so /k/. im building my first ar and i am wondering, do i

>>31907389

Stick to a regular DI build for your first.

BTW long handguards look cool but needlessly heavy. Have a 15" on my carbine and changing it soon.

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>>31907389
for your first time, start with the basics. start with known-to-work stuff before you run off and get all experimental. DI.

picture unrelated to post content

>>31907401
>>31907398
do you guys have some good websites where i can browse alot of parts? i already have the stripped lower. kinda not sure where to shop. i know cheaper than dirt pulled some shady shit with pricing so i dont wanna buy from them

>>31907405

http://palmettostatearmory.com/ is popular

Midway and Brownells if you already have an idea of what you want since they sell stuff for every other type of gun as well.

Is there literally any benefit of a 20" over an 16" barrel if I dont ever intend to use this particular ar past 300 yards?

>>31907398
yeah, that's why people use long handguards. Thanks for showing how much you actually shoot.

>>31907507
i have an 18'' barrel and my friend got a 16'', i would suggest the 16'' barrel as the 18+ barrels are long as shit and heavy.

Unless your going for 1000 yards plus dont bother with anything over 16.

DI and kiss

This is bait

>>31907561
>.223
>over 500 yards

being this new should warrant your death

>>31907507

>Asks shooting 101 question

>Makes fun of another post that distinguishes between practical and tacticool handguard lengths.


Maybe you should just stick with Airsoft for awhile.

>>31909479
>never hitting a 1000 yard target with a .223
fucking casual

>>31907389
DI.

Most piston ARs made are not done properly, though there are some that are perfectly good but I don't know the offhand.

If you want a piston, why not just get an AK style rifle? There's other purpose built piston rifles too.

I say purpose built because a "di" rifle (which the AR is not, but I know what you mean and I'm not here to split hairs) can't just be turned into a piston rifle properly by slapping a piston into the design. The STARBOLT AND CHAMBER that the bolt egagez don't do well when pulled backlike a piston will do. The design essentially espands apart from pressure delivered into the bolt carrier via the gas tube (like a ballon). The starbolt then pushes off, not unlike a hydraulic piston. Stoner actually called the system some sort of piston bimself in the patent (and said it wasn't di).

Anyway, if you just use a piston to push the bolt carrier group back from the top, the bolt is going to smash that chamber AND itself apart over ti e. I've seen piston ARs that had one or more "nubs" of the starbolt knocked off. Now with a redesign, this can work, but then you aren't using standard AR parts, which is a big reason to own an AR in the first place.

So if you want a piston gun, just go with one of the purpose built, numerous, piston rifles. Then you'll be able to use standard parts from that system.

IN MY OPINION, assault rifles (intermediate round rifles) are better served by a piston because the accuracy/consistency advantage of a standard AR is lost on the short engagment ranges. YES some ARs are used out beyond 300m, but most of you all will only be shooting at HD ranges, 15m.

AR10 type rifles should always be the standard system though, you really can take advantage of that inline recoil with .308.

>expensive, heavy, proprietary bullshit? sign me up!

>>31911494
Same poster here


In short
>AR15s should be the standard system, NOT piston usually

BUT
>piston rifles are better for intermediate round rifles because it don't fucking matter at that range

AND
>if you want piston, get a purpose built piston rifle in whatever caliber you want

By The Way, I own a standard AR15, and I love it. It is ubiquitous in America, and I can get parts and mags easily. The advantage of a piston doesn't really matter unless you were shooting non-stop for a VERY long time and you didn't have much time to clean it during, like a siege. AKA things that likely won't happen to us. An AK is quick to get back into working order when fouled up.

BUT AR15s/M16s have fired thousands, I've heard even over 10,000 rounds without the fouling causing serious issue, and that is without cleaning (but clearing fouling once it does become a problem from an AR15 DOES take longer than an AK, but this will likely never matter to any of us).

Whatever you do, go with high quality parts. A shit AR15 will be first issue vietnam-tier, and a shit ak will fall apart on you. If you rifle is built well, it could go through almost any hell (mud, water buried in shit for a long time) and survive with a clearing and cleaning.

Most of the gas is routed outside the bolt carrier through the little holes in the side.

See video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPwTGfhUulk

There is really no reason for a piston in the design because if there was, it would have been designed that way. For your first one, I would suggest a PSA kit like another anon already suggested. If you can find a pinned 14.5 inch barrel, get it. If not, try and find a 16 inch with a mid length gas system. There is too much dwell time on a carbine gas system with a 16 inch barrel.

If you get anything, just make sure it's chrome lined. You'll appreciate it in the long run if you're not going for pinpoint accuracy.

Lots of manufactures will advertise "Chrome Moly" barrels. This is completely different, and is just plain old barrel steel but they use it to fool people. You need to specify "Chrome Lined".

For regular ammo, a 1/9 twist is the best compromise. It will allow stabilization of most bullets 75 grains and below.

The ultra-fast 1/7 tends to overspin smaller bullets like the 45-55 grain bullets causing erratic groups, but they do work well for 62-90 grain bullets if you are trying to push the gun at longer ranges.

Long story short, do some research on rifling rates and gas system lengths and make an educated guess. it's hard to go wrong.

>>31911494
>>31911549
Sorry for the typos, wrote this on my phone.

>>31907389
Go di. If you're planning on a basic bitch build or only like a single component just buy a complete rifle.
>But anon I want to save monies
When it comes to basic Ar-15 rifles you're saving not saving a while lot of cash. I'm sorry, but it's true.

>>31911630
This motherfucker know what's up, OP.

>>31911684
*You're not saving a whole lot of cash*
No clue how I fucked that up

>>31907389
That upper looks like a power strip. Is it for a faggy flashlight attachment?

>tfw no fleshlight on AR

>>31911630
>For regular ammo, a 1/9 twist is the best compromise. It will allow stabilization of most bullets 75 grains and below.
You mean 1/8 right? Cause shooting 75 gr bullets through a 1/9 is just pissing away outside of a defensive shooting

>>31907389
Get D.I. gas piston is technically better but not several hundred dollars better. It also means you should stick with the company's barrel and rail because the piston system is proprietary and you don't know if it will fit with other manufacturers

>>31911710
See below

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/bullet_spin_rates.html

A 75 grain projectile at 2600 FPS out of a 1/9 twist barrel is still spinning over 200,000 RPM.

A 75 grain from this twist will be just fine, I know because I've done it a lot.

>>31907507
Technically the longer gas ststem and barrel are more reliable but you should never ever see a difference if you build a quality firearm.

>>31911630
>>31911761
This is just anecdotal, but I've heard 75gr out of 1/9 is a mixed bag. Some 1/9 guns handle 75gr great, some don't.

If I could make any change to my rifle, it'd probably be making it 1/8 instead of 1/9. But I mostly shoot 55gr, so w/e.

Fat heavy bullets fuck things up though. I wonder if 75gr tends to over pen more or less in HD ranges. What's the velocity of most 75gr rounds versus 55gr?

>>31911886
>What's the velocity of most 75gr rounds versus 55gr?
Quick googling looks like it's A-R-O-U-N-D 300fps, with 55gr being the faster.

>>31907389
Good info in this thread, thinking of making a pasta from a few post.

Is the do/k/ument still a thing, is there another /k/ infomation repository?

>>31911684
>>31911700
>You're not saving a whole lot of cash
I know a basic AR15 build can cost $500 or a little less.

Where are the basic ARs that cost about that much complete and new? I mean this sincerely, I want them.

>>31909479
556 out shot 762 years ago desu

>>31911693
yes, pay attention to him

>>31911761
Or just buy a 1:8 or 1:7 and not worry if it's going fast enough

>>31912790
Because numales took over

>>31912782
What's your build that's coming in at less than $500?

>>31912782
The tools can easily add another $100 new.

>>31909479
.223 can and will kill reliably at 800 yards.

>>31914219
what tools besides a buffer wrench?

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>>31914300
You will need a tool for your barrel nut. Depending on what you pick for a handguard, it may contain the proper wrench head for the barrel nut. You will also need a foot-pounds torque wrench, and an inch-pounds torque driver if you feel like it. You will also need a bench vice, so hopefully you know someone that has one (they are expensive as fuck) and a bench vice to hold your upper receiver when you install the barrel and handguard. Magpul's BEV block served me well as an upper receiver vice block.

Going to need a hammer/punches, ideally a brass/plastic head 'soft' hammer. Hex wrenches/drivers galore and maybe a philips or flat screwdriver also depending on your pistol grip choice.

>>31914300

Torque wrench that attaches to it. Receiver blocks. Bench vice if you don't have one already. Drift punches.

That's just off the top of my head there might be more it's been years since I've done my build.


I've heard you don't NEED some of them but for your first build it's cheap insurance to make sure you do it right. Personally I think the table vice is an absolute necessity since I'm not sure how you'd be able to torque down the barrel or the muzzle break enough without one.

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>>31914300
>>31914360
Forgot you'll also need a wrench head for your torque wrench to install your flash hider/brake, and a vice grips will come in handy to put in some of the roll-pins, such as the ones for the bolt catch and gas tube. Those two particularly are a bitch to use a punch on.

>>31914360
>they are expensive as fuck
nope

>>31914402
>nope
Prove it.

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>>31912790
ok.. well it doesnt but.. w/e

>>31914402

You CAN find them at yard sales or maybe craigslist but it's going to take awhile unless you're lucky.

If they're wanting to build it under $500 and haven't even accounted for the tooling necessary I'd say it's fair to say the vice is "expensive as fuck" given their budget.

>>31914412
http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/vises-anvils.html?order=Sort+Price%2Ct

>>31914454
The only acceptable ones on there are fucking $50. A guy could probably make that shitty drill press vice work, or even that chinky carpenter vice.

>>31914489
Almost all of those would work just fine for building an AR.

>>31914503
You'd be a fucking retard to use one less than 4" wide for working on an AR.

>>31914503
i agree. a $30 vice from harbor freight would absolutely work for assembling an ar upper.(and 20% off coupon)

>>31914523
Too late, he already bought the one with the suction base.

>>31914534
>he already bought the one with the suction base.

Man if anyone buys that thing to torque shit, they deserve to break whatever the fuck is around them along with that piece of shit.

Vacuum securing will not fucking cut it for torquing anything.

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>>31914439
>You CAN find them at yard sales
>gun parts
>at yard sales

whew lad

>>31914584
>>gun parts

Vices you dumb fuck.

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>>31914584

>>31914360
If $25 for a vice is expensive as fuck for you you have no business being in guns and you need to reevaluate what the fuck you're doing with your life

>>31914704
>If $25
Yeah all the ones I see cost as much as my fucking lower, which is a pretty goddamn hefty price in the middle of the rifle itself.

>hurr durr.

You want to try again?

I pretty much only buy and shoot 55gr shit, but want to be able to shoot whatever I come across

Should I go for 1/9 twist or 1/8

>>31914760
1/8. If you're shooting 55 grain accuracy doesn't even matter that much, it's usually some shitty M193.

>>31914737
There are different vices
A light weight modern bench vice you buy from a big box retailer? Probably won't even break $50.

A vice that will last you, your kids, and the cockroaches after the Ion Storm Wars? That shit will cost you over a few hundred dollars.

Buy a used american/japanese made vice that isn't too big and mount it onto a square of plywood and c-clamp that sucker down onto any table.

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>>31914760
1/8 for the versatility.
But to be honest, if you see yourself shooting some premium higher grain stuff, there's no problem with 1/8 or 1/7

Anywhere know where i can get a sr15 with the mod1 rail for less than 3k?
I shouldve picked one up for 2k when i could

>>31907389
Di and then change upper with side charging handle.

>>31916841
my friend sold his for 1600
u could prob find just the rail and put it on a mod 2 and resell the urx4

>>31916966
Delete this.

>>31917035
Thats a pretty solid idea actually.
How much do you think the urx4 is worth, i doubt its as much as the urx3

>>31917099
around 230 new

>>31917099
oh forgot to mention, it was 1700 and was heavily used
if I were you I would buy a mod 2 keymod, but that's just what I did

>>31917130
Thats not too bad, i could probably sell it for like 170.

>>31917139
Think im gonna go with the dudes plan, get a mod2, sell the rail and throw the older one on. I dont like keymod that much and urx 3 looks wau better

>>31907389
I think you are better off investing the money for a piston into a better barrel and bolt.
Otherwise if budget is no limit its
>fewer or no prorietary parts, cheaper, higher potential accuracy and lower weight
vs
>easier cleaning, longer lube lifetime and adjustable gas vent for supressing and wider variety of munition

>>31917169
they are 270 on brownells
the mloks are ~300 more (you could literally just buy the keymod and get an aftermarket mlok for the same price)
the URX 3 is a good design, but it's a little odd
I'm still running the keymod urx on mine, awesome rifle
thinking about trading it in for a scar but having a hard time justifying the price hikes right now due to lack of importation

>>31917181
if you are spending piston money, just get a SCAR or something else, piston ars are no beuno

>>31917187
I bought a scar back when fn had that promotion for a free trigger.

I figure if im buying an ar i might as well go top of the line you know? I didnt know they made an mlok rail

>>31917247
the mloks come with a ctr and generally run around 2300 lol, so it's literally 400 more
going back, I would have picked up a 17 instead, wishing I would have done that now
if an AR is what you love, get it, but it's quite a bit to spend for an AR

>>31911630
Its cheaper and venting the gas through the bolt causes the lube to dry quicker.
The Stoner gas system (not a real DI btw) is designed for minimum weight and recoil. You see it with the unlocking via gas pressure from the inside redirected twards the breach instead of simply against the gas key like with a piston.

But it has to be run wet which is a bummer for lazy people so not having to lube the bolt every 500 rounds is kind of the selling point of piston conversions.
Then again why get an AR with piston if its not cheaper than something designed around a piston?
>>31917195
Couldnt you get two piston ARs for the price of a SCAR?
Oh btw I saw Germany is selling off their G36 now because of their fake scandal.
If any of you does imports they should take a look at em and see if they cant be converted cheap enough.
Im pretty sure at the end it will still be cheaper than a SCAR.

>>31917272
a piston worth a shit won't be under the scar, mr556s run around 2600-2700 now
if you just want an adams arms kit go ahead, but don't be surprised when your buffer tube tilts and rips apart


g36 won't be imported

>>31917288
>2600-2700
That sounds awfully steep.
So there you have it OP DI or twice the price.
>g36
Well its not registered in the US so it could be converted or sold partially in kits to circumvent the mg ruling then again it might be 3k at the end as well.

>>31917336
piston wise, when you include cost as a factor, the AK still is the best really
I wouldn't trust any piston with my life other than an HK

For a first AR-15, it should be DI.

Piston is better than DI for:
Suppression
Barrels shorter than 14.5"
Full Auto
Shooting a wide variety of ammo
If you hate cleaning

I honestly think that piston AR will be the future but that doesn't mean that they're significantly better than identical DI rifles.

>>31917367
I dont see that much of an advantage in short over longstroke pistons apart from a little lower weight.
I think roller lock would be the way to go but thats been abandonned for intermediates ever since the spanish fucked up the cetme hasnt it?

>>31917501
I just meant cost factor, not really the type of piston
roller locks are cool designs, but def dated imo

>>31917513
There has been nothing new under the sun ever since stoner.
I think its overly heavy thats just german engineering to inspire confidence.

>>31907405
Spike's Tactical is also a good brand/site to check out. Availability can be a bit spotty with them due to demand but they're solid rifles and my understanding is that their customer service is great.

Gonna go with the general attitude in the thread and suggest DI. There's nothing wrong with piston overall, but if it's your first build, start with DI.

>>31917533
it's not an unreliable design, it's just a bit dated when you have SCARS and the like
I really am a huge fan of the SCAR, but there are other platforms just as good if not better
I think reliability is an extremely overused factor in modern semi autos (1940s +)
when you get into older designs, like the M1A for example, then you run into issues. I have no idea why anyone would consider an M1A for a combat rifle, it isn't up to par in 2016, just due to the nature of the design it is inherently less reliable

>>31917533
>>31917513
I mean roller locks are the apex of delayed blowbacks and especially for smaller calibers its the preferred mechanism.
Cost wise its only expensive because HK has been dicking around and the mechanism will last as long as the barrel. Only real downside is being pickier with loads but standard NATO issue kind of makes that moot.

>>31917583
if not counting the stoner system, agreed
I'd take one into combat, and a lot of places in the world still do
I think the FAL is one of the most overrated semi autos really
Tilts just don't lend themselves to accuracy, and I'm just not a huge fan of the FAL
def has better ergos, but ergos are not everything

>>31917570
>M1A
Never touched one but istn the bolt a delayed rotational one? Didnt that cause all kinds of fucked up issues with disassembly and isnt its stupid gas piston uncovered or was that at least fixed?
I heard most malfunctions were from tangential contact with the gas piston.

>>31917603
Well the FAL is sexy but thats kind of where it ends unless you really hate glass.
Does the stoner system count as a delayed blowback? Sounds kind of like a stretch...

>>31917603
Pretty much any modern semi auto thats well made can get into the 1-2moa range without any dicking around with it. This includes the FAL.

>>31907405
I dont know what your budget is but rather than buying a bulk lower parts kit you can also get them individually in non milspec configurations like ambidextrous fire selectors, titanium pins, bigger bolt release catch etc.
You can actually find many of these on ebay and amazon too and it helps to have a photo of all the parts labeled. Theres a lot of fancy shit that is unnecessary but I would advise you to not cheap out on the trigger.
Many people buy cheap but then replace the parts later so you end up with a bunch of spare basic parts and then of course you have no choice but to build another gun and the process starts over

>>31911630
Nitride > chrome lined

1/9 is shit for anything other than 55gr

Dwell time isn't a big issue. Carbine length actually feeds more reliably. Mid length and rifle length have issues with light loads depending on gas port size. Mid is just best compromise.

My blackout is 16" with pistol gas. Over dwelled a ton but only issue is gas hitting face from charging handle crack.

>>31917609
it was cutting edge in the 30s, now not so much
it's also just really open and it's easy to get obstructions in it
it's a fun rifle to shoot, but other than typical civilian use, is totally outdated in my eyes
I'm surprised that the m39s even exist, but that might be more of a logistical fix than anything
>>31917627
no
>>31917638
you are telling me a run of the mill FAL is more accurate than a g3? not so sure about that
yes, it can be upgraded, but we all know that the g3 has inherent superiority when it comes to accuracy
they are both good rifles with their own merits, but in this case the g3 wins out in my book
>>31917663
why do you think nitride is better?

>>31917666
A mofuckan AR10 and/or fullsize rifle ARwidget is best for those large rifle rounds. If accuracy, consistency, and refire rate are your primary concerns.

Inline, and better managed recoil, light, greated floated barrel options (out the gate), and magazines are not fal rare, but not ptr cheap.

I want a fucking 30-06 AR10 so badly, but not that noreen abomination that ruined the sealed system for no reason.

>>31917666
Not that guy but isnt nitride more resilient as a finish?

>>31917722
>220gr capable ofc

>>31917666
Im telling you that if you got together quality parts, had them assembled by a skilled smith, it would not matter if it was an AR, AK, G3, FAL, SCAR, Tavor, ACR, whatever. Getting the rifle to do under 2moa will happen.

Start cheaping out on barrel, ammo, etc, your going to run into some accuracy problems.

>>31917792
>it would not matter if it was an AR, AK, G3, FAL, SCAR, Tavor, ACR, whatever.

Ehh. As much as I love my WASR and AK's in general, my AR will always have more potential for accuracy just in the nature of its mechanics. The dynamics of each particular operating system cannot be argued.

Even if I re-barreled my WASR with the best fucking barrel I could find, the nature of its long-stroke piston operation clattering along the bolt rails, against an off-center spring and then forward are going to detract from the overall accuracy somewhere.

Compare this to my AR's 'dirty impingement', where the BCG is almost fully enclosed in a tube-like receiver and cushioned by a centered spring and is not carrying a fucklong piston along with it.

>>31918841
I think the other poster was simply saying anything can be sub 2 moa here if it is hiqh quality and well made. I don't think they were saying everything has the same high-end potential accuracy.

>>31917666
Nitride doesn't change the dimensions of the steel appreciably. Chrome lining does so it's hard to make it as accurate. It also improves corrosion resistance and can be even better than chrome lining for this. However because it's just treating the steel it won't hold up as well under full auto because the chrome lining insulates the underlying barrel from the heat of the gases.

>>31921532
Couldn't a barrel producer take into account dimensional changes that happen from chrome-lining and make their barrels X wider, leaving it the proper size for good accuracy after chrome-lining?

>>31922853
that's what they do anyway
the chrome lining isn't absolutely evenly thick when it's applied

>>31907389
Just depends on what you're into.
>bench queen
DI (also 308)
>pretending you're going overthrow the government one day
Piston

>>31924452
So "why" is chrome-lining a detriment to accuracy at all? Is it a lack of consistency in application?

Tell me your story.

>>31925176
>being wrong

It's di for both if it's an AR.

>>31926057
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating

It's very hard to do chrome plating well enough to not impact accuracy and you basically have to deposit too much and then cut the barrel again and polish again to get the right dimensions and accuracy. You've doubled the barrel cost when you could just nitride and get almost all the benefits at a much lower cost.

It is very rare to see chrome lined barrels for this reason. Chrome lining primarily beats nitride in heat resistance as the chrome insulates the substrate from flame erosion. None of that really matters when you aren't going to be going full auto anyways.