>>32600688
>is 1000 fps good enough
no

>>32606312
>if you kill your enemies, they win

>>32606312
why don't you try politely asking ISIS to follow your rules?

>>32618057
>what is magazine capacity.

>>32613105
>reloading........

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>>32618271
It's just a stop gap until I can get my hands on pic related. Don't get why 2.7mm never caught on.

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>>32618325

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>>32611234
>>32612164
Says copper plated solid, I bet its tungsten. For comparison, pic related. Very heavy subsonic .22(whatever) bullet in a fast twist suppressed long barrel is something that should have happened but hasn't for various reasons including suppressor ban. Perhaps the Trumpening may bring changes.

>>32618464
Well if what you said is true the 2.7mm is perfect. Just gotta aim for the vitals right?

>>32600688
Good AP and range.

>>32618279
...isn't an issue.