/tg/ here. I'm sure this question gets asked a lot, but

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Also, I heard that IED's have killed and injured (dismembered, really) more troops in the recent wars than all the other sources combined.

Could better armor not help reduce the risk (especially against secondary through quaternary blast injuries) of IED's, or is it because of them that more complete armor is negligible? To my understanding, the amount of armoring you need to defend against primary blast injuries is absolutely absurd (see: bomb suits), so I assume anything less than that may be useless against IEDs.

>>31965502
>>31965486
Body armor doesn't do jack shit for overpressure. Your gooey insides get turned to soup no matter what. ever watch the opening scen of the Hurt Locker were the EOD tech's head exploded inside of his helmet? That shit actually happens senpai.

>>31965486
Can't really reply too much cause I'm pulling an all-nighter, people have developed shoulder pads and some coverage for the limbs. Especially on vehicles with door gunners and the such, the armor tends to be heavier.

As for breaching operations, those usually occur on patrols and the such. Thus there isn't much time to get heavy armor on. Not to mention that limb armor would probably more of a interference unless you're going up against pistol rounds.

Putting plates on your arms and legs means adding 30 pounds easy for little benefit. your enemy is aiming center mass, (if they can even aim) you're carrying 100 pounds of shit you don't normally need already, and Uncle Sam foots the bill.


Besides, getting shot in the arms isn't nearly as life threatening as it was 100 years ago. though still potentially crippling.

Why sacrifice mobility to protect nonvital areas? Barring a total collapse of society, grazes and extremity wounds aren't as serious. You will receive medical treatment before you die in most cases.

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>>31965511
forgot pic

>>31965506
So, overpressure is mostly unescapable and that suit may only protect you against shrapnel at best?
Nothing can't protect you from rifle rounds either, right? I'm a complete noob about this, so feel free to school me - I think bullet damage is based mostly on caliber and exit speed.

>>31965506
>overpressure
I thought the point of bomb suits was to protect against primary blast injuries (aka overpressure). Sure, it's not a total guarantee, but there's a whole lot of work, cover, heat, and weight put into those ungodly suits to give the defusers a chance against overpressure and fragmentation (secondary blast injuries).

>>31965520

If you're too close and the blast is too big, overpressure will go through the three layers of the suit.

Here's a quote about the intro to hurt locker.

But the overpressure wave inevitably passes through the rigid armor layer. It then encounters the “anti-coupling material”: a foamy layer of polyurethane or synthetic rubber that absorbs as much of the pulse as possible, like the crumple zone on a car. “It breaks the blast wave,” says Borkar. “These materials will not allow the pressure to pass through without dramatically attenuating it — ideally down to a level that is actually survivable when it reaches your body.”

>>31965520
>Nothing can't protect you from rifle rounds either, right?
Plates prevent the lead from putting holes in your arteries and organs. but the impact will still crack your ribs. though the larger the bullet the more internal damage it'll do. a broken rib and bruised bones is a shitload easier to survive than a sucking chest wound.

Though the bigger your bullet, the more internal damage it'll do. taking a .50 BMG to the plates is a different beast altogether than just a .5.56 or .308. even if it stops the bullet, you'll be hurt pretty bad.

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>>31965502
>>31965486
Its the over pressure that kills from IEDs, not usually fragmentation.

They do have crotch and butt pads as well as shoulder pads, all are soft kevlar and completely useless. They became as iconic as the PT belt in Iraq, every idiot 1sg and CSM wanted all of their guys wearing it all the time, despite it limiting mobility/agility, adding 0 protection, and overheating guys.

>>31965511
As far as breaching goes you can mitigate over pressure by just doing your safety standoff equations correctly. Always have some sanity check your math.

>>31965531
Now every grunt just complains about side saris. They fucking suck, have dubious protective merit and severely limit your mobiliy.

>>31965520
>>31965486

Body armor is not meant to trun a human being into a living walking tank, it is a saving grace for the benefit of taking a few hit's whilst unaware of an active shooter nearby so you can get your ass to cover. Bomb blast suits can only protect from so much overpressure and don't do dick against rifle rounds. Esapi and Xsapi plates are lvl 4 and rater to take several (3-6) 30-06 AP rifle rounds or something equivalent. The are a ceramic/composite plate backed by a Kevlar plate.
The ceramic plate does not stop the bullet, it shatters it into smaller more easily manageable fragments, the Kevlar plate then catches the fragments. Bomb blast armor is made to absorb overpressure, but it can only handle soo much. The preferd method of disarming an IED is just to blow it on sight but you can't always do that. I've seen an EOD tech look at an IED through a robot camera and take off his entire bomb suit to disarm it because he knew anything caught within 50 meters was dead anyway if it went off and the bomb suit wouldn't do shit.

>>31965523
>>31965486

blast suits can only protect you from soo much.

>>31965530
Oh right, I forgot about the plates. I heard it's like being attacked with a hammer: it may hurt and still do quite some damage, but even then it's still better than getting shot naked.
>>31965531
>They do have crotch and butt pads as well as shoulder pads, all are soft kevlar and completely useless.
They are useless? Damn too bad. Still, hard pauldrons would deflect the round upwards into the head, wouldn't it?
>>31965546
>Body armor is not meant to trun a human being into a living walking tank
Booooo!
>even armoured vehicles are vulnerable to antimateriel guns anyway...
Sad. The only possible defense is to not be seen and shoot first.

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>>31965486
The closest thing to a real "gambeson" that soldiers wear these days are kevlar backings worn beneath plates to prevent spalling.

Beyond that, there's old fashiond flak vests, but they don't protect you from direct rifle fire worth shit - heck, a lot aren't even pistol rated - and they're still hot and heavy.

As for leg/arm plates: Anything you made that would reliably stop rifle rounds would be too bulky to be worth it.

Having plates doesn't mean you're immune to bullets. You can get hit a couple times, but after that your protection's compromised and it probably won't hold up to any more hits.

So your primary goal when under fire is still to seek cover and not be hit yourself. Having more coverage doesn't mean much when a couple hits turns you back into a normal squishy dude, but this time with an extra ten pounds on his chest and back.

>>31965535
>As far as breaching goes you can mitigate over pressure by just doing your safety standoff equations correctly.

How in the ever loving fuck are you suppose to do your safety standoff calculation on an IED with an unknown composition and an unknown net explosive weight. The only correct answer for safety standoff on an IED is as fucking far away as you can get and wait until EOD get's there.

>>31965553
>Still, hard pauldrons would deflect the round upwards into the head, wouldn't it?

And probably do so to rounds that would normally have just missed you entirely.

>>31965502
>armor for IEDs
They're call EOD suits.

>>31965577
Not him, but is there truth to the "deflect towards head" schtick? I did some research before posting this thread, and that came up more than once as "a myth that is commonly touted but not proven, yet even so many steel plates include extra precautions for catching deflected bullets because of it."

Also, said deflection is usually associated with steel plates and is a reason people prefer ceramics over them.

>>31965486
Heavy infantry was replaced by armored vehicles. It's physically impossible to put 100mm of armor on a human.

>>31965599
They prefer ceramics because they're much lighter than steel.

As for whether it's a myth or not - who can say? You hear anecdotes, but nothing substantial.

>>31965599
well the issue was with pauldrons. If you did not know pauldrons are round shaped shoulder armor. Bullet tend to deflect a whole lot easier against a rounded surface then a flat one. Especially if said shoulder armor were made of steel.

>>31965486
what I don't get is they adopt m16 and m249 to save weight
but still carry a heap of stuff even before amour

>>31965619
Well, you can get the protection of 100mm of steel with 0.2mm of buckytape, so there's that.

>>31965635
>buckypaper*
Fuck, I always make this mistake.

>>31965486
If you need to advance on a heavily fortified position you use a shield, known as a Scutum in the renaissance Era. It's way way easier to lay armor into a shield pattern than trying to conform it to your body.

>>31965573
Why would you be using HME for breaching? That's some straight retarded shit.

>>31965651
nigga what

>>31965745
Riot shield you fucking mongoloid.

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>>31965520
Think of it like a sword striking mail. If the links of the mail hold, the person wearing it will not be cut.
But they did just get whacked with a metal stick with the force distributed across a thin line.
They’re going to have a nasty bruise at best, broken bones/internal bleeding at worst.

Still, that’s preferably to having a blade embedded in you.

That’s what armor is for. Yes, you can stop the bullet from physically entering your body. But a LOT of the force will still be transferred to you as blunt trauma.

>>31965639
>>31965635
Sure, but you'd have spent more on a single soldier's body armor than it would cost to just build a tank.

>>31965486
>a kevlar gamberson
That would be pretty hard to make, heavy as fuck, not actually be very effective and is just generally a stupid idea

>>31965635
Not exactly. A heavy plate will absorb most of the kinetic energy, while a lighter plate will transfer it to the supporting structure. It's like putting an egg between two steel plates.

>>31965870
There is no riot shield in existence that can block rifle bullets.

We invented artillery

>>31967488
see this. artillery, belt-fed machine gun fire and aerial bombing was responsible for the majority of deaths in early-to-mid 20th century warfare.

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>>31965486
One can only dream of the perfect armor.

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>>31965486
Beyond balancing armor weight and coverage, they also have to balance armor weight with the weight of all the other gear soldiers carry. See pic related.

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>>31965486
>>31968266
Heavier armor does exist and is used, though generally only for turret gunners and some SWAT teams that don't have to worry about all the other gear soldiers normally carry.

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>>31965486
>>31968290
Pic related is the old Interceptor body armor with all the extra kevlar coverage they could give turret gunners.

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>>31965486
>>31968304
And another example of more kevlar coverage for turret gunners. Regular soldiers and SWAT teams however aren't going to want to deal with all the weight of this much kevlar as it doesn't stop rifle rounds.

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>>31965486
>>31968313
There still have been attempts at lighter, less bulky kevlar coverage for SWAT teams, like Crye's hitcoat sleeves.

>>31965530
>crack your ribs

This has been proven false by physics for decades

>>31965486
>>31965502

The more shit ya wear, the heavier it is. The heavier it is, the more likely you are to become a heat casualty or fatigue casualty, which is already more likely than being shot or blown up. As far as IED protection, the armor wouldn't help a lot at contact distances and there's some shit you don't want to survive. If I ever lose a major limb or two, I'm gonna fight the medic if I'm coherent enough that way I don't have to live that way.

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>>31965486
>>31968327
Crye also does have options for more coverage with rifle plates for turret gunners that could possibly see use by SWAT teams if the department has enough money to throw at them.

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>>31965486
>>31968354
There also have been other options designed for SWAT teams but they never caught on.

>>31967467
That's wrong. Riot shields are still not used in the military to advance on fortified positions so it doesn't matter whether they exist or not anyways.

>>31965530
>Plates prevent the lead from putting holes in your arteries and organs. but the impact will still crack your ribs. though the larger the bullet the more internal damage it'll do. a broken rib and bruised bones is a shitload easier to survive than a sucking chest wound.
What the hell are you spewing? Are you not aware that modern plate armor either following the american ballistic standard or the US militarys have to pass the Back face Deformation tests? A test where the deformation behind the plate is not allowed to pass a certain depth limit, otherwise it would be dangerous for the wearer?

>taking a .50 BMG to the plates is a different beast
Yeah considering that there is no plate that you can buy or is used that can stop a 50 BMG in existence.

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>>31965486
>>31968365
The US military also does have the TALOS program that they're working on which involves giving soldiers a powered exoskeleton for their legs so that they can carry more armor coverage. Rifle plate coverage claims for the TALOS program vary between 40% and 60% of the soldiers body. Pic related is one company's entry.

is the lower body not protected as it is the most likely part to be behind cover?

>>31968415
Because it has less vital parts to living. A gut shot can be lethal, but you can usually live long enough to be taken to medical care with one. Not so with a heart or lung shot.

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>>31967467
Those aren't called shields anymore, anon. It'd be more accurate to call them mantlets, which are more mobile cover than a shield, and they can protect you against rifle bullets, but are difficult to employ and only fancy swat teams use them, IF ever.
>>31967747
Please tell me he has a fancy helmet as well, I don't want to post my Ferrus Manus pic.

>>31965486
Modern US soldiers already carry so much that it's rare to meet a vet who doesn't have some sort of body fuck up from carrying so much weight.

Adding more weight to areas where, barring melee-only combat, aren't important zones is stupid.

You'll be giving them more weight, which mess they can carry less water, ammunition, explosives, etc, for protection that won't even really work.

The amount of weight and thickness our materials need to be to stop most rifle rounds would mean that you would be at LEAST doubling the weight of body armor - something that already ways too fucking much - in order to do that.

Anything less in terms of weight and thickness just doesn't stop the kinds of ammunition that we would be dealing with.

All in all, covering your extremities was useful as hell back when a person could actively target your un-covered areas for some sort of advantage. These days, it's unimportant as hell unless you're in a bar fight.

>>31968923
hell I don't see why we don't just give our soldiers a concealable level 2a vest and a plate carrier to go on top. would be light and would provide decent protection..

>>31965486
Armor got smaller as immediate medical treatment of wounds to the non vital organs and medevac advanced. A shot to the arms and legs can be handled pretty easily now so the advantage of mobility and less weight became much more viable.

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>>31965486
If you have time to prepare it's safer to just blow up the whole building.
If you don't have time to prepare you won't be using the suits anyway.

>>31965530
YOu don't actually know what you're talking about, and should stop.

>but the impact will still crack your ribs
Only if the armor is defective.

>taking a .50 BMG to the plates is a different beast altogether
Because literally no personal armor in the world is fucking rated for it.

Try doing a modicum of research before commenting on something you piece of shit.

>>31965621
Pauldrons don't exist anymore, and current shoulder armor isn't shaped in a way that would od that.

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>>31965486

It's all about lightening the burden on the wearer's skin.

>>31966500
>But a LOT of the force will still be transferred to you as blunt trauma.
Not it fucking won't. Solid fucking plates, or heavy fabric defenses have ABSOLUTELY NO similarity to a fucking wire mesh in how they behave. None.

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Could a plate + kevlar ballistic armour be made, or do we fall again in the "you cannot make a tank out of a man and it'll cost as much as an actual tank" problem?
I mean things today are already resilient to most pistol calibers, right? Like those Hollywood shootout guys that were defeated only through mass fire by under armed cops.

>>31969425
No. The weight would be absurd.

>>31968415
and because it severely limits your ability to get to and take cover. abdominal armor makes it harder to crouch, and strapping heavy armor plates you your legs makes it hard to run

>>31969573

What if we only recruited swole jockeys, so the actual weight of the armor would be less because it would have to cover less area?

>>31969734
Wouldn't matter.

>>31969352
You still get bruised the fuck up by rifle rounds man.

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>>31965486
>Renaissance-era armor
>full coverage
Actually during Renaissance armor had to face same problems under pressure of increasing power of the guns and their availability. Protection and coverage vs mobility and fatigue. Coverage of armor continuously decreased but at the same weight in attempt to achieve bulletproofing increased . Armor more and more became liability and we see soldiers started to discard it.

>>31970007

No, you don't. I personally know a fellow soldier who took six to the fucking plate.

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>>31969425
>I mean things today are already resilient to most pistol calibers, right?
Kevlar is resistant only to conventional lead core FMJ bullets. Hard core and pointed bullets go through kevlar like hot knife through butter even at pistol level power.

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>>31970484
Booooo. Give wearable tank nao.

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>>31970466
ty 4 ur cervex

>>31970828

Eat my ass.

>>31968266
Should be noted that with the advent of exoskeletons, we'll start seeing much heavier armor sets in the future become regular use.

>>31969425
Kevlar is, by weight, already many times stronger than steel. Metal in general is also absolute garbage at dissipating energy due to it's rigidity, that's why metal armor inserts were replaced with ceramics. They are far less durable but far better at dissipating energy.

Putting enough metal onto a man to have any meaningful level or protection would easily double if not triple the weight of the armor. Baring some breakthrough in metallurgy and the invention of a cheap, lightweight, super strong alloy that blows the fuck out of everything we currently have, metal has no place in personal body armor.

>>31971787
No we fucking won't! The Pentagon is never gonna foot the bill for $100K exosuits let alone the logistics necessary to support it at a battalion wide level. We waste enough time fixing 7 tons and LVSR's in the field when they decide to shit the bed.

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>>31973187
>Metal in general is also absolute garbage at dissipating energy due to it's rigidity, that's why metal armor inserts were replaced with ceramics
that are even more rigid.

>>31974610
Ceramic absorbs a lot of energy when it shatters.

DELETE THE THREAD BEFORE ARMOROUS SHOWS UP DEAR GOD PLEASE

>>31968931
This

>>31971787
okay dumbass, the very Idea of exoskeletons in a traditional sense is really impractical. The energy needs, the lack of high speed hydraulics/servomotors, it just isnt practical

>>31974806
Basically, rigidity has nothing to do with it and you are just pulling shit out of your ass.

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OP is Uwe Boll.

>>31965486

US Army has fielded and still issues shoulder protection pauldrons that wrap around the upper arms and cover the shoulder. They have also issued a Kevlar "diaper" that give frag protection to your whole undercarriage region, to protect the arteries therein. Along with this there have been neck protectors and a dick flap and butt flap on the IOTV that protects the femoral artery.

They are hot, heavy, chafe and are just terrible. Just fucking terrible.

Would you rather have a group of soldiers with lighter armor that still protects the vitals against immediate death who are lighter, cooler, more comfortable and more alert to their surroundings able to maybe SEE an IED emplaced or spot an enemy at distance, or would you rather have a group of soldiers exhausted by heavy armor, uncomfortable, constantly adjusting their gear so it doesn't rub and chafe and irritate who are vastly more focused on how uncomfortable their shitty heavy hot armor is than watching for threats?

The long and short of it is Special Forces, the guys who really know how to fight and do it a lot are going for lighter and lighter kit. An IED is going to make you a red mist regardless, might as well be light and comfortable so you can be alert five miles into your patrol.

Also, the idea of a heavily armored shock troop is just idiotic. You can't just "take" hits from a machine gun or rifle unless you are made of steel and are a literal tank.

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>>31975751
The people on the board are quite ignorant to the backroom whispers of the defence industry.
The idea of heavy infantry is to soak up as much small light arms as possible not heavy anti vehicle rounds. A role best filled by heavy moto cavalry. Flex panels will render monolithic ceramic OBSOLETE within the next 3-5 years multi 20+ .308/m855A1 LAP hit plates under 5 lbs have been the norm. contracts have been in place by SOCOM for the last couple years. It's nothing new or special really to the privileged few who have connections and can afford the best.
3 things to stay away from armor is
- Bulk
-Weight
- ICW

Things you want in armor
- under 2/3s inch in bulk
-lightweight under 5 lbs nominal of 4 lbs recommended.
-Ergonomic fitment to include flexibility if the panel supports it.

Silicon carbide (SIC3) is the best base material to utilize for the best armor as of right now. It retains its bernal hardness higher then AO2 but just a little bit less then boron carbide while retaining some of boron carbides AP protection properties.I firmly believe it will improve over boron carbide with innovative compression and chemical adhesive technologies.

.>>31969313
1.4 lb rifle rated armor for m193/m855 and .308 /crossbow shoulder armor just came out this year. the system was close to 800.00 usd but it works. Stay ignorant it only gives me more of an advantage.

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>>31976363
> AO2
Correction it's technically called Al2O3 or aluminum oxide.

>>31975751
>You can't just "take" hits from a machine gun or rifle
Yes you can. Do some basic research.

>>31976363
>Flex panels
Have fun dying from behind armor trauma.
http://archiwum.ciop.pl/19593

>>31976363
All those buzzwords, and nothing to back it up. Sounds like defence industry talk alright.

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>>31968354
That shit is HALO as fuck

>>31976363
>>31976389
plz tell me more

you have some links?

>>31976667
>armor trauma
fancy term for blunt force or back face .deformation anon. Did you even read the PDF you link or do you save it for rare occasions?They make truma reduction pads for blunt trauma that add little to no weight and retain flexibility. Shocktec is the best one right now.
https://outerarmortactical.com/products/shocktec-kinetic-impact-pad

>>31977693
http://hoplitearmor.com/product/level-iii-shoulder-plates-v3/
http://stealtharmorsystems.com/products/new-silicon-carbide-hexar-3-rifle-defeating-flex-plates

>>31968383
>have to pass the Back face Deformation tests? A test where the deformation behind the plate is not allowed to pass a certain depth limit, otherwise it would be dangerous for the wearer?
Fan fact: 44mm back face deformation limit has no scientific basis when it comes to high velocity rifle ammunition. This criteria was designed and tested with animals around .38 Special pistol ammunition than transferred to rifle velocities without any confirmation of validity of such transfer.
Even more funny fact: back face deformation limit for helmets tests has no scientific basis whatsoever.

>>31977732
https://nelsonuniform.com/products/7-62x39-msc-super-light-armor-applique-plate-slaap-helmet-plate?variant=20847250311

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Pretty much the best possible armour you can wear in a war is what cops wear. Soft IIIa kevlar, no groin or neck or shoulder bulltshit, pic related with and molle basically. Most trauma on a battlefield aren't even war related, those that are are caused by artillery/IED. A vest and helmet will protect you best against those. Plates aren't useless of course, but they rarely save lives.
>inb4 people post that combat medic shot with a dragunov
>inb4 can't inb4
lrn2read

http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2012/ARL-RP-390.pdf

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>>31977733
So basically you made a post claiming that all armor in general is invalid? That million dollar defense contractors that test, perform R&D
get a product approved to stop given rounds do not work? Fix yourself

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>>31977757
seriously

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>>31977757
>Most trauma on a battlefield aren't even war related

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>>31977757

>>31977820
>getting shit in their eyes
>falling from vehicules
>twisting ankles
Yeah pretty much, real life isn't call of duty.

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>>31977840
>getting shit in their eyes from explosions
>falling from vehicles while on patrol
definitely war related.

>twisted ankles
not trauma.

>>31977859
Don't be dense, I meant while engaged in firefights with the enemy. Catching falling tools on your skull or similar, "while in a warzone" isn't war related. Also yeah I should've used injuries, not trauma, English isn't my first language.

>>31977773
Pure music
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3970092/

>>31976363
>3 things to stay away from armor is
>- ICW
why?

>>31977733
44mm seems like a huge margin of safety for back face deformation. It might have no basis but that doesn't mean you can say one way or another whether it is adequate.