What if Hitler never attacked in the West?

Oh look it's another Nazi apologist alternate WWII thread

How refreshing and interesting

>>31706248
>asks about a scenario you never hear anyone talking about
>nazi apologist
ok.jpg

>>31705975
The Western powers weren't going to let Germany withdraw her economic bounty from the global market.

If you weren't aware, Churchill was pretty much a war mongering asshole who wanted to annihilate Germany.

>>31706305
>I think both the image of Nazis as evil & the claim that they were trying to conquer the world were born during the war along with a lot of other propaganda

You don't even understand what you're saying

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>Hitler dindunuffin
>Churchill was the REAL bad guy

Wehraboo thread #1234932

>>31705975
>the claim that they were trying to conquer the world were born during the war

>Invade every country you can
>People start thinking you're a country that tries to invade everyone

NO? REALLY?

>>31706306
>If you weren't aware, Churchill was pretty much a war mongering asshole who wanted to annihilate Germany.
I am aware, it's just that I don't see why people don't realise that Churchill allowing Germany to grow in power wasn't any more unlikely than Germany choosing not to attack Soviet Union, yet the latter scenario has probably been discussed a million times by someone in the time it took me to write this comment.

>>31706334
There was never a possibility of the major Western powers not getting involved.

Germany became an economic powerhouse who completely went against western economic theory, and there wasn't a chance in hell that they'd risk having that shit spread around outside of Germany.

>>31706324
countries invaded/annexed by Germany:
*Czechoslovakia, Austria and Poland: former German/Holy Roman Empire clay.
*Denmark: staging ground for Norway
*Norway: to deny Britain access to Swedish iron ore & Secure Germany's continued access
*Benelux: go around Maginot
*France: leaving an enemy you are at war with un-checked would be retarded, better attack before *they* attack
*Britain: try to pound them into submission so that you can focus on your real target Russia
*Balkans: fucking retard Mussolini got himself into a trouble & for some reason you still need him so better help
*North Africa: same as above

countries *not* annexed or invaded by Germany: Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey...

>>31706351
don't forget the "independent" nation of palestine

>>31706317
who exactly was calling Nazis evil before the war, tell me? Soviets? they called everyone who wasn't communist & even many communists evil, who else? No, the shit about Nazis being evil and Nazi world domination started after the war had already started, it's standard propaganda, everyone calls their enemy evil during war, the problem is usually people stop saying that after the war is over, but in Nazi-Germany's case war-time propaganda & post-war knowledge about what was happening in Germany are used as arguments to justify the declaration of war, these arguments would have had little effect before the war because none of that post-war shit was known yet & the propaganda about Nazis being evil didn't exist yet.

Nazis certainly were bad and I am happy that Allies got rid of them, what I am trying to say is people should take their heads out of their asses and recognize the war-time propaganda for what it is: propaganda, maybe then they'd notice that there's little proof of the German leaders even dreaming of world domination, left alone trying to achieve it. They wanted a powerful German empire, but world domination? That's a step or a dozen too far...

>>31705975
You don't understand how things went.

France declared war on Germany BECAUSE GERMANY ATTACKED POLAND.
Today the poles are very angry about the french telling we abandonned them. This isn't true.

France would have never attacked Germany by itself however. It could have been (and should have been) done in 1938 when the Ruhr was militarily an easy target for the anglo french forces. Attack and occupy the Ruhr = no more fancy guns for Adolf, war won by default. And yes, we had the manpower and military strength to do so.

My country built the Maginot line specifically because the doctrine was purely defensive. This is also the reason why the bomber force in France was so under-developped with just the few available Lioré Et Olivier 45 being a fairly decent twin engine bomber in 1940. However France bought LOTS of fighters, including a command for THOUSANDS of curtiss hawk75 which of course were paid but never delivered...

So yeah, looking at the military side of things here is not the correct thing to do. Germany attacked in the west because it felt French and british forces were a threat after these countries declared war on Germany for attacking Poland. Not the other way around.

In the end Poland got utterly buttfucked, and if it hadn't been by the germans, it would have been by the soviets... With the help of Germans who, until 1939, were having some of their weapons built in USSR under the non-aggression pact between nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Which is fun when you remember the spanish civil war directly involved both camps against eachother.

Anyway, your scenario makes no sense. If anything, the situation would have ended with 3 blocks equally angry at eachother for either collaborating with one of the parties, or not being hard enough on the other one. Democraties versus fascist states versus commie states.

No strategy here. Just interrests.

>>31706382
Calm down.

People started calling them evil when they started murdering masses of people. It's not coincidence or propaganda, it's called "logic".

>>31706382
>No, the shit about Nazis being evil and Nazi world domination started after the war had already started, it's standard propaganda

>Enemy starts war
>Starts murdering civilians during the war
>People start to call them evil for doing things like this

People weren't saying they were evil before because they didn't know what they were about to commit, you prat.

>>31706387
>France declared war on Germany BECAUSE GERMANY ATTACKED POLAND.
yes, but why didn't they declare war when Germany annexed Czechoslovakia? Why didn't the allies declare war on Stalin as well, he attacked Poland as well, why did they only consider a war with Soviets when Swedish iron ore was threatened? Wake up, Allies were no fucking saints either, they had their own interests driving their actions when they declared war on Germany, they didn't do it 'because they were the good guys' unlike the Allied propaganda (less than suprisingly-) would suggest.

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>>31706382
>No, the shit about Nazis being evil and Nazi world domination started after the war had already started

>Started after Nazis began murdering droves of civilians

>Started after the Nazis began to invade everything they touched

Gee, what weird timing.

>>31706396
>People weren't saying they were evil before because they didn't know what they were about to commit, you prat.
I said as much myself, the point here is people are too obsessed with the idea that teh war in the West was inevitable & it's the Eastern front that was optional, that's all I am trying to say here.

>>31706407
I think you're still failing to understand

If you call an organisation evil
And they do evil things
Then it's not propaganda

You're completely hung up that this is allied lies because you're such a massive wehraboo

>>31706407
>that's all I am trying to say here.

Well, no it isn't because you have your rambling bullshit about the Nazis being picked on and called names.

>>31706400
again I never denied they were evil, I was only saying that people are too entrenched in the position that the war in the West couldn't be avoided "because Nazis were evil", to paraphrase since everyone and their mother is misunderstanding what I was trying to say:

People are using 20/20 hindsight to argue that the war in the West was inevitable while constantly treating the Eastern front as something that could have been avoided & I think this is retarded.

Now can we *PLEASE* get to the original topic, which is "What if France and UK never declared war on Nazi-Germany & Germany was free to fight Soviets one on one/maybe along with fascist friends"

>>31706413
>If you call an organisation evil
>And they do evil things
>Then it's not propaganda
it is when you are calling them evil without knowing that you are actually right, as was the case until close to the end of the war when Soviets started liberating concentration camps

>>31706387
>So yeah, looking at the military side of things here is not the correct thing to do. Germany attacked in the west because it felt French and british forces were a threat after these countries declared war on Germany for attacking Poland. Not the other way around.
exactly, without the declaration of war by those two countries Hitler would have left France and Britain alone and focused on Soviets who everyone except France and Czechoslovakia (who had more or less friendly relationships with Soviets) agreed were a threat/the very least something to keep an eye on.

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>>31706430
>128 British, Canadians and Americans killed by Nazis on 1st September 1939
>20,000 teachers, lawyers, politicians, cartoonists, actors, students, retired officers, policemen, firefighters, postal workers and youth leaders executed by October 1939.
>Some German pacification events were so well known they were in foreign media as early as 1941

>Nu-uh nobody thought the Germans did bad things till 1945!

>>31706430
Who are you so caught up on calling the Nazis bad things before the Nazis started doing bad things

>>31706471
>Who are you so caught up on calling the Nazis bad things before the Nazis started doing bad things
and same in English?

>>31706457
I never said that, I said said that using the argument "nazis were evil" to support one's belief that Britain and France *had to* declare war on Germany (and as such the war in the West couldn't be avoided) is retarded, Nazis being evil had nothing to do with the declaration of war, people should stop using hindsight knowledge as arguments for decisions made before that information was available.

>>31705975
>I think both the image of Nazis as evil & the claim that they were trying to conquer the world were born during the war along with a lot of other propaganda
Dude, Hitler wrote a book about his plans, it called Mein Kampf.
>what if Hitler had never invaded Denmark, Norway, Benelux and France?
Germany would bankrupt.

>>31706515
>I never said that

So far you've changed what you "really" said every post you've made.

>>31706515
>people should stop using hindsight knowledge as arguments for decisions made before that information was available

Nobody except you is saying this.

>>31706515
>I said said that using the argument "nazis were evil" to support one's belief that Britain and France *had to* declare war on Germany

You're making up an argument that nobody is saying, and saying it's dumb.

Followed with;

>I think propaganda about Germans being evil in WWII was made during WWII

>>31706422
>Nazi-Germany & Germany was free to fight Soviets one on one/maybe along with fascist friends
You need provide timeline. Soviet army and tech in 1939, Soviet army and tech in 1941 and Soviet army and tech in theoretical 1942 are tree different armies. Remember - Soviets were in the middle of reorganization and modernization of their army in 1941. You attack earlier - tens of thousands tanks are not outdated yet. You attack later - brand new T-34s wreck your anus.

>>31706248
>Soviets murder 100 times more than the nazis.
>Leave a path of destruction and rape in their path on the way to berlin.
>Tojo did worse things to POW than you could even imagine.
>Hitler never wanted to actually fight the british, let alone the americans.
>Your sources are coming from the same people who censor the wikileaks and hillary's E-mails online and on the tv.
>N-Nazis are the bad guys.

Hitler did nothing wrong.

>>31706815
>these other guys were worse than Nazis
>so the Nazis weren't bad!

>>31706826
>Missing the point this hard.
It's more of the fact that the Nazi's and Germany are blown up to be theses super ebil villians that the oh so few allies bravely conquered.
>TL;DR Stop acting like nothing else happened in WW2.

>>31706524
my wording has changed, meaning behind my words hasn't

>>31705975
>>31706382

We think Nazis are evil because they exist among us today and the majority of the policies they recommend are pointless antisemitism which would require us to do fucktarded things like abandon an ally we invested billions in that hardly puts them above the ragheads (who are another example of an anachronistic culture who really should have stopped being a thing after the Ottoman Empire fell) and all our other enemies. They are of an obsolete line of conservatism that did not jive with how western politics worked back then, and certainly doesn't work with how they work now.

>>31706544
>You're making up an argument that nobody is saying, and saying it's dumb.
tell me then *what* it is people believe forced France and UK to declare war on Germany (don't say "Poland", France had an obligation to defend Czechoslovakia as well and look how that turned out)

>>31706544
>>I think propaganda about Germans being evil in WWII was made during WWII
how many times do I have to say this (and I *have* said this already, albeit with different wording): my point here is that using war-time propaganda/post-war information to claim that the invasion in West was inevitable (as I have so far assumed people think as the only front of WWII people ever try to exclude is the Eastern front (as in, 4 "what if" scenarios from WWII out of 5 are about Hitler leaving Soviets alone & the rest are "what if wunderwaffle X had been finished a year earlier")) is retarded

>>31706646
let's say spring 1940 as the troops Germany used to invade the rest of Europe would have been available to invade Soviet Union instead.

>>31706248
>>31706815
>>31706826
not the topic of this bread, go picka fight to /pol/ or something...

>>31706826
>These other guys are worse then the Nazis
>Lets ally with them during the war
>Lets make the Nazis out to be the ultimate bad guys of all time ever
>Stalin wasn't SO bad guys, trust us!
>Missing the point this fucking hard

>>31706862
>pointless antisemitism
>antisemitism
>pointless
>why are conservatives losing the culture war?

>>31706862
>pointless antisemitism

spot the kike

I just had a similar argument with someone this weekend. He made some comment about how "We would all be germans if we hadn't won the war" or some stupid shit. I had to give him a quick history lesson. Churchill wanted the war in the west more than Hitler but people don't bother to read facts and just spoonfeed the British propaganda. I mean I thought the same shit when I didn't know better but critical thinking has become more and more rare with society at large.

It's pretty clear once things kicked off in the west Hitler wanted to secure the western border in order to invade the east. He was always going to invade the east but he held out for peace with the west until it was untenable. Churchill on the hand as always going to go to war with Germany.

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>>31706919

>>31706862
Perhaps those professional victim Semites shouldn't have manipulated the world banks and attempted to make a Communist state in Germany.

>>31706306
If the nazis hadn´t been megalomaniac mass murdering fuckheads that invaded their neighbors. Churchill wouldn't have become prime minister and Chamberlain wouldn't be seen as a naive bad joke.

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>>31706962
>it's all the Jews fault
Seriously though why do people hate jews so much and don't give those stupid answers like they control the world or they own all the money.

>>31706919
You must remember that the "dagger in the back" legend did get help from A GODDAMN CIVIL WAR that was very much instigated by jewish communists.

>>31707046
that was very much instigated by German sailors*

>>31707361
Yes thats where it started, but the large revolution was led by jewish communists. No, im not an anti semite its just a fact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319

>>31706341
By tooling up with the sole purpose on putting the country into a war time economy, which would of failled horribly if they had not gone to war.

>>31706382
>people should take their heads out of their asses and recognize the war-time propaganda for what it is:

Why dont you go first

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Loses 3 years later.

Germans didn't even inflict 2:1 kill ratio on the Soviets outside of warcrimes.

>>31706453
And to get to the Soviets they had to go though Poland.......

>>31707812
>>31707046
This is another apologist BS. The "revolution" was a limited revolt by several dozen people that killed virtually nobody. Most of the deaths were from executions carried out by Friedkorps.

Britain faced a much larger revolt in its home turf and didn't collapse. The "dagger int he back" myth is used to scapegoat comprehensive German military defeat.

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>>31706955
>If you don't adhere to the wehrboo low IQ apologetics, you must be Jewish!

>>31706815
>>Soviets murder 100 times more than the nazis.

Soviet regime 1929-1945 killed about 25 million people

Germany 1929-1945 killed over 30 million people if you include shit outside of the Jewish-targeted Holocaust.

>>31707988
war crimes rofl

>>31708017
Specifically:
Stalin killed:
>2-3 million in collectivization
>6-7 million in artificial famines, includes 3-4 million holodomor
>1-2 million in the Great Purge
>4-7 million in population transfers
>1-2 million executed during WW2
>5.3 million Axis & Poles killed during WW2
>2-3 million in post-WW2 forced labor and population transfers
>1 million in post-ww2 purges
>17-24 million total

Hitler killed
>11 million civilians in death camps, includes 6 million Jews
>~7 million Soviet soldiers
>~18 million Soviet civilians
>~3 million non-Jewish Poles
>~120,000 non-Jewish German civilians
>~500,000-1 million Czechs, Belgian, Dutch, French, Romanian, & Hungarian non-Holocaust civilians
>~300-600,000 Greeks
>~600,000-1.5 million Yugoslavians and Albanians (includes massacres by non-German collaborators)
>~50,000 Italian civilians & partisans
>~20,000 Norwegian & Danish civilians
>~340,000 Allied forces in the West
>~20,000 North African civilians
>Total 40.52 million-42.12 million

Nazi Germany actually killed far more people than the Soviets if you include all causes and theatres. The Soviets only killed more if you include Stalinist Collectivization/population transfers/purges vs. German death camps

Now in b4 some low-IQ /pol/beard calls me JIDF

>>31708060
>killing millions of civilians isn't a warcrime

It's funny because /pol/ cries about "muh dresden" and "muh rapes".

>>31708228
and who exactly it is you are replying to?

>>31706902
>let's say spring 1940 as the troops Germany used to invade the rest of Europe would have been available to invade Soviet Union instead.
Their get their asses kicked. Without battle experience from Blitz (and additional logistic from them too) they will face new (in that time) Soviet tanks and planes without sufficient numerical advantage.

>>31708256
>They get

>>31708256
do note Soviets have just started reorganizing the Red Army after Winter war showed just how much their military sucks in a real war, also stuff like T-34 is still undergoing trials (if even that) while MiGs, Yaks and Shtormotiks are still on the drawing boards etc.

>>31708312
Germany was in no position for a war in the east in 1940 either. They weren't in a position in 1941 for that matter.

Hitler's plan for the Eastern Front (a war of extermination against the Soviet nation) was unworkable and doomed Germany to defeat regardless of how much tinkering you do with it. The USSR was too vast and their goal too massive for it to work. Doing x instead of y only would have prolonged defeat by a few years at most

There was however 1 scenario where the Germans could have had a victory. That is:
A.) Invade the Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus. Throw the Soviets out.
B.) DO NOT massacre the local population, use their hatred against the Soviets. The Germans went from being greeted as liberators in Ukraine in 1941 to having most of the population rebellion against them in 1944 because of their genocidal and oppressive policies.
C.) Create puppet states in these territories

Basically, do what the Germans did in Eastern Europe in WW1. Destroying the whole of the USSR was not a viable plan but reducing it to Russia & Central Asia could have worked. The Soviets would have likely sued for peace after losing these territories if the Germans were clear in their intent to not and try the whole of the USSR.

Of course, this plan goes against the very foundations of Nazism and is far too rational for Hitler's juvenile mindset.

>ctrl+f
>"gun"
>1 result

Be careful wehraboos, you'll end up on /his/ at this rate

>>31708312
as such the best Soviets would have to thro at Germans are few KV-1s with the rest of the tank fleet being the same T-26s, T-28s and BTs that got taken out by crazy farmers armed with crowbars and bottles of gasoline, tar and ethanol. Even the Soviet Airforce is still a combination of I-15s, I-16s, SB-2s and TB-3s which even a Fokker D. XXIs and Gloster Gladiators could take down despite being inferior on paper & having inferior numbers.

>>31708312
Their shit is not outdated yet. KV-2, T-35 T-28 - all this shit is pretty relevant and you don't know how to deal with it (actually, you have no battle experience against large amounts of tanks at all).

>>31708360
1) We were disturbed by Hitler. Hitler was fool. The German soldier was awesome. The German commander was as Great Friedrich, but without vicious bents.

2) Russians filled up us with meat. Russians had a lot of meat. The Russian soldier - the child of the nature, he eats anything that won't be able to escape from it, sleeps standing as the horse, and is able to filter. The author repeatedly witnessed how the whole tank armies of Russians filtered through a front line, and nothing gave out their presence. Yesterday it was usual artillery preparation, bombardment, assault of Russians - and suddenly Russian tank army in your rear!!!

3) SS sometimes went a little too far. I mean, if everything was limited to usual robberies, executions, violence and destructions which were made sometimes by the German soldier from surplus of valiant force, much more people would accept a new order with pleasure.

4) Russians had a T-34 tank. It was dishonest. We had no such tank.

5) Russians had many anti-tank guns. Each soldier had an anti-tank gun - he hid with it in poles, in hollows of trees, in a grass, under roots of trees.

6) Russians had many Mongols and the Turkmen. The Mongols and Turkmens supported with commissars it is a horrifying thing.

7) Russians had commissars. Commissar is a horrifying thing. By definition. Most of commissars were Jews. Even kikes. We killed our Jews, it was not thriftily. Himmler was fool.

8) Russians used an unfair method - pretended that they are given up, and then - BAM! shot German soldier at a back. Once the Russian tank corp, pretended that he gives up, shot in a back the whole heavy tank battalion.

9) Russians were killing German soldiers. It in general was terribly unworthy, after all on honest, these are the German soldiers were supposed to kill Russian! The Russian are all bad.

10) Allies betrayed us. I mean Americans and British.

>>31708360
agreed on most points, I'd say Germany would have had better chance in 1940 than in 1941 under the circumstances as Soviet Union would have been far more prepared in 1941 & Germans would have only had the little experience they gained in Poland (provided Mussolini hadn't pulled Germany into Balkans in the meantime, but even that might have actually helped Germany by providing their troops with experience against relatively small opponent)

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Hitler never wanted war with the West. He let Britain escape Dunkirk but Britain and Churchill were too dumb to see that.

Churchill was a violent warmongering asshole that destroyed any chance of peace because his pet russians were getting hurt. He stuck his nose where it didn't belong and then got upset when he failed to understand that Germany never wanted to fight its fellow Anglo.

Battle of Britain would have never happened if Churchill would have swallowed his pride and admitted he was wrong about Germany.

>>31708379
/k/ is the defacto /militaryhistory/ board.
Guns are not the only weapons
Kys ect ect

>>31708397
KV-2 was a cumbersome bunker buster that could only fire when the turret was facing directly to the front, or it could fire even when the turret was not facing front, but that would damage the turret & the tank could be safely flanked & destroyed by shooting it from the rear, only 61 T-35s were ever made & they were mechanically unreliable, and T-28 could be destroyed by just about anything larger than .50"

>>31708448
ironically enough you are almost entirely correct, the only inaccuracies are that Churchill actually hated Soviets just as much as he hated Hitler & the fact Dunkirk was not some conspiracy by Hitler to spare the British.

>>31708488
>KV-2 was a cumbersome bunker buster that could only fire when the turret was facing directly to the front, or it could fire even when the turret was not facing front, but that would damage the turret & the tank could be safely flanked & destroyed by shooting it from the rear
Tell that to bustards from North army group who were literally crushed in their Pz IIIs.

>>31708571
there's also the fact that KV-2 was produced in quite small numbers & the production only started as a stop-gap measure after the Winter war had started & Soviets realized they needed a bunker buster, meaning there would have been very few KV-2s in spring 1940

>>31708448
I love that wehraboos still think this pasta is true

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I see the anti-nazi faggots are out in full force today, ruining yet another thread with their ideology bullshit

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>>31709046
cry some more cuck

>>31708448
>>31708529
It's mostly wrong. While it's true that Hitler didn't necessarily want war with Britain (but he did with France), he didn't want Britain as a brothers-in-arms partner. Rather, Hitlers best case scenario was the British Empire collapsing and England comes under control of Fascists in the aftermath that can be used as a weak puppet state ala Vichy France.

>>31706934
>>31709046
OUT OUT OUT.
>>>/fuckofftopol/

>>31709070
I have no concrete evidence to challenge your view & it sounds plausible enough that I'll just have to take your word for it.

>>31707964
They wouldn't have maintained the same economic momentum shifting into a peace time situation, but war being the fulcrum of success for the economy isn't true.

>>31705975
To go after Russia they had to take Poland... once they had Poland the other countries go into it.... learn geography and history

>>31706382

> Who exactly was calling Nazis evil before the war, tell me.

The people who read his book, for starters. The one where he said every thing he was going to do, which he then he followed through on.

Aunschluss by any means. Removal of the Jews. Lebenraum. Removal of the Slavs.

>>31706341

> Germany became an economic powerhouse who completely went against western economic theory

Nice meme.

No Germany was not an economic powerhouse in 1939, they were in the middle of an extremely bloated self-created bubble that would have collapsed within 2 years if they could not prop up their economy with seized foreign currency.

The fact is that by 1939, the Nazi government was more than 40 billion Reichsmarks in debt and still running a massive budget deficit. There was no way out besides war.

They could print more money, which would cause hyperinflation and cause the economy and government to collapse.

They could default, which would have the same result, and ruin the savings of every single German, since German banks bought the trash bonds the government issued.

They could implement austerity, and drastically cut down on spending. This would ruin the military build up, cause mass unemployment, and possibly revolution from the masses of unemployed Germans.

Even that would not be enough, because it was estimated that debt payments alone would amount to half the government budget in 1940. You could disband the Wehrmacht and still be running a deficit because of the enormous debt Germany had.

So their only option was to go to war, seize their neighbor's assets, and use them to pay back the debt they own to the German People.

>>31713501
this is a good post

>>31706864
>tell me then *what* it is people believe forced France and UK to declare war on Germany

That Germany attacked them, you moron

>>31706946
>Churchill wanted the war in the west more than Hitler

How can people say this when you can look at what actually happened and instantly be proven wrong. Fucking tards.

>>31708448
Completely incorrect.

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>>31712809
>Aunschluss by any means. Removal of the Jews. Lebenraum. Removal of the Slavs.
>Evil
Found the j00

>>31713640

Or just someone who's read some history here and there, including excerpts from the man's book itself, you boor.

Maybe have your oy-veydar serviced.