What was the worst standard rifle cartridge of WWII and

>>31503388
Soviet .54R by far.

.303 was and still is good quality, you can cap a rhino or elephant with the paper HP .303

>>31503388
.303 is great. Excellent velocity, perfect 174 grain bullet.

Id say any of the italian calibers are shit.

>>31503388
OP, why are you hating .303 British?

>>31503470
Yeah 7.62x54r is such a shitty round it's still used today. What a piece of shit right?

>>31503553
yeah modern match .54R is ok surplus .303 is still being used here in britain.

>>31503388
Wasn't the Bren .303? Less charge than the 8mm mauser, 54 romeo, or aught six, but in full auto that seems to be a good thing.

>>31503535
>6.5 Carcano
>Shit
The ammunition isn't to blame, its the shit manufacturing of the Italians and their lack of standardizing loads.

>>31503616
You can take my standardized load.

>>31503470
You're just as bad as OP for thinking that.

The only real problem it has is that it has a rimmed cartridge or if you're buying surplus ammo from some poor ass country.

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>>31503627

>>31503648
> muh nugget
Tonnes of the shit in the UK. Good luck letting anyone export it though. there would be riots in the villages, it would be like water being shut off.

>>31503616
I don't understand. Beretta is a good company; was every other manufacturer in Italy just shit?

7.7 jap is so bad privi doesn't load it.

>>31503388
6.5x50mmSR Arisaka and 6.5x52mm Carcano are tied for the worst.

>>31503388
.30 Carbine.

It didn't do anything well.

>>31503702
Melanin enriched individual, please:

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12653

You're obviously thinking of 7.7x58 SR

My vote is for 30-06.

>>31503698
Berretta doesn't make ammunition. Prety sure Terni and Gardone didn't either.

The problem is Italy was just industrialized and didn't have the logistics down yet. They were still making 7.5 ammo and guns even after they didn't adopt it.

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>>31503727

>Couldn't even penetrate Nork winter uniforms from medium range

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6.5mm Arisaka is hands down the worst. Bad enough that the Japanese couldn't even call it 'good enough for now' and tried to replace it in the middle of the war.

They Japanese found it to be lacking even against other Asiatic peoples, who are generally smaller in size and stature than soldiers fighting in the west. For the faults that can be had with 7.62x54r (probably the second worst) no one ever complained that it lacked killing power.

Here is a comparison of 6.5mm Arisaka alongside a .303 British on the left and 7.62x73mm on the right. It's performance is actually close modern rifle rounds like 5.56 NATO and 5.45.. Except fired from a bolt action rifle at enemy infantry who's rifles fire faster, hold more rounds and fire rounds that can be reliably used to hunt large and dangerous game.

>>31503764
Changing my vote to 7.35 Carcano

>>31503764
>Linking out of stock unprimmed brass somehow refutes privi not making loads for it.

1/10 you tried

>>31503702
>>31503774
Japs handdown

>>31503774
silly nips

>>31503767
>trusting korean vets to not say they weren't a shit shot

>>31503388
>it's british so it's shit

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>>31503627

>>31503767
M1 Carbine was an early attempt at PDW, it was better than a .45cal pistol round. And that's all I've got to say about that.

>>31503785
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/hornady-custom-77x58-jap-150-grain-sp-20-rounds?a=1003624

>>31503388
They were all fine except a couple meme designs. Theres no problem with rimmed cartridges in bolt action rifles with well designed magazines and its not like they were squeezing all the ballistic potential out of massed produced ball ammo.

That said, id give the edge to 6.5 cartridges. Smaller recoil and muzzle flash and weighed less but did the job just as effectively.

>>31503774
>>31503840
>That said, id give the edge to 6.5 cartridges. Smaller recoil and muzzle flash and weighed less but did the job just as effectively.

This is patently untrue though.

>>31503388
>not 7.7 Arisaka
"hey we're a nation of skinny short people, let's adopt the second most powerful service round ever and chamber it in 6' long rifles. What could *possibly* go wrong?"

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>>31503627

>>31503805
All that shit on his chest
>30 years of kissing ass.

>>31503902
politics, bruh.

putting down political dissidents of your country, that is.

>>31503774
>Except fired from a bolt action rifle at enemy infantry who's rifles fire faster, hold more rounds and fire rounds that can be reliably used to hunt large and dangerous game.
Arisakas were mauser based rifles who had exactly the same capacity and speed as most bolt actions of the day and anyone who says 5.56 cant reliably kill a man is a confirmed retard. Switching from 6.5 was probably one of the worst logistical moves the japs ever made.

>>31503872
Its 100% true. If you dont think 6.5swede/arisaka/carcano is effective then youre an idiot. They all have much more energy than intermediate calibers

>>31503879
>the second most powerful service round ever

What's the most powerful?

>>31503727
except be responsible for medals of honor

>>31503953
.30-06 for a general-issue service round.

For that matter, pretty much all of the WW2 rifle rounds were hilariously overpowered for the roles they were in. The only ones really close to "right" were the 6.5 Jap and 6.5 Carcano, and those suffered from other issues (6.5jap was semi-rimmed, 6.5 Carcano was Italian)

>>31503920
>desk jockey killing dissidents in iceland

>>31503922
>most bolt actions of the day
In WW2 about half the combatants had 10-round bolt actions, the Arisaka held 5 (like most other Mauser rifles).

>>31503950
The problem with the 6.5 Arisaka wasn't the total KE of the round, it was the fact that it was a nonexanding weight-forward flat-based bullet so it didn't expand, tumble, or fragment at all.

>>31503922
No i think that award goes to attacking America without the fuel and steel to keep up.

>>31504011
nice bait

>>31504022
>10-round bolt actions

Only the British had this.

>>31504022
>so it didn't expand, tumble, or fragment at all

wouldn't this apply to most standard issue rifle cartridges of the day?

I'm not too familiar with ballistics, I admit, but it seems like most of them would zip right through someone

>>31504022
>>31504022
>In WW2 about half the combatants had 10-round bolt actions,
I wasnt aware brits made up 50% of the men in ww2

>it was the fact that it was a nonexanding weight-forward flat-based bullet so it didn't expand, tumble, or fragment at all.
So it performed the same as every other nations standard ball ammo

>>31504047
One of the worst, not THE worst.

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>>31503627

>>31504087
And who did the Japs primarily fight? Brits with Enfields and Americans with M1s.

>>31504109
8mm mauser, 6.5x55, .30-06, 7.62x54r (and x53r for the token finns), and 7.7jap all used spitzer bullets that'd tumble because the majority of weight was behind the midpoint of the bullet. Some tumbled more than others, but pretty much the only ones that didn't ever tumble were 6.5 carcano and 6.5jap.

>>31503790

this but rimlock is a bitch with .303

>>31504109
5.56 fragments. 5.45 tumbles.

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>>31503727
>>31503767
>.30 Carbine M1 Ball in an 18-inch barrel - 967ft-lbs of muzzle energy
>"hurr .30 Carbine is a pussy round!"
>.45ACP M1 Ball in a 5-inch barrel - 352ft-lbs of muzzle energy
>"muh manstopper, knocked down dem Japs in one shot!"

Yes, I know a 1911 wasn't going to be used at 200m, while an M1 Carbine might, but still, we weren't giving our troops fucking BB guns. But talk to any fudd and they'll go on and on about how the M1 Carbine was an underpowered piece of shit suitable only for manlets.

>>31504163
FFL adopted M1 carbines after the war. .30 obviously wasn't a bad round.

>>31503588
Britain uses nato calibers you dummy

>>31504151
>who are the chinese and russians
>>31504155
The only cartridge that had a tendancy to tumble in ww2 were 7.7 jap and.303. But the majority of the time in ww2 you couldnt tell one caliber from another based on the exit wound.

This hurts to say as a brit but you're probably right. On paper it's got to be either the .303, 8mm Lebel or x54R since they were rimmed and that kinda trumps all other issues. In practice I imagine the 6.5 Carcano was worse due to manufacturing issues though.

The worst part is we almost adopted a .276 round just before WW1 which would have been by far the best back then and probably still be best today.

>>31504203
>>who are the chinese and russians

Russians were by far in the minority compared to UK, US and China. Both the US and the UK supplied large numbers of M1 Garands and SMLEs respectively. So yeah, Japs come up against superior rifles throughout the war.

>>31504238
Nothing wrong with rimmed in bolt actions.

>>31504163
The m1 carbine had a couple issues.
>short skinny bullet that didn't tumble, expand, or fragment
In the Philippines that meant we were poking .30-cal holes through skinny drugged-up jihadists and narcoterrorists and they weren't dropping (in time). In Korea it meant the round didn't have the energy to penetrate 6+" of cheap, coarse wool greatcoat *and* the nork/chink behind it at 150m.
>longer/heavier than even the US service SMG of the era while supposedly filling the same role
Especially true when compared to the M2 carbine or the para carbine with the folding stock.

Now it also had a lot going for it
>good sights and a relatively flat trajectory
People could hit man-sized targets with it to 300m pretty easily
>light compared to almost every other non-SMG fielded between WW2 and the start of Vietnam (lighter than SKS by a large margin) by any country
>comparatively high-capacity mags in an era where only SMGs had >10rd mags
10, 15, 20, and 32rd mags were issued with the 15's and 20's being by far the most prevalent. Even the 32rd mag was short enough to fire from prone without digging the mag in the dirt.

>>31504246
Now im not saying you're wrong. But at what point did the uk ever fight Japan?

>>31504238
I really don't know why 7x57 wasn't a more popular military round. It's a hella good hunting round (even today) and is one of the oldest of the smokeless military rounds. Ballistically comparable to 7mm-08 with similar recoil to it as well.

>>31504255
The Lee-Enfield didn't have any mechanism to prevent rimlock; necessitating a deliberate and slower method of clip loading.

>>31504238
The Brits designed .280 British after the war, which would've been brilliant.

Unfortunately, Americans had to ruin everything.

>>31504268
China and Indonesia at the start of the war.

>>31504275
>I really don't know why 7x57 wasn't a more popular military round.
Everyone else hated the krauts, and then NATO/Warpac standardization happened.

>>31504275
Is 7x57 better than 8x57?

>>31504246
Youre forgetting that the chinese used several mauser derivatives. Im not saying that garands arent better rifles than carcanos but the capacity and speed of carcanos were perfectly average for the time.

>>31504288
Indeed. I rather minced my words there. Was thinking of the 7mm British round which was designed prior to World War One but never adopted.

>>31504268
There was more to the war in the east than just the Pacific campaign. SE Asia was generally led by Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Campaign

1 million men were committed by 1945.

>>31504258
>short skinny bullet that didn't tumble, expand, or fragment
To be fair to it, most military rounds of the time had that issue. Either they were fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock, or they just poked the same .30cal hole as everyone else.
>longer/heavier than even the US service SMG of the era while supposedly filling the same role
Wait, what? The M1 Carbine was 5.8lbs loaded w/ sling and oil bottle. The M1A1 Thompson was 11lbs, and M3 Grease Gun was 9lbs.
Say what you will, but the M1 Carbine was a hilariously lightweight rifle.

>>31504304
No, you're right. Their inventory was an absolute clusterfuck. Mausers were generally used during the initial invasion as they were supported by Germany in the interwar period.

By '45 the majority were supplied with SMLEs and M1s.

>>31504303
IMO as a military cartridge hell yes it is.
>flatter trajectory due to higher velocity
>longer effective range due to single highest-BC bullet to exist prior to ~1950 (it was invented in 1893)
>less recoil due to significantly lighter bullet
>lower manufacturing costs due to less lead/copper needed
The Spanish fugged up a lot of people with it during multiple wars with zero issue, and it's still in use in a bunch of the backwater central and south american militaries as a precision rifle round. IIRC it's the longest-serving military round without changes with the last update happening in about 1936 (it's only 2 years newer than 7.62x54r as a whole)

>>31504343
>By '45 the majority were supplied with SMLEs and M1s.
Neat.
>tfw no ww2 lend lease chinese bringback m1 garand/carbine

>>31503774
>They Japanese found it to be lacking even against other Asiatic peoples, who are generally smaller in size and stature than soldiers fighting in the west.
Except this is wrong. 6.5mm Arisaka was fast tumbling projectile devastating against two legged critters.

So i have every caliber used in ww2 except 8mm lebel. What would be a good series of tests that i could post?

>>31504341
>m3 Grease Gun was 9lbs
no fucking way..
>look it up
>8.15lbs unloaded
Jesus Christ it doesn't look like it could possibly be that heavy.

>>31504407
Ballistic gel seems to be the way to go. Dunno how expensive that is though.

>>31504408
You gotta have a heavy bolt in a blowback subgun

7.7 Jap is shit.

>>31504435
Second. Theres a lack of data on the terminal ballistics of many ww2 cartridges. It would be difficult to try and duplicate the original loads though

>>31504408
Dat stamped steel

>>31504071
Hand dug American worm

>>31503553
Canada still uses .303 in their military, counting the Northern Rangers. Their new rifles are .308 though.

>>31504022
>The problem with the 6.5 Arisaka wasn't the total KE of the round, it was the fact that it was a nonexanding weight-forward flat-based bullet so it didn't expand, tumble, or fragment at all.
Wew lad.

The 6.5 mm. (0.256 in.) (fig. 9) bullet, especially one made with a gilding metal (an alloy of copper and zinc) jacket, when it hit a target had an explosive effect and tended to separate, leaving the entire jacket in the wound while the bullet went on through. Small globules of lead scattered through the wound and embedded themselves elsewhere in the flesh. This condition was the result of the fact that the rear-section walls of the bullet jacket, which was filled with a lead core, were thinner than the forward walls. The sudden stoppage of the high-velocity bullet when it hit an object produced a tendency to burst the rear walls causing an "explosion." The lead core, which had a greater specific gravity, penetrated, leaving behind the relatively lighter jacket from which it had been discharged. The bullets made with cupronickel jackets had more of a tendency to retain their lead cores because of the greater tensile strength of the alloy when compared with the strength of the gilding-metal-jacketed bullet.

>>31504178
FFL has a reputation for skimping on gear and using hand-me-downs. Nothing wrong with the M1s though.

>>31504439
Yup. Always wondered why no one's really done a proper locked-breech SMG, other than a couple of already-niche guns. Might be more expensive, but you could really save on weight if you did it right. Hell, the MP5 did delayed blowback, and that turned out great.

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>>31504456
I have a few surplus still kicking around. But I'm sure the various milsurp websites could provide historic load specs.


I'll have to find an M1 Carbine though. that is a gap in my milsurps.

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>>31503669
7.62x54r wasn't used exclusively in the Mosin Nagant. Russian machine guns use it, and the presence of the rim makes extraction easier. Also, I believe some of their modern bolt action rifles use 7.62x54r, although that's kinda irrelevant.

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>>31503388
.303 was the worst in that it was tied for last with anything else with a rim.

>>31504562
Lever delayed blowback was used by the Italians. The Hungarians also had their own as well.

>>31505095
SVD uses it too, as does the Vepr hunting semi auto.

>>31504268
Burma, the commonwealth foight Japan as much as the yankees

>>31504500
>multiple factories offered to make new production Lee Enfields but the Canadians passed because the Finns gave the fatter bribes
REEEEEEEE

>>31504562
Probably not worth the money for all the parts needed, also with new loads being developed for rifle caliber carbines the SMG as a concept is on it's last legs.

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how does .303 stack up with 7.7 Arisaka?

How does 6.5 Carcano compare to 6.5mm Arisaka?

I ask this because I don't know hardly anything about IJ weapons.

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>>31503627

>>31503727
It was an excellent round for engagements 100 yards and under.

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We was shooting some 303 into a pond bank from about 60 yards and it was throwing huge clumps of sod way up in the air, at least 40'. I think higher.
Good ammo.

>>31504258
>Tfw the M1 was originally going to be select-fire and issued with 30-round mags

We could have beaten those krauts to the punch by three fucking years if the brass hadn't turned their nose up at the idea.

>>31507814
.30 Carbine is closer to a pistol round than rifle. So no, it's still not an assault rifle

>>31507900
So its an intermediate cartridge? Gee that sounds like an assault rifle.

>>31507900
By what insane metric is .30 Carbine not an intermediate round?

>>31507974
hurr durr it's got a rounded bullet, that means it's for handguns.

>>31504268
Jesus fucking Christ /k/. How far have you fallen that you don't even know about WW2 anymore?

>>31505368
>>multiple factories offered to make new production Lee Enfields
>from actual reputable factories
Holy shit that would have been awesome. I can imagine they would be expensive though, it's a lot of metal, machining and wood compared to modern bolt actions.

>>31505257
>tfw you own a vepr in x54r
It feels good being supreme some days.

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>>31505095
Yes, this beauty uses 54R

>>31508460
We will be fighting space wars, and Space Russia will still be using 54R

>>31504238
Howwell does the 6.5x55 tumble ?

>>31507974
>How .30 Carbine not intermediate?!

It's too weak, anon. Almost there but it can't reliably fuck things up at 300 yards. It's basically a rimless .327 magnum.

>>31503960

Was it really so bad that soldiers would rather dive on grenades than shoot it at the enemy?

>>31508460
I don't even know where to start. It's almost sad. The nigga who owns this needs to take a class in economics and pay attention during resource allocation.

>>31504500
I find it funny whenever someone refers to the Rangers as military. Technically true, but c'mon. Those rifles are for shooting wolves, not russians.

>>31509402
Are you retarded and think thats a Mosin?

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6.5×50mmSR Arisaka. So weak it was adapted into the Federov as a quasi-intermediate cartridge.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-semiauto-rifles/fedorov/

there was a Swedish Mauser variant chambered in the Swedish HMG cartridge to give the HMG gunners extra firepower without making them carry two types of Ammo. Most powerful issued cartridge to standard infantry.

>>31504000
TRIPS

>>31504258
>n Korea it meant the round didn't have the energy to penetrate 6+" of cheap, coarse wool greatcoat *and* the nork/chink behind it at 150m.
This myth was disproven a long time ago.

8mm lebel was the worst by far. Not its balistics or power, but its heavily tapered case that made it so complicated to design a semi-auto or automatic gun around it.

>>31504178
The whole French military did. NCOs carried a M1 and parachutists had the M1A1, widely used in Dien Bien Phu.

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>>31505095
A list of firearms that use it:

Rifles:
The various Mosin–Nagant bolt-action rifles including the sawn-off "Obrez" pistol
The American Winchester Model 1895. Approximately 300,000 made for the Russian army in 1915–16.
AVB-7.62
AVS-36
Dragunov sniper rifle (including Chinese NDM-86 variant)
JS 7.62
SVT-38 and SVT-40
PSL sniper rifle
M91
Berkut-2M1
IZH-18MH
SV-98 (Snaiperskaya Vintovka Model 1998)
Alejandro Sniper Rifle
Dragunov SVU (1991 redesign of the Dragunov sniper rifle)
Vepr sporting rifle
MTs-13, 300m sporting rifle
AVL, Service rifle lightweight, based on Los
AV, Mosin based standard service rifle
TsVR, Rekord, Rekord-1, Rekord CISM, KO-13—service rifle
TsVT, Typhoon 300m sporting rifle
CAVIM Catatumbo Sniper Rifle

Machine guns:
DP compared with AK-47, showing also scale comparison between bullets and designed rifles (7.62×54mmR to 7.62×39mm)

2B-P-10
Degtyaryov machine gun (DP28)/(RP-46)
DS-39
GShG-7.62 machine gun
Hua Qing Minigun
Madsen machine gun
PK machine gun (also known as PKM)
PKP "Pecheneg" machine gun
PM M1910
PV-1 machine gun
RP-46 machine gun
Slostin machine gun
Savin-Narov machine gun
SG-43 Goryunov
ShKAS machine gun
Type 53/57 machine gun
Type 67 machine gun and Type 80 machine gun.
Type 73 light machine gun
Uk vz. 59
Zastava M84

>>31503553
Poor people still eat cat food and sniff glue to go to sleep, does that make it any good?

>>31503616
Yeah, I don't understand this meme. It was good enough to cap a President.

>>31503553
Hi Points are used today. I guess that makes them good, right?

>>31511394
It helped that Oswald was also a good shot

>>31504277
>slower
>mad minute

pick one.

>>31504268
Via India, Burma and Malaysia, plus numerous Naval engagements. Some of the fighting between the British and Japanese was every bit as brutal as the US island hopping.

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>.303
>not 6.5x52
They had two world wars to get shit right, and they fucked it on both.

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>>31511394
>>31511398
>Implying implications I don't implicatively agree with

>>31511398
Hi-Points are good. They're cheap self defense pistols that don't break, jam or explode on their owner. Granted they're not super accurate as other pistols and they're ugly as hell but the cost more than makes up for it.