Where does the stereotype of the shotgun being the ideal

>>31984773
All those niggers killed by shotguns.

>>31984773
a couple of centuries of them being used for just that?

>>31984773
the fact that it functions as a very good HD weapon.

the meme of "lol nobuddy get scurr when someone racks a shotgat" thing started here though. most fuckers doing a B and E aren't looking for a confrontation just some easy money and will skedaddle at the slightest hint there will be trouble

>>31984773

Because it is the ideal HD weapon you noguns nigger

>>31984773
Because the do well?
They're cheap, ammos cheap, generally people know how to use them, and on soft tissue, there isn't any non-NFA weapon that will do more damage at close range. I do like handguns because they are more maneuverable in a house, but an SBS would be very effective.

>>31984773
>cheap
>reliable
>a one shot problem solver as long as you aren't an ass that uses bird shot for HD

I wish that stupid "racking the slide is enough to scare people away" meme would die.

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>>31984886
>I wish that stupid "racking the slide is enough to scare people away" meme would die.

Same.

>Not keeping one in the tube with safety on.
>Robbers never get the chance to know that a horrible end is coming.

Pic related keeps my home safe.

>>31984819
>Because it is the ideal HD weapon you noguns nigger
That would be the AR-15. Way more rounds if you need them even if odds are you won't. Handier. Less recoil for a faster followup if needed. Easier for the average user to configure with light and sighting setup. .223 is less likely to overpenetrate walls than buckshot. Equally as devastating to be hit by. Doesn't care if the perp has soft armor.

Probably because of their spread. It's easier to hit what you are pointing it at. That and depending on the shot you use, it won't over penetrate like a pistol or rifle can.

>>31984807
Former fucker doing B and Es here, can confirm.
Seeing your gunsafe=sketched out
Seeing a gun laid somewhere for quick access=sketchometer pegged out

>>31984926
It's harder to aim an AR in the dark, if you have a red dot or whatever, did you leave it on? Are the batteries dead? Do you have time to turn it on?
And im not claiming a shotgun is gpong to hit because of it's "spread", but a properly sized shotgun is easier to aim quick, it's sort of what they are made for.

Shotguns are good because of their accessibility.

They're cheap, relatively easy to learn and are less likely to need follow-up shots.

There are better things out there, but a shotgun's definitely a good choice for someone who doesn't know how to fight beyond "shoot the bad guy".

>>31984773
It's because you can put anything in 'em from snake shot to 3.5" rifled sabos weighing over 2 OZ.

In other words you can use ammo that wouldn't kill a cat up to something that would pink mist the upper torso of a man. Have you ever seen what 3.5" 000 buck is capable of? Fucking shit 30 times the size of people up massively with one shell. That's from a 12 gauge. Imagine what you could do with a fucking punt gun

>>31984773
They're cheap and numerous.

I assume the belief was formed before affordable and available semi automatic rifles chambered in an intermediate cartridge, consider a '50s fudd who owns a handgun, a hunting rifle and a shotgun, obviously the shotgun is the best choice.

>>31984915
You protect your home but not your arteries. Shame on you.

Why do people think that "hearing a shotgun racking will scare off intruders" is just a meme?

If I was breaking into a house, I would be nervous enough as it is worrying about alarms, dogs, etc. If I heard any weapon being charged, that tells me

>I'm not alone in here
>I've been detected
>The home owner is armed
>The home owner is going to begin hunting me down to kill me

You think I'm just gonna stick around? Fuck no. Any sign that I was detected would send me running, but hearing a shotgun being racked would send me in a panic. It's one thing to get caught, it's another thing to have a fist sized hole punched through your chest.

>>31985037
Why not just get one of those little lasers that they have in shops to detect when the door gets opened, and have it play a recording of a shotgun getting racked?

>>31984915
> nikle folding stock
SEXY

>>31985047
If you're doing that you may as well put it on a 3 second delay and have it actually discharge a shotgun.

>>31985029
I regret nothing.

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>>31984776
fpbp

>>31985037
because /k/ is full of people who want to be counter culture in everything or see themselves as operpotator

its the hipster forum of the gun world

>>31985047
Because as far as I'm concerned, when people say "the sound will scare them off", they don't mean to just roll over, pump your shotgun, and go back to sleep. Your not relying on the "scare" factor alone, although it is an added benefit since it can scare off intruders before you have to get into a life threatening confrontation with a home invader that could end in costly litigation.

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>>31984773
Claim self defense in court gun maybe? IDK. Seems like a fool proof HD weapon if you ask me. Like it has been for centuries.

>>31985037
You can't give someone who is possibly on neural-inhibiting drugs the benefit of the doubt to understand the situation they are in with clarity. The possibilities for inebriation alone are high enough that it could be anything from psychotropics to neural-inhibitors and racking a shotgun might be something they either don't notice, misinterpret or angers them. This alone is the reason why police will tell you not to brandish against someone and why it is a crime. You'll probably get hurt, the intruder might get non-lethally hurt, anyone in the vicinity is under possibility for casualty whether or not it is fatal. The possibility of your weapon be reclaimed is thus high and you would be accessory to murder whether or not you wanted to be if that scenario were to play out.

The police would much rather you either remain silent until they leave or kill them 100% so the DA can't snap the shaft off in both of your asses and have a hey-day on media implications over "Man threatens Dindu Jenkins with gun who steals gun then uses it to rob Jabeeb at 711 and kill his 14 kids"

Is that clear enough why you don't threaten somebody with a weapon you don't wholly intend to use to end their life?

>>31984955
You can leave an aimpoint on for couple of years no problem. Modern non-Eotech sights are fucking tits.

>>31985115
Again, nobody is implying that you just pump a shotgun and go back to bed assuming they will run off. You pump a shotgun so you can blow the fucker away, scaring level headed bad guys off is really just an added bonus.

Also
>Being concerned with brandishing laws
>In your own fucking home
>When your using a weapon in self defense no less

>>31984955
Good thing it has a 30 round magazine

>>31985235
I guess you've never been to the DA's office or in a case about someone getting shot and not dying, have you? Well I have and it almost got the person fucked for brandishing and not killing the guy. Don't shoot to injure.

And for the love of fucking god don't leave your home defense weapon out of battery. Especially not the typical 3 foot long barrel on a stick you can't navigate through doorways into corners.

>>31984773
Trench warfare

>>31984926
>equally as devestating to be hit by

Just no, and understand that I really like my ARs. But a 2 3/4" shell of 00 buck is 9 pellets at .33" each. At close range that is way more trauma than a .223, even if it does fragment.

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It comes from this.

>>31985320
Well compared to pistols of course it is. Supposedly a trauma surgeon in a major city kept track of what calibers killed what % of the time, pistols were only like 20%, rifles were like 80%. So for me rifle > shotgun

>>31985288
Where do you keep getting this idea that I am advocating against shooting to kill?

All that I am saying is that the sound of a weapon being charged is enough to send most intruders fleeing, thus removing the need for a potentially lethal confrontation. I am not saying you shouldn't shoot the guy. I am not saying you should just intimidate him. I don't know where all this bullshit about navigating corners comes into the argument.

The only point I am making is that shotguns have a loud, distinctive charging noise, and said noise is often (but not always) enough to send intruders fleeing. In the event that it doesn't cause them to run, you now have a potent close quarters weapon to repaint your walls with their brains.

>>31985320
Why is this so?

>>31985341
Your primary goal should not be to cause a fatality.

>>31985348
Why are you asking serious questions about an unsourced picture?

Magdumping with your supressed sbr with tacticool rails and holosight looks infinitely sketchier than using a shotgun as well.

>>31985349
Read any of the rest of the thread. Dead people don't sue

>>31985345
It's like you don't even realize the kind of people who would be incentivized to break into a house when they KNOW people are there. Anon you are very naive in your social skills and if you would like to better understand ghetto people go hang out with some. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a choice to grow up outside of ghettopolis. Do you want to know what would happen if you charged a shotgun and came out of your bedroom here? You would get shot because the person you intend to shoot just caught you brandishing with the intention of intimidation. Do you think people on drugs care about you and your fiesty dickpumper? No. They care about taking your shit so they can go buy more drugs. In fact, killing you and taking said dickpumper would get them MORE drugs.

I guess I shouldn't be so pissy though. Over half of this board literally lives in their mom's basement and has never had to deal with anything other than being coddled.

So in contrast, no, someone breaking into your house while they know you there won't generally run from shotgun noises. Yes, these are the kinds of people you will have to deal with if someone breaks in while you are home. There is a very high possibility of drug problems being the reason they are doing so. You can't navigate ANY house well through the doorways with a stereotypical 28" fudd gun and you sure the hell can't take stance, rack it while oper8in in the dark, acquire said position of person instantly, do videogame rolls through the corridors then CQC him with more racking noises until they flee in fear. Just because people here talk about charging in full mast in a fursuit to rape a burglar to death in his moment of fright does not mean it is even a remotely feasible idea. Quit buying into that bullshit before you get hurt.

>>31985386
Why do I need to "navigate" when I'm locking myself in the bedroom and calling the police?

>>31985399
You mean getting shot for alerting Tyrone you have a gun he can sell to his homie for 500 dollars and buy some more rock

>>31984955
As if there arent movement activated reddots.

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>>31985386
Tl;dr

Something about how I shouldn't brandish a weapon to defend my home, burglers have absolutely no sense of self-preservation, and how all shotguns are 30 inch barreled under/overs.

Have fun getting your $1500 Gucci AR seized by police and "lost" during the investigation.

>>31985386
>Implying I don't rig shotguns over my front door with a tripwire a la Jigsaw in the first Saw movie.

>>31985420
But what if 30 armed criminals, all high and thus immune to pain and fear, rush my house simultaneously?

>>31985320
>pistols vs long gun
Could I get that with rifles?

>>31985420
Cmon nigger errbody in the hood knows .38s don't leave shells behind.

>>31985320
where is .223 on this chart? i have an AR for hd

>>31985432
>>31985440
Are you guys serious? The chart literally has no source.

Do bright colours just make you accept things uncritically?

>>31985454
Shit you're right
I just noticed 5.56 and 7.62 weren't there and my autism activated

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Wow, this thread devolved quickly into the "rack the shotgun" debate. Maybe an analysis of the two situations would better help illustrate which is the better option?

Let's say I rack the shot gun to scare away the perpetrator. This has some advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages:
>more than likely the criminal is going to book it
>don't have to deal with litigation
>probably won't come back

Disadvantages:
>the intruder now knows someone is privy to his presence
>intruder knows your location
>intruder knows you're armed

Given this situation, if the intruder is there to do harm you just put yourself at a YUGE disadvantage.

Now consider if you have one in the chamber ready to go and don't alert the intruder.

Advantages:
>intruder has no idea he's been detected
>intruder doesn't know where you are
>intruder doesn't know you're armed

Disadvantages:
>you may have to deal with litigation/investigation

So now you have to ask yourself if the risks of being sued or put under criminal investigation worth possibly exposing yourself and/or family to injury or death.

So I think what the "best" course of action is going to be will depend on how much people weigh the repercussions to each scenario.

>>31984946
This.

It's loud, destructive "enough" and reliable.
If you use a assault rifle to protect your family, you are as likely to frag little timmy than you are to hit a burglar.

because if you rack the slide it will take their arm clean off and it will bounce around inside the skull and go through the wall and kill your neighbors down the street but wont even go through a heavy jacket

>>31985386
>You would get shot because the person you intend to shoot just caught you brandishing with the intention of intimidation.
Are you fucking serious nigger?

>>31985406
>Selling a shotgun for $500
>A stolen shotgun no less
You're retarded aren't you?

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>>31985076
>spas-12 with fixed stock

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>>31985499

Not that guy, but the gun is hot. It's intended as a street sell because the purchaser can't pass a back ground check. Street guns go for a shit load more than the retail price.

We're not talking about Bud McFudd buying the gun, but Tyrone Biggums.

>>31985499
>implying niggers know how much guns are worth
>implying said niggers won't rob someone for the money to buy said shotgun

Quit trying to use rational sense to figure them out. You won't because it's not possible.

>>31985316
A torso shot from .223 Federal Fusion or Gold Dot is not survivable. And the perp is getting more than one.

>>31985316
>2 3/4"
>way more trauma than a .223
nigger you what

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>>31985316
I'm sorry but what do you think those ~3000 or so feet per second go when they enter a body?

Neverminding the fact that followup shots are super easy and you have 29 of them.

>>31985676
Not him, but buckshot does have more energy, and it's basically like getting 9 times with a pistol round

>>31984773

Heavy recoil
Manual action
Slow reload
Low capacity

>>31984946
>Probably because of their spread
Shotgun spread isn't even worth considering for any typical defensive load, at home defense ranges.

>>31984915
Not bad.

Could need a swanky cerakote job and a heatshield.

Because they're dirt cheap, infinitely reliable, simple to operate and learn, and hit hard.

You can't get an AR-15 for $150.

>>31984958
This.

It's kind of like the Apple "it just werks" mentality, except it's not overpriced and it actually DOES work.

>>31985941
If your life hangs in the balance, should cost be your only consideration? Also, you can build a medium quality AR for right around $400 if you're patient for sales.

>>31985942
The problem I have with shotguns for HD, is that the rate of fire is so slow, and at HD ranges, spread counts for nothing

>>31985948
I've had a lot of problems with lower-end ARs. For someone like me who makes very little money going to college, $400 would take me a long fucking time to save-up. Even if I bought AR parts one-by-one, I still won't have a fully-functional firearm.

>>31984951
You have to go back

>>31984915
...ajax?

>>31984841
Confirmed about being easy to use. My father was a diplomat and went to Iraq three times. Foreign service officers posted to dangerous areas are given basic weapons training so that if they need to defend themselves they will at least be able to get a shot off. My dad is not naturally gifted with firearms and he couldn't hit much with a M4 or much less a M9. But he could reliably hit a man sized target with a 12 gauge. His instructors told him to just stick with that and henceforth he made sure there was always a 12 gauge in any vehicle he was being driven around in.

>>31984773
Because shotguns are cheap, ubiquitous, easy to use and at the point-blank ranges of HD, they're accurate enough and pack serious punch. Not only that, but even fudds own a shotgun for hunting most times, so most of the time, if Elmer hears someone breaking in, Jamal usually ends up on the business end of a load of birdshot.

>>31984773
Hollywood

>>31984773
>shoot pistol or rifle
>miss because its dark
>hit guy in shoulder
>shoulder still works

>shoot shotgun
>miss because its dark
>hit him in shoulder, chest and neck
>guy dead

Only bad thing is mobility.

>>31985948
They are still much simpler to use overall.
If you don't train regulary, what would you trust more ? An AR15 or a shotgun.

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Ok most of you /k/ikes are poorfags, slav weebos, /k/ids or WROL SHTF basement dwelling survivalists. So why isn't the TT-33 the SKS of pistols on this board?
Its cheap as borscht.
Can use modified 5.56brass,primers,strippers.
Simple to disassemble.
Indestructible solid overbuilt parts.
Less than an inch wide.
Surplus will penetrate level IIA armor
Why doesn't every one of you own one???

>>31984915
>Not keeping one in the tube with safety on.
My problem with this is that most shotguns aren't drop safe, and I don't wanna blow a hole in my wall because my Mossberg tipped over from where it was leaning on my bookshelf.

with the rise of poker tournaments im dissapointed .25 and .32acp aren't more popular.


Lets airdrop a bunch of western movies in the hood. We'll get them dressed like cowboys and carrying card shark guns instead of hipoints.

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>>31984926

>>31986187
Can you get them in the US post import ban? Is the ammo cheap?

>>31985862
That's cute. Show me the wound channel from 9 .33" pellets from a close range shotgun blast. Yeah, fuck off. I have 3 ARs, and I appreciate what they can do. But shotguns dominate close range.

>>31984926
Not in Cali. Only weird stock mods to eliminate pistol grip are OK.
May go to Mini-14.

>>31986227
Yes but you cucks seem to need safety installed because Russians know there is no safety in war..... is gun..... not safe.

>>31984926
This, its outstanding poorfags will still stick with the shot gun even though now you can build a AR for around $400. Just goes to show this board is filled with fudds

>>31986227
Yes.
No.

>>31986275
Yes

>>31986265
And there's your answer, disregarding that you didn't mention ammo availability.

>>31984773
Comes from an ignorant belief that you point it in a genera direction and it destroys everything in a large area, so you "can't miss". While it's very effective and one of the most powerful firearms that you can buy, it still needs to be aimed and operated with some skill.

>>31984773
Since forever hollywood has been pushing it as the "Badass" weapon, they did the same with glocks.

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>>31984886

>Not keeping one in the tube with safety on.
>Robbers never get the chance to know that a horrible end is coming.

Do you get off on the fantasy of shooting people? You sound like some pimple faced high school edgelord.

I know you aren't trolling because I hear this psychoshit at the range all the time.

>>31986292
Maybe

>>31985948
If your life hangs in the balance do you really want to be waiting for your lpk and barrel to be in the mail or do you want the gun that bought at Walmart while you we're picking up toilet paper.

Every time this argument comes up somebody shaves the price if an AR down by $50

>>31985964
The problem you have with shotguns is you don't know shit about guns.

>>31986269
Or maybe it just shows that you're one of those "there can be only one" faggots. Why not go all out and say everyone should have a suppressed microtavor for hd?

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>>31986326

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>>31985467
this
...its silly to take the risk of making noise. keep every tactical advantage you can

>>31986326
Most people live lifestyles with very little free autonomy and control. It's a power fantasy.

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Lever action shotgun >>> Pump action shotgun

>>31985862
>>31986247
agreed
...223/5.56 is unquestionably lethal. 12ga buckshot, however, creates bigger wound channels, and thats why i prefer 12ga buck over .223

>>31985115
Listen here 4chan lawyer, if you are going to make an argument, supposing legal consequences is a bad way make a point.

Home Defense is a personal choice as reasonable people can agree that there is no compelling argument that requires someone to defend them self. Most people will also agree that defending oneself is a morally acceptable act. However, the act of not attempting to avoid a armed confrontation and shooting a person is immoral.

Do you see how stupid that sounds dressed up with academic words? Don't be a fucking asshole let the thief fuck off if you can. If that doesn't sway you, the cleaning bill for blood all over your shit and new dry wall might be worth more then what a thief will take.

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>>31984955
>It's harder to aim an AR in the dark
Any less so than a shotgun? You do realize you still have to aim your shot blaster too right? Especially at living room range.

>if you have a red dot or whatever, did you leave it on? Are the batteries dead? Do you have time to turn it on?
Tritium front sight posts are pretty rad. And so are flashlights. Which you should also have on your shotgun and pistol for the exact same fucking reasons.

>but a properly sized shotgun is easier to aim quick
More so that a properly equipped AR?

>>31984773
>Cheap
>Cheap ammo
>Good multipurpose gun to own (aka everyone had them for hunting so HD was a natural choic)
>Easy to operate
>Easy to hit with


They're just all around good.

You can buy a shotgun at 18 in the US, so it is more obtainable than a handgun, and you can use a shotgun for every purpose except CC.

>>31984773
A combination of
>it's always been the cheapest HD option
>it's been around the longest of any currently viable weapon, predating metallic cartridges by nearly 300 years
>it works pretty goddamn well
>it's the single most widely owned weapon across all types, both in the US and worldwide, due to a combination of being the cheapest and least restricted firearm (even the UK can have them)

>>31986326
I've heard from a former paramedic how he took a call with a guy who was shot because the freelance repro man flipped around and got him in the gut with a .25 before he knew what hit him. Didn't die but it did require surgery and getting shot in your own home is something no one should have to go through because they wanted to extend kindness towards someone who clearly doesn't feel the same.

It's not hard to not break into people's homes and I don't see why anyone should give someone willing to do so the benefit of the doubt to someone who decided it was a decent idea. I'd prefer everyone not need to get shot but I'm not taking a bullet because of that.

>>31986158
>generalizations: the post

>>31984958
>less likely to need follow-up shots

I'm not sure on this.

Everyone knows
>you need to aim a rifle, you need to aim a pistol
but shitty gunstore salesmen and every action movie and video game ever has been perpetrating the whole
>shotguns spread enough to fill an entire hallway the second it's out the muzzle, you don't have to aim them! Just point them in the general direction of [badguy] and pull trigger!

I'd be willing to bet that in a HD situation most of the people who own shotguns for HD will never even touch the person they're shooting at.

As an EMT who's responded to 14 home invasions (fortunately nobody ever hurt but we get called anyway), every time a shotgun is used it's
>fist sized hole in the floor
>3 fist sized holes in the ceiling
>fist sized hole in the wall 2' from where shooter was standing
>guy fired 5x, never touched the robber, robber GTFO'd, errybody deaf

>>31984773
Basically, overpenetration. If you shoot at a burglar indoors with a rifle or most handgun rounds, you'll punch through drywall and into other rooms. Buckshot is excellent at providing stopping power without penetrating walls.

Also the obvious: They're incredibly cheap, never regulated much even in California, and any idiot can use one with minimal training.

Easiest to point and aim, variety of ammo to fulfill a myriad of roles, and typically cheap.

>>31986510
>buckshot is excellent at providing stopping power without penetrating walls
NO FAGGOT
00 buck out-penetrates 147gr 9x19 JHP, 10mm 180gr hardcast, or .45acp 230gr hardball. It achieves similar penetration in drywall to .308 M80 ball, and has more than twice the drywall penetration of 5.56 M855 and nearly 3x the drywall penetration of 5.56 M193.

>http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/

>>31985014
>literally the best answer to the ops question

>>31986506
I'm going to guess a town with 14 break ins isn't exactly conducive to consistent range time.

>>31986547
Probably not, no.

But then again, most of the people who own a shotgun for HD have never shot it, and will never shoot it. Even if they have the opportunity to.

>>31984915
You're fat

>>31986476
That is a nice anecdote from a paramedic.

> I don't see why anyone should give someone willing to do so the benefit of the doubt. I'd prefer everyone not need to get shot but I'm not taking a bullet because of that.

I can see your view, but I still don't understand how having someone unannounced in your 'home' makes their life forfeit. If you are unwilling to get shot, why would you maneuver closer to that possible danger?

>because they wanted to extend kindness towards someone who clearly doesn't feel the same.

You are presuming a motive for someone being in your house. Are you sure it isn't a drunk or a young person just there on a dare?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_David_Smith_killings

>>31984915
You need to work out

>>31986529
Huh. That's informative, I've never seen a test like that. Was told that by the guy introducing me to guns, I'll have to show him that test. It seems to be conventional fudd wisdom around here. Thanks for the info

>>31986609
>but I still don't understand how having someone unnanounced in your 'home' makes their life forfeit
Castle Doctrine. Even the law recognizes that if someone breaks into a HOUSE, where there is either a HIGH LIKELIHOOD or it is KNOWN that someone is home, that they intend to cause physical harm to whoever's in the house.

>hey it's 3am on a weekday, what are the odds someone's sleeping in this house? Oh that's right, 100 fucking percent.
>I'd better break in anyway, surely smashing in their door/window isn't gonna wake them up and lead to a confrontation, surely!

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>>31986609
>why would you maneuver closer to that possible danger
Violence of action.

>I still don't understand how having someone unannounced in your 'home' makes their life forfeit
It's the United States of Guns. Anyone that invades an American home knowingly or not assumes the risk of being shot to death.

>You are presuming a motive for someone being in your house.
Is there a better presumption to make when the potential for the lives and you and your family may be at stake?

I'm not the same anon, but I play home defense to win. I have no trespassing signs a locked gate and locked doors for THEIR safety, not mine.

>>31986609
>you are presuming a motive for someone being in your house
Me, you, the fucking entire justice system (re: Castle Doctrine, SYG, and literally a dozen other laws that very literally make the presumption "someone's in your house against your will: They are there to brutally murder you"

>>31986247
Each of those pellets does less damage than a .380.

Poorfags and fudds.

No, really.

>>31984886
>I wish that stupid "racking the slide is enough to scare people away" meme would die.
No one is saying that it's a guaranteet method, just that it's usually effective, but it's definitely worth a try. If it doesn't scare them you can still shoot them

>>31986202

Lean it into a corner. If your wall comes crashing down nobody will blame your for your shotgun discharging.

>>31986437
>Any less so than a shotgun?
>More so that a properly equipped AR?
Yes, anon, shotguns are made to come to point it's part of the design.

I shit you not, when I was looking at shotguns at the LGS - the guy at the counter said
>Rack the slide, any home invader would know that sound and run.

>>31986609

Thats the kicker with a home invasion, you dont get to know their motive. Them entering your house is reason enough for you to assume there is a real threat to your immediate well being.

You dont get a chance to sit down and have a heart to heart with the person.

This is the exact reason why people are supposed to hunker down and not hunt the intruder down. Let them make the deision for you. If they enter the room you are in, kill them. If not, let them take your shit and leave. That is what insurance is for.

>>31986823
he's right tho

>>31986841
>let them take your shit and leave
home invaders must love your place. whew

>>31986874
In some places you aren't even allowed to stay there. The law says if a bad guy breaks into your house you have to leave.

>>31984773
The use of shotguns as a HD weapon is a meme spread by the drywall industrial complex. They want you to have to replace entire walls after you fend off your neighborhood's roving packs of dindus.

>>31986783
I've spent a lifetime of running deer dogs and blasting bambi with shotguns and shooting clays. And more than several years now wearing BDU's and ACU's for a living. You'd have to show me some science behind that one bro. I don't notice a discernible difference between the two in time to acquire a sight picture when it comes to actual use. If that were the case, the 590's in our arms room wouldn't' be used exclusively for breaching doors.

>>31986621
It might be the most commonly held fuddlore in the world, don't feel bad about believing it and spread the news.

As backing evidence: one of the biggest complaints with m193 was awful intermediate barrier penetration. It's why they switched to m855.

>>31985440
right there between .25 acp and .32

>>31986783
>shotguns are made to come to point it's part of the design

As opposed to the ar15 which was intentionally designed to be awkward to aim and use. The military agreed and adopted it because they hate it when soldiers rapidly bring their weapons to aim at a target.

>>31984955

you can't acquire targets faster with a shotgun, shut your pie hole.

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>>31985999
Nice digits

>>31984926

this. I really don't understand why people insist on using something that isn't optimal for home defense in that role.

>>31986265
The TT33 isn't drop-safe and the ammo hasn't been cheap in a decade, from a practical standpoint it's a piece of shit.

Pistols put holes in people
Rifles put holes through people
Shotguns remove a large chunk of flesh and bone.

-Clint Smith

I say the nearest gun is the best one. It doesn't matter what gun.

>>31986326
Of course I get off on the fantasy of shooting people. But keeping a round in the chamber is unsafe and irresponsible. It is better to have a weapon that can be armed quietly, so as to not alert your victim/home invader.

nothing is more deadly than a shotgun with buckshot at 5 feet lol

>>31985037
Because of fight or flight. Racking the slide doesn't guarantee that the burglar will run away. If he's armed and decides to fight because he knows someone's gonna shoot at him, you've just given away an advantage you previously had.

>>31987190
To elaborate on this, racking the gun has the chance of provoking the burglar to attack. I would rather shoot at someone who is moving slowly and is unaware of my presence. Just because I have a loaded gun doesn't mean I can act faster than a crackhead.

>>31987174
.50 Beowulf hardcast

>>31987334
Except the shotgun can still kill the guy even if you miss.

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>>31987348
>missing at HD distances
>thinks spread of a shotgun at HD distances is enough of a thing that it it'll actually matter if you miss

>>31987404
Some nogunz yelled at me earlier on the thread that I must clearly not know anything about guns because I made the same point, (even though anyone who knows anything knows that). This whole thread is either trolls/fudds/tards, or just a b8 thread

>>31985320
>Shotgun
No division between 20ga sissyfags, 16ga hipsters and 12ga.

>>31987461
Use birdshot to inflict maximum suffering on burglars.

>>31986981
>As opposed to the ar15 which was intentionally designed to be awkward to aim and use.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Go out and test them yourself, shotguns come up on target better than an AR. Shotgun stocks were designed to do that in order to facilitate wing shooting.

Cons:
-If you don't have one in the chamber, or are extremely practiced, you're likely to short stroke it under stress and jam your weapon
-slow follow up shots
-heavy ammo
-usually 3 shot capacity
-slow to reload
-unweildy in tight areas
-shotgun is heavy
-recoil is heavy
-no spread at HD distances

Pros: cheap

No wonder /k/ loves them

>>31985431
That's what you own a GAU-8 for

>>31987072
Zastava makes a 9mm version for aroud $200 and it's drop safe.

I want to pick a few up to stash around the house.

>>31985320
>This just in, new developments in firearms technology have improved the terminal ballistics of .22lr 20 fold.
>Militaries around the world are scrambling to buy new Ruger 10/22s for service, and Ruger is having a very difficult time keeping up with the demand
>California has since banned the round stating this, "Any round able to kill a human instantly from point blank out to 50,000 yards has no business being in civilian hands, no matter how cheap to plink with."
>We'd love to thank our source, nobody, for providing us the latest in firearm news

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>>31987601
Fug, forgod de imadge :DDD

>>31984926
' AR is perfect home defense ' is a NRA meme to have a counterpoint to WHO NEEDS A SKURRY MILTERRY GUN WITH ASSAULT CLIPS FOR EXTRA DETH libtard shrieking.

>>31987656
If I don't have attachments for a red dot, flashlight, and a scope, I really don't see the point in shooting at home invaders.

>>31987656
...he literally just pointed out why it's the ideal home defense tool...

It's easy to use and wield, the recoil is incredibly light, you have 30 rounds before you need to reload, and the most important part is it doesn't over penetrate.

If you have family or neighbors that you care about, the fact it goes through fewer walls than any other round while still being effective on target is the biggest reason I advocate it for home defense.

Your retarded and unnecessary opinion about valid reasons to own a specific weapon has been noted.

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>>31987686

>>31985467
Disadvantages:
>you may have to deal with litigation/investigation
How does this follow? Who says they would hear it. Maybe you did may be you did not but it should not matter with castle doctrine. This is where your defense attorney comes into play.

" got my shotgun ready and prepared to defend the lives and of my loved ones and myself from the intruder, I was in fear of our lives" "Anyone willing to enter a occupied house for criminal purposes probably does not care about the occupants lives"

>>31986187
>Overpenetration= 10000000000
>Ammo cost= 10000000000 times too much
>Ears = 0

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>>31987552
Yeah they're pretty alright, expect to pay $250 for one new though.

Also consider some plain wood grips, looks good man.

I've always used a shotgun for HD because it's the weapon I've always owned. I do have a shorter barrel and a longer magazine, so manueverability isn't an issue. I like that it's not ear-drum busting loud, and that it'll blow a niggas torso off.

The AR-15 now that I have one would probably be better, but what about the noise of it? Seems like a set of ears would be the last thing I'd be thinking about inthat situation.

>>31987775
I find them new in my AO for around $190-$220.

That is sexy as fuck.

>>31985115
I'm a drug addict and can tell you WITH CERTAINTY that you are wrong about how a person high on meth, pcp, or heroin will react during a B&E when hearing a shotgun rack. We will be so freakishly skittish in our little fear riddled addict brains that, unless this home is out in the country and there are a bunch of us, we will fucking run as if we just jacked a purse in public.

>>31986609
>You are presuming a motive for someone being in your house. Are you sure it isn't a drunk or a young person just there on a dare?
Yes, yes I am presuming the motive of an individual I don't know being in my house without invitation.

>Are you sure it isn't a drunk or a young person just there on a dare?
Nope. They should have exercised better self control at the bar or hung out with a smarter group of friends.

Uninvited presence in my home ESPECIALLY between dusk and dawn = you're dead. No shooting to wound either given the fucked up legal climate these days.

If it was an honest mistake/dumb bet on your part, that really sucks for you. Make better decisions in your next life.

>>31987715

Not sure of the laws in some states, but even defending your life or the lives of your family does not stop civil litigation. While that does not mean you're going to lose in a civil suit, they're still expensive. I'm trying to show that there are reasons some people just don't want to start blasting. Me personally, I live in a based state where I wouldn't see any type of repercussion from defending me or my family's lives.

The military doesn't sling their M4s and switch to shotguns to clear buildings.

>>31985349
Poor bait

>>31984951
Ring that guy with Hi-Points in every room of his house.

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>>31984886
>birdshot

>>31989503
Is he gonna be okay, /k/?

>>31984773
>Cheap
>Very powerful
>Ideal at HD distances
>Pump actions are very reliable
>Simple to operate

>>31989503
>birdshot
>photoshop
choose one

Ausfag here.

Would I be better with a lever-action shotgun or a handgun with a stock for HD?

>>31984773
lot better than a stick

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>>31989525
Here. Have moar.

>>31986227
zastava makes new production models in 9mm and 7.62

>>31985349
in a home invasion scenario, it is

>>31986299

yeah but it does make it easier

>>31985386
you are implying the home invader knows somebody is home. the majority of home invasions happen precisely because the perp thinks the house is empty. empty house=no resistance

>>31985431
you probably deserved it

>>31989503
>birdshot
https://youtu.be/_F_KuFzjOGA?t=73

Yeah.

>>31989530
Boomerangs are great home defense weapons. Besides, isn't Australia requirer you retreat from an intruder, even in your own home?

>>31989642
Nah
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s322k.html

>>31989603
lol look who doesn't own a vehicle or tv or have electric in his name

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>>31989503
Tookie Williams is a piece of shit and I am glad he is dead

>>31987715
>but it should not matter with castle doctrine

well i live in NJ, which is a duty to retreat state. so my only option is to lock my bedroom dore, call the cops, and if the perp comes in, i blast them

>>31989664
yeah? im also finishing my degree in criminal justice so i know a little bit about this kind of stuff

>inb4 meme degree
im joining the Navy anyway

>>31989707
>finishing degree
>criminal justice major
>joining the semens

Well now we know why you're poor and a pussy. I bet you want Tyrone to pound that booty. No wonder you're so against shooting a home invader.

>>31989493
lolwut

>>31989758
where did i imply im against killing a home invader?

and why so much salt about the navy? too fat to enlist? too dumb and had to join the muhreens?

>>31987788
Of course you might not have time to throw them on if you wake up to somebody already in your house, but if you've got literally 1-2 seconds to spare, you would be well served to put on some active hearing protection and not have hearing damage for the rest of your life.

t. someone who has hearing damage for the rest of their life

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>>31989832
>when the EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE is just right

>>31989832
I have fucking tinnitus indirectly caused by shooting. Earplugs pushed a ball of wax too far in, and when I got them cleaned out the incompetent nurse mauled my ears. Bled for 3 days, pretty sure she ruptured them because I had the eeeeeeeeeee for a couple of weeks. It's been coming and going, and it's been back for all of this week.

>>31986158
>hit him in shoulder, chest, and neck
I wasnt aware any home in the world had 100ft long hallways.

Cuz at normal home defense ranges (10-15 feet), buckshot has between 1 and 3 inches of spread. And birdshot has no spread, as it hasnt even left the wad yet.

>>31984915

>pleb with a pump.


1100 master race here.

>>31990053
>And birdshot has no spread, as it hasnt even left the wad yet.

this is why i dont get why people shit on birdshit for HD. at HD ranges, the shot is basically a slug, but with less recoil and cheaper

>>31987519
>pros: doesn't overpenetrate as much as a AR15
>pros: harder to miss at nearly any range

>>31990098
>Cheaper

How often are you planning on using your HD rounds? A box of five 00 is $4.

Use something that'll be consistent instead of a fucking variable. Just because it CAN kill doesn't mean you should rely on it. Rely on what will kill no matter what.

>>31990433

So, high explosive rounds to be sure to ensure destruction of the CNS.

>>31987519
>shotgun is heavy

You what mate? Also, who has a shotgun for HD that only holds three rounds? Even a shitty HR Pardner holds 5.

>>31985399
They also have to do a tactical entry of your bedroom while under incoming small arms fire.

they have to clear the dark unfamiliar room and elimate the homeowner, all while being high as fuck on drugs and with little to no military experience being most likely.

Also how the fuck is tyrone going to hit him through the door?

>>31987404
>not using buckshot with a rifled barrel for home defense

shiggy diggy

>>31989876
>>31990009
>read these posts
>left ear starts ringing

s-stop

Just a reminder, in a world of high powered rifles, Maxims, BARs, mustard gas and all sorts of terrible things, the Germans tried to have the shotgun banned from warfare in WW1.

>>31991742
They also banned hollow and soft points and a sappers bayonet because it looked scary , the war was retarded butthurt on all sides.

>>31984773
compared to a handgun, they actually are pretty fuckin' good for HD.

a 00 12g cart is basically 9 9mm's at one time right into the thorax of whatever insect deigns to enter your home. it kills shit dead with fewer shots, so long as there's no armor involved.

followup shots kinda suck with them, especially for women and the weak, but if you miss at HD ranges, you're a dumbass anyway.

so, yeah, they're fucking great as HD weapons. SMGs would be better, and an AR with the right ammo can be safer, but a shotgun is certainly not a bad choice, and will kill shit deadder than you even need it to be dead.

>>31984955
against you AND ALL OF YOUR OPPONENTS:

if you need to aim at HD ranges, you've fucked up somewhere -- homes are normally only big enough for point shooting. shetgnus excell here; reddots excel here.

neither is particularly needed, though -- your house is probably 12 feet wide in its biggest room. who needs to aim at that distance anyway?

>>31984915
do you break into a sweat after extending the stock?

>>31985349
>Your primary goal

Is to protect myself and my family. The perp's life is a bit further down on my list of priorities.

>>31985341
if you could somehow remove birdshot from the equation, shotguns would have a higher percentage, no doubt. I read a book on ballistic trauma and forensics, they do mention that at close range, shotguns produce the most devastating wounds of any small arms

>>31984773

At the risk of sounding retarded, a question concerning the heatshield in OP's pic. Does that require atf paperwork? Or can one just put it on a mossy without entering some legal grey area?

>>31992351
Heatshields are fine without paperwork.

>>31989525
Dude, at that range, the shot hasn't even made it out of the cup. It's impacting as an almost solid mass.

>>31989525

>birdshot spreads everywhere as soon as it leaves the barrel

wew

>>31992621

Thanks, great to know.

>>31992351
...that definitely doesn't require paperwork...

it's essentially a cheese grater for fucks sake.

>>31989427
Soldiers can barely be fucked to put on their plate carrier and you expect them to carry two long guns?

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>>31992866
>it's essentially a cheese grater for fucks sake.
This is the ATF, a cheese grater probably requires a tax stamp as far as they're concerned.

As far as they're concerned I don't NEED a coffee grinder in my Sharps either.

>>31984915
Those ati stocks suck ass.

>>31986202
>most shotguns aren't drop safe
Are you a fucking idiot? You watch too many movies.

I don't think a shotgun is always the best HD gun but it is hard to argue that it is a poor choice. I feel pretty safe knowing that I have my ksg meme gun loaded with 15 shells of 16 pellet #1 buffered buckshot . That is a lot of lead I can throw in a pretty short amount of time should the need ever arise.

>>31986389
Admittedly, they look cooler, but they are not more reliable.

>>31986326
Always keep a round in the chamber, you're an idiot if you don't.

>>31987610
This graph is true...if you get shot with a .22 it ricochets around inside your body until you die. It is known.

>>31984773
>relatively cheap, entry level mossberg500/remington870 can be had at hi-power price
>easy to clean/maintain
>abundance of quality buckshot/slugs at reasonable prices
>buckshot provides some accuracy compensation while not over-penetrating through Tyrone or drywall
>less-frequently cucked by legislation compared to handguns and AR/AK platforms
can swap from an 18" barrel to longer for hunting
you can hate all you want but the a 12gauge has put its fair share of basketball Americans into oblong boxes

>>31984886
I hated it when my former coworker would emphasize that to customers looking at HD guns like the sound of the pump action was a selling point.

>>31987656
Look at what SWAT teams use faggot.

A submachine gun would be THE ideal HD gun but under current our current system a rifle chambered in an intermediate cartridge or a pistol caliber carbine is the best you can do.

>>31984973

>punt gun HD

BRB guys, sucking dick at a truck stop to fund this shit.

>>31992974
If you can find a better folding stock for a shotgun, by all means enlighten me.

I know some companies used to make better ones, but they were super expensive and are no longer produce. Pretty much leaving us with the ATI.

>>31985431
Razor wire, claymore mines and a m-60 are recommended.

>>31984773
Because buckshot against unarmored flesh at HD ranges is absolutely fucking devastating

>>31986609
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_David_Smith_killings
Holy shit why is Minnesota so cucked?

>>31985948
>$400 on an AR over a few months/year
>have an incomplete gun during those months
or
>drop $250 on a used pump action shotgun and a box of 00buckshot
>home is defended

>>31990514

Nice strawman.

>>31987519
>-usually 3 shot capacity
u fucking wot?

forgot a few pros as well.
>massive fucking wound cavity
>won't spook jurors like an AR would

>>31986609

>drunk teenager on a date

Yeah, no. You don't break into people's houses. If you do, expect the worst. I'll kill anything that comes through the door uninvited.

A 12 gauge slug is a .58 diameter bullet.

So if you took your nickel plated $1500 Desert Eagle out and put a .50 cal bullet in my head, I could make a slam bang around $20 that would turn your head into a bigger canoe.

See me during my office hours.

>>31984915
nick?

>>31993318

Carl?

>>31984773
Fudds

>>31989676
Damn, even California is a stand your ground state.

My theory is that before red dots existed / were cheap and common, the thinking went that putting a bead on a target is faster than lining up front and rear sight.

>>31984773
Based on barrel bore alone, a rifle or a pistol says, "Business before pleasure because I'm a quiet professional."

A shotgun says, "I am here to fuck shit up and party hard."

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>>31993398
I want you to realize that this is literally your only argument.

And the "best" home defense weapon is an SBR'd PS-90

>round destabilizes after passing through objects such as drywall essentially eliminating overpenetration
>50 round capacity
>tiny and way easier to "point" than a shotgun
>almost no recoil so very easy followup shots
>looks like sex

Come at me shotty and AR plebs

>>31993459
>And the "best" home defense weapon is a P90

Fixed. Good luck getting your hands on one though.

>>31993380
>putting a bead on a target is faster than lining up front and rear sight.
this is still true.
the fact is shotguns dont get the benefit of lining up sights. you get a pattern not pinpoint accuracy.the precision granted by irons is unnecessary unless you use slugs.
you aim a rifle you point a shotgun.

>>31993508
>Good luck getting your hands on one though.
This is why it isn't the best.

>>31984773
>proteck muh stuff
>break most of your stuff as collateral damage
if i can't have it no one can

>>31987519
>slow follow up shots
you can double tap pretty quick with minimal practice
>usually 3 shot capacity
5 is standard, aftermarket tube extensions can put you into 8-9 shot capacity
>slow to reload
if you magdump 5-9 shotshells and there's no cadaver to show for it, you fucked up
>unweildy in tight areas
no different than any other AR/AK format, or you can pursue a tax stamp for a SBS
>heavy gun
buy a youth gun
>heavy recoil
buy a youth 20 gauge
>no spread
you know you can replace the choke for different spreads, right?

>>31984773

>le racking a shotgat will scare the home invader :*)
>le you dont have to aim :^)

>>31985320

a 5.56 at short range will kill the shit out somebody

The real question is SMLE + Bayonet = Good HD weapon?

>>31993631
If you live close to other people, you really don't want to start firing off 5.56 rounds in your house.

>>31993229
They did vote for HRC after all.

>>31993658

i dont want to shoot 5.56 in my house at all

but if some nigger is in my house hes gonna get got with 30 rounds

>>31993656
Worked for the trenches right?

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The best HD weapon is the one you're best at using.

Fucking /thread

>>31993680
>not shooting him with 50 without killing your neighbor or wife and children
>>31993459

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It has a lot to do with your location as well.

Trying to use a California compliant AR for self defense is a great way to get yourself killed.

You get 10 rounds and it basically becomes a stupid looking baseball bat.

INB4 "will not comply" BS, see you in prison dipshit after the judge busts out your child killing insta-reloadable 40 round death machine.

>>31993688

if theres a home invader my strategy is to get to the top of my stairs with my AR and shoot down at the red guard so if and when the rounds over penetrate theyll go through his body and into the floor

>>31986913
Duty to retreat is sketchy (and fucking twisted IMO) but if you are reasonably cornered you can use lethal force and not go to jail.

>>31993709
>can't even afford proper barrel locks, flags, whatever

Fucking christ, a ziptie isn't going stop anyone ever.

>>31991281
not how it works, but ok

>>31987788

nice double doubles

>be me
>shootan muh ar innawoods
>wearing earplugs
>shoot gun
>BOOOOM
>thought gun kb'd
>shit bricks
>take ears off
>realize i only had one plug in

>>31984773
>cheap
>powerful
>reliable
>easy to use
>versatile
>doesn't require pinpoint aim or shot placement

>>31993805
AR is literally all of those things.

>>31984773
What kind of vented barrel is that?

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>>31993838
>What kind of vented barrel is that?

>>31984773
from the massive 1 shot incapacitation rate that dwarfs any handgun

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>>31984773
Knock down power rather than wallbanging.

>>31984773
It won't go through the target and hit someone in another room like an AR platform or even a pistol would. I live in one of those fucked up states that doesn't allow hollowpoints so I'd be shooting FMJs at the guy. Better to stick to buckshot.

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>>31986269
Tell me more about this $400 AR build.

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>>31993838

>>31984951
post thief stories please
How much money did you make? How did you sell the stuff you took? Did you ever get caught?

>>31992946
Yeah because that's an oat grinder

>>31990671
Canadians

>>31994033
that pic is perfect XD

>>31991861
>a 00 12g cart is basically 9 9mm's at one time right into the thorax

What are we insects now?

>>31994001
You know nothing of 5.56/.223. Look up penetration tests before opening your mouth and thinking you're contributing anything.

It will do the exact opposite of what you said. 5.56 is light mass and high velocity, meaning it will not overpenetrate.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really encouraging you to look up those tests. I'm just so sick of people talking about shit they know nothing about as if they're experts.

tl;dr: DO RESEARCH BEFORE SPEAKING, JESUS FUCK.

>>31984773
>easy to maintain
>cheap as fuck
>all kinds of exotic less-lethal loads
>all kinds of hyper-lethal deadly loads
>dramatic action (PUMP GUN SCARE DEM AWAYS)
>is legitimately better for indoors because no over-penetration

>>31994033
Ummm havent you ever heard of a 4d printer? fucking moron.

>>31984807
except then you waste a round, give away your position, and tell the faggot what weapon you have.

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>>31984773
Tru

>>31985486
fudd: the post
an AK or AR is not going to randomly lock on to every child in the vicinity, contrary to what the media tells you. if you know what's behind your target, which you should, and actually aim, a rifle is more likely to hit him and not anybody else than a shotgun.

>>31984773
A .38 revolver loaded with sub-sonic Wadcutters is easier on the ears, while still packing a punch and not over-penetrating.

Shotguns pose a risk of property damage. Why defend a home if you risk damaging property in the process of defending it?

That said, if you live on large plot of land out in the woods, a shotgun is nice to have for engaging fleeing intruders in the middle of the night.

>>31995337
>Why defend a home if you risk damaging property in the process of defending it?
>That said, if you live on large plot of land out in the woods, a shotgun is nice to have for engaging fleeing intruders in the middle of the night.
>using deadly force to defend property
>engaging fleeing intruders

How to go to Prison: the Post

>>31993682
I am best at the Japanese katana

>>31989356
There are only 4 states in the US where Castle Law does not also protect against civil litigation, and one of those is a "pure contrib" state that basically means any lawsuit would immediately be thrown out.

>>31990433
In all fairness a lot of people believe your Super Target ounce of 8s at 1180fps is exactly the same as a heavy field load of an ounce and a quarter of buffered 4s at 1325fps.

Anything #6 or larger shot will be absolutely lethal at HD ranges and meets FBI penetration requirements even on the denim test.

Buckshot is still better though.

>>31993314
...no.

A 12ga sabot is .50cal. They literally use muzzleloader bullets.

A 12ga rifled slug is .70cal.

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>>31993198
choate or butler creek make good sidefolders. as for top folders new production good ones never existed

>>31995337

>standard wadcutters for HD/SD
>for anyone other than frailer women and the elderly

Storytime, I was doing a pack-hunt deep in a rolling, mountainous plot of fracking country and I came upon a doe who had been shot, but non-fatally in the leg. The only other deer with her was a 2x2 not worth a rifle cartridge and I didn't want to waste one on her or make that kind of noise footprint. So, at a range of about 18 yards I drew my Model 10 and sighted along the back of her head and squeezed one off. She began to shake and convulse and flop. I walked up and put another through her eye, it exited the ocular cavity on the other side. Assessing that she was safe to butcher, I set to work. I found a lump a bit above her nose and cut it out. Took a little work because it was half-lodged. It was my wadcutter.

It didn't even through-and through a few portions of deer skull.

They make SD wadcutters, but they aren't the quiet powderpuffs you're thinking of.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that it's because of

>the low price for a functioning shotgun
>the proper penetration when using buckshot
>ease of use
>shoulderable
>ability to own a single firearm for land mammals, air birds, ground birds and home defense just by changing what you load it with and potentially the chokes

It's not the best choice for HD but it certainly seems like the best value. It was what I had under my bed until I got an inexpensive AR.

Oddly enough, even though I recently moved to a shittier city, I actually don't keep anything ready for HD anymore. I'm in a high-rise, you need a key to get into the lobby, I'm on the top floor (gets hot as fuck up here, fucking blows) and I know my neighbors. More importantly than all that, the walls are paper fucking thin so if somebody actually managed to break into my apt, even a colibri powderless .22LR could over penetrate these thin, un-insulated walls into a neighbors room. Like the walls are so thin I can hear my neighbor across from me having a quiet casual conversation with guests in their living room if I'm in mine.

My LC9s (for CC) is always loaded and in my night stand but not because of HD.

>>31984951
Bullshit. If you see a gun laying out you fucking take it.

>>31994234

Wow you really need to get out of the basment

You don't have to aim

>>31997615
not him

but i wouldent do it unless i knew i hade someone who wanted to buy a gun no questions asked

>>31996642
Butler Creek has been discontinued for years.

And this the first time in a long time I saw the Choates in stock. Thanks for reminding me, ordering now.

>>31997660
Tyrone on 5th and MLK will take it off your hands NQA.

>>31998235
>Butler Creek has been discontinued for years.
huh didnt know that but there seem to be plenty of them in stock

>>31984773
Joe Biden

>>31995337
Everything in this post is wrong, I'm actually impressed.

>>31986358
I got my ar for $350

>>31985420
Keked hard at that image senpai.

>>31998316

I got mine for $0.30

>>31998289
Where are you finding them? I can't find them anywhere.

>>31998634
https://www.natchezss.com/butler-creek-protector-folding-stock.html

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>>31984773