Could Japan have had any chance of beating the USA anytime

you already know the answer anon.

>>32563990
No.

Even if Japan sank all of the US ships in Hawaii and wrecked all the Pacific fleet, the US would still field an overwhelming fleet by 1944.

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>>32563990

>>32563990
Conceivably if they got the rest of the world to join their side, there is a chance.

>>32563997
>>32564015
>>32564036
>>32564163

Then why did Japan attack America?

>>32563990
If Japan had hit the fuel oil storage at Pearl Harbor and/or sent all 6 available carriers instead of just 4 to Midway they could have forced America to the negotiation table.

>>32564203
1. they wanted a decisive first strike,
2. we had an oil embargo on them which was about to completely destroy their economy,
3. they underestimated our manufacturing capacity and wartime resolve

>>32564203
US pretty much cut off their oil supply, which crippled their military and economy. Then decided attacking the US was a good idea despite not being able to attack any of their manufacturing plants.

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>>32564163
Japan had, and arguably still does, have this mentality that a war can be finished in one massive, all or nothing battle. That's what ships like the Yamato and Musashi were for.

When the US never gave Japan the final battle they were waiting for the big white elephants that were their battleships simply sat and rusted, or were sank in suicide missions.

>>32564267
>Philippine sea
>Japanese naval air rebuilt from the 2 years of attrition.
>gone in a single day.
>Japanese naval air wiped out and never recovered.

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>>32564291
>1944
>War continues for another year

The Turkey Shoot may have crippled Japan's carrier fleet but the Imperial Navy still had it's surface fleet.

Hell, the empty carriers still had some use as bait later on in the war and nearly won Japan the Battle Off Samar because of it.

>>32564490
IJN without aircover is in a losing proposition.
Task force 58 alone would have been a handful for the entire combined IJN surface fleet circa 1944/45
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Carrier_Task_Force

>>32564725
Only if you discount the fact IJN was more experienced, and had better ships than the USN.

>>32563990

I wish Japan had just subjugated all of mainland China and and massacred it's inhabitants, forgetting about the rest of Asia. They would have a whole lot of lebensraum and access to vast amounts of resources. The country would be a whole lot less polluted and the dogs would be safe too.

>>32563990
>beating

Under what circumstances?

Attack on Pearl harbor is to cripple USN pacific fleet long enough that they've already established themselves in the SEA and sue for peace. Had the aircraft carriers were there in during the fateful day, I would say that the japs would either get their peace or the war would drag on beyond 1945

It was stupid and basically all the top brass in IJN (which was primarily western educated) as well the western-educated high ranking IJA officers thought the same thing too, but the Kwangtung Army, which dominated the IJA, the newspapers and basically japanese peerage, thought Japan could beat the US with sheer willpower bushido spirit alone

Basically this section of japanese imperial military had deluded themselves, thinking that curbstomping China and Russia (which were traditional superpower) made them superior to everyone, including the US

>>32563990
Short Answer - Yes (remember Japan Goal was not domination of US but Cease Fire/Peace Agreement)
3rd Wave at Pearl Harbor
Battle of Savo Island
First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal
Second Naval Battle of GuadalCanal

Battle off Samar (Taffy 3) Gets honorable mention. Defeat here would've allowed IJN free reign to nearly unguarded Troop and Supply Transports at Leyte Gulf. While defiantly impactful it's primary effect would've only been a prolonging of the war at this point with the IJN Air Wings already being decimated.

>>32563990
no it can only annoy Americas imperial possessions

>>32564216
>>32564267
Should have backed off our pet chinks if they wanted their oil back.

>>32564232
>>32564216
an embargo on trade was in place too
.eg no metal or ball bearings for them

>>32564203
Their economy crippled by an embargo from the US, they had hoped to make a big enough strike at Pearl Harbor to make shitting on Japan's turf a very costly matter for US.
So they hoped US would not want to go into the war, lift the embargo, maybe ask for something small in return... except US was itching to go into the war.

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>>32564725
I'm not arguing that the IJN was doomed once it lost it's air branch. The point is that even with a vulnerable fleet of warships the IJN still functioned to provide bombardment support as well as supply and troop transport. The fleet didn't just disappear after the Turkey Shoot.

>>32564767
Japs got stuck in China and that whole invasion is why we sanctioned them in the first place.

China would be in much better hands if western colonies or American influence was in charge. Japan's industrialization was impressive for the time but was still far behind the likes of Europe or America.

Granted we did kind of shit on the Japs during WW1 when they wanted to have an equality clause in the treaty of Versailles and we said no because of colonial mudskips getting uppity. Asia used to be western aligned, hell its how they modernized and got cancerous political doctrines like communism in the first place.

>>32564490
Except their surface fleet was pretty much taken out after the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October of 1944. They never used their surface fleet to ever again engage the USN and would only do stupid shit like send the Yamato to its death for no reason whatsoever. Whatever other ships they had would just get bombed by air power while they sat in port.

The only reason why the war dragged on was that the US actually had to take the time to liberate and push the Japanese out of the Philippines, Taiwan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa on land. Their naval power was all but gone by the end of 1944.

>>32564749
>Better ships
You are aware that Task Force 58 consisted of the brand new Essex-class carriers, Iowa-class Battleships, and the whole array of cruisers and destroyers that individually had more anti-air power than any of Japan's ships right? Better ships my ass. Especially since The USN kicked the IJN's ass with their older ships in 1942 BEFORE those came into service.

>>32564811
>Iowa better than the Yamato
Yes compare a Battlecruiser+ to a real battleship.

Idk about an all out victory, but a stalemate would have been possible had they been able to hold Iwo Jima

>>32564811
>Except their surface fleet was pretty much taken out after the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October of 1944.

The point still remains, the Turkey Shoot was I'm June, Leyte was in October. And Ten-Go was in 1945. Japan never got that decisive, final battle it was preparing for.

>>32564203
Also Japan hoped to knock out the US carrier fleet in a surprise attack. Carriers were the key to controlling the pacific, they're also expensive and take a lot of time and resources to build. If they'd knocked out the US carriers, japan would have pretty much had free reign of the pacific for 2-3 years, enough time to gobble up lots of island territories and establish new supplies of oil. They were doomed when they failed to destroy those carriers during the pearl harbor attack.

>>32564819
>Actually trying to argue that the Yamato is better than an Iowa on /k/
We've had this discussion so many times. There's other people that can probably explain it better than me. But
>Iowa is a fast battleship compared to Yamato's slow ass
>Iowa has a better fire control system that could accurately hit more targets than the Yamato ever could
>Yamato has shitty anti-aircraft.

Arguing Iowa vs Yamato is beside the point anyway. Two battleships were never going to face off and had been relegated to short bombardment and anti-aircraft protection for the carriers. The mere fact that Yamato was useless throughout the whole war already demonstrates how much of a waste a big ship like her was.

Japan was already over extended by Papua and were beaten back by Australia. So the answer is no. However their plan wasn't to beat the US, it was to force a resolution to their embargo and control the sea in the Pacific

>>32564845
American's had horrible FC systems. Radar was completely untested, and their optical FC was worse than the Japanese.

>>32564203
Yamato is an overrated as fuck commander who is lucky he was assassinated when he was in order to preserve what was left of his reputation.

>>32564267
>Japan had, and arguably still does, have this mentality that a war can be finished in one massive, all or nothing battle.

To be fair that was actually true for late 19th and early 20th century naval warfare due to how refueling ships worked. America thought the same thing hence why the Panama Canal was built in the first place.

>>32564834
From your post I got that you were implying that the IJN was still a threat after Philippine Sea and that was the reason the war extended for a year into 1945.

As I said, it wasn't Japan's naval power that stopped the US from winning the war earlier, it was the land battles. So I don't really know what you're trying to claim here.

>>32564863

tbph Yamato was ALWAYS against a war with America and only continued on in his command because his SAMURAI honor wouldn't allow him to resign.

>>32564777
7s of truth.

>>32563990
>Could Japan have had any chance of beating the USA anytime between 1939 to 1945?
Easily if they were a little more lucky before/during Mid 1942 or if the US carriers had been in dock at Pearl Harbor

Not total conquest but the US would have been cucked out of the Pacific.

>>32564862
>America had horrible FC systems
What the fuck am I reading here? The US had better fire control than the Japanese as early as 1942 as seen in Washington vs Kirishima.

Fast forward to 1944 and you have almost all ships attached with radar and fire control and you see them completely knocking out Japan's aircraft from the sky with their fire control and also be able to hit IJN ships more accurately in surface action as seen in shit like Surigao Strait or Samar where the destroyers were hitting the bridges of ships.

>>32564887
>IJN sinks US Navy
>1941 Royal Navy is starting to mop up Germans
>Air gap is narrow, less ships are needed in the Atlantic
>Royal Navy is sent to protect Australia

>>32564894
>RN doing literally anything in the Pacific more than 5 seconds after Dec. 7th 1941
What the fuck am I reading?

>>32564892
I don't understand why you would even reply to this tard >>32564862. Your sperging out like someone trying to explain to a creationist that the world wasn't created in 7 days. Or to a no guns that banning guns =/= lower crime.

>>32563990
In my opinion? Yes. I don't think that total war was guaranteed in a conflict until Japan went full retard and made a surprise attack on American soil. What Japan needs to do in order to win is to fight a clean war and trounce the American fleet until America loses the will to fight. Japan cannot afford to build hatred by committing atrocities or sneak attacks. Hell, they probably shouldn't attack anything on American soil. The Panama canal might be a valid target.

So funnily enough, Japan's basic strategic thought was correct. Japan just needed to win several decisive battles until America becomes unwilling to pay the cost to keep trying. Unfortunately for Japan, in our time line they did the one thing that made it so that America would not stop.

How would I go about it? Pearl Harbor would never happen. Hell, I wouldn't even attack America until they declared war on me. Instead, I would attack British and Dutch holdings only. Maybe French as well, but that's up for debate. By doing so, I create a situation where America has to declare war on me in order to preserve the empires of other nations. One thing you've got to realize is that at the time, a lot of Americans DESPISED colonialism and empires. So while America will probably end up declaring war on me (Japan) within a month or two because it is in America's strategic interests to prevent me from getting too powerful, as I would be with British and Dutch resources. However, America is starting a war that has a fairly unpopular premise to begin with, and enough defeats might very well cause Americans to no longer desire to spend their sons' lives to preserve Britain's empire.

The US will eventually outproduce and kill me. My goal is to crush their will to fight before they reach critical mass.

>>32564894
The RN was needed where it was. There's a reason there were very few RN ships in the Pacific in OTL.

>>32564871
I think we're having two separate debates here. My past few posts have been about how the IJN didn't just go and disappear after the Turkey Shoot and how Japan's doctrine of that 'final, end-all' battle never happened. You seem to be debating about their combat viability post Leyte.

>>32564267
>When the US never gave Japan the final battle they were waiting for
What is the battle of Midway for 500, Alex.

>>32564203
t Yamamoto and his friends, and the world.

>>32564863
>I don't know what I'm talking about.

>>32564863
>Yamato
>a person
Come back when you have a fucking clue what you're talking about

>>32564203

They made a goddamn mistake, thats why.

Freedom aint free

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>>32564203
Desperate times do not call for stupid tactics, but they are often met with them.

>>32565010
USN BTFO

>>32564862
>American's had horrible FC systems.
uhh, what? Iowa -class ships' original mechanical ballistic computers allowed for the same level of accuracy that even modern (unguided-) artillery with seven decades' worth of technological advancement can't quite surpass (as in Iowa class's fire control was about as accurate as one can get with "dumb" munitions), I was honestly astonished when I heard just how accurate the fire of Iowa class' main batteries was, provided the crew knew what they were doing (I am FO -team member in an Army infantry unit.)

>>32565013
You might want to reread that again

>American victory
>The IJN's force consisting of battleships and cruisers lost to a force of destroyers
>The Yamato alone weighed more than all of Taffy 3 combined
>Still gets BTFO

>>32565013
>Result: American victory
>USN BTFO
You're a special kind of stupid.

>>32563990
Yes
If they had destroyed 2 or more of the 4 carriers than they could easily have taken Midway and threatened Hawaii and certainly could have cut off Australia with Guadlcanal

>>32564203
>>32564216
>>32564232
>>32564787
>>32564839
All of these are partly right but don't paint the entirely correct picture
IJN knew they they couldn't beat the US in a long war and yes, the oil embargo made the Japs angry and hurt their economy but the biggest reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was the Germans

Germany had Britain contained, and were beating the soviets all the way to Moscow. Japanese leadership was under the assumption that Germany was about to mop up moscow and take control of the oil fields in the Caucasus.
If Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, the US also has to declare war on germany, and then somehow manage to fight Japan and Germany with only a battered UK as a major ally and a German war machine supplied with as much oil as they could want.

Japan was hoping to attack the US, make us rebuild our fleet, and then hope we'd decide fighting both countries at the same time wasn't worth it and sue for peace.

>>32564892
Why didn't Washington fire before Kirishima put her searchlights on?
Sure there are other cases where radar allowed firing when enemy ship wasn't visible, but it doesn't seem like radar had so much to do in that battle.
I think the best night tactic was to flare enemy ships with floatplanes like the Japanese did few times in earlier war. The radars on many older ships were still quite bad.

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>>32565083
Because Washington had lost South Dakota earlier in the night. Washington had been tracking Kirishima on her radar for a while. But the crew couldn't tell whether it was South Dakota or an enemy ship because radar doesn't magically tell you what ship the blip is and didn't want to risk friendly fire. So when Kirishima put on its spotlights towards South Dakota, it didn't have any more hesitation to open fire.

And radar is directly linked to fire control. It's not only just used for locating the enemy, but it also helps the guns move and pinpoint where the shells will land with fire correction after each salvo. This is how the Kirishima ended up getting hit with 20+ 16-inch shells even though most of the crew on Washington thought they missed most of them or hit around 6-7 shells.

A chance? Yes
A chance that was even big enough to matter? No

>>32564203
Because we weren't gonna look the other way and allow/fuel their imperial dickery.

>>32565175
>16 inch shells, pummel the hell out of the hull

>5 inch shells, go for the bridge and command structures

Damn that is impressive

Why didn't Japan attack only the UK's Pacific holdings and avoid attacking America?

Surely that would have given them the oil they needed.

>>32565044
Midway doesn't threaten Hawaii. Do you even know where or what those islands are?

>>32564214
Without a threat to the American heartland I dont see any reason that would of happened. Japan would of run rampant longer, but it was a forgone conclusion

>>32565013
>A battlegroup consisting of two Yamato-class BBs and every other remaining heavy-gun boat in the IJN is routed by three ballsy Fletcher DDs
>USN BTFO

>>32567409
>three ballsy DDs and 500 aircraft
ftfy

>>32564772

> Battle off Samar (Taffy 3) Gets honorable mention. Defeat here would've allowed IJN free reign to nearly unguarded Troop and Supply Transports at Leyte Gulf

Not even close

There was still Taffy 1 and Taffy 2 in the area. Center force would have to power through those as well.

After that, there was still Jesse Oldendorf's 7th fleet, which had 6 modernized Battleships, 8 cruisers, and 30 destroyers. This same fleet had just wiped out Nishimura's fleet the night before. This fleet was in a position to move north and protect the landing ships and troop transports on relatively short notice.

If Kurita powered through Taffy 3 and continued south, he would have gotten bogged down by the two more escort carrier groups and the considerable battleship force under Oldendorf.

Then he would have been pincered by the Iowa/New Jersey task group moving south with 6 new Battleships, 8 cruisers, and some 40 destroyers.

The IJN would have gotten it's kantai kessen, but it would be them being smacked around by over twice their number of overall newer and more effective battleships.

>>32567461
>you will never see twelve battleships gangbanging a poor Yamato
Fucking Taffy 3

>>32567461
Never said it wouldn't of been a slaughter or any of them would've survived. Simply stating if they managed to reach the Landing/Supply ships it would've had a significant impact in loss of men and material for the Islands Campaigns, thus prolonging the war.

>>32564203
Because Yamamoto threatened to quit if they didn't go through with his "brilliant plan"

>>32563990
>Japan lets Yamamoto go when he threatens to quit
>Japan gives bach dutch east indies, or whichever territory the US wanted in order to resupply oil (it was only 1 territory, big whoop)
>Japan maintains uneasy non-aggression with US, while buying oil
>Japan spreads through China and India, forces the navy and the army to work together (they often refused to)
>Once firmly holding most of asia, Japan invades Australia
>By the time the US declare war, Japan is powerful enough, and has a large enough army and so much experience they are a decent threat to the US
>Since the US hasn't entered the was until when Japan invade australia, the US hasn't become the production powerhouse that it did (They didn't even start building tanks until 1941 / 1942, this would be much later if they didn't enter the war)
>Japan, now with an overwhelming carrier fleet annihilates the US fleet (dont forget the Japanese pioneered the use of carriers as a primary weapon - all other navies thought that was a stupid idea - even some of the IJN)
>With US fleet destroyed in the pacific, Japan on production par with the US (who hasn't yet kicked into uber war production mode), the Japanese prepare for their pièce de résistance - The invasion of the US
>Japanese forces much more experienced than US, backed up by entire IJA
>US West coast is invadeded, pretty much second sino-japanese war all over again
>Japanese eventually peter out, but hold most of the west coast
>Russia invades Japan after pleas from the US to open a second front, and the Japanese turn their attention towards manchuria

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>>32567821
>Japan gives bach dutch east indies
Bach is pleased

>>32563990
If they were better able to thwart the island hopping technique, then they could have had a good chance at taking the Aleutian Islands and later down the road, Hawaii

>>32567875
By the time the US is island hopping the'ye already on the back foot. Trick is to focus on asia and india and try to avoid US as long as possible (we all know US tries to stay out of world wars as long as possible - profits are good, and deaths are not)

>>32567426
> 500 aircraft
Some fighters that could only strafe with .50s aren't exactly dangerous

>>32567754

They never would have gotten close because there was still too much in the way.

Oldendorf's battleships can't hurt Yamato too much, but their 16 and 14 inch guns can mince the Nagato and two Kongos, not to mention the cruisers and destroyers.

The 10 IJN destroyers would have gotten swarmed and sunk by 40 destroyers, opening up the battleships for torpedo attack.

All the while there's still 450 US planes in the air, and increasing over time as more land based planes joined the fight. John S Mccain was also rushing south with his 3 Fleet Carriers, and if those got into striking range, game over.

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Actually they did, they had so many advantages but completely fucked it up. I recommend anyone here who likes strategy games to play the "East Wind Rain" WW2 scenario game in Civilization 2. It gave me some of my most memorable gaming experiences ever playing as Japan. Although the US has a massive industrial advantage, Japan's military advantage in 1941 was far superior and was more than enough to conquer most of Asia. Playing as Japan will make you appreciate just how important it is not to waste your advantages like Japan ended up doing IRL and playing as the US will make you realize just how difficult it was to build up a fleet powerful enough to defeat them.

The Japanese were IDIOTIC for sending their fleet to Midway, a worthless island in the middle of the Pacific. They should have put all their effort into driving the British out of the Indian Ocean and then taking over arabian/persian oil fields, they would have won he war simply by cutting off mid-east oil

>>32568478

The middle east wasn't a big oil producer during WW2. They knew they had the fields, but the infrastructure to extract wasn't there, because the Great Depression reduced worldwide oil use and you could not justify return on investment.

in 1940, the largest oil producer by far was the United States, which accounted for about 60% of the world's oil production.

Not having middle-east oil literally did not matter, because the US could increase production to cover for the lack of it. Going after the Dutch East indies was the correct decision, since they produced more oil than the Middle East in 1940.

>>32568478
Blame yamamoto for being too bold, and blame the lack of cooperation between the Japanese army and Navy.

If the IJA and IJN had worked together in unison, it would be unstoppalbe in the 1930s and 1940s. If they focused on China, India and middle east, they'd be a pacific power eclipsing the US

>>32567391
Japan would have run rampant for years before American shipbuilding ramped up to replace the loss of all of our carriers, and have had the necessary staging ground to invade Hawaii.

>>32568478
Japan was idiotic for only sending 4 of 6 carriers to Midway because they underestimated how many America still had.

Spiler alert: knowing about WWII doesn't make you a history "buff". It just makes you a basic fuccboi. Same goes with the Civil War.

In fact, claiming you like history while only knowing about wars makes you irredeemable shiggydoo

>>32563990
No. Even the Japs knew that. They wanted us to sue for peace and let them control the Western Pacific.

Then the Navy and Marines slapped some American dicks in their face for bombing Pearl Harbor. Then the Army Air Force dropped a couple nooks on those double gooks. America wins, again.

Basically.

>>32568006
>not playing the superior War in the Pacific

>>32568707

The other two were out of commission. One was too damaged, the other lost most of it's aircrew.

>>32564749
Circa 44/45, greater experience helped the Japanese not a bit. And you seriously think the IJN had better ships in a class to class comparison?

>>32565013
Were you born retarded? Or did your mother drop you when you were a child?

>>32567912
>Some fighters that could only strafe with .50s aren't exactly dangerous
Only the first wave of aircraft launched in an emergency were not properly armed. The rest had bombs and torps, and they caused most of the damage to Jap cruisers.

>>32567912
Tell that to the deck and bridge crews.

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>>32568595
>If the IJA and IJN had worked together in unison, it would be unstoppalbe in the 1930s and 1940s.
Yeah that was the only thing preventing Japan from being the strongest force in the world.

>>32568689
And once that shipbuilding got into pace, Japan would of been beaten just like OTL. The US would of have no reason to go to megotiations if there was no threat to the continental US.

>>32563990

The Axis powers were a package deal.

In order for Japan to win their part of the war, Germany and Italy would have had to succeed in their parts as well. The only way for Japan to win is if Germany and Italy reach their objectives in Europe and then quickly send Japan reinforcements. Either they all win or they all lose.

>>32569188

idiotic, the very reason that Germany allied itself with Japan was in hopes that Japan would help *them*

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>>32564203
Hope was to cripple the US Pacific fleet long enough for Japan to solidify its holds and sue for peace.

The US retaining isolationist sentiments was a big part of it. US wartime propaganda was big on suppressing isolationist memes.

It is the memes, it was always the memes.

>>32565067
>If Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, the US also has to declare war on germany,

Wrong. There was no prior US agreement to declare war on the Axis as a group.

Germany OTOH had agreed to fight jointly with the Japs, so Hitler declared on the US.

>>32569308
Germany was already mostly at war with the USA in the Atlantic. Not really neutral when providing material support to UK/Russia.

>>32569308
Hitler had also agreed that he wouldn't invade Russia.

>>32569389
providing material isn't the same as at war.

>>32569389
America is going to trade with whoever she damn well please.

Hell FDR was trying to think of a way to get US to declare war on Germany after pearl harbor......Hitler beat them to it.

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>>32569227
Also the US was seen as weak and shitty soldiers. A lot of posters ITT seem to forget that the worst defeat the US has ever suffered in military history was in the battle of the Philippines. Macarthur utterly fucked up and lost 150,000 soldiers to the japanese.

>>32567210

Because that would be smart

>>32564910
/thread

>>32564203
they thought they could knock us out from the Pacific, and then we wouldnt be in a position to oppose them AND the Nazis/Italians in Europe.

They bet the farm that the Americans would back off from the Pacific if they displayed a show of force and destroyed a lot of our Pacific Fleet.

They were very, very mistaken. they had no hope of fighting us toe to toe. We had every advantage for long-term fighting. We out produced them. we had more of every resource. Our units were better equipped, better supplied, and had much more mobility via naval deployment capability. They were stretched trying to maintain an empire with what we would regard as light armor and light infantry, all while with comparatively minimal resources., while the Americans had allies in China, later the USSR, and Australia/NZ.

Almost from the beginning, the war was over.

>>32569503
There was only one "American" division which was also 90% flip.

>>32565175
What was the range of that engagement? How far can WW2 era US ships could discriminate between shots that would go to the superstructure and to the hull like that?

>>32563990
> FDR is killed by Giuseppe Zangara
> Huey Long receives more popular support
> Comintern pushes for American Revolution in face of Great Depression
> Civil War breaks out
> Nips do what Nips do

It reads like a shitty Clancy Novel but that's the best shot Hirohito is going to get.

>>32568006
>Civ 2
>a valid WW2 simulator
oh wait you're serious

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>>32570574
Well there's HOI4 too if you want something more serious. My point stands, you can win as Japan in these games. Also, the US had a cheat code by breaking Japan's cryptography, shit like Midway was game breaking.

>>32570666
>crypto
>a cheat code
the US crypto divisions were the biggest surviving parts of the intelligence apparatus to survive the post-WW1 cutback and interwar reductions, and they fucking carried the US intelligence community through the interwar years and WW2

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>>32570730
I know. Makes you wonder how the hell they missed Pearl Harbor unless it was intentional.

>>32564203
The Russo-Japanese war filled them with suicidal overconfidence and they figured a series of decisive defeats would get America to back off and give them a free hand in East Asia.

>>32570878
>Russo Japanese War
>a conflict almost forty years ago filled them with confidence

I find that unlikely since the Japanese got so thoroughly wrecked at Khalkin Gol only a couple of years prior.

>>32564819
When the "battlecruiser+" has such better FCS that it has greater effective range and the mobility to control the range, then yes.

Yamato was just as vulnerable to Iowa's guns as Iowa was to Yamato's, but Iowa would hit first and control the whole engagement with better rate of fire, accuracy, and mobility.

>>32570972
The Navy and Army were very much two different groups within the Japanese state and held their own opinions on the direction Japanese expansion should head. Furthermore, the convincing Soviet victory at Khalkin Gol cost the army more than a few troops, it more or less settled Japanese expansionist ambitions to go South under the Navy's plan. The Navy, having a strong record against westerners, due to the Russo-Japanese war, had the confidence of the state.

>>32564887
If you completely annihilate the US Navy in the Pacific at Pearl Harbor, and none of the wrecks are recoverable, the US has superiority again by mid December of 1942.

Demolish it again, mid November, and by December 1943, we've got a bigger navy than all Japan's First Day strength, plus her whole wartime production.

Japan's whole strategy was "LOL, those American Devils have no stomach for war"

They thought this because we hadn't taken over all of South and Central America.

>>32570788
>Japan's gonna attack us
>Are they gonna go for the very large US protectorate which bases several US units and ships located between them and the nearest source of oil (which they REALLY need) or a major US naval base most of the way across the Pacific?
It would be like if Japan started the Russo-Japanese War by sending their fleet out to Europe and using it to attack the Russian Black Sea Fleet instead of Port Arthur.

>>32568689
The US built more tons of warships in 1943 than Japan did in the entire war.

>>32567821
War plan orange.

Their only hope was to inflict stinging defeats on the US that would cause a change in administration that would result in the US suing for peace.

Much like the Germans vs the USSR, the attacking axis power had no chance in a pitched existential dance of total war and had a terribly stupid short-term strategy that only rattled the hornets nest further.

>>32570666
That sounds good and all, Satan, but HOI4's ai is as smart as my dog in terms of tactics. All you need to do is open a second front and you win automatically.

>>32567821
>Japan
>Holding soil in the mainland US
Pick one

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>>32564203
>IJN aicraft strength 30
>Lost 52
I'm impressed desu

Everyone forgetting that the US cracked Japan's naval codes by 1942 and their diplomatic codes before pearl harbor and even before considering everything else had a huge fucking intelligence advantage.

>>32564910

I've argued this point as well, attack the British and Dutch and hope for the best. The US never had plans to defend the European possessions in the Pacific.

That being said, there is no scenario where Japan could "crush America's will to fight". Any major victory Japan could score in a cold war scenario would have the same effect as Pearl Harbor, at that point it's game over.

>>32571181
>haha lol let's fight a total sea war for 2 years with no navy
what did he mean by this?

>>32564214
This is incorrect.

>>32564203
They wanted the Dutch East indies for the oil, but needed to take the Philippines from us first. Thus, they attacked Pearl Harbor so that the U.S. navy could not intervene when they invaded the Philippines.

>>32564863
>assassination
When did this meme come about? It was an act of war during wartime. The lightning pilots weren't "assassins".

They were soldiers. Ambush yes. Assassination no.

>>32570666

>HOI4
>Not based HOI3

>>32567821
>Japan holds mainland China and the US west coast
Are you pretending to act retarded? There is no scenario in which mainland China is held. the warring factions in China would give the Japanese so much hell their land forces could not focus elsewhere. We are talking about an insurgency in a gigantic land mass with a huge amount of people. This isn't even covering how far behind the Japanese war machine would still be in production. Spinning up manufacturing isn't easy, even if you take major resources there is a turn around time. The Aussies also would not quietly into the night so there are two major population centers the Japanese would have to control before they even touch the USA. Then crossing the Pacific would mean they'd have to stage a landing on the US who even I'd it had a a large amount of troops bogged down in Europe still has enough men and material to stage a massive fight. Also Canada. Japan was never gonna make it to US soil they just wanted us out of the Pacific

>>32577551
IH and by US soil I mean continental.

>>32563990

Had they caught our aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbor and won at Midway, they would have accomplished their goals of keeping the American Navy out of the Pacific, or at least critically restricted its ability to launch a counter-offensive.

>>32564203
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Expedition

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>>32563990
No.

Read up about war plan orange.
Just came in here to say that those Japanese tanks look remarkably like Chibi Tiger Hs

According to Justin Trudeau, the Japanese won.

>if you kill your enemy, they win

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>>32577601
This is a great movie about it, just watched it last night and recommend it to anyone interested in the war. The politicians were so scared shitless about the japs invading the west coast that if they won at Midway, they would've gotten what they always wanted from Washington - a peace settlement. And like they said, the US was insanely lucky at Midway.

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>>32563990
No one will know for sure but if the Japanese unleashed their "Cherry Blossoms at Night" Plan or began to weaponize their plague virus, the Pacific War would have been very different and perhaps, a living nightmare.

>>32564203
The upper echelons of the military were honestly retarded

>>32564216
>2. we had an oil embargo on them which was about to completely destroy their economy,
[Citation needed]

>>32578759
The US at Midway had better intelligence, more planes, better AAA, better designed carriers and the same number of air strips as the Japanese (3 carrier and 1 island vs 4 carriers). The only real advantage the Japanese had was superior training, an advantage largely nullified by the face the Americans held the initiative.

Midway was a victory of superior planning and numbers, not luck.

>>32578969
Embargo was due to Japan invading China. US slapped it down because Japan was being expansionist like fuck.

>>32577365

>HoI3
>Not based HoI2

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>>32563990

One issue I never see brought up was Japans lack of engineering manpower

They simply didnt have enough aeronautical engineers to design and upgrade aircraft in the time frame needed for WW2. The US though had a massive amount of engineers, to the point where a lot of them were wasted on aircraft that were never ordered into production.

This is a big part of the reason why the zero and other Japanese aircraft lagged behind the americans, and why the Japanese were never really able to field those planes successors in any substantial numbers.

I would guess that they had a lack of engineers in other areas as well, but I only know a lot about aircraft.

>>32579590
>that pic
>yfw the US was droning foreigners as far back as WW2

>>32575324
It's not, "let's fight sea war for 2 years with no assets", it's "if the other side gets unrealistically lucky for 23 months straight, the course of the war won't materially change"

>>32579138
My point was that their economy was still functioning after a year under our embargo. That's an excuse for Japan's attack.

>>32570423

iirc the range was roughly 9000yards in the dead of night.

This is essentially point blank range for the 16inch guns on the Washington.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Ch%C5%8Dkai

>During her approach to the US escort carriers, Chōkai was hit amidships, starboard side, most likely by the sole 5 in (127 mm) gun of the carrier White Plains.[1] While the 20 lb (9.1 kg) payload of the shell could not pierce the hull, it set off the eight deck-mounted Japanese Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes, which were especially volatile because they contained pure oxygen, in addition to their 1,080 lb (490 kg) warheads.

Holy shit, either Chokai had really bad luck or White Plains was the luckiest ship ever.

>>32570666
It's a game, anon, of course there's a chance that you could win. It's balanced to be fun, not realistic.

>>32565175
>Washington, undetected, managed to evade the Japanese fleet, and at midnight fired on Kirishima from 5,800 yards (5,300 m), point blank range for Washington's 16-inch/45-caliber guns, which were easily capable of penetrating Kirishima's armor at their maximum range.[32][34] Kirishima was hit by at least nine primary and seventeen secondary battery projectiles, destroying her bow 14-inch turrets, jamming her rear 14-inch turrets and steering, setting her superstructure afire, and causing the battleship to list 18 degrees to starboard.
Holy shit.

>>32563990
41-42 was the best moment. They blew it

I can't help but feel bad for the Japanese people. It was clear early on that the war was a lost cause, but the military's bushido honor bullshit kept it going and nearly drove everyone to oblivion.

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>>32581696
And it's funny how they're now the complete opposite today and have been reduced to a bunch of NEETs fapping to anime

>>32582855
well their left-wing politicians seem to be the most anti-JSDF people on this planet, perhaps these cucked politicians are (partially-) to blame

>>32563990
Yes
>>32564203
They thought it was a good idea at the time although some opposition from the inside

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I fantasize about USA joining axis in WW2. Japan and USA could have allied big time. If Japan and USA allied, USA all access to Japan's asian exotic resources like plants wood rubber etc and Japan get American industry with trade through the Pacific, all USA had to do and Japan too is be nice to each other and agree to share the Pacific.
Also if USA helped Germany in Axis which makes more sense to help Britain because they helped Britain before already so lets help Germany this time, then Europe won WW2 against Britain and socialist is also defeated, Imagine USA and German troops capturing Moscow together such a beautiful sight. I love this alternative time line. And then this what the world would become eventually.

>>32583659
No way that would've happened. Americans hated slanteyes even worse than nazis did.