What's the cheapest/simplest assault rifle in existence

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Bamp for interest

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>>32581097
AK pattern rifles have proven to be cheapest and most reliable.

It is extremely rugged, accepting much abuse externally and it is able to function if poorly maintained or with foreign material within its mechanism.

This, and its price, is supported by its wide acceptance throughout the world and the nature of its users.

The AK is in circulation for African warlords, terrorists, counter terrorists, several organized nations including: all of the Eastern Bloc, China, Cuba, most of Africa, most of the Middle East, with variants used by: Israel, Finland and India(Only example of someone fucking up the design)

I know people will say that the AR is superior but, with cost and availability considered, it is hard to say that it is not the best rifle for the money and the reliability so, that when issued, it can be known that the user will be able to use it, even if they cannot care for it. There is only an argument presented here, by AR users and supporters, as it is the cheapest rifle of its type in the US, making its user want to justify their purchase by stating the rare flaws in its superior.

>>32581735
I love these

>>32582207
>or with foreign material within its mechanism.
Haha, he doesn't know.

>>32582225
I do too even if they're all created by people who oppose the ideology depicted

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>>32582207
>AK pattern rifles have proven to be...most reliable.
>It is extremely rugged, accepting much abuse externally and it is able to function if poorly maintained or with foreign material within its interal mechanism
LOL
O
L

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>>32582242
Of the mud tests? Where the rifle has foreign material added till it can no longer perform? This does not provide just grounds to ignore its users, the nature of which they are used and abused, and the evidence of them performing after this abuse.

Tell me again how intentionally breaking a rifle makes it bad?

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>>32582275
>AR brand AR
>not russian made AK-47, AKM, or AK-74

Please, be of killing self.

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>>32582304
Stay BTFO slavaboo

>>32582328
I plan on it.

>>32582287
No, you don't know that literally no gun on earth can survive dirt getting between critical mating surfaces.

>>32581097
Assault rifles in general aren't that simple from a mechanical standpoint, but aspects of a lot of rifles are extremely simple.

H&K's roller delayed blowback method of "locking" the breech is probably simplest method to handle the pressures of intermediate to full-power rifle cartridges.

The VZ 58's Fire Control Group is probably one of the simplest to wrap your head around due to it being striker-fired (and I'm actually of the opinion that on a mechanical level the VZ 58 is overall less complicated than the AK; though it's obviously significantly harder to manufacture if you don't have access to a mill)

if you're talking value for money then I'd have to say an AK of any type really they started making those things in the late 40s and if you found one from back then there's a 9/10 chance it'll still be in firing shape

/k/: Easiest board to bait, a title going nowhere fast.

>>32581097
I agree, the AR-18 was the perfected piston operated rifle.

>>32581097
>Cheapest/Simplest
This is difficult to say because of economies of scale. AK and AR rifles are extremely cheap to produce because the R&D/Machinery already exists due to military contracts. AK rifles have traditionally been cheaper due to political subsidies and economies of scale.

Id imagine if you were going for the absolute cheapest/simplest assault rifle in existence (within a vaccum) you would see something like a stamped mini14 making large use of plastics and composited stampings.

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For a decent quality one, probably can't go technologically lower than an AK.

But then you have whatever this is.

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>>32582258

I oppose Libertarians - I think they're retarded and the ideology is a lazy failure.

>>32582344
>Roller delayed rifle with a vz 58 fire control group
Make it happen. For science.

>>32582524
Considering it honestly, I have access to a machine shop (including a CNC mill and lathe)

Need to get around to buying a roller delayed blowback rifle, though I think it'd be a good candidate for a volksturm style improvised assault rifle due to the fact that it could possibly be designed to use a squared off/rectangular bolt (ala UZI) rather than a difficult to machine (without a lathe) round one.

>>32582344
i'd say gas delay is simpler

>>32582672
Gas delayed blowback is a meme. Even the later iterations of the VG1-5 ditched it in favor of an early implementation of roller-delayed blowback.

>>32582519
These are anarcho capitalist, tho.

>>32582519
I want it just because life might be a little less dull. I can't even get a boner unless someone's pointing a gun at me.

>>32582698
Anarchocapitalism is the only truly libertarian socioeconomic stance. Anything else is intrinsically against libertarian values of personal and corporate freedom. Most libertarians are moderate libertarians though.

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>>32582694
it's not the best but it is easier to produce, of course you could just go straight blow back for max simplicity.

>>32582753
I don't think the collapse of society is worth curing your selective erectile dysfunction.

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>>32582786
Me either tbdesuwithyoufampaitachi but I still think it would be an absolute blast.

>>32582804
Plenty of collapsed societies are available overseas.

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PL-9 FA conversion

>>32582826
How to get there with raifuru and other gear? I could see anarchy tourism being a thing if it's possible.

>>32582845
Doesn't need to be full auto, it'll be done after 1 round.

Jesus Christ you faggots, get back on topic or fuck off to /pol/.


(but if you're not libertarian you're a boot licking autist)

>>32582848
as an american you are allowed to travel with one set of personal body armor, if it's a collapsed state it's pretty easy to get an ak for a couple hundred bucks. bring a go pro and claim be a war photographer to cut down on legal difficulties.

>>32582753
Libertarianism wants government to protect property rights tho. Not only are you wrong, but you're dumb too.

>>32581097
This fucking thing:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/shooting-the-gustloff-vg1-5/

It's a blowback rifle chambered in an intermediate cartridge.

>>32582921
You're thinking of social libertarianism, as compared to economic libertarianism and socioeconomic libertarianism aka libertarianism.

Americans have this nasty tendency to assume the names they apply to their political parties should redefine terms, just like Marx rewrote the political dictionary to make his idiocy sound reasonable.

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Say what you will about the SCAR but the BCG operation is simple and easy to clean and service. Very simple and rugged weapon

>>32582258
The guy that runs the Instagram account that posts a lot of these an-cap memes is libertarian himself. Hes just making funny memes

>>32581097
M2 Carbine?

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>>32582519

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The AR-18 is godly though, literally a genius design.

>>32583071
>Short stroke gas piston
How is it any simpler than other rifles? Also it's questionable that 30 carbine is big enough to be considered intermediate.

>>32583121
Why tho

>>32582961
>Not American
He can be safely ignored everyone.

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TRW Low Maintenance Rifle

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>>32581097
What criteria do you plan for it to have to be simpler/cheaper? There's really a lot of ways to do it. You could also argue that bitch basic carbines are already mass produced and would be difficult to make cheaper short-term.

As for how I would go about it, I'd estimate $350 to $400 for a simplified AR-15.

>Unthreaded barrel, no muzzle device
>Fixed post front sight, gas tube welded permanently in place
>Smooth FF handguard threaded to barrel nut
>Reduced-rail flat-top with a fixed rear sight bolted on
>Reciprocating side-charging upper, no dust cover, forward assist, or brass deflector
>Simplified lower--no bolt catch, forged trigger guard
>Receiver extension diameter matches carbine tube, length of A1 tube, with an end plate, castle nut, and stock bolting directly on
>A1 style grip
>Safety is turning into a selector--semi or full, no safe setting. Autosear is like a lightning link.
>Straight 20-round stamped magaine

Overall, would reduce a fair bit of machining. Use cheaper metals (4140 for the barrel, 6061 for receivers), possibly subtitute for polymer (magazine, sights, lower receiver, and lower parts) or even wood (grip, stock). If the forgings had enough reduction in tool time, maybe even <$300 rifles with a great reduction in individual parts (20+ fewer) without affecting functionality.

>>32583231
I've wanted to build a replica of this for ages but no schematics/design details available.

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>>32583348
Another version
>30rd aluminum magazine
>Different grip
>Simpler stock

>>32582344
How is roller delayed simpler than a DI gas system?

>>32582754
Can't make a straight blowback assault rifle, bolt would be too heavy.

>>32583686
Simpler to manufacture/design as it doesn't require any complicated calculations to figure out where to port the barrel and completely negates the need for the bolt to have bolt lugs that you have to worry about locking and unlocking.

>>32583686
that's why my bet would be gas delayed blowback, however i always though this
>>32582489
was straight blow back 5.56

Hi point carbine

>>32583716
Seems reasonable, thanks.

>>32583727
That British prototype? I thought it was a 308 lever delayed blowback.

>>32582344
What about a Kiraly-style lever delayed blowback?

>>32583727
but so much for that, it's a level delayed .308

>>32583716
Lever delayed is simpler.

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>>32583827
doesn't really look that simple, to cut with files anyway

>>32583915
Doesn't need as many careful measurements for reliable operation. I imagine those rollers would be a pain in the ass to get right.

>>32583686
>Can't make a straight blowback assault rifle, bolt would be too heavy.
Do you want 'simple' or do you want SIMPLE? Straight blowback wouldn't be nice to use but it definitely cheaper and simpler

>>32582489
I actually rather like the way this looks, it's like someone took a drawing of a stick figure gun and made it real.

Wonder how reliable/durable it is.

>>32583949
Nigger you would need a 5 pound bolt. You literally couldn't make it.

>>32583967
We'll never know, they were never mass produced IIRC. Just imagine the lever delayed system of a Famas in a Sterling body. But probably simpler.

If the AR-18 was a god-tier design why was it a commercial failure?

>>32583981
that's a picture of two of them, not too man portable but they exist
>>32582754

>>32583915
>>32583827
This actually does look simpler than roller delayed blowback. I'll have to look into it some more.

>>32583348
You forgot a two lug locking bolt.

>>32583994
Because everyone who was remotely interested in it was also offered the M16, which was backed by the US gov't. The AR-18 was backed by the manufacturing power of Armalite.

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>>32581097
if we are going to include pistol caliber "carbines" lol then I give that prize the uzi
honestly probably the most reliable select fire design ever
also do ar-18 parts kits even exist?
they look like awesome guns

>>32584000
Look up "Chinese mystery pistol" on the Forgotten Weapons youtube channel. Just because it looks like a gun doesn't mean you could actually shoot it.

>>32583949
Also, I just found something interesting. I was going by the bolt weights listed here- http://www.orions-hammer.com/blowback/
But if you do the calculation for 5.56 the bolt only weighs 2 pounds. That can't be right, can it?

>>32584060
That's insane, I don't believe it. Pressures are way too high. Any engineer fags on here want to confirm?

>>32584060
What did you assume the diameter of the bolt face was?

>>32582207
What are some reliable AK manufacturers/models? Preferably with an underfolding stock....

>>32584380
I'm no engineer, just grabbed the calculation used by that guy for his list of bolt weights.

>>32584536
Did you even read the equation? You need the bolt face to calculate it.

>>32584576
I'm a dumbass.

>>32581097
Un-ironically, the FAMAS. Lever delayed blowback. The only thing thats arguably as simple is the roller delayed blowback action.

>>32583994

the AR-15 was better quality, most notably the milled receivers as opposed to the stamped receiver of the AR-18.

the AR-18 was designed to be a low cost weapon and the basic design is in the SA80 (alot of the problems the sa80 had were because its bullpup) and the G36.

i wish AR-18s are as popular as AR-15s today, id love to get my hands on one, but the only good piston guns are like scars and those are stupid expensive. i think AR-15s are popular because they are very modular and high quality for the price and the AR-18 was just too late to the party

>>32581097
Sten chambered for 5.56?

>>32584732
That couldn't work

>>32584707
There are good piston ARs.

>>32584795

i meant like a long stroke piston where the bcg and piston are the same unit

>>32584836
So an AK?

>>32584903

or an fnc or ar-18 but yeah,

if you have an ar and want a long stroke piston youre sol.

>>32581097
I've owned one of these.
Not idiot proof.

>>32582304
>no true ak
and the slavaboos foaming at the mouth again

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>>32581097

Striker fired
long-stroke piston
AK-style bolt
AR-style barrel extension
Square-cut bolt carrier group and piston

>>32583143
copied by SCAR and HK

>>32584947
Why is that

>>32585004
But that doesn't answer the question. What did it do so well?

>>32585246
>Why is that
if you forget to put the charging handle back on the bolt, it won't come back out without a hammer and it's drag itself down the bolt guide the whole way.

Also there's this piece that flops around the magwell, i forget what it is but if it's in the wrong spot and you try to close the upper on it it'll become damaged and good luck getting another one of those.
If i didn't sell mine a year ago i could provide pictures.

>>32585435
Interesting. I just used that image as a conversation starter, I knew they weren't that good. Had some interesting features though.

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>>32583981
>Nigger you would need a 5 pound bolt. You literally couldn't make it.
More like 3lb. Still heavy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grossfuss_Sturmgewehr
>gas was collected through four small holes near the muzzle, far too late to have much impact on the initial rearward acceleration of the bolt, which in the VG 1-5 weighted 1.4 kg

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>>32585463
which reminds me of an also-simple weapon, the Volkssturmgewehr. This is basically the better execution of the German last-ditch gas delay blowback rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr

>>32585454
they feel shoddy but are pretty solid. If they had more time in the oven like an AR-15 they would have been as good as an AR-15.

converting pmags was easy too.

>>32583231
This gun was super garbo though. "Low Maintenance Rifle" was a total lie.

>>32582488
>stamped mini-14.
You have no idea what you're talking about

>>32585463
>>32585470
We should start WW3 deliberately against Germany, just to see what they invent in desperation.

>>32584010
Lever-delayed blowback has 3 points of motion.
Roller-delayed has 2.

>>32584639
No. Lever has 3 points of motion.
Roller has two.

>>32585595
>straight blowback MP7 in 9mm
WW3 when?!

>>32585595
Just to make them abandon the G36!
By the end of the war, they'll have caseless löffelspitz (for a guaranteed deadly yaw) flechette rifles.
It's entirely possible to make a pistol round as accurate and deadly as a rifle round with that technology, it's a wonder why it's not in military use already.

>>32585588
Yeah the receiver is complex but that is the majority of the labor. The gas system is extremely simple and ruger makes use of mim parts right now. If you were in a rush mim with minimal finishing would work just fine . You could stamp the op rod and the gas system on a mini. Get rid of the bolt hold open and youre in business.

I would have said an M1 garand or M1 carbine but those arent assault rifles

>>32585620
One big hinged lever>two small spring loaded rollers

>>32582924
Very interesting. Thanks.

>>32585667
Spoon tipped ammo would be cool but don't think that even spoon-tipped ammo can make pistol cartridges as lethal as rifles. Fragmentation has made rifle cartridges much more effective but pistol cartridges don't have enough energy to make the fragments penetrate. Maybe in the future they could optimize the fragment size to improve penetration, but the rifle ammo will still have more energy to delivery more fragments of the same weight/speed/penetration/whatever metric.

I looked up löffelspitz and found the 4.6x38 cartridge, it does look pretty cool.

>>32585888
*4.6x36

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>>32583727
5.56 was the TRW Low Maintenance Rifle

>>32586338

Actually it wasn't blowback it was long stroke piston with a roller locking mechanism

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/TRW%20LMR/Low%20Maintenance%20Rifle%20556mm%20Tech%20Manual%20(1973).pdf

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>>32586363

>>32584060
>That can't be right, can it?
Well, it gives a weight for .223 as 7 pounds, so no.

>>32581097
Long barrel Sten

>>32581097
can somebody please dumb-down the "roller delayed" system for me? I have a very clear understanding of tilt bolt and rotating bolt actions, but whenever I try to search up how delayed roller works, nothing gets through my head (I would probably understand it if I had a gun with said system to fingerfuck for a bit, which explains my clear understanding of tilt and rotating bolts)

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>>32586861
Yeah roller delayed is hard to get. First get your head around lever delayed blowback >>32583915
https://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/08/actions-blowback-action-lever-delayed.html

Now check out roller delayed. Look at the colorized diagrams so that you can distinguish the parts better.
https://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/08/actions-blowback-action-roller-delayed.html

here's my thought process for it (pic related):
-the bolt head applies forward rearward
-the rollers have to move out of the way before the bolt can move back
-the rollers are forced inward
-the rollers push on the locking piece
-the locking piece moves back and the rollers move inward
-now the bolt head can move back

>>32586947
fug
>-the bolt head applies forward rearward
the bolt head applies FORCE rearward

>>32586947
>>32586955
RDB rests on the idea of friction of the rollers which is stupid. HK a shit.

>>32582845
>pistol caliber carbine
>full auto

nigga that's just an SMG with an unusually long barrel

>>32587007
It doesn't though, it's just a mechanical disadvantage. It's the same principle as lever delayed but with a totally unintuitive execution.

>>32582304
Doesn't matter. The action of AK is relatively open so it sure will work like shit when you put a mud on it.

>>32583727
>straight blowback 5.56
>.308 L4 Bren Magazine
No. Also it's lever delayed blowback

>>32585463
>7.92x33
The reason why yhr bolt is lighter is due tot he fact that 7.92 kurz has a lowerchamber pressure than 5.56. Keep in mind that not all cartridges are the same, some actions may work well than others

>>32586363
>it was long stroke piston with a roller locking mechanism
Just like Mexico's FX-01...

>>32582207
AK's are only cheap if you can mass produce them, which requires a massive first investment. ARs are cheaper to manufacture in small batches as the CNC mills needed, can be used to make other stuff, too when there is no rifle to make. The massive hydraulic presses and stuff needed to make AKs can only be used to make AKs.

>>32586828
That's not an assault rifle.

>>32586861
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xusr9M9cHr4

>>32583143
The bolt carrier rides on the spring guide rods instead of the inside of the receiver. It means you can make the receiver however cheap and crappy as you want just as long as it more or less acts like a dust cover. The leader dynamics version takes it a step further in my opinion. With the triangle bolt lugs making for a simpler to machine and more durable bolt at the expense of slightly slower lock time.

>>32587067
>>32584963
>>32582328
BUT IT WASNT RUSSIAN DIRT
RUSSIAN DIRT ISNT THAT GRITTY

>>32587693
Fuck me that is really cool.

>>32585004
Bolt design sort of, not the reciever or gas system

>inb4 somebody says the gas systems are the same
Don't make me get the diagrams and patents again, motherfuckers

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>>32585470
>Gas delayed blowback
Could somebody explain how this works? Pic is the only good example I can find on the internet but I don't understand what the gas is actually doing.

>>32587851
The gas pressure keeps the bolt closed by pushing the piston forward (instead of rearward like on normal gas operating semi automatics) until the pressure is low enough and safe enough for the inertia of the slide/bolt carrier to overcome it and cycle the action.

The gas delays the blowback.

>>32587851
Expanding gas in the barrel is pushing the bolt back. The gas is ported to the expansion chamber (making up terms here) and pushes forward on the slide to resist the reward force

>>32587980
>>32588008
These are correct.

>>32587980
>>32588008
Thanks. Speaking of this action, why the hell hasn't any manufacturer released a gun based on the Steyr GB? Gets around the heat issues of the P7 and CCP by putting the piston around the barrel, probably makes it cheaper too.

>>32584934
AR-18 is short-stroke.

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>>32588077
Chiappa showed off one at one of the SHOT shows but hasn't released it. It's like a 1911 / Steyr GB. Pretty clever use of the barrel bushing

>>32588077
It offers basically no benefits over short recoil for the average handgun.

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>>32582519

>>32588147
The one big benefit it offers is for female shooters. The return spring doesn't need to be nearly as stout to put a round in battery because it doesn't have to lock the barrel into the slide the way a short recoil browning style does. This makes it way easier to rack. My wife went for the walther ccp because it's the only thing she could reliably rack easily beyond her smooth as butter custom 1911 I bought for her a few years ago. She's smaller than average at about 5'2" 115 lbs, but the point remains.

>>32588147
Recoils softer, easier to rack, fixed barrel.

>>32588279
Does the average pistol cartridge produce strong recoil? Can the average person not actuate a slide? What benefit will a fixed barrel provide in this particular application?

The short recoil system is much simpler to design and manufacture.

>>32588305
If a pistol can be shot slightly more accurately it can mean the difference between life and death. I don't think they'll ever be as popular as short recoil designs, but in the niche that the P7 filled, a great, expensive, slightly higher maintenance pistol for experienced shooters, they're perfect. Somebody just needs to make one that isn't stupidly complex and needlessly expensive like the P7.

>>32588340
>If a pistol can be shot slightly more accurately it can mean the difference between life and death.
I think that's a gross exaggeration of the difference we are talking about here considering the ranges and gas delayed blowback isn't the only way to get a fixed barrel in a pistol. I never said gas delayed blowback wasn't a viable operating system, just that it didn't offer anything to your average handgun.

>>32582304
>muh monkey model

Oh how the tables have turned...

>>32586768
if you go with API doesn't that halve the weight needed?

>>32582207
>India(Only example of someone fucking up the design)
I desire to learn more about such a marvel of shitty engineering as to completely fuck up an AK design

>>32589693
It's a cultural thing. I've done some business in India and China too to a lesser extend In India and China, pretense is everything. If something looks legitimate or if it appears to work or looks the part then it's as good if not better than something that legitimately does its job. If it does legitimately do its job or is what it is, then either a relatively very large sum was paid for that good or service or there's a shit ton of palm greasing and corruption behind it.

It's the reason why nothing really works over there except in the most wealthy or corrupt areas, which are usually the same places.

To give you an example, the term synergy means nothing to them, culturally. There are only winners and losers in an interaction. If something is of mutual benefit then it is treated with extreme scepticism. This affects even familial or close personal friendships. Everyone is out to screw each other over even trivia things and they all want the moon at half price.

>>32587722
The only thing that matters is the dirt where a conflict is taking place.

only specific Iraqi dirt fucked up the Beretta 92 but it fucked it up.

I've heard plenty of stories of US servicemen encountering single shot AKs because of how trashed they were.

>>32581097
I'm working on a short recoil rifle design. I have to be honest, it is not going too well.
If i can iron little details like that even on paper it is an unreliable piece of garbage that breaks easily, it will surely be the next AR-15!

>>32583686
>Can't make a straight blowback assault rifle, bolt would be too heavy.

Now I just might be ignorant here, but couldn't you just increase the strength of the recoil spring to compensate for a lighter bolt? The main issues I can see would be the bolt would move forward rather violently, and it would be difficult to rack. The latter option could be compensated for by designing the gun such that the recoil spring can be disconnected from the bolt, perhaps something like this https://youtu.be/Axj7Dm5j24U?t=223, however I don't think there is a good solution other than some sort of spring loaded buffer for the former.

>>32582207
why would piston, short or long stroke be cheaper than direct impingement?

legitimate question. I know the AK is reliable, but a big part of its cheapness is that Russia gave away so many for free.

>>32587693
The leader was garbage tho.

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>>32591031
>Now I just might be ignorant here, but couldn't you just increase the strength of the recoil spring to compensate for a lighter bolt?

No. In practical terms, the spring has negilgable effect on the movement of the bolt during the part of the firing cycle that actually matters, the part where the bullet is being accelerated through the barrel, and the chamber pressure is high.

During this part of the firing cycle, the chamber pressure is in the tens of thousands of PSI. Even a tiny, low pressure cartridge like .22lr pushes back on the bolt with a force of about 700lbs. (18000lbs/in^2 * pi*(.11in^2)) A reasonable spring will usually be under 20lbs, maybe as low as 10. There's simply no way a spring that a person could hope to move would be able to meaningfully affect the movement of the bolt group during peak chamber pressure. If it were possible, you might as well just design it such that the user holds the bolt forward with their hand.

It's almost entirely the inertia of the bolt group that keeps the bolt from opening too quickly in a straight blowback firearm. The job of the main spring is not to hold the chamber closed, but to slow the bolt down before it hits the back of the gun, and then to push it forward again, strip a round off the magazine, and chamber it.

An excessively stiff spring will not only fail to meaningfully delay the travel of the bolt group, it will also likely stop the bolt group too quickly, preventing the gun from cycling. Which sounds a bit contradictory, but the energy stored in a spring Ep= 1/2kx^2, which is proportionate to the distance traveled squared. But it's only important to delay the bolt's movement during the first couple millimeters of travel, while the bullet is still leaving the barrel and pressure is high. The bolt should still be pushed back far enough to pass the magazine and ejector, with a little energy to spare for friction with dirt or a full magazine with a stiff spring.

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>>32582304
>b-but the t-test wasn't done by Russians

>>32591259
Sure it's cheap for reasons largely unrelated to it's mechanical simplicity, but cheap is cheap. DI is cheaper than piston systems, the AR is more expensive for other reasons.

>>32591259
>why would piston, short or long stroke be cheaper than direct impingement?
It wouldn't be. Direct impingement is the simplest gas system around.

Now the AR gas system, which is not DI, is far more difficult to manufacture due to the more complicated shape of the chamber and the chrome lining.

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>>32591796
This.

In a direct impingement action, gas impinges directly upon the bolt carrier. Hence the name.

Pic extremely related

>>32591796
>>32591873
So what's the AR considered then?

>>32591899
Stoner called it an expanding gas system but I call it an AR gas system or Stoner gas system. Either is accurate.

>>32591899
stoners piston system

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>>32591873
>>32591899

The AR-15 is a little different, with the bolt acting as a gas piston concentric with the bore axis.

Not only are the major forces involved all concentric with the bore axis, all in a straight line with the stock, but since the bolt is essentially pushing off the barrel extension, which should serve to counter some of the chamber pressure, reducing the force on the locking lugs during unlocking.

>I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Direct Impingement, is in fact, Direct impingement/internal concentric gas piston, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Stoner gas operation.

>>32591936
>I'm actually too dumb to understand this
That's what I get for not staying in school

>>32591936
I still disagree with the gas piston being the bolt. I think this comparison was made because the AR bolt has gas rings, but the bolt carrier is what is moved by the gas, not the bolt itself (well, it does move, but only just slightly off of the locking lugs on the barrel extension).

>>32592010

The bolt and bolt carrier together form a piston. If you were to replace the gas key with one that simply bottomed out like
>>32591873
it wouldn't work, because the gas tube does not have enough cross sectional area to generate enough force to operate the action. For that it needs a piston.

I don't think it matters which end of a piston is anchored to something for it to be a piston. Traditionally, hydraulic pistons anchor the cylinders and let the piston move, but that's just to simplify piping the fluid to the cylinder. In the AR-15, both the bolt and bolt carrier move, and the gas key is the solution to moving the gas to where it needs to go.

>>32589948
Reminds me of the ferengi from star trek

>>32582753
Moderate libertarian here, and I hate the hardcore ones for giving us a bad name.

I have to be "libertarian" because I'm for the deregulation of both drugs and guns--I don't fit anywhere else. Other than that, I'm pretty moderate. Status quo is fine for me, if only it were run more efficiently and they cut spending in a few places.

>>32585712
>Lever has three points.
>load, fulcrum effort.

>>32593061
>If only they spent less
There would be riots in the streets. You'll go full libertarian when dozens of governments around the world default.

>>32593061
>Status quo is fine for me
It shouldn't be. This place has veered far from it's original purpose.

>>32593696
Depends where they made their cuts. I'm all for a strong defense, but we could take trillions out of the Pentagon and not be much weaker for it. Also the many billions we spend enforcing bullshit drug laws, and on subsidies.

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>>32593061
>25% of my tax monies go to social security
>won't even be able to collect it when I'm an old fuck

>>32588147
if the Hearing Protection Act passes then fixed barrels will be a great benefit. No nielsen device needed for proper cycling

>>32594378
>Implying doing all of this combined would get close to balancing the budget
Well memed. Privatize basically all stupidly wasteful public services and then you'll get a balanced budget.

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>>32591969
don't sweat it, the diagram is mediocre and doesn't explain everything that's happening. Just check this pic

>>32586338
It looks like an extremely crude FG-42.

>>32581097
Make the tec-9 into an assault rifle. Less than 40 parts. It can't get much simpler.

>>32596253

it would need to be heavy as shit because bolt would have to be really heavy because of the blowback, unless you put gas ports in the barrel to lessen the pressure so you wouldnt need a heavy as fuck bolt

>but what if we delay the blowback?
hk did that with the G3

>>32582519
That's not Libertarian, fucking dumbass.

>>32582994

cause its based off a 240

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>>32583981

>Daily reminder that the Russians tried to make a straight blowback 7.62x39 during the AK trials.

"His weapon was an attempt to directly translate the PPSh-41’s design into an intermediate assault rifle, and was unsuccessful. The weapon’s unlocked, straight blowback breech resulted in a very heavy moving mass, and very violent action that spoiled the weapon’s controllability. After only 315 rounds fired, the Shpagin assault rifle was dropped from the competition. However, his design led to a mandate that all further Russian assault rifle designs trialed must be have some kind of breech locking mechanism."

>>32598627
fucking hilarious, thanks for the info

>>32598627
I would have loved to see that thing shooting. Recoil must've been rediculous.

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>>32583348
>>32583427
pretty good ideas. I wouldn't remove the safety, because it's already integral to the fire selector so you're only saving a few pennies of machining time on the part that already exists.

Unless you do something goofy like make it full auto only. Simplify the FCG, remove the safety/selector entirely, run it at ~500rpm like a grease gun. Technically not an "assault rifle" then but it fits the role.

A possible simplification - make the bolt carrier and buffer one piece. That eliminates the detent and spring. Early prototype AR10s had that.

>>32581097
Based sten

>>32594378
Not to get too far off topic but the major source of these budgetary problems is the combination of two things. Interest backed currency. Each dollar loaned into existence (because that's how money in most countries is created) has an interest attached. Combine that with massive deficit spending by issuing debt underwritten by other countries because they need US dollars as interest to buy oil from OPEC to service their energy needs.

Fix the monetary system and you fix a shit ton of budgeting problems.

>>32582489
i actually find that aesthetic as fuck. Though i feel the same for STEN guns and sterlings.

I just like the brutal simplicity of it

>>32595029
It'll be a modest benefit at best.

>>32583121
i came to post l-85 but this is that

>>32598781
>>32598945

It's my favourite piece of unintionally comedic historical gun funfacts.