How come communism produces such rugged shit, or is it just

Russian has always made good weapons, dating from the Schofield clone with .44 Russian.

They had to make weapons which could survive not only in the theater of operation but also in the hands of their conscripts.

Look at their conscripts OP.

Look.

>>32091524
but conscripts are always retards

>>32091529
If it's tard-proof (Or the closest thing to one) it's everything proof.

>>32091529
There is retarded, then there is Russian and no matter what if you give a Russian a Rolls-Royce it will be scrap in a week

>>32091433
Slav guns are always good at doing their intended job.

My only issue with them is that none of them have Picatinny. It's always that weird side mounted bullshit.

Half of the time you have to go to a gunsmith to mount the damn things.

>>32091529
That's the thing. Idiot-proofing isn't easy. That's part of why the SVT-40 failed, it was a prized capture weapon for the Finns and Germans, but the average Soviet conscripts were too stupid to keep it working reliably.

>>32091529

That's his point, dumbass.

>>32091529
The Russian is a special breed of ape.

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>>32091553
They keep making dumber retards

>>32091433
Most western countries assumed they would fight with their standing army (or at least be able to properly train replacements) and equipped their troops accordingly.

Russia's doctrine was that they would use primarily conscripts and equip them with truly idiot proof things.

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>>32091433
No capitalism = no search for monetary profit = better make things that work and last forever.

Or that's at least how it works in Russia, as they also had materials to use, and the rough natural conditions to take into account.

>>32091685
Yup.If only the Soviet Union wasn't a crazy authoritarian state. Might have kept on going making some quality things for the world instead of shit that almost seems to be designed to fail at a certain point so you buy another one.

>>32091529
Exactly. Conscripts in Russia would use their weapons as furniture, hammers, hoes, shovels, cooking appliances, etc. You needed a weapon which could last 20+ years of that.

>>32091529
American conscripts could keep Garand actions and AR systems working in fucking tropical jungles. You try that with Russian conscripts and you'll be out of rifles in a month.

>>32091685
I could see this. There wouldn't really be an incentive to build in planned obsolescence in a Communist country. There'd be no boardroom or shareholders chasing after juicy defense contracts by selling replacement parts for 30 years.

>>32091433
Wish they would make a mount without that hideous side rail

>>32091433
this is my dream weapon if it is in .308

>>32092386
It is. The 54r variant has curvy single stack mags because lolrimlock.

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>>32091524
>>32091529
people give Russian conscripts more flak than they deserve tbqh. I'd argue that the bigger reason why most equipment was designed with ruggedness in mind was to reduce costs for the State. Things falling apart creates extra expense and is to be avoided, there's no reason to engineer obsolescence into your stuff when you're using your own products.

>>32092254
>>32091575
the side rail allows you to mount any optic you'd conceivably need. If you absolutely have to be a contrarian and use something else, use a picatinny adapter that fits on the side rail, there's no reason you should have to take the thing to a gunsmith.

>>32092013
many of the old Soviet companies and design bureaus still exist, and they still produce equipment to GOST specifications. Pic related.

>>32092621
I was referring to the side picatinny rail on the scope mount itself.

>>32092386
i have one in 308. i find it pretty boring. but maybe bc i have a fuck long 23" barrel on it

>>32092665
Boring how? I know there is a marginal difference between 23" and 20" with .308, but what did the extra 3" do to make your vepr boring?

>>32091433

That's a pretty broad generalization.

VEPRs are fucking amazing though.

>>32092698
i find it overall boring to shoot and handle. its kind of a jack of all trades, master of none thing. it doesnt do anything particularly well or note worthy. it just did nothing for me after shooting it. keep in mind, i like ak pattern guns and i like 308, the two together just isnt my thing, ive come to find out.
if you do get one, csspec magazines are fucking great, they are worth the price for sure.

>>32091433

Russian and Communism

>Be Empire spanning across two continents
>Have conscription so everyone who turned 18 has to serve that year
>Have to give arms to people of different creeds, languages and IQ levels
>Have to make stuff that fits all types of people from the short snow niggers of siberia to the fat fucks of Moscow
>Have to make sure that neither the siberian cold, ukranian mud or general retardness or laziness can break what you make.

No wonder shit is rugged.

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>>32091685

Clearly you've never driven a Soviet car, lol.

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>>32092782
>implying
a Lada is never 100% functional, but it is never 100% broken either.

>>32092816
Those cars are fucking glorious, the stupid shit you can do with them and still work is crazy. But yeah, they never exactly fully work. It's like something has to be broken for it to work.

>>32091433
Reliability doesn't matter when you can't fucking hit anything

>>32092870
>AK accuracy meme
even a shitty WASR can hit man-sized targets at 300 yards with ease. I bet you think that ARs are unreliable too.

>>32092712
The shotguns are too. My Vepr-12 is calling out to me for a 30-cal brother and I'm torn between 54r (I already have a stock of nugget food) and .308 (double stack mags).

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The AK-47 was a german design not a russian, the russians forced Hugo Schmeisser, the guy who designed the StG 44 (the very first assault rifle) to design the AK-47.

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>>32093494
>The AK-47 was a german design not a russian, the russians forced Hugo Schmeisser, the guy who designed the StG 44 (the very first assault rifle) to design the AK-47.

>>32092870
Come within 400 yards and say that to my face, fucker.

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>>32093521

>>32093528
seriously though, why cant anyone make an AK with a free floated barrel, attaching the fore-end grip to the barrel is just stupid

>>32093494
look ma, i posted it again!
>https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ak-and-stg-kissing-cousins/

>>32093544
>remove lower handguard retainer
>ziptie lower handguard to upper
congratulations, your barrel is now free-floated

>>32093548
>>https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ak-and-stg-kissing-cousins/
I didnt say they were the same design, I said that Hugo Schmeisser (best gun designer in europe) was forced to design it

>>32093521
>ifunny

>>32091433
They assume (and were mostly correct) that the average conscript would be a bumbling, uneducated dumbass.

Making your products simple to use, with as few unnecessary and extra features, and as indestructible as possible is generally the best solution to this.

>>32093590
The original AK was designed before Hugo Schmeisser was captured and brought to Izhevsk.

Hugo most likely had input in realizing the industrial potential needed for reliable stamping (so, industry for Russia as a whole), thus paving the way for the AKM.

>>32092665

thats dissapointing.
I'm the same way though. love ak and .308. Want one for a ranch/ SHTF rifle for tge reason that it is a jack of all trades and unmatched reliability

>>32091575
>MUH RAILS
Rails have ruined the gun community

>>32094248
Top-rails are perfectly valid tbhfam.

>>32094248
I think a top rail is perfectly reasonable.

The area where you mount the side rail to a Vz.58 is milled out in the VZ2008 version. So if you don't want to fuck it all up, you better take it to a gunsmith.

>>32092219
This.

>>32091433
>How come communism produces such rugged shit
Because they base most of their guns on the kalashnikov action, which really hasn't required much to be changed since they started making stamped models.
They've made small improvements, but nothing very earthshattering at all.

>>32093781
>The original AK was designed before Hugo Schmeisser was captured and brought to Izhevsk.
no, it was designed at the same time Hugo was there. The Russian's story was that he was not working at the same part of the factory. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that Mikhail Kalashnikov with no previous history of designing firearms except for a prototype that was never accepted was able to design the AK, its pretty obvious that this design could only have been done by Hugo

>>32091433
It has more to do with where, rather than who, I think.

>>32097152
History is written by the winners, I guess we'll never really know for sure.

>>32097152
The AK has design cues from many different rifles. The original AK bolt is inspired from the Garand rifles.

>>32097152
There's Gaston Glock you know.

>>32093528
No thank you.

Unless I get to have my AR :^)

>>32091503
>Schofield clone with .44 Russian
>that the United States originally made on order
>in the caliber the United States developed

>>32092726
Had a Saiga in 308. Felt the same way, traded it for a Poly.>>32092889

>>32097192
And the safety from Remington semi-auto's.

>>32091433
Their guns are fine

But they can't design a good cartridge if their life depended on it

>7.62x54R
>9x18
>7.62x39

All inferior to their Western counterparts

>>32098173
The 7.62x39 actually seems perfect to me, I've been looking for a good sks
Stronger and cheaper than 5.56, i dont really see the problem

>>32098173
Not inferior, just designed to work with inferior components or different conditions. 54R is an old bolt gun cartridge that is still used in the world's best GPMG to this day. 7.62x39 has it's heavy taper to make it as reliable as possible with a steel case, and succeeds (same story with 5.45). 9x18 is the strongest cartridge you can fit in a small blowback pistol without eating slide or building a Hi-Point.
They all make perfect sense and work very well in their niche

>>32098261
54R has a rim, holds less powder than .308 and has less power overall

It'd be much more beneficial for them to use /308

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>>32098314
>54R has a rim
beneficial for extraction, which is great when the case is made of steel.
>holds less powder than .308
dependent on the load, however 54R has slightly more case capacity (64 vs 56 gr).
>has less power overall
see above

>>32091433
>Berdan
American
>Mosin-Nagant
Slightly Belgian, no more robust than a Mauser.
>Nagant-Revolver
Belgian, obsolete when first adopted.
>Fedorev
A fucking mess
>TT-33
Slightly simplified American design chambered in a slightly hotter German cartridge.
>SVT-38/40
Not 'tard proof, vertical shot dispersion.
>Various machine guns
Foreign or not they tend to be reliable, but this is nothing unique to the Soviets
>SKS
Reliable as fuck, not gonna lie
>Various Kalashnikovs
Do I even need to?
>Makarov
Genius simplification of an already simple German design.
>SVD
Also reliable as fuck
>Newer designs
I'll tell you after WW3.

They aren't uniquely genius designers...they just knew a reliable gun when they saw it.

>>32091433
Russian motto - Slow and steady wins the race.

>>32091433
People seem to think that the ak was built to be reliable. That's not the case. The reason for the loose tolerances and fewer parts is that the rifle was designed primarily to be both cheap and simple to very quickly manufacture in very large numbers. Keep in mind the smg that the ak replaced was designed specifically not to be reliable or be able to do any specific task within a certain parameter but instead to be manufactured in under 4 hours

>>32091685
Agree. Especially old school soviets back in the 40-50 now though russia isn't really all that socialist anymore. That's why there stuff has gone to shit. They have a worse wage gap than the US. fucking funny since they're communist.

>>32092782
FYI that is a german car

>>32094248
Agree. I would love me to see more options than the ar15 on the market for the same price point. Also less snobbery. There is literally nothing wrong with owning an ar15

>>32098314
308 and 54r are ballistically identical

>>32100886
Not for personal use ar is fine, but the fact remains AK-47 is the best overall assault rifle in the world, and if you're going to arm a fuck ton of soldiers on the cheap. also, you can find guns that can beat the AK in very particular points but summing up accuracy, reliability, and price; there is simply no comparison. Especially since the design hasn't changed in over 60 years!

>>32100917
I meant to say mini 14 at the end

>>32100910
.308 produces more energy.

>>32091433
It's slav magic, applied to design.
Half of the time, whatever they design is utter shit and breaks completely. (see: Russian tanks pre-WW2, the Admiral K)

The other half the time, it works like a gem (see: AK line)

>>32091529

All soldiers are retards. Don't be silly and think otherwise. That's why when they leave the military they can't deal with real life.

Military has ALWAYS been something to keep your bottom line as uncluttered as possible from the flotsam of the lower class. It's also why officers get hated on by soldiers because there's a low - middle class disparity in 90% of nations. Also why the 'working' socialist nations have such low recruitment rates and still maintain some level of conscription because as their average education rises so does their recruitment lower.

>>32092029

and theres the saying 'if you lock a G.I/Marine in a room with nothing but 2 anvils he'll lose one and break the other'.

>>32100875
You are so fucking uneducated. Gommunism doesn't produce high quality goods, they stole all of their designs and would have been vanquished long before '91 if it wasn't for traitorous cucks like yourself selling military secrets (nukes) and forcing foreign people at gunpoint to design them shit. They were ridiculously unproductive, why do you think their supermarkets were bare and millions starved to death?

No profit motive, by your logic they would have worked extra hard to make even more food than ever because they don't need to worry about oversupply affecting their prices.

Profit motive = human nature. The prick who whines about evul kapitulsim and how the commies were so great also doesn't get out of bed and work for free. Anything good you have in your life exists because someone went out and made it happen in order to make their fortune.

>>32097152
Didn't Mikhail's design team make multiple prototypes before arriving at the AK?

>>32092621
the 'bread loaf' is so fucking cute, yet it somehow is repulsive to goddamn hippies.
I dont know if there is a more perfect van in the world

>>32100870
The AK was built to be reliable and cheap to manufacture. It didn't happen to just turn out to be a cheap gun that was reliable.

They deliberately used a long-stroke piston, they deliberately used a cartridge with a wicked taper for ease of extraction, they deliberately made with large clearances between the parts as well as loose manufacturing tolerances.

If it was only made to be cheap then they wouldn't have continued making it after the initial stamped receiver models failed. But instead they persevered with a milled receiver until their manufacturing ability caught up. Because rifle is good.

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>>32092254
I prefer irons desu

>>32092254
Tacticool is prone to not work when needed most.

>>32091558
What Rolls-Royce?

If it's the car, it would end up black with three white stripes, a missing rear door, and a body in the trunk.

If it's the jet engine however, did anyone ever tried to set a land speed record in a Lada?

>>32097152
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/14/designed-ak-47/
Read the comments

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/22/no-germans-didnt-design-ak-47-kalashnikov-conspiracy-theories-refute-part-1/

>>32101612
>Anything good you have in your life exists because someone went out and made it happen in order to make their fortune.

not true

>>32097673
It's superior to the US-made ones.

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>>32093548
>>32093521
>>32093494

I love how people forget that Kalshnikov's friend was murdered by the Commie authorities for writing a news article saying the AK was actually designed by a team of people.

Kalashnikov was a propaganda puppet, and Hugo Schmeisser was the real engineer.

>>32102005
[citation needed]

>>32102005
IT doesn't need to have been designed by a team of people. Folks act like the AK was some vast leap forward in terms of design, but it was overall just "pretty good". Kalashnikov was pretty open about having a lot of help from Simonov making a proper gas port, but the rest is simple. Rotating bolt, like a Garand but less exposed. A safety that blocks dust and bolt carrier when engaged, like the old Remingtons. The simplest gas system imaginable, with enough impulse to kick out the heavily tapered steel cases in any situation.
The AK is a good rifle because the design is simple, and it's made of heavy grade tractor steel with large clearances. It's not a damned ray gun.

>>32091433
Communism had nothing to do with this.
A brilliant mechanical mind was recognized by "the state".
Communism wasn't responsible for the innovation, if anything it only makes people function at the bare minimum.

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>>32092847
yeah, but when it works it just keep on running.
My friend has had 3 Lada Nivas, one armoured uaz452 and now he has a GAZ-66. They may be uncomfetable, but they run every day. (except the uaz, it died in a ditch in Murmansk)

>>32093494
The AK has more in common mechanically with the Garand than it does the STG-44.

>>32092029
There's one interesting extension of AK-47 - the bottle opener on Galil, AK-47 derivative.

>>32101095
>All soldiers are retards
Disagree, and there are different kinds of soldiers. Some are contractors, and some are conscripts.

Soviet soldiers were conscripts, and couldn't give a fuck about anything in the army other than waiting for the day they say "fuck you" and go back home.

Any contract army, no exceptions, will not tolerate the kind of shit conscripts are doing. Hence, AK-47 and other technological wonders.

>>32091433

It's a communism thing - basically you have a central government demanding things be produced in massive quantities by the soviets, each soviets' industrial equipment varying slightly, so all communist equipment has to have really broad variances in quality and still work.

So you put dirt in an AK, and what happens in a regular non communist gun is it jams because the bolt or action is designed to very high tolerances and the dirt jams the bolt or action.

In Communist gun, dirt makes slightly wobbly bolt or slightly loose action work a little better.
You block up the main gas feed and the gun still works because it was designed to have gas leaks throughout the rest of the mechanism.
The only way to fully jam an AK is to literally fill every hole in the gun with wet clay, but here's hte thing: fill an AK with wetclay, place it into a fire, wooden furniture and cosmoline ignites and makes fire burn even hotter, leave for a few hours, take metal remains of AK out of fire, dismantle, YOU NOW HAVE A CLAY FLUTE WITH HOLES SHAPED LIKE JOSEPH STALIN, remove flute, replace burnt wooden furniture, AK STILL GOOD TO FIRE WITH.

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>>32091433
Rugged men make rugged guns. Nice vepr op have a pic of mine.

>>32091553
>mud proof

Russian vehicle with wooden doors had doors that would swell due to temperature change and become unclosable. Russian solution was to make standard equipment on all such vehicle hand plane.

>>32103959
Communism had everything to do with this.

They needed a "people's man" to front the development of "people's rifle".

That's how communism works, tovarits.

>>32105349

That last part

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>>32091433
To understand why is to understand the Soviet doctrine in weapons design, as well as the Marxist/Leninist doctrine to achieve world socialism.

Soviet military engineering, whether it be for a tank, truck, helicopter, fighter jet, or infantry weapon, all revolved around two basic principles: 1) make it simple and cheap, 2) make it good enough. Simplicity allowed for economical mass production. “Quantity has a quality all its own.” Soviet combat doctrine was all about overwhelming their enemy with a significant numerical advantage. Simplicity was also (and more importantly) pushed for ruggedness. Fewer complicated features meant less maintenance and fewer things to malfunction. “Good Enough” meant that it had to work well in numbers, but it didn’t necessarily need to surpass the enemy’s equivalent piece individually. (For more detail on Soviet weapons, see my abstract on Soviet tanks.)

More importantly, this simplicity design means it can be demonstrated to peasants whom do not even speak the same language as the teacher. A poor peasant farmer or shepherd in a remote rural area, who is fed up with his government, can be handed this rifle (from such a man as a Soviet Commissar or local revolutionary), shown how to load and operate it, and made ready to fight in a matter of minutes. And in those minutes, this powerless illiterate farmer is now an armed freedom fighter ready to join the revolution, overthrow the oppressive regime in power, establish a new government, and create a new social order so his children can live a better life (in theory).

Basically, as mentioned by a bunch of people already: it's for illiterate two-bit conscripts because the Soviets and Red Chinese wanted to rally a bunch of the "poor proletariat" to oust the "bourgeois"

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>>32091433
your precious Mosin is from the imperial era
miss me yet, faggots?