Why there's no French 5th gen aircraft project? Apart

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>>32332961
Colored

>>32332961
Money.

Also that thing does not look very maneuverable, needs ... canards.

>>32332995
Mirage 2000 is almost the same design.
The front part is lighter than back, so the mass will be centered slightly in the back, which gives it the manœuvrabilité it needs.

They can easily spend a part of money on this project

>>32332961
The only european countries that are pursuing stealth fighter planes ae Sweden and Turkey

Sweden may gonna do follow up on stealth gripen while Turkey is basically had to pick up the pieces after failed attempt imon co-developing the KFX fighter plane with Korea

>>32333007
The eternal Gook roach alliance is the most powerful force in the world.

>>32333007
>T*rks
>European

>>32333033
>sweden
>france
>european

2 can play that game

>>32333033
>>32333043

Stop this, we're here to talk about weapons. Not politics.

>>32333064
When it comes to fighter projects, they're one and the same. Should have realised this by now.

>>32333007
Why did the joint-production failed?

they don't have a 4th gen yet

>>32333082
Rafale is frequently overrated, but it's definitely 4th gen

>>32333076
It's not even in production yet.

Both countries wanted a locally-developed replacement for the bulk of aging F-4s,F-5s and early-bloc F-16s in their inventory. Turkey was looking at up to 50:50 deal with South Korea, while Korea was only willing to give 20 percent deal to them. So they went separate way and Korea had to choose indonesia, with inferior technical knowhow, as partners to spread the cost

>>32332961
>Hello I'm a 15 years old frenchtard shitposting on /k/ and believing propaganda as well as "muh frogs can't muh 5th gen" bullshit.

Get. Out.
But before you do, search the net for these terms :
>Plan d'Etudes Amont (PEA) DEDIRA, MELBAA, TRAGEDAC.
You can even wander around on the site of the ONERA for more enlightment. you will discover your fellow frenchmen aren't that lame, contrarily to what the eternal anglo wants you to believe.

Also, what is SCAF/FCAS ? What is Lancaster house treaty ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancaster_House_Treaties_(2010)
Seems the frogs aren't that bad if britbongs want a cooperation with them over what will be the future of aerial warfare, right ?

Last but not least, read some of this shit from your fellow frogs
http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=193057
Pics included for free about what sort of stuff Dassault was looking at more than 20 years ago.

Other than that your design sucks ass and makes zero sense.
>Fucking give me the job already.
Non.

>>32333105
Hello schizophrenic froglet!

For future reference by the way, people deal with France in joint projects because they're forced to, not by choice.

>>32332961
There is no 5th gen fighter from France because your economy is dead and you have no viable threats in you sphere of influence.

Britain is in on the F-35 through buddy's and also likely extensive STOVL experience that they could input to the F-35.

>>32333096
Rafale is 4++++++++++++++ gen m8

>>32333105
This is why being French makes me anxious, I have to live with depressed and critical fuckers like this all the time.

It's a fucking joke you little shit.
>>32333128
Ok

>>32333214
>This is why being French makes me anxious, I have to live with depressed and critical fuckers like this all the time.

You don't like being French because the internet exists?

Just imagine trying to explain that one to your ancestors.

Developing a "5th gen" aircraft alone is very expensive and risky, and France isn't willing to put the money up for a post Cold War project. Especially because the export prospects (to offset the investment) are highly uncertain.

There are still quite a few European countries that have not opted for the F-35 (besides France there is; Germany, Spain, Poland, Sweden), so a collaborative project is possible, but they'll need to start soon.

>>32333228
We (Spain) will most probably join the F35 project at a later time, our carrier supports it and the Harriers are getting old. There has been some talks about a joint bid with the Navy and Air force recently.

>>32333116
>Hello schizophrenic froglet!
You what m8 ?

>For future reference by the way, people deal with France in joint projects because they're forced to, not by choice.

You can't possibly believe this. Give me a single reason how this would be possible ? Did Sarkozy held Cameron at gunpoint when signing Lancaster house ? Did Giat/Nexter engineers blackmailed Royal Ordnance/BAE guys during 30 years for the CTA40 to be made ?

Were the US forced to work with the french on confined fusion when they built the Lawrence Livermore National Ignition Facility while the french were building the Laser Megajoule ?
They are the only two countries in the world with such a device. And yes it was a joint cooperation on many levels. But that's not on topic.

France has no power to force anyone to do anything with them. It's a broke country on the verge of collapsing into political unstability, if it's not already the case.

Do the french have superpowers or something ?

>>32332961
Because their number one enemy is coming from within.

>>32333007
>Turkroaches
>White
Is mexico also an US state?

>>32333105

>m-muh paper designs from 20 year old powerpoints
>m-muh Rafale upgrades it's more than a 4th gen really!

France has no 5th gen project and is being left behind in terms of air warfare. It's just time for you to accept that is how its gone down. The budget doesn't cover it, there has not been a single actually funded project emerge even in prototyping and everything you're linking is either unrelated, long dead or complete fantasy.

>>32333299

Makes sense, I suppose they'll follow the Italians in making a mixed A & B mixed buy to replace their Hornets and Harriers, while holding onto some updated Typhoons.

>>32333418
>France has no 5th gen project and is being left behind in terms of air warfare.
Future of air warfare in Europe : FCAS/SCAF. Main contractors : France and the UK (believe me I don't like this either)
cheerio bong, you can't have your cheese and eat it.

>It's just time for you to accept that is how its gone down.
Except Dassault are still around and still know how to make planes. Except Snecma are working their asses off on their engine for the french SCAF with very promising results (yes there will be two engines because contrarily to the US we don't cockblock our partners out of their industry, see : RR F136, you're welcome bong)

>The budget doesn't cover it
Everything covering what I mentionned is already budgetised. I never mentionned the fact France would build a manned """"5th gen"""" fighter from scratch either. Just the fact the capability is totally here. You have the guts to consider fucking turkey (topkek) or even Korea (m8 please) can do a 5th gen but France can't ??? Stop smoking weed sir. Just stop it.

>there has not been a single actually funded project emerge even in prototyping.
What is NeuroN ? What is FCAS ?

>and everything you're linking is either unrelated, long dead or complete fantasy.
Learn french, read, and come back.
Dedira = DEmonstrateur de DIscretion pour le RAfale. Litterally "stealthy rafale demonstrator". Duh.
MELBAA = GaN conformal array panels replacing the RBE2 aesa
INCAS = active counter measure.
TRAGEDAC = networking planes to achieve multistatic and mutlisensor detection and localization through deported sensor fusion.

All of these things are related to the """"5th gen"""" meme.

Everything was budgetised more than 5 years ago and is under dev.

Really you should just say out loud
>"I HATE THE FROGS AND I WANT THEM AWAY"
it will be simpler and everyone will understand the message way clearly.

>>32333665

>cheerio bong

I'm American you idiot.

>Future of air warfare in Europe : FCAS/SCAF. Main contractors : France and the UK (believe me I don't like this either)

Which is producing, by all knowledge, a UCAV, not a 5th gen. The UK already bought the F-35 from us because they wanted a 5th gen fighter.

>Except Dassault are still around and still know how to make planes.

Then point me to their 5th gen fighter. Oh wait, none exist.

>Everything covering what I mentionned is already budgetised.

Then please show me their 5th gen project. Oh wait, there is none. Again.

>What is NeuroN ? What is FCAS ?

A UCAV, not a full blown fighter program. The hint that it might constitute a manned program is just that, a hint, but the current outlook is a UCAV.

>Learn french, read, and come back.

They're all for the Rafale, which is in no way shape or form a 5th gen fighter. No matter how much you bitch, whine and cry it will never be one. It's a 4th gen. The US has the Silent Eagle and the Advanced Super Hornet, both of which are the same concept of making a 4th gen more stealthy and interconnected too, but it doesn't make them 5th gens.

>""""5th gen"""" meme.

The envy is palpable.

>>32332961
Can someone explain me what's the difference between 4th and 5th gen?

>>32333790

5th gens include VLO in their base design, internal carriage of weapons, integrated systems (Like how F-35 doesn't need to carry a targeting pod, it has one in the nose), full sensor fusion, extremely powerful information networking, two-way datalinks and a whole host of subtle but important electronic spectrum enhancements over 4th gens.

The best way I've heard it described is, 4th gens are extremely potent fighter jets that can outfight their opponent, but 5th gens have god's eye and the fight is over before anyone even realises they exist.

>>32333870
Is this "god's eye" part of the plane or is it dependant of an external system (satellites, awacs...)?

>>32333790
It's a marketting term covering a corpus of capabilities and features decided by Lockheed Martin and coming from the F-22 program.

The historic basis of it revolves simply around the fact the F-22 is the 5th generation of aircrafts built in the US. And that's all.

1st gen : WW1. wooden planes, no cockpit...
2nd gen : WW2 metalic frames, modern engines
3th gen : 50's to 60's jet engines, radars onboard, first missiles
4th gen : 70's to 80's, advanced engines radars missiles and precision weapons, fly by wire
5th gen : 90's, stealth, networking, fire and forget advanced missiles, multirole, hyper manoeuverability, sensor fusion...

non exhaustive list.

Based on this, and solely on this, LM created a 5th gen marketting brand allowing themselves to cast out foreign and domestic fighters not fitting through this. It works well, since we saw the appearance of terms like "4.5th gen" or even "4.75th gen"... to describe upgraded 4th gen fighters while keeping them out of the sacred temple of 5th gen.

You can be sure when everyone will brand their planes 5th gen the F-35 will become 6th gen.

Now the facts :

5th gen originally was for LM about
- high passive stealth through shape, coating, surface condition, low IR returns
- super manoeuverability through advanced flight control system
- advanced radar with low probability of intercept
- weapons carried in internal bays
- datafusion from sensors
- multirole capability
- supercruise (no afterburner to pass or keep a mach 1+ speed)

However, and that's when the joke begins, if any plane looks squarish, it appears to everyone as "must be stealthish" and thus is considered 5th gen, ans thus more capable than any 4th gen, which is a total nonsense.

To add to the infamy, some features yesterday seemingly obligatory, are nowadays optional : the F-35 can't supercruise (its engine can't in fact) but is considered 5th gen anyway, for example.

>>32333938

Part of the plane.

https://theaviationist.com/?p=40658

"I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me. In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation. You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation. In the F-35 you just see the God’s eye view of the whole world. It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction. I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon. I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon. Simultaneously I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit. All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional. In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle."

"I got in the airplane and started it up. I was still on the deck and there were apparently other F-35s airborne – I believe USAF, I was not aware. I was a single ship, just supposed to go out and get familiar flying the aircraft. As the displays came alive there were track files and the SA as to what everyone else was doing in the airspace, and I was still on the ground. I mean, I hadn’t even gotten my take-off clearance yet. I didn’t even know where it was coming from. It was coming from another F-35."

You could say that "information dominance" is what defines 5th gen more than anything. Depriving the foe of any information, while having it all yourself. Thats what the "M-muh 4th gen is totally a 5th gen honest!" crowd completely fail to grasp.

>>32333950

[Rafalefag delusion intensifies]

> the F-35 can't supercruise

Yes it can, this has been thoroughly proven in past threads that you've tried to bring this up to shill the Frogplane.

>However, and that's when the joke begins, if any plane looks squarish, it appears to everyone as "must be stealthish" and thus is considered 5th gen

By literally who? There are only two known 5th gens in existence. F-22 and F-35. T-50 is patently not 5th generation, and J-20/J-31 haven't proven shit yet to claim they are.

The only person making arbitrary loopholes is yourself. 5th generation has clear concepts to anyone who isn't desperate to try and get their own plane to 'count as' one. Actually do some reading on what makes F-22 and F-35 different, and then you'll understand why they're considered such a massive step above everything else, Rafale included.

>>32333950
>1st gen : WW1. wooden planes, no cockpit...
>2nd gen : WW2 metalic frames, modern engines
>3th gen : 50's to 60's jet engines, radars onboard, first missiles
>4th gen : 70's to 80's, advanced engines radars missiles and precision weapons, fly by wire
>5th gen : 90's, stealth, networking, fire and forget advanced missiles, multirole, hyper manoeuverability, sensor fusion...
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
It's
>Gen 1: first fighter jets - Sabre, MiG-15, etc
>Gen 2: first radars and missiles - Century Series, MiG-21
>Gen 3: Radar-guided missiles start becoming norm - F-4, MiG-23
>Gen 4: muh F-15, F-16

>>32333968
>It was coming from another F-35
So what displays the plane itself is a piece of a bigger puzzle right?

Too expensive, given the track record of current 5th gen aircraft.
Also, no money because ref00geez

>getting your priorities straight

>>32333790
>>32333950
cont'

You also have to take into account the fact stealth only works against certain radar frequencies or bands. Namely the most used today because it's the most accurate for this job : the X band (8 to 12 gigahertz). Obviously since it's the band used by fighter radars it's very effective.

However, you can achieve detection of an object moving in the air through other means than an X band radar. The L band, notably, can be used to get an inaccurate but useful enough radar return to locate a fighter sized object, thus giving you a precise vector to observe with the help of an aesa radar. That's why the russians and chinese fit L band radars in the wings of their T50 and J20, even the J10 for the chinese.

Passive stealth also isn't the only way to achieve radar discretion, active jamming can be useful too, with active cancellation being the graal in this domain. It works (or is supposed to) through sending a shifted radar return to the emitter, thus rendering the radar unable to precisely tell if something is sending returns at all. This tech is arguably in use on the B2 for example. Best of it is to work effectively, active cancellation only needs its software to precisely know what sort of radar returns your plane sends away. Thus closing the gap between a very stealth plane and one with simple radar cross section reduction measures, which are way cheaper.

In the future, multistatic radars, where sending and receiving can be shared (one plane sends a beam, another receives it) may render passive stealth even less effective than it is today. This has everything to do with networking and getting a code good enough to make several planes share in real time their infos. Currently, the F-35 can network two planes on a patrol, when the final goal would be to network entire squadrons.

>>32333007

Turkroaches aren't Europeans.

>>32332961
IPSALIENS DEHORS, REEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

>>32334331
>Currently, the F-35 can network two planes on a patrol, when the final goal would be to network entire squadrons.
Are you telling me that modern war planes don't share their fucking datas? Just buy them a smartphone for fucks sake!

>>32333007
>The only european countries that are pursuing stealth fighter planes ae Sweden and Turkey

Taranis is designed to evolve into an autonomous A2A platform amongst other things.

>>32332961
>>32332964
Give that two engines, and maybe canards if they're needed, and you've got one sexy design.

>>32333992
>Yes it can
No, it can't, it can maintain supersonic speed for quite a long time without PB AFTER getting up there with PB, but it eventualy gets back to subsonic speed. By your logic each and every plane that can get supersonic only through PB should be considered supercruising during the time it's slowing back to subsonic speed, but then supercruising wouldn't be such a marketing tool if each and every shitty plane out there had it.

>but... but it can do it a LONG time!
Doesn't matter, that's not super cruising by the definition of the term. If you're so obsessed with all the arbitrary brands, bells and whistles that oh so coincidentaly set the F-35 appart from the competition then you have to accept this arbitrary definition as well. The F-35 does not supercruise. By the absolute logic of it, if you need each and every condition ticked to be considered 5th gen, the F-35 is not such a thing.

>>32332961
They spent all their money of Rafales

>>32337125

>Plane is entirely cpaable of reaching supercruise state without afterburners
>Is entirely capable of carrying internal munitions at that speed
>Is entirely capable of releasing munitions at that speed, thus gaining the benefit of being able to supercruise

Yeah, it can supercruise.

I suppose this is the point when you start saying that the Rafale's Mach 1.2 supercruise in which it carries only a couple of short range A2A missiles makes it better than an F-22 or something because there's a gif that says it does.