And the Indians are back in search of a new fighter to repla

The Gripen E/F would be best for India, unless Lockheed can deliver a serious cost reduction via a bulk order.

>>31622602
F16s are already way cheaper than a Gripen.

>>31622602
Possible, though the F-16 may have the advantage in that the Indians may want to take the lowest-risk option possible right now after all the shit that's happened. The Gripen E doesn't have any history behind it. I don't really expect it to have a problematic development, but the Indians may be wary.

This would require them to learn from their mistakes though, which may be asking a little much.

>>31622562
They will never buy the PAK-FA.

Gripen is their best choice imo, but the F-16 is cheaper sooooooo

>>31622636
Not really; it depends on the variant; the UAE paid something like $200m (PAUC or APUC) per Block 60 F-16, whereas Brazil paid less than that for their customised and upgraded JAS-39E/Fs.

Both orders were pretty small and I'd expect Lockheed to be more capable of handling a larger order / giving a better relative discount, but that's just speculation.

I wonder how much the F404 being used and licensed for the tejas will come to play in this.

>>31622562
>Rafale
>Mig-29
>Su-30
>Tejas
>PAK-FA
>now possibly Gripen or F-16 also

just fuck my logistics up famiglia

>>31622602
You know that E/F Gripens cost $100 million apiece, right?

That said, the Swedes have been much more willing to do technology transfers, local production, and generally take on more risk than Boeing or Lockheed have.

>>31622664
On the contrary it seems like they will.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-and-russia-agree-on-details-of-new-joint-production-of-fifth-generation-fighter-aircraft/articleshow/54203573.cms

>>31623197
That's a weird story. What 5th generation aircraft are they talking about?

>>31622818
The MiG-29K alone is enough of a pain in the ass because of its low availability. If I remember correctly the Su-30MKI also had a lot of problems early on.

>>31622562
Who the fuck is in charge of procurement in India? Jesus christ it's a clusterfuck.

>>31622818
Why you think they drop down a plane every month?

They are fucking up everything and as a French, I'm very afraid on the Rafale when they get a hand on it

>>31622818
Its like the saudis, having a different weapon for each branch, even each branch within a branch...

But worse

>>31623633
Apparently when the Russians finally showed the Indians what they were going to put in the PAKFA they seemed satisfied with the technology.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17285/Indo_Russian_Fifth_Generation_Fighter_R___D_Negotiations_Resolved__IAF_Chief#.V_tGtMldx8M

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Looks like the Jaguars are still in service for quite some time yet too.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-10-05/indian-air-force-confirms-jaguar-re-engine-plan

they are not in search, they are DESPERATE.

Im a total ww2 buff.

they are screwed atm.

If I was the leader of India, I would go with SAAB ASAP.

The Russians wont produce the stealth 50's the F-35 is shit and China is hostile.
You can modernize a Mig-21 all You want...

>>31622562
India is likely to take the brass ring Lockheed is offering them.

Lockheed will move the F-16 production line to India, and in one fell swoop jump india to being able to make a world class jet. All they have to do is abandon the Tejas. Suddenly they get to join the western powers club, and get all that sweet F-16 work/ contract work.

>>31622818

>How do you want your Air Force to look?

>Have you played Ace Combat?

>Say no more, famiglia

Actually, The American built block C F-16's are really nice but Inside information all points that Indian politicians are all talking about American Sanctions.

Its highly unlikelly that America will sell anything as long as the Sanction policy is in place.

You gotta fix the airplane right?

and Yes, Im dead serious, American Sanctions are the talk of the town.

>>31623938

For what purpose?

China is hostile and India cannot challenge.

The Indians fear the Chinese will move into local resources and take over little by little.

India is in a really bad place for the next 50 years or so.

Maybe cost effective Drones would be perfect.

Fight Russia tooth and nail right?

>>31622664
Newly produced F-16 will most likely not be cheaper.

Refurished old ones however...

>>31623776
They do perfectly fine with the Mirage 2000. And i'd be surprised surprised they'll stop at 36 Rafales anyway. If they go for a cheaper plane for their "Make in India" stuff it is very likely they wil order at least 18 more Rafale off the shelf for their strategic strike capability. 36 simply does not make it and is logistically nightmarish.

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>>31623820
I just love that little plane SO much. No idea why. It's not even that good, or that aesthetic. Just a silly crush on a solid little plane that could.

>>31624437
But they are good and aesthetic.

The British and the French employed them as fantastic strike aircraft on the cheap.

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>>31622671
I think honestly its the opposite. SAAB have apparently lowered their production costs dramatically (which was a reason for Boeing choosing SAAB as their partner) and seems to be a lot more willing in terms of local production than their competitors which most likely is a key point for India since i imagine that they are trying to create their own aircraft industry. In terms of developing new to a low cost, SAAB seems to be the best in the business.

>>31622562
I am also looking forward to Austria getting rid of their overpriced second-hand Typhoons, and getting new Gripens, as the SAAB is trying to push them through the Swiss selection procedure, this time for sure.

>instead of getting 18 Tranche 2 jets at a price of €109 million each, Austria was paying an increased unit price of €114 million for 15 partially used, Tranche 1 jets
Still makes me laugh maniacally.

>>31624459
What i meant is that it is not one of those superlative jets /k/ usually raves about.

Meh, it'll just come down to another bribe-off.

>>31624555
That basically means that LM has already won.

>>31622562
Didn't SAAB already secure this deal?

>>31624601
No.

The only Gripen E deal that is done is the Brazilian one.

>>31624610
Oh that's right, got em mixed up.

>>31624003
Our government gets butthurt when other people remove kebab, which is the sole purpose of the Indian military.

>>31623172

the thing is that the swedes literally can't produce enough gripens themselves to fill the order - there's an element of "india will HAVE to natively produce the planes in bulk" which won't be as guaranteed with an F-16 purchase.

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I though the Indians were just going with Rafale, why would they need the Gripen?

Next thing you know India is going to be looking at F-15Es or Eurofighters.

>>31624919
They only got 36 Rafaels and at a terrible price to.

>>31624958
>at a terrible price
dear god when will those stupid memes end? Considering the additonal conditions on the indian side, developpment of local industries, training of ground and air crews, spare parts, maintenance, buttloads of ammos and so on, the contract is perfectly fine.

Besides the Rafale has excellent sortie rate, long airframe and engine life, and low-ish maintenance requirements so a $ of Rafale buys you quite a significant amount of plane in the air.

>>31625007
All of those things was included in the Brazilian Gripen deal to plus a factory to build the aircraft.

And they got them at half the price.
As for sorti rate, both the Rafale and Gripen are top notch. The single engine Gripen should have a smaller operating coat, so naturally a Rafale deal would cost more (and arguably give more).

But really, twice the cost?

>>31622562
The native americans are getting their own fighter jets!?

Oh fuck those Indians really are wanting their land back...

>>31624919
First, they want the expertise and technology to developp local future ALCA and AMCA projects, have a lot of ambitions and are ready to pay for it. Second, while the Tejas 2 isn't entirely shitty and they can be recognized for developing local technologies, in an actual war i wouldn't trust my life on it against Pakistani of Chinese fighters. So they need an actual combat capable plane for the low-tier of their fleet. Third, the Rafale is simply too complicated for them to assemble locally and need something intermediary to hone skills (which kinda disqualifies the Gripen as well imho). It was calculated a locally assembled Rafale would cost 2.5 times the off the shelf price due to delays and corrections needed due to unskilled local workforce. Dassault is likely to sell one or two batches of off the shelf additional Rafales. 36 frames hardly meets their needs of a fighter with solid A2G deep strike capability, and doesn't make much sense on a logistical point either. India will move on to a plane that they can actually locally assemble while meeting their need for Rafale by buying small batches under the excuse "no matter what we planned, we won't make a local assembly line just for that small additional batch we need".

I wish all the best to whoever gets to deal with that new-MMRCA contract.

>>31625032
I'd put the F-35 a bit outside that logic due to sheer envisionned scale economy, but cost/capability is hardly a linear thing, and i'm not suprised people who need, let's say either the suprior A2G capability of the Rafale, or the superior A2A capability of the Typhoon, more so when technological transfer could be involved, to be ready to pay a not insignificant premium for it over the Gripen. I would love to see a new evaluation like the Swiss did between the latest versions of the three Eurocanards.

>>31624919
Did you try reading the OP?

>>31622562
>Still needing to replace the bulk of MiG-21s, Saab and LM vulture over India ready to throw production lines and ToT for the contract
And the indians will take more Rafale because buying only 36 makes no sense at all and they're weting their poo-panties over it after they finally decided to pay the money and stfu. And also because Dassault offered from day one these ToT and prod lines. And strategic partnership.

Also Dassault now finally works with the Reliance group in India, which will be the main contractor for the next made in India Rafales. HAL is out, that is the best thing to happen ever.

Lastly, the india Navy wants catobar carriers. The Indian air force already owns land based Rafale. What will happen ? Deep into your mind you already know.

Keep arguing about how 0% ITAR free planes would be the best thing for India. The poo in loo may have designated shitting streets, they still know the meaning of the word "independance". If tomorrow ONE subcontractor of the Gripen says "fuck off", the plane is unsellable. Period. If tomorrow uncle sam says "nah we don't want to upset China cause we're bitches and will dump you just like we dumped Taiwan" the poo in loos will get jackshit. Remember the embargo on missiles for Egypt, Pakistan, and so many other countries ? Indians remember it very well.

2030 : 240 Rafale C/B and M in Indian air force and Indian Navy. Mark my words.

>>31625231
>2030 : 240 Rafale C/B and M in Indian air force and Indian Navy.

I'm painfully erect

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>>31624502
because the bulk of /k/ is American and unaware of the majority of non-Russian historical aircraft.

Jaguar was an excellent aircraft but there was no reason to keep it around when Tornado did almost everything better and budgets needed to be reduced.

India should modernize the Mig-21 platform and stop giving their money to jews.

>>31625988
They have soon run out of FHs.

They simply cant be flown anymore safely.
And they are also hopelessly outdated.

>>31624475

>I am also looking forward to Austria getting rid of their overpriced second-hand Typhoons

Not happening.

1 - They only just got them, thats not going through the gov at all to replace now.

2 - The Austrian defence budget got a huge increase lately, the financial problems are a lot less than they were

3 - They've just ordered the M-346, which is one of the two trainers basically designed to work with the Typhoon, indicating their future support.

Typical Indian shit.

Brag about your own domestic product (Arjun, Tejas) then immediately buy more of the so called "inferior" products. They're going to complain and demand that they be able to produce everything in-house, get mucked up in the trade discussion and end up holding yet another competition.

>>31622562
FC-1 Xiaolong
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>>31622818
They lost 30+ planes to crashes this year.

A 26% readiness rate for Mig-29K's as well.

>>31623879
>implying US congress will allow that

>>31626056
Doesn't change the fact that they actually bought less planes, in worse state, for higher price. So Austria is again looking into the alternatives, and SAAB won't let this opportunity go waste.

Austria will gladly sell expensive second-hand Typhoons, to get brand new Gripens in their place, if the offer will be good enough. And if SAAB want to pass through the second Swiss referendum, it better be.

>>31627366

Then please link me to the source of the program from the Austrian ministry of defense that says they're looking to replace them.

>>31625743
>but there was no reason to keep it around when Tornado did almost everything better and budgets needed to be reduced.

Too bad the Swing-Wing didn't end up being nearly as cheap or cost effective as they thought. They should have kept their Jaguars.

>>31627366
I said they are looking into the alternatives, not that they already announced new selection for the next year, (that's what Switzerland is doing, and SAAB will definitely try to persuade the Austria in favor of Gripen NG, whenever will the situation allows it).

Keep on mind that Austria have other problems at the moment, and in few years, they might have different government altogether.

As you said, they already increased their defense budget, but it's still not in their interest, to operate the Eurofighters for the rest of their lifespan. Because it will be still blatant waste of the money in eyes of the taxpayers.

But if SAAB will be successful, we can look into new selection in five years approximately, and SAAB won't offer the Gripen E/F sooner than 2022 anyway, being preoccupied with the Swedish and Brazilian contract.

>>31627634
The Tornado is more cost-effective as it can do far more with less sorties. With SDB integration it'll be even more capable for even less money.

It can also perform SEAD work which the Jaguar really can't, and is much more survivable.

>>31627964

So basically you don't have any source at all.

Good to know.

>>31623887
Do I have to buy it myself

>>31628364
Nothing official on part of the Austrian government, because they have butter on their heads, But as for the SAAB and anybody they can use to pull some strings for them, you will hear just as much.