Without NATO support, could an EU military defend against

If russia disregards civilian casualitues then fuck no

>>31367994
>Could a conglomerate of cucked governments that don't even care about or support their own people and who have extremely low military spending and whose military leaders won't be able to decisively agree because no one wants to turn their own country into a wasteland of war where most of Western Europe doesn't care about Eastern Europe defend against a far larger nation with a will to bring Russia into it's next golden age as the only superpower in the world stands by and does absolutely nothing?

Rephrased it for ya.

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>>31367994
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, the answer is definitely no. Actually make it a "fuck no".

>Russia has 1000 warheads in service
>EU has about 500 altogether
>Russia has mediocre early warning radar and depends more on ground based silos

If I were in charge of either the UK or France, and this happened, I'd launch all of my nukes, and send a communique to the other country advising that if they don't do the same thing, I'm saving 5 or 6 warheads for them.

Like, maybe a surprise nuclear attack followed by a massive air assault would be enough, but I doubt it.

Yes, but only with tactical nukes. Everyone knows this.

>>31367994
Yes. Put Van Rompuy in charge.

Just tell Nigel to stop bullying him for the campaign and asking him who he is and you have a might yuro force that can sweep the slav back to his orkish realm.

hahahahaha no.... not a chance

>>31367994
not really. Only country in the EU that gives two shits about its army is poland.

>>31368048
>Russia invades Europe
>Token resistance put up in Baltic states, they fall and their armed forces are absorbed under the Russian banner
>Now unleashing it's full military might, Russia steamrolls Ukraine
>The Balkans welcome Russia, as they as have pledged to remove kebab and only make the Balkan states satellites, only requiring their troops to fight alongside Russia
>Large forces of Balkan troops smash through Austria, take Italy, remove kebab, people welcome kebab removers as liberators
>Finland is untouched. Finland doesn't bother to get involved.
>Norway tries to mobilize in the North to attack Russia overland, accidentally crosses Swedish border due to mapping error
>Cuck Swedes under the recently ascended King Mahmoud I declare war upon Norway
>Norway wins, kebab removed, Swedes hail the Norges as liberators, Scandinavia left alone by Russia
>Russo-Baltic troops storm into Germany, quickly taking Berlin
>Merkel is stripped naked and hung by her feet upside down off the roof of the Reichstag
>Populace rejoice, kebab precedes to be removed
>Denmark, the UK, and France, seeing the turn of events, rebel against their cuck governments, where Russo-Baltic and Balkan troops quickly move to aid.
>The mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is killed by the Queen of England herself, God Save Her.
>The Liberated Peoples of Europe press into Spain and Portugal, cleansing them of kebab as Russia returns to its lands east of Poland, only keeping the Baltic countries and Balkan satellites
>New European leaders, seeing how liberalism has shattered their continent after a mere few years, proceed to launch a new Great Crusade
>Russia turns south, Europe turns east, and they cleanse Turkey of its sins.
>Constantinople is Greek again.
>The Byzantine Empire is reborn.
The Grand Alliance proceeds to remove kebab from the Mediterranean to the Ganges.
>Deus Vult
>The world is at peace

>>31368456
>cleanse Turkey of its sins.
What exactly does this entail?

>>31368424
>France doesn't care for its army

>>31367994

Not even a vague hope of Russia managing it.

Navy wise they would be BTFO beyond all comprehension, and thus out-manoeuvred on all coastal ends. Air wise, the EU has hundreds of Typhoons (widely regarded as second only to the F-22 in A2A), Gripens (that now have Meteor) and while they aren't BVR capable, France has a bunch of Rafales ready to go striking as they do with good defence net penetration ability against the SAMs. On the ground is dicier, but both the UK and France can hold command on a larger scale and their forces are by far the more experienced. Hell, Germany has more experienced soldiers than Russia these days, despite their issues.

And if the EU were actually mobilised industry wise and money wise, you can bet they would be outproducing Russia even more than they already do.

Overall, Russia might make one hell of a bloody dent into Eastern Europe (Baltics would certainly fall, Poland would be a warzone) but their hopes of even reaching Germany again would be hopeless.

>>31368490
removing it from the map

>>31368490
A lot.

For starters. Everything since the conquest by the ottomans. Then everything since the young Turks.

Depends on how much we rely on the Britcucks.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1799205/sex-change-soldier-is-britains-first-female-to-fight-on-front-line-after-being-born-a-boy/

>>31368505
Probably this.

It isn't the 80s where there's endless motor rifle companies ready to overwhelm any defenses.

Russia has very meager forces for expeditionary warfare, and the UK and France will likely put up a better fight than Georgia did.

Would Russia's goal in this scenario be to reach all the way from Moscow to Lisbon?

>>31368505
This except Poland would blunt the Russian advance and push the fight back to the Baltics IMO.

Honestly back when Ukraine first kicked off Poland had a pretty quick "nothing out of the ordinary just exercises" response time. I wouldn't be surprised if they were quick enough to bring the fight to the Russians before the Baltics fall either.

>>31368551
For pushing all the way to the Rhine that's true, but if Russia decides to take control of Eastern Europe it seems unlikely it would be possible for the rest of the EU to unseat them from those nations.

>>31368618
Right now, the EU has been paying next to no attention to defense, and Russia has been consumed by it.

As soon as this is no longer the case, Russia is likely to be more and more outclassed with each passing month.

I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but it really is quite similar to WW2.

>>31368456
>Portugal
>Kebab
Nigger you have no idea what are you talking about, other than that I'm fine with the rest.

Germany has like 7 Eurofighters which can actually fly.
UK is using all its money to buy muh fucking ramp carriers.
France is busy fighting an imported ethnic insurgency in Southern France.
Everyone else doesnt matter.

Remember, a T-90 can be in Berlin in 6 hours if it starts from Kaliningrad.

>>31367994

Russia would get fucked so hard it's not even funny.

Poland with air support of other EU countries would be more than enough to stop Russian invasion.

Daily reminder that globally the EU has the biggest economy in the world, if every country went full war effort instead of pumping money to kebabs and social security, the ruskies or anyone else would have a fucked up time trying to taking Europe. But desu, as an Euro, I would not mind if ruskies did some cleansing in this liberal hellhole.

>>31367994
Is Trump & May backing Putin?

>>31368747
The smaller nations couldn't actually contribute all that much. Pumping up their spending multiple times would just end with more light infantry.

Though Russia's economy is small enough that the big players in the EU should be able to outspend it by themselves.

>>31368677
My mistake, I lumped Spain and Portugal together for that sentence as I know Spain has tons of migrant issues in the south

>>31368713
>Poland with air support

Cruise missiles on airfields, no more air support, only liberation.

>to stop Russian invasion
>forgetting the "a", typical slav mistake

I found the Pole.

>>31368713
Hahahah, almost no. Poland would fight bravely but would ultimately fold due to lack of numbers, Germany is practically useless at this point thanks to Merkel's suicidal defense policies and budget cuts, France and England would bear the weight of the defense and eventually drive the Russians into a halt, or maybe even repel them. Stop pretending like it would be a walk in the park.

>>31368747
>went full war effort

You realize after 1945, this means "more nukes, better nukes."

Which isn't a terrible policy. I wouldn't mind that at all.

>>31368490
Total extermination of its muslim population.

>>31368505
>Germany has more experienced soldiers than Russia these days

Nigga, where the fuck are you pulling this out of?

>>31368490
New Byzantium, removal of the false western Pope and installation of a great Patriarch

>>31368747
>if every country went full war effort instead of pumping money to kebabs and social security

If

>>31368747
>>31368771
Economy =/= War economy
Look at German Army for one Germany has one of if not the best economy in the EU but no real army at all.
Look at the no.s 100 SPG's 38 MRL's 328 tanks 48 attack helicopters (and not one has a cannon).

>>31368864
Well, a lot of Germans have served with ISAF.

I doubt it's as many as Russians have served in the Caucasus, Georgia, and Ukraine though.

dtgrfdgrrhhr

>>31368817
Kaliningrad Oblast is completely cut off from Russia and is the size of Connecticut, exactly how long do you think it would last against the Poles? Not to mention that everyone knows about the missiles in Kaliningrad since Russia keeps being open about deploying Iskandars to Kaliningrad.

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>>31368796
Np, Portugal is the only western euro country with eastern euro levels of kebab, something like 0.2% of total population despite we having like 10% of immigrants. That's one of the few good things of our shitty economy and due to the fact that our ex colonies were converted by us to Christianity in the past.

>Mfw the retarded socialist government backed by the far left parties are welcoming rapefugees with open arms
>Mfw said refugees refuse to come here cause we're "poor" and can't give them the same shit as the krauts
>Mfw some of them actually come here and a couple weeks after arriving they leave to germany and other northern countries cause we're not friendly
>Mfw we're one of the friendliest and safest countries on earth

Official numbers state that we received near 700 rapefugees already, but tbf they're mostly families and actually women and kids, still we received 700 more than we should.

>>31367994
Russia doesn't have the money or equipment to carry out a prolonged invasion

>>31368456
Where is Poland in all this?

In terms of modern equipment Russia is totally outclassed, 500 t-90s vs however many thousand leopard 2 variants , 400 challenger 2s, leclerc ect

Assuming no nukes were used.

It would be a stalemate somewhere halfway up Poland. The Scandinavian front would be a side show, no real movement or actions.

Russia is not the red bear it once was.

its more like a drunk red bear now

>>31368825

Stop pretending that Russian army is not a mass of badly trained fags with shit morale and outdated equipment.

>>31367994
The russians do not have the level of competence, acumen, or desire to pull anything like this off.

>>31369336
So they totally won that war in Afghanistan in the 80s, right? they couldn't even handle a bunch of towel heads, listen to your fucking self.

Russia still treats its soldiers like shit.

Out of most nations, they get the least amount of pay.

A manager at a fast food restaurant makes more then the average Russian soldier.

They only time russia has any sort of morale is if they are being invaded on their own Turf, or with a officer's gun to their back.

but, you're a slaveboo. so here is your (You)

Mind you, they do have decent equipment, still not the best.

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>>31368456
I like you.

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>>31369216
>400 challenger 2s
>implying Bongland will be getting dragged into this shitfest
I dont bloody well think so mate, you Eurocucks are on your own

>>31368538
>the young turks
Their greatest sin.

>>31369421
I don't think you spotted the "not' in the post you replied to.

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>>31369488
shit anon, i'm sorry. I didn't mean to get aggressive on you. i got home from a 16 hour shift, i'm downing a 12 pack of booze, can you forgive me?

ill even post a image of Rick Astley in ISIS.

>>31369538
I'm not that guy, I'm trying to put off writing a paper that I should have finished ages ago.

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>>31367994
Well first off the EU does have more manpower at its disposal. While i'm sure Russia could just absorb the Baltic states, Belarus, and Ukraine before the EU could properly react it'd only be a matter of time. The combined forces of the EU are superior numerically. logistically, and arguably tech wise. Russia has the advantage of far more nuclear power (though i'm assuming this isn't going nuclear). The biggest issue for the EU is for its various military's to cohesively work together or else you'll have an Axis 2.0 of countries fighting around each other, not alongside each other. Also the EU would need to look elsewhere for gas/oil as Russia would no longer be a large supplier. Russia would probably be experiencing even worse economic backlash then they are now. I think it might end up in a sort of stalemate, Russia unable to penetrate western Europe, Europe unable to properly cooperate to penetrate Russia.

The UK wont be part of the EU military they so hope to have. By the time the EU has built their little building of theirs the UK will have left the EU.

Any scenario should really take the UK out of the equation.

>>31368845
yes

>>31368913

Russia circulated over 100,000 troops and 75,000 internal troops through the N. Causcas military district 02-12
While that's not combat experience that still leaves a p large amount of experienced reserves and men in a combat enviroment, more than Germanys ISAF contribution over the same years.

Russians probably the 3rd-6th most combat experienced modern military in the world today that is actually of any relevance, the only I can think of off the top of my head with any modern combat is (in no particular order) the US, UK, France, India, and Indonesia, and Russia probably falls somewhere in there.

>>31368747
>instead of pumping money to kebabs and social security
They don't spend all that much on social security. I also wasn't aware that fast food restaurants were being subsidised.

>>31368538
Will Putin demand their televised executions?

>>31370264
The UK is still part of Europe.
We weren't in the EU in '14 or '39 (since it didn't exist), didn't stop us going the right anyway.
Brexit will effectively change nothing in terms of our European relationship, all it does is ensure that we have absolutely no input and no control if the EU rules and regulations we'll still be party to. All whilst flogging off our nuclear energy to China.
Taking back control my ass, it was a cynical attempt to woo voters that went too far and now no one can back out for fear od losing face.

>>31368456
>Russia is anti-Islam

when will this meme end?

>>31368505
>Navy wise they would be BTFO beyond all comprehension
check the delusion on this one. Last I checked the US Navy has evolved in response the the Soviet and the Russian navy, not the euroshitter navies. The fuck do you think CSG have Aegis for?

>and thus out-manoeuvred on all coastal ends
You don't even have enough amphibous assets to land anything more than 2-3 brigades.

>Air wise, the EU has hundreds of Typhoons (widely regarded as second only to the F-22 in A2A)
A third of which are in Luftwaffe languishing in lack of maint. The piecemeal numbers of aircraft in other countries aren't far off from that condition, only British Tyffies are treated properly.

>Gripens (that now have Meteor)
On a shit frame with shit avionics, Flankers+++++++++ will eat them alive.

>France has a bunch of Rafales ready to go striking as they do with good defence net penetration ability against the SAMs
Against older non-upgraded SAMs you mean. Nap of the earth flying is also an insanely risky proposition now that most SAMs have greatly shortened firing times (as low as 2-3 seconds for PD SAMs like Pantsir) and optical/thermal backups not to mention greatly increased capability against ECM. There's a reason why the F-35 is a thing, and has thousands of orders while Rafale only has basic bitch hundreds.

>n the ground is dicier, but both the UK and France can hold command on a larger scale and their forces are by far the more experienced
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. British and French exercises involve Brigade to Division levels at their highest- the Russians regularly play with Divisions and Brigades and in most cases play with entire Armies worth- 100k, men thousands of tanks, ifvs, hundreds of aircraft, etc.

>Hell, Germany has more experienced soldiers than Russia these days, despite their issues.
Delusional as fuck.

>>31367994
Russia could defeat both NATO and the EU with their T-14 Armatas alone. It can literally defeat other tank rounds automatically, even if the enemy tank is only a couple of meters away. It can destroy enemy tanks from over 10,000 meters and can shoot-down aircraft. It's powerful engine means that it can travel faster and better over terrain than any other tank in the world, hell it would overrun NATO before they could even respond! It can even drive under water like a submarine, NATO would honestly never see it coming. It's literally industructible, and the crew can engage multiple targets at once with the highly advanced turret and optics, which can easily be replaced within like 5 minutes if it gets hit, which is almost impossible anyway. Because the computer systems are so advanced and easy to use, it only takes like 15 minutes to fully train a crew to use the tank. Lastly, the T-14 is super easy to maintain and nothing ever needs to be repaired or replaced cause Russia makes their stuff strong and reliable, unlike Western junk.

Don't mess with Russia.

>>31368543
>https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1799205/sex-change-soldier-is-britains-first-female-to-fight-on-front-line-after-being-born-a-boy/

First woman on the frontline was claimed by a man. Ha, makes me chuckle.

>>31368505
>And if the EU were actually mobilised industry wise and money wise, you can bet they would be outproducing Russia even more than they already do.
Preponderance of strategic scale PGMs(X-55/101s) means most means of production espeically important to the military gets bombed fast. At least Russia has IADS umbrellas protecting strategic infrastructure without needing help from PVO aircraft. Its doubtful the war would take long that mobilization efforts beyond reserve callups would matter much too.

>Overall, Russia might make one hell of a bloody dent into Eastern Europe (Baltics would certainly fall, Poland would be a warzone) but their hopes of even reaching Germany again would be hopeless.
In your fanfiction maybe but when Poland and Germany can't even mobilize enough troops with very, very generous timelines(which is why little green men are even hot topic issue, instead in these countries, not something most countires with adequate defensive measures consider routine) they are going to get steamrolled and the lines would stabilize around France at the likeliest beacuse of nukes.

>>31372564
Gimme a V
Gimme an A
Gimme a T
Gimme an N
Gimme an I
Gimme a K

What do you have? V-A-T-N-I-K MEME MAGIC

>>31369089
Sounds good mate. I did some reading about Portugal recently on your history and current affairs. What you said there just makes it more of a holiday destination for me now.

>>31372598
A
U
T
I
S
M

What does that spell?

(you)

>>31369421
>So they totally won that war in Afghanistan in the 80s
As if the current superpower is doing any better. Russia went in there in the equivalent of a drunken rage(the then leader Brezhnev is personal friends with the leaders of Afghanistan who were murdered), and didn't have any clearly defined win conditions, much like the US and friends. Apparently winning most of the battles and racking up impressive bodycounts doesn't count towards winning the war all that much when you don't even have a set goal in mind.

>Russia still treats its soldiers like shit.
>Out of most nations, they get the least amount of pay.
>A manager at a fast food restaurant makes more then the average Russian soldier.
The military provides for the soldier's basic needs of food, shelter, and clothing, and even opportunity for self advance like obtaining training or education. His pay is basically all beer money.

>They only time russia has any sort of morale is if they are being invaded on their own Turf, or with a officer's gun to their back.
in most armies articles of war, leaving or abandoning your post tends to get you shot at by your officer. And lol, the soldiers who wrecked Ukraine and Georgia have very high morale to charge in the thick of battle with limited support against greater numbers and firepower. If they didn't they would've failed and the situation won't be the same as today.

>>31368456
>>The Balkans welcome Russia, as they as have pledged to remove kebab and only make the Balkan states satellites, only requiring their troops to fight alongside Russia
>>Large forces of Balkan troops smash through Austria, take Italy, remove kebab, people welcome kebab removers as liberators
Balkans are objectively useless at war region chock full of braindead morons
t. Bulgarian

>>31372442
It's not a meme, it's propaganda. Russia wants to hide how much of a shithole they are by pretending others are worse, and pretending Europe is being invaded by muslims is their way of doing so. They've been distancing themselves of Europe and the US on many similar social aspects.

That way vatniks get fucked over by their government on a regular basis while imagining that the poor Germans don't actually have better living standards on all relevant metrics and that the foreigners and muslims only count as a small percentage of the population. I'm not saying that Merkel isn't a stupid cunt and they should let refugees in, I'm just saying that the issue is blown out of proportion compared to the shit vatniks go through on a daily basis.

>>31369089
>be swiss
>get invaded by portugese
Well the portugese might insufferable and speak the ugliest language in human history, at least the only problems they bring is speaking too loud and wearing too much hair gel. I only hate you as much as I hate swiss germans. Still much better than albanians, let alone that shit coloured scum.

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>>31372564
>we will krush you washingtons and europe, we are mighty and our weapon are stronk like mother russia

>>31368495
Nope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbin_Valley_ambush?wprov=sfla1

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>>31368307
>Russia has mediocre early warning radar and depends more on ground based silos
lolwut? And they have 1500 warheads actually, thrice more than what eu cucks have. Plus you need much more than 500 warheads to have any chance of destroying the ground based ones- silos are particularly hardy targets that would warrant more than 1 warhead while the mobile truck based ones you gonna need to have psychics or couple dozen warheads shotgunning the launch reserve.
>>31368551
>Russia has very meager forces for expeditionary warfare
Across the sea it is true, but Russia is connected to Europe via a vast plain. If the Russians could shuttle forces across its expanse it can do so just as well if not better across Europe especially with Europe's well developed transportation infrastructure.
>>31368614
>This except Poland would blunt the Russian advance and push the fight back to the Baltics IMO.
Poland can't do anything but defend themselves and delay. They aren't that big nor are they capable of mobilizing in time to stop a determined Russian advance on their own.

>>31372672
>pretending Europe is being invaded by muslims is their way of doing so
How can you type without errors with your head so far under the sand?

>>31372742
>google RT + Germany + Refugees
>only get negative shit about Germany
Do you think this is random maybe ?

>>31368456
>Baltic states, they fall and their armed forces are absorbed under the Russian banner

Probably the only part of the baltic countries that would put up the fiercest resistance and it is absorbed into russian forces?

>>31372773
>Doing retarded shit
>gets called out on it
At the very fucking least they aren't recommending taking even more useless eaters like the echobergs do.

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>>31372598
HOW LOW CAN YOU GO?
O
W

L
O
W

C
A
N

Y
O
U

G
O
?

>>31372549
>On a shit frame with shit avionics, Flankers+++++++++ will eat them alive

Which flanker? One of those special snowflake ones only built a handful of? Given that russia uses R-27 as their main BVR armament, the Gripen would rape the shit out of any russian bird with ease.

Nein, especially if the brits don't help.

The ruskies are way fucking more motivated, and even the Hungarian and Poles might even help them since EU is bullshit.

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>>31372598
>>31372683

>>31372834
>Poles might even help them since EU is bullshit
Have you missed the burning hate pretty much all of eastern Europe has for russia?
According to Poles, russians are subhuman barbarians and a plauge upon the earth.

>>31372875
Still prefer it to the liberalization performed by the EU.

>>31372827
>Which flanker? One of those special snowflake ones only built a handful of? Given that russia uses R-27 as their main BVR armament, the Gripen would rape the shit out of any russian bird with ease.
Any of the 450-ish upgraded Flankers would do, its not like the europoors have the force multiplier assets the USAF employs to keep its F-16 competitive against qualitatively better planes, and the Gripen is not that better of your Block 50 F-16s. And they have R-77-1s now, in active service use, and not just fresh into IOC.

>>31368456
>Butthurt dreamer

>>31372875
seethingly buttblasted, this one.
Don't worry the Big Players will mention you from time to time e.europe.

>According to Poles, russians are subhuman barbarians and a plauge upon the earth.
Tough talk coming from wiggers who owe their standard of living from Western Europe's chump change. If Western Europe leans the other way when Russia ravages you you can't do anything about it.

>>31372875
Its true. They are.

>>31367994

The response wouldn't be nearly as quick as the EU would want, allowing Russia to gain a lot of ground in the first few days of the conflict, but Russia would get its shit pushed in horribly in the end.
I don't know where this illusion that Russia is still a military (or any other) superpower comes from. Remember, this is the country of <150 million with a GDP of $1 trillion. Their air, armor and navy numbers seem somewhat impressive until you realize that all but about 5% of it is 70's stuff that can't be fielded effectively or with any hope of competing with a military outside of Sub-Saharan Africa. Their nuclear arsenal and general unpredictability is the only reason they're still considered a player by the developed world.

>>31372941
What about their successful military intervention in Syria and Ukraine?

>>31368505
Utter bullshit.

Russia would so easily and so gracefully fuck the ever loving shit out of all euro cucked countries so fast that you'll forget they even existed 2 weeks after they've finished.

Russia just has too many men, too many planes, and too much military spending as a whole to be stopped by "more experienced" nations.

Once Russia gets past Poland and the Baltic, it's over.

This is not to mention the serbians will support them.

Daily reminder that russia is no longer communist, it is the EU that is communism now.

>>31368747
>if every country went full war effort instead of pumping money to kebabs and social security
>instead of pumping money to kebabs and social security
Euro here. That's big fucking IF.

An EU military couldn't defend against any invasion, no matter how small. Something as simple as supplying the front with ammunition would be blocked by one or two countries and then after three years of discussions, front line troops would be supplied with blanks as a compromise.

>>31372834
>polish
>helping russia

WEW LADDY

>>31372984
This time Russia is no longer communist.

They have more common with Russia than the EU.

>>31372946
>successful military intervention in Syria

How exactly does the ability to bomb some ragtag rebels in the third world with moderate success translate into being able to pull off a full scale invasion into mainland Europe?

>Ukraine

Starting a proxy war in a shit ass post-soviet country and supplying the "rebels" with a moderate amount of armor and artillery and a small amount of manpower to keep it going != fighting a war against the first world.

>>31372949
>Russia would so easily and so gracefully fuck the ever loving shit out of all euro cucked countries

Memes: the post. If you lay off RT for a moment maybe you'll get a sense of scale. Russia isn't the 60's USSR, but a 100% paper tiger, bullying former USSR member states into obedience and providing air support in a low intensity COIN conflict is about the limit of their military capabilities.

>>31373036

You have no clue whatsoever. The Polish may dislike the EU establishment, but they absolutely DESPISE Russia.
Saying Poland would support Russia in an aggression against the rest of Europe is about as retarded as saying that if there was a war to the death between Catholicism and Islam, the Orthodox church would fight for Islam.

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>>31367994
It's not up to Russia to decide, OP.

BTW Germany do You want Your Koenigsberg sparkling or flat?

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>>31369567
This. Sorry Ivan.

>>31372442
>>31372672
This.
Russia literaly has an islamic republic in it. Praise Kadyrov.

>>31367994
> Without NATO support, could an EU military defend against a Russian invasion?
Without NATO (i.e. US military and our fucking taxes supporting these fucking social welfare shits), Russians would roll over these Euros so hard.
Russia has 3x the nukes the entire EU combined has, they don't need a navy because they have nukes and have a direct land route to Germany and Europe (you could get from Moscow to Berlin in 18 hours on 50 to 70mph), and the logistics and training of the main military forces of Europe is utter shit. Germany's military has been rocked with scandals in the past half decade, France literally ran out of bombs in two weeks of fighting in Libya, and Italy... just fucking forget about Italy. Also, a large contingent of France's forces is actually playing empire around in their former colonial territories.

The only competent military force in Europe (aside from our forces there) are from the UK. That's it. And much of it is based on nuclear deterrence with how much previous governments have fucked their military in recent years.

And it all comes back down to that. Most of these "enlightened" fucking welfare states were derelict in their duty as our allies in NATO, so fucking brash to call themselves advanced societies and thought of us as shitty gung-ho cowboys, that they thought they didn't need armies anymore until Ukraine happened. If you don't spend money on your militaries and discourage men to join them, you're going to have a shit military. Fucks sake.

A combined European army better fucking hope that the Baltics and Poland provide a good enough meat shield with their troops and Russia doesn't use nukes in the initial fighting to have any chance at winning. Because if the Russians break through Poland in the first week of combat to Berlin, this game is over.

>>31373089
It does?

>>31368307
that's 1000 warheads for targets at several continents vs 500 aimed directly at the non-siberian russia

europe would get wrecked but russia as we know it would cease to exist altogether

>>31373066
Senpai, but the Russian Orthodx Church is Kremlin bitch.

> Russian church has showed full support to multicultural policy led by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for Church and Society (OVTSO), Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, speaking in Moscow in 2013 at a press conference on the problems of adaptation of migrants, said that Russia would benefit from the influx of migrant workers in the event of successful cultural and social adaptation.

"The ability to accept new people - it is always a testimony to the power of society, and the process of adoption new people into the community - one of the keys to its future strength, stability and development of effective" - leads the "Interfax" words of the representative of the Russian Church.

According to Vsevolod Chaplin, you should not think that the best way to save society - is to maintain its formal homogeneity, building barriers against the new members of society.

>>31373119
Did you look at a map yet? Non-Siberian Russia is almost as big as Europe itself.

>>31373119
You can fit the entirety of Germany in the Caucasus region of Russia alone.

>>31369567
>German logistics
>French strategy
>Italian competence
I can see this going well

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>>31373123
Rural Russia is depopulated, senpai.

>>31373122
>multicultural policy
Isn't Germany and France like the biggest example of why not to even do that shit at all?

>>31373131
Rural everything is depopulated everywhere. That doesn't mean they don't have bases there. We have the same thing in Nebraska and shit.

>>31372658
I think he meant the former Yugo barbarians. If once in their existence fought together against someone, they would wreak havoc. If armed properly they could form the most dangerous army in Europe.
They might be brain dead and horrible politicians, but they are excellent fighters.

>>31373119
Nuke armed Kalibrs and X-101s bruh. At least 1500 warheads to mate.

>>31367994
russia would get rekt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu89xtiCA9k

Yes but that's much more due to Russia being a shadow of its former self than European gumption.
France and England are the only two countries with trained and fully equipped troops. German troops are good but their funding is atrocious and their readiness rate a fucking disaster. Poland is ex third world and would certainly put up a fight but no way can they stop the Ruskies on their own. The Bsltic states are too small and also kinda third world and Italy is populated by Italians.
The Nords are too small to either hold Russia on their own or to invade Russia, and unless attacked are highly unlikely to get involved.

But it's 2016. Russia doesn't have the manpower, logistics or modern air force to wage a war on a wide scale. They'd get to Poland then get shitfucked by their own ineptitude and the EU reaction force.

>>31373131
There's only 200+ cities in Europe with populations of 100,000 or more. Densely packed and shit. The Russians will still have over 12,000 left after an initial civilian barrage.

>>31373147
>and Italy is populated by Italians
Do they even have a military?

>>31372549

>check the delusion on this one

Because the Russian navy has shit tier availability, is almost completely vulnerable to Astute, Trafalgar and Rubis subs and if there's a couple things EU navies are fucking good at, it's ASW and air defence. Also, they have 3 (soon 5) carriers, Russia only has one crappy one.

>You don't even have enough amphibous assets to land anything more than 2-3 brigades.

For some reason you seem to think that only those trained to fight opposed coastlkines can land amphibiously?

>On a shit frame with shit avionics, Flankers+!

Delusion.

>only British Tyffies are treated properly.

And we're ignoring Russia's hilariously shit availability now?

>Against older non-upgraded SAMs you mean.

Let me know the last time Russian air defence equipment ever held up then. They tried to shut down Syria's skies and the RAF flew right through them the next day without a fucking care. Rafale's proven itself too in being able to dodge Russian S-300 systems too. You seem to have this mindset that somehow Russia will always be perfect.

> the Russians regularly play with Divisions and Brigades and in most cases play with entire Armies worth-

Grouping a bunch of guys inside your own country is hardly showing capability of logistics. Lemme know last time they deployed 50,000 including heavy armour and combined arms warfare to another continent over seas and air to conduct a war. Russia would suddenly have to cross countries, they have fuck all experience in that regard.

>>31373149
> 12,000
Fuck, I meant 1,200.

>>31373151
Yeah. Just like in WW2, 10% of it is outstanding troops and the other 90% just want to eat pasta and listen to music with their moms.

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>>31372597

>Preponderance of strategic scale PGMs(X-55/101s) means most means of production espeically important to the military gets bombed fast

>He thinks Russia could freely bomb western Europe

>>31373153
>they have 3 (soon 5) carriers, Russia only has one crappy one.
What the fuck is the use of a carrier in the European front? I understand if we're talking about the Pacific, but Berlin is literally 18 hours away from Moscow in a 70mph car.
That literally means an air war can be fought from Russian air bases and commandeered airports.

This is /k/, not fucking retard land. Where the fuck do idiots come from thinking carriers mean anything in a European land war?

>>31373156
Technically they can with nukes.

>>31373160

Gee, anon, it's almost like there's oceans carry both ways along the continent to bring within strike range of anything the EU wants (Fuck, even Cyprus is within range) or to deploy from flanking areas, or gain striking range into Russia. And it's almost like one of the major powers of Europe is on a fucking island or something.

It's almost like you haven't thought this whole "invading Europe" thing completely through. This isn't the 40's anymore, Ruskie, naval range from the coasts is a big issue, as is losing your ports and trade lanes in a world even more connected than it once was.

>>31373163

The moment they launch a nuke at a civilian populace is the moment the war ends for both sides. They're delusional, but they aren't suicidal.

>>31373169
The Russians have nukes. Bringing carriers into waters teeming with Russian subs just gives them the correct coordinates to launch their shit on your carriers.

And losing ports mean nothing to Russia. They can trade with Central Asia and China by land. They have oil and other fuel resources in their own territory.

Russians have included losing territory in their war strategies ever since Napoleon fucked their capital in the 1800s.

And the closer you get to the Russian mainland means you are exposing yourself to subs, potential mined waters, nukes, and the Russians' own air defenses and air units.

For a land war, a carrier air force is filthy useless. They're just another air base in a continent filled with air bases and airports that can be turned into air bases.

Also, Russian doctrine does allow nuclear use once their ground forces are losing, so yeah, there's a reason we ain't sending boots to Ukraine.

>there are people who really believe aircraft carriers mean anything in a European ground war

>>31368456
I'm not sure the Balts will ever join up with the Russians.

>>31373122

I know, but what exactly does that have to do with anything I said?
Are you unable to comprehend parables?

>>31373045
>The limit

The deal is that they do not want to deploy such a large scale invasion to simply bully former soviet states and/or poke at the Syrian rebels.

But if the EU really wanted to fuck with Russia, they'd get the hammer p quick.

>>31372925
>buttblasted
>missing the point

I'm personally not invested in russians status as humans but Poles are.
The premise that Poles or Balts would willingly subjugate themselves to the russians is laughable.

>>31373153
>Let me know the last time Russian air defence equipment ever held up then. They tried to shut down Syria's skies and the RAF flew right through them the next day without a fucking care.
Why the fuck would they shoot down the RAF's planes when they are pretty much the only NATO country actively fighting IS only in Syria? And the S-400 is only there to protect the Russian contingent in Syria under its umbrella; the Israelis regularly traipse over Russian controlled skies to bomb hezb and sometimes the SAA but that is with tacit permission from the Russians.
>Rafale's proven itself too in being able to dodge Russian S-300 systems too.
Against an old S-300PMU system, cut off from Russian upgrades ok...
>You seem to have this mindset that somehow Russia will always be perfect.
And you have a way of looking at Europe's best and applying that assessment to all of Europe.
>Grouping a bunch of guys inside your own country is hardly showing capability of logistics. Lemme know last time they deployed 50,000 including heavy armour and combined arms warfare to another continent over seas and air to conduct a war. Russia would suddenly have to cross countries, they have fuck all experience in that regard.
There's a magic that reduces one's logistical capabilities when crossing a land border now?

>>31368456
>UK
>EU
Could swear they just got done telling the EU to go fuck itself. Did they reverse course or something?

>>31373153
>Russia would suddenly have to cross countries, they have fuck all experience in that regard.
They crossed right next door to Georgia pretty easy.
What you're disregarding here is how close Russia actually is to Europe. Moscow is an 18 hour drive away. Kaliningrad is an 8 hour drive away. That's almost the same time as San Francisco to Las Vegas.

>>31373234
The current government is delaying it.

>>31373202
You're right.

>>31372790
Estonia would, don't know about the other ones, but I'm pretty sure they would not get absorbed.

>>31368456

>>31372911
>R-77-1
All intercepts russia has made over the baltic sea has been equipped with the R-27s. Not even russia trusts the R-77-1 and even if it worked as advertised it would be vastly inferior to the Meteor. While Russia has much more planes than Sweden, if they want to take on all of Europe as OP asked, there is no way Russia would win the air war over the Baltic sea, not without critically exposing themselves on other fronts. As a whole, the EU has more and better planes than russia and armed with the Meteor and AIM-120, much better missiles as well.

>>31373153
>And we're ignoring Russia's hilariously shit availability now?
Have you looked at Syria lately? They got availability in spades and that's just with a shoestring budget. If they want they can achieve similar availability rates across a much bigger portion of their airforce by simply canceling the budget for exercises, not that they need those with a real war happening.

>if there's a couple things EU navies are fucking good at, it's ASW and air defence
Good, but you're not on the level of the US Navy, whom the Russians have prepared for. You'd get slaughtered.

>>31373256
The Swedes have already said they can only defend Stockholm for a week under their current readiness. If I were the Russians, I would simply ignore the Nordics keep the Baltics in check with token forces, then just ramrod through Lithuania to link up with Kaliningrad and crush Poland almost immediately.
The Russians can't let the EU mobilize, because even with their hipster population, a hipster with a shitty G36 is still a guy with a gun.
If any war actually breaks out, the Russians need to make sure their logistics is up to par even if their other shit is crap. The EU, as it is now, is wholly unprepared for a conventional war in Europe, outside of the Baltics and Poland.

>>31373281
How can anyone live with himself knowing that the most degrading panic syndrome is named after your capital?

>>31373283
Swedes can. For the most obvious of reasons.

>>31373256
>All intercepts russia has made over the baltic sea has been equipped with the R-27s
Missiles have pylon life. For routine intercepts an R-27 would do.

>Not even russia trusts the R-77-1
They wouldn't have it in the theater that is likeliest for its use if they don't trust it completely don't they?

>there is no way Russia would win the air war over the Baltic sea
They only need a fraction of the total Western MD's aircraft strength to enforce air superiority over the Baltics, what with the extended coverage of IADS over what is basically Russian lake. And last I checked Europe does have much in the way of Wild Weasel aircraft the US does that is needed to counter that threat.

>As a whole, the EU has more and better planes than russia and armed with the Meteor and AIM-120, much better missiles as well.
All can be armed with Meteors now, instead of a handful of Gripens?

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>>31369170
It's right here

>>31373286
>For the most obvious of reasons.
Are you referring to the Swedes' innate sense of superiority or knowledge of where the term comes from?

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>>31373219
>I'm personally not invested in russians status as humans but Poles are.
Poles and other e.euros aren't humans either, why are we even pretending?

>The premise that Poles or Balts would willingly subjugate themselves to the russians is laughable/gives me seething butthurt.
liberation comes to you, whether you want it or not.

>>31373202
The russians living among the balts would.

>>31373269

>Have you looked at Syria lately?

Yes, a tiny amount of resources into an allied country and have achieved middling results who's "100% accuracy!" claims could onlt be true if their target were "the ground". hardly something to tout.

>Good, but you're not on the level of the US Navy, whom the Russians have prepared for. You'd get slaughtered.

I think you need to do a lot more learning about what quantifies ASW and the problems Russia would have with AAW before you speak. Russia's navy is a rusting joke of availability, with zero experience and against nations who are mostly all running AESA radar equipped AAW ships now, using missiles at minimum equal to the US ones with many of them even having Aegis equivilent systems in PAAMS. Thats before you even count the often ignored thing of "How the fuck would Russia even find their targets?" given their AEW is shit tier by comparison to even the Sea Kings, let alone the new RN Merlins or the Hawkeyes that France can bring to the table.

It's like you're operating under this strange fantasy world where Russia knows where everything is instantly because of vodka magic.

>>31367994
Russia's GDP is about the size if Spain's and its exports are less than those of Belgium. The EU also has ~500 million people vs ~140 million of Russia. If that's not a sufficient answer for you, nothing will be.

>>31369099
This. Russians stall out by the time they get through Poland, at best. It doesn't even matter if the Germans suck, the Russians will have used up all the tanks and rounds left over from the Soviet Union they've been saving for a rainy day, and then they're done.

>>31373344
500 million soft peacenik Euros that thought they didn't need strong militaries until Ukraine happened is not something that means anything in a war.
Italy also has twice the GDP of Russia. There is no one in this board in their right mind that will say the Russians will lose to the Italian military in a war.

>>31373344
Belgium's GDP is almost 3 times more than Russia's. Are you telling me they can defeat the Russians in total war? GDP has no bearing on whether a country is ready to go to total war. You don't even know what the GDP is comprised of. GDP is the grand total sum number of all products and services a country has in a specific period of time.
If all your products are chocolates and your services are all financial, how useful is that going to be in a war?

>>31373346
You can get your military to subsist on land they capture. Besides, money can be produced from fiat currency rather easily. The issue would be Chinese goods going to Russia through Siberia and Central Asia. I don't think Europe has enough ability to blockade land borders.

>>31373341
>Yes, a tiny amount of resources into an allied country and have achieved middling results who's "100% accuracy!" claims could onlt be true if their target were "the ground". hardly something to tout.
They are saving up the PGMs for the real war, not wasting them in what is basically a live fire exercise, unlike some cough France cough cough who ran out of the good stuff in 2 weeks, pathetic. Plus, its not like the results are any worse, the primary effect of airstrikes is in breaking up enemy concentrations in preparation for attacks for instance. Body counts are nothing when the enemy has a near infinite pool to draw from.

>who are mostly all running AESA radar equipped AAW
hahahahaha.

>missiles at minimum equal to the US ones
at maximum equal to US/Russian missiles from the cold war you mean.
100+ km active seeker SAMs are old news.

>Sea Kings, let alone the new RN Merlins or the Hawkeyes that France can bring to the table.
You comparing a helo to fixed wing Aviation recce assets like Tu-142, and Tu-22m3s? You right in the head, son? Plus the Legenda successor is operating in partial capacity nowadays, mostly around the northern seas where they are needed probably.

>>31373374
To the defense of the French, they started using cement shit (basically their own version of barrel bombs) after they ran out of actual bombs.

>>31373373
>You can get your military to subsist on land they capture.
This is not the Napoleonic wars. Armies can no longer subsist on captured land. Maybe you can scrounge up a little food, but munitions, fuel and spare parts? Not so much.

>>31367994
The best case "victory conditions" being proposed by vatniks are to basically give Europe a black eye with nukes while simultaneously being completed annihilated themselves. They're delusional and jealous due to their Africa tier living standards and that makes them dangerous but not worthy of consideration as a legitimate player in world affairs.

>>31373409
If Russia fires nukes then everyone die.

Europe would be in a smoking crater though, due to the geography and size.

>>31373399
> but munitions, fuel and spare parts?
What are army bases? Fuel depots and gas stations? Refineries and industrial factories?
Are you a fucking idiot?

>>31373287
>Missiles have pylon life. For routine intercepts an R-27 would do.
When the AIM-120 came into service the AIM-7 hot ditched within a couple of years. Russia stuck to the R-27 long after the R-77 became available and outside sporadic flights in Syria the R-27 is all we ever see. Even in Syria the R-27 seems to be the mainstay of the RuAF.

>they only need a fraction of the total Western MD's aircraft strength to enforce air superiority over the Baltic

In the baltic russia would have to contend with Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Poland and Germany even after they subjugate the Baltics.
Individually they might not stand alone against russia but as a whole they have more and better fighters than the entire russian western MD.
Germany operates HARM which is a serious threat to any air defense.

>All can be armed with Meteors now, instead of a handful of Gripens?

Aside from Gripen, the Rafale and Eurofighters has done live firing tests and are in the final stages of entering operational service.
The EF 2000 with Meteors spells doom for any plane russia have in the foreseeable future.

>>31373399
>Maybe you can scrounge up a little food
Supermarkets, food banks, distribution centers, and farms exist in Europe.

>>31373409
>The best case "victory conditions" being proposed by vatniks are to basically give Europe a black eye with nukes while simultaneously being completed annihilated themselves.
Reading comprehension on this dumbass is broken, I want it replaced.

>They're delusional and jealous due to their Africa tier living standards
Projecting.this.hard.

>that makes them dangerous but not worthy of consideration as a legitimate player in world affairs.
Obama, please.

Europe stands no chance without our support. I'm so disgusted that people think these Euros can even actually fight. They barely fund their militaries because they have to pay for their refugees and humanitarian shit like the liberal shits that they are.

>>31373368
>Belgium's GDP is almost 3 times more than Russia's.
why lie on the internet?

>>31373341
I'm pretty sure only Britain runs mostly modern air defense destroyers. Many other Euro nations are still using vessels with the SM-1.

>>31373361
Ukraine is a good example of how inept Russia really is. They can't even subdue a neighboring country ravaged by oligarchic corruption, 60+ years of mismanagement and 70s Soviet military equipment. They felt threatened by that very country simply imagining becoming part of the EU one day so much that they saw the need to invade and have been stuck in a quagmire there ever since.

Btw I know of another war were one side believed the others were just too soft for war and no match for their own superhuman soldiers but then ultimately got crushed by their economic and demographic might. Can you guess what war it was?

>>31373483
Dude, you realize they don't need Ukraine right?

Just Crimea.

>>31373441
You won't find much ammunition or spare parts for Russian weapons and equipment in most of Europe, even if you did manage to capture army bases that hadn't been emptied of most equipment. Gas stations will soon run dry and fuel depots are very easy to deny to the enemy as you retreat. You can't just capture an automobile factory and tell them to start making road wheels for Russian tanks. It's not how modern industry works.

>>31373483
>>31373483
How is it an example? They conquered a huge chunk of it in a day, they're fueling an insurgency in a large portion of it, and they blew the fuck out of the Ukrainian army in a pitched battle without air support and without using most of their troops from the southern or whatever military district is connected to Ukraine.
And even during the conflict, there have been no confirmation from our side (NATO) of the entire Russian military pouring into Ukraine from Russia.
>quagmire
It's a quagmire they want. No nation can join NATO if they are in a war or have an ongoing conflict. This is what has prevented Georgia from getting into NATO (South Ossetia and that other coastal place). That is what's called a the frozen conflict strategy from Moscow. So long as Donetsk remains belligerent, Ukraine can never be in NATO.

>>31373485
You should watch less RT. The reason for the invasion was the threat of a Euromaidan in Moscow.

>>31373502
>How is it an example?
Force ratio? Results? Are you dumb?

>>31373505
Oh please.

Crimea has one of their Black sea ports.

>>31373508
and?

>>31373507
Huh?
Tell me what Ukraine has done to Russia in this conflict? Absolutely nothing.

They lost Crimea in a day.
They can't enforce any control in Donetsk or their border with Russia.
They lost a pitched battle with Russians without air support.
Their government is currently collapsing because of infighting.
European people (via referendums and symbolic votes) are, for some odd reason, starting to turn against Ukraine and want Russian trade again.
Ukraine can't join NATO because of Donetsk.

>>31373520
If Ukraine becomes part of NATO and in the future suddenly decides to not renew the lease, Russia can't bully it anymore to renew that lease in the future, because it is essentially protected by our nuclear umbrella.
You don't have to be Kissinger to see why the Russians invaded Crimea almost immediately.

>>31373521
They can't even subdue a neighboring country ravaged by oligarchic corruption, 60+ years of mismanagement and 70s Soviet military equipment. They felt threatened by that very country simply imagining becoming part of the EU one day so much that they saw the need to invade and have been stuck in a quagmire there ever since.

>NATO
Watch less RT, bro.
Joining NATO was never on the Ukrainian agenda until the Russian invasion. It was literally never an issue. What was on the agenda was the EU association agreement.

>>31369300
>its more like a drunk red bear now
Excuse me, but only the trashy red bears get drunk. Proper red bears huff jet fuel.

https://gizmodo.com/5993796/russian-bears-are-hooked-on-huffing-jet-fuel-until-they-pass-out

>>31373444
>When the AIM-120 came into service the AIM-7 hot ditched within a couple of years. Russia stuck to the R-27 long after the R-77 became available and outside sporadic flights in Syria the R-27 is all we ever see. Even in Syria the R-27 seems to be the mainstay of the RuAF.
Just like with PGMs, the Russians prefer to stockpile the newer stuff for the real war and deplete old munitions in practice conflicts.

>In the baltic russia would have to contend with Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Poland and Germany even after they subjugate the Baltics.
>Individually they might not stand alone against russia but as a whole they have more and better fighters than the entire russian western MD.
You do realize there is a hard cap on the amount of aircrafts that can attend the Battle over the Baltic right? Especially when airbases get bombed to bits from cruise missile spams, and last I checked Euro airbases are not under IADS umbrellas. Plus, the Russian fighters are going to be operating with all their force multipliers in the field, heck the ground based radars illuminating the skies over the baltic means the Russian fighters don't even need to radiate, and more importantly they can designate for the long range missiles.

>Germany operates HARM which is a serious threat to any air defense.
So serious they fired off 1000 HARMs in Serbia and most of those missed. And that's with use of dedicated Wild Weasel Growlers.

>The EF 2000 with Meteors spells doom for any plane russia have in the foreseeable future.
oohhh. scary. wunderwaffes, not tactics and equipment can be implemented that counter those right? I mean for instance if you are insisting on playing the range game I could just have my fighters designate for the big bad 400 km missile on the ground below, that easily dwarfs the fuck out of the dinky Meteor's NEZ.

>>31373529
>NATO
Nobody in Ukraine cared about NATO. Stop watching RT. You parroting Russian propaganda, dude.

>>31373532
...they don't need to subdue that country?

Like holy shit, we are arguing in circle here.

>>31373538
What's with the butthurt hohol?

Ukraine has something belonging to Russia, so they come and get it.

Ukraine fails to get it back.

>>31373532
>>31373483
>They can't even subdue a neighboring country ravaged by oligarchic corruption, 60+ years of mismanagement and 70s Soviet military equipment.
Are you high? They wouldn't subdue it because its exactlly as you described it, a dumpster fire. Let Kiev sort its own shit out.

>>31373549
>hohol
spotted the retard

>>31373541
>...they don't need to subdue that country?
It's beyond their capacity to do so.

>>31373532
>They can't even subdue a neighboring country
You don't need to invade a country to subdue it. Georgia is completely subdued and the Russians didn't need to invade it nor topple its government. All they need is to keep a frozen conflict going on and Ukraine can never be part of NATO.
Also, the very point of Ukraine is as a buffer state like Belarus and the the Central Asian states are.
>bro
Fuck off.
>Joining NATO was never on the Ukrainian agenda until the Russian invasion. It was literally never an issue.
The Russians have no idea whether it will or it won't. Especially after the Baltics went full NATO and EU after the breakup of the Soviet Union. It's a realpolitik risk that is not wise to make.

>>31373559
Yes, and they don't need to do that either.

>>31373550
>They wouldn't subdue it because its exactlly as you described it, a dumpster fire.
You do realize that it's still seen as rightful Russian clay, right? That the division between Russia and Ukraine is seen as artificial and as induced by Western subversion?

>>31373483
>Btw I know of another war were one side believed the others were just too soft for war and no match for their own superhuman soldiers but then ultimately got crushed by their economic and demographic might. Can you guess what war it was?
There won't be, and there hasn't been any total war of attrition between nuclear powers precisely because nukes exist.

>>31373566
>All they need is to keep a frozen conflict going on and Ukraine can never be part of NATO.
You record is broken

>>31373538
>Nobody in Ukraine cared about NATO.
Yeah, and the Baltics were not supposed to be part of NATO.

>>31373567
>Yes
That's the point

>>31368318
>guy who gets bullied by someone named Nigel
>put him in charge of military

Spotted the Russian spy

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>>31372875
>Have you missed the burning hate pretty much all of eastern Europe has for russia?
Nigger what?

>>31373569
>There won't be, and there hasn't been any total war of attrition between nuclear powers precisely because nukes exist.
Which makes OP's scenario a rather pointless excercise of academic arguing. But surely you were never doing that, were you? You talk only about real stuff, right?

This board has fatnik, they are above reality at this point.

>>31373572
Because it is realpolitik at play. EU is almost synonymous to being part of NATO. The Baltics turned into NATO countries. There is no assurance that Ukraine will never become a NATO country if it moves pro-EU. Which it was about to.
>>31373568
But Putin is not a retard. The point of the breakup of the Soviet Union is to create as much distance as possible from Europe to Russia. Taking over Ukraine is counterproductive to that shit.

>>31373574
>not supposed to
You mean from the POV of Russia?

>>31367994
Russia's best chance would be to overwhelm Eastern Europe and Germany before Western Europe can mount a coherant defense.

If the Europeans retreat in good order and form a defensive line near the Oder or even the Elbe Rivers with another line on the mountainous Austro-Italian border, then they could probably hold. The shorter front would allow the Europeans to use there manpower advantage, and the distance could strain Russian supply lines.

Given time Western Europe would complete economic mobilization and, with superior industrial capabity, be able to produce more material than the Russians and win a war of attrition.

Lastly given the economic relations between the EU and US, regardless of NATO intervention or not the US would be either lending material aid to Europe or outright enter the war.

>>31373579
>implying Nigel shouldn't be knighted by the Queen for delivering their kingdom from complete destruction caused by dumbass libs who want to turn the UK into a non-Brit country

>>31373589
>Which it was about to.
Nope. It was about preventing a Euromaidan in Moscow. Nothing to do with NATO at all. Nukes on both sides prevent any military escalation so there's no threat from either side. NATO was a non-issue. It just served as a useful propaganda tool. With quite some success as can be seen here.

>>31373591
Yeah. If Germany falls, there is simply no way the Russians can lose the war. Most of Europe's industrial capacity is in Germany.

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>>31373119
>>31373131
I don't think you understand how massive Russia is

>>31373602
>it's one thing or the other
What you said is true, but so is what I said. Putin hit several birds with a shotgun. That's it. There are short-term and long-term strategic goals that had to be secured. They secured them.

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>>31367994

>Without NATO support, could an EU military defend against a Russian invasion?

Probably not, the difference in amount of materiel is just THAT big.

But you have to look at it this way - if EU countries knew that there would be no support from NATO, they would increase their military spending accordingly.

What exists now is defined by conditions of "now", too. Same goes for Russia, they would not worry that much if NATO wasn't present in Europe - but it is.

>>31373611
He was most likely talking about population centers and stuff.

>>31373568
>You do realize that it's still seen as rightful Russian clay, right?
>Russian iceberg.jpg
The Russians are also seen as the big brother to all Slavic nations and they didn't lift much when Yugoslavia was getting bombed to bits. They don't give a fuck for land and natural resources- they have more of those than anybody else. What they did in Ukraine was as much of a message to NATO not one further step East as it was for protecting the pro-Russian(now formally Russian) population and strategic infrastructure in Crimea.
>>31373582
>Which makes OP's scenario a rather pointless excercise of academic arguing
No it isn't. Invading Europe is still very much in cards especially since not everyone in Europe is a nuke power and the ones(one) who are/is historically does not give much of a fuck in a conventional brawl across the Northern European plain provided it doesn't go into full own nuke exchanges and the agressor doesn't push into its borders.

>>31373589
>But Putin is not a retard.
Actually he is. He's a mildly proficient tactician. But a woeful strategist. If you just think about it: prior to the invasion of Ukraine these two nations really could be called brother nations. The bond between them was stronger than that of any other two. Prior to the invasion the notion that Ukraine isn't really a state and that Ukranians aren't really a poeple of their own but Russians in disguise had actual merit.
He squandered all of that because of a combination of KGB paranoia and a real weakness of the Russian state. This invasion was a huge strategic blunder. Putin has effectively become the midwife of a true Ukrainian nation as much as Napoleon III was for Germany.

>>31373537
>Just like with PGMs, the Russians prefer to stockpile the newer stuff for the real war and deplete old munitions in practice conflicts.
Missiles are not expended on routine escorts missions.
The R-77s first entered service in 1994, any missile procured back then is near the end of their shelf life, despite this russia has never had them in the air.

>You do realize there is a hard cap on the amount of aircrafts that can attend the Battle over the Baltic right?

All this means is that EU forces will have a much higher availability rate

>Especially when airbases get bombed to bits from cruise missile spams, and last I checked Euro airbases are not under IADS umbrellas.

Check harder. NATO IADS, patriots, RBS 23, RBS 70&90, Nächstbereichschutzsystem MANTIS, Gepard FlakPanzer, LvKv90 and a myriad of other systems are networked and able to deal with cruise missiles.
Given that LO cruise missiles are in EU service, russia would suffer the same problem in any case.

>So serious they fired off 1000 HARMs in Serbia and most of those missed. And that's with use of dedicated Wild Weasel Growlers

It also left Yugo air defenses more or less neutered. It only got like 3 kills while nato reigned supreme in the sky.

>wunderwaffes

Like russias Maginot Line of S400 and pantsir?
EU is well capable of defending itself.

>>31373624
If the Russians let a pro-EU Ukraine exist, that would destroy its position in Crimea and its farmlands in the Caucasus.

It is better to destroy them now than to let them be a pain later. Not saying that's moral, but basing your foreign policy on "we're bros" is the dumbest thing ever, especially since Putin's what, 70 years old or something? He ain't gonna live forever.

>>31373616
This. Europe's military readiness isn't really that ready.

>>31373618
>The Russians are also seen as the big brother to all Slavic nations and they didn't lift much when Yugoslavia was getting bombed to bits.
Wanting to and being able to are two different things. Which leads us back to the comparison of economic might between Russia and the EU.

>NATO
nope. Already explained it.

>>31373617
And probably how most of them are in European Russia. Didn't the Russians recently promote giving away land in Siberia for settlers?

>>31373117
Well debatably Chechnya, but I think the anon was talking about Tatarstan.

The thing is Russia actually does have a fair few ""Islamic"" republics, but in reality is basically just where all the Tartars (historically Muslim Turks) ended up. They are Muslim, but calling them Islamic is a tad disingenuous since it gives the impression of the Middle Eastern shit-holes we've come to love,. Additionally, saying Russia is pro-Islam is also disingenuous because we're about as 'pro-Islam' as the US is (discounting this election cycle).

>>31373568
>You do realize that it's still seen as rightful Russian clay, right?
By Russians, who are nearly as big geokleptomaniacs as the Chinese.

>>31373645
>If the Russians let a pro-EU Ukraine exist, that would destroy its position in Crimea and its farmlands in the Caucasus.
Squandering the real possibility of reacquiring all of Ukraine due to the bond is not the only result of Putin's strategic blunder. The other thing is Russia's overall strategic position: it is essentially squeezed between China and the EU who are each vastly more powerful in economy, demographics and a whole lot of other indicators. The reasonable strategy in this position would be to constantly tilt from one side to the other to get concessions from the opposite side. Now that Putin has affronted the EU he robbed himself of that option. The strategic prospect of Russia is now solely being a junior partner of China, being their gas station essentially. Which is why this stupid policy will end as soon as Putin is no longer in power.

>>31373627
>Missiles are not expended on routine escorts missions.
They have frame life on pylons eaten up over the hours spent in the air.

>All this means is that EU forces will have a much higher availability rate
Not when airbases are craters they aren't.

>>31373627
>NATO IADS
doesn't exist, or rather is pitiable compared to Chinese and Russian one.
>patriots
Only Germany has them in 4 locations. wow.

>RBS 23, RBS 70&90
MANPADs for cruise missile interception are you for real?

>Nächstbereichschutzsystem MANTIS, Gepard FlakPanzer, LvKv90
Very short range gun-based systems. Shit against very small and fast targets especially at the edge of their engagement envelope, and the targets they are guarding are physically bigger than the covered area by these systems, leaving lots of gaps for the enemy to exploit. There's also the funny thing with shells spraying all over the place you are supposed to be protecting when these things are in operation.

>LO cruise missiles are in EU service
Their stealth (all stealthy cruise missiles) is good for avoiding detection from early detection radars mostly in conjunction with noe flying, not intended against a head on approach with a very powerful search radar where its increasing proximity only allows said radar to eventually recieve enough reflected radiation for engagement.

>It also left Yugo air defenses more or less neutered.
They weren't aiming for kills but rather to disrupt the concerted NATO bombing efforts of the ground forces. Only a few dozen out of thousands of equipment got whacked and similarly few dozen got killed from the bombing strikes directly, so they very much succeeded here.

>Like russias Maginot Line of S400 and pantsir?
Hey if it works, it works. And damn well the combo works if it made the F-35 the price of admission rather than a superpower's luxury.

>EU is well capable of defending itself.
You can't even enforce your borders from hordes of unwashed sandniggers and actual niggers...

>>31373700
By the Siloviki ans their ideological counterparts in Russian academia and cultural life.

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>>31373611
>Gall-Peters projection

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>>31373617
>>31373663
Forgive the shitty edit, but look at these maps. To nuke the 'population centers', you'd basically have to nuke 2/3s of everything up to the Urals. (Since after all the VAST majority of Russia's population is in the European part of Russia.)

That's a HUGE amount of land you'd have to nuke.

>>31373660
>Which leads us back to the comparison of economic might between Russia and the EU.
Economic might doesn't matter since there won't be a total war of attrition.
>>31373624
>If you just think about it: prior to the invasion of Ukraine these two nations really could be called brother nations
So brotherly they routinely steal gas from the pipelines so much so there isn't even enough pressure at the other end to service the paying European customers and that is on top of lavish discounts and loans. That they promote the idealogies the Russians and their grandads fought against, and attempted to remove presence of Russian culture and language.
>>31373713
>Squandering the real possibility of reacquiring all of Ukraine due to the bond is not the only result of Putin's strategic blunder.
There never was a possibility of acquiring all of Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine would certainly be amenable to rejoining Russia but the Western part would fight tooth and nail to prevent such a thing with them. For humanitarian purposes, carving up Ukraine into the two halves representing their diverging and contradicting cultures make rather more sense. Alas, that would then mean the Western Ukraine becomes free to host NATO bases on its soil and even join NATO which is for the leadership in Moscow, unacceptable.

>>31368796

If you mean Ceuta and Melilla that is just normal, they're much closer to Morocco than Spain so exchange is unavoidable.

If you mean Andalucia, its more about being a zone full of socialist cucks(it's where they're more concentrated, even more than Madrid or Barcelona) and the lowest classes that makes it easier for inmigrants to live.

Either way, spain has far less kebab than France or England or even Italy.

>>31373750
>2016
>Using Eurocentric maps
kys cis-lord

>>31373713
> reacquiring all of Ukraine
The point of the breakup of the Soviet Union is to create as much distance as possible from Europe to Russia. Taking over Ukraine is counterproductive to that shit.

Russia has always been a fucking gas station. That's why it is fostering links with India, another country with 1.5 billion people and Japan for natural gas. Also, are you saying that being a dog of Europe who wants Russia to be "democratic" is somehow better than being a dog of China who doesn't care if they're dealing with dictators or democracies?
And no, right now, there is an upswing in EU countries that want to stop sanctions against Russia. Iran didn't fall after being sanctioned from the world for over 30 years. Their leaders are still in power.

You haven't really thought about this at all.

>>31373761
>Economic might doesn't matter since there won't be a total war of attrition.
You do realize that you're posting in a thread about a hypothetical scenario, yes?

>>31373766
Why the heck does Spain even keep those cities even now? Aren't they just problematic to own with all the people rushing into them all the time?

>>31373471

French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, German and Danish vessels all use Aster or SM-2.

>>31373761
>So brotherly they routinely steal gas from the pipelines so much so there isn't even enough pressure at the other end to service the paying European customers and that is on top of lavish discounts and loans.
You mean so poor that they gladly would have thrown themselves into the arms of Russia for the economic prospects. But this was prior to the invasion. That is now gone.

>>31373797
>You do realize that you're posting in a thread about a hypothetical scenario, yes?
And the logical progression for a losing side in a total war of attrition is to fire the nukes to tip the scales, which would invite escalation, which then leads to... What? you can't separate nukes from the equation even accounting for the delusion in making a war of attrition even possible in the first place. What is this SB?

>>31368770
>Lead-Lease returns
>This time, to Russia and satellite countries only
>Russians flying Cobras and A-10's
>Russia still get halted by the remainder of the EU
>USA comes in in the closing months of the war, easily clubbing the remainder of the EU miltary
>NATO gone forever
>NPTO rises
>Trump and Putin share a few cigars together, looking emotionally weighed down, yet hopeful for the future

A man can dream.

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>>31373302

Poland was fucking Russia in the ass for centuries until Germans and Austrians decided to help. Remember how they took Moscow and ravaged it as they liked?

Remember 1920?

Acting like russia is some amazing superpower that could steamroll Poland and rest of E.Europe only shows that you are a pathetic Vatnik potato.

When was the last time Russia won a war by itself? Hitler would turn you all into soap if not for the West. You got fucked by Poland that just appeared on the map for the first time in 100 years. You got fucked by Finland, a country with the population of a large city. You got fucked by Japan. You got fucked by shitty muslim rebels. Russia is a fucking laughingstock.

>>31373761
>There never was a possibility of acquiring all of Ukraine.
Oh yes there really was.

>Eastern Ukraine would certainly be amenable to rejoining Russia but the Western part would fight tooth and nail to prevent such a thing with them.
They ARE fighting tooth and nail, because Russia uses force. Using force against such a benevolent neighbor was the stupidest thing Putin ever did, perhaps the stupidest thing any leader of any relevant country did in the last 70 years. Russia has permanently lost Ukraine forever, including the East, whereas before they had a real possibility of reacquiring it, including the West.

>>31373812
>You mean so poor that they gladly would have thrown themselves
They didn't, no matter how much cold hard cash the Russians waved around their faces. Yanu was straddling two chairs at the very end, which is all the more hilarious when the reason he was removed from power by the maidan was his non-ratification of the economic agreement in favor of Europe over Russia(that wouldve shafted the Russians since they have a customs free border with Ukraine, imagine that), also repeated itself with poro 1 year later. The Ukrainians only really have themselves to blame for this one.

>>31373803
The newer ones do yes. The older vessels (which still make up the majority of many Euro fleets) are still firing the SM-1 off the MK 13 arm launcher.

>>31373787
>The point of the breakup of the Soviet Union is to create as much distance as possible from Europe to Russia. Taking over Ukraine is counterproductive to that shit.
Putin is a revisionist. He has personally called the breakup of the Soviet Union the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.
so...:
>You haven't really thought about this at all.

>Also, are you saying that being a dog of Europe who wants Russia to be "democratic" is somehow better than being a dog of China who doesn't care if they're dealing with dictators or democracies?
Which part of "tilting between the two to get concessions from the opposite side" didn't you understand?

>>31373844

This so much. I love how /pol/ retards act like if Putin was some genius when in reality he lost Ukraine like a retarded baby throwing a tantrum.

He had good relations with the west. He was making shitloads of money trading with the West. West was even willing to cooperate with Russian army and sell them weapons.

He ruined all of that over some bullshit "NATO on our borders" fears.

Russia is 110 millions inhabitants, the EU is 550 millions. Russia has no economy to speak off apart of selling gas, wood and charcoal. The EU is the word's largest economy. Increase military spendings to 5% would give it the same military budget as the USA. The EU has some of the best universities and exports high-tech around the globe. Russia exports hookers and cheap guns.

>>31373891
>The EU is the word's largest economy.

Not once Britain leaves.

>>31373834
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypothetical
come back when you understand the meaning of the word

>>31373887
He never had Ukraine in the first place.

Jesus.

>>31373886
>He has personally called the breakup of the Soviet Union the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century
And he said it was a catastrophe because millions of Russians found themselves outside of Russia in one moment. Nothing there says he wants to reclaim Soviet territory. He also said that who ever wanted the Soviet Union back lacks a brain.

>>31373891
Russia is the 2nd largest exporter of weapons in the world right?

>>31373842
Oh, I really hit the sad wittle polish nationalist's nerve from my last post. muhahahaha

>Poland was fucking Russia in the ass for centuries until Germans and Austrians decided to help. Remember how they took Moscow and ravaged it as they liked?
>Remember 1920?
typical. you focus at the past because its only there that you are better off; presently you are shit.

>Acting like russia is some amazing superpower that could steamroll Poland and rest of E.Europe only shows that you are a pathetic Vatnik potato.
Its not acting when its real. poland and e. europe are really at the mercy of US and partly Western Europe for their continuing independence, so shut up and say thanks to your masters instead of trying to join the big boys when they are talking.

>When was the last time Russia won a war by itself?
Georgia, sweet Georgia comes to mind.

>Hitler would turn you all into soap if not for the West.
And he wouldn't have done the same to you? hahahahaha this delusional wannabe aryan faggot. You owe the Russians directly for your continued existence jackass.

>You got fucked by Poland that just appeared on the map for the first time in 100 years.
Jesus christ, I'm calling OSHA, those toilet cleaner agent fumes are really getting to your brain.

>You got fucked by Finland, a country with the population of a large city. You got fucked by Japan. You got fucked by shitty muslim rebels. Russia is a fucking laughingstock.
Meanwhile you yourselves are getting cucked by Western Europe who you look down to as cucks. Oh boy, how bad is it to owe everything to the very cucks you despise.

>>31373887
To be fair to little Putin, he may have fucked over Russia, but his position as ruler has never been more secure.

>>31373865

EU army was neglected for a long time because it looked like there will be nothing to fight.

Now Putin gave them all a reason to give $ to the army again. It's already happening all over the continent.

Poland alone is buying next gen missile defense system and SAM systems. They also plan to buy 64 next gen fighters (most likely F-35) and hundreds of Leopards 2 while updating all leos they already have to A6 standards.

In few years they will be strong enough to repel Russian invasion by themselves. I'd love to see 2.5k T-72's supported by 50 T-14 try to quickly get through 1000 leopards.

And in reality the entire world in pumping money into military again. There are tensions everywhere.

When all those nations with GDP many times higher than Russia start investing in the army Putin will be left behind.

No to mention that Russian army has to defend the largest country on the planet, larger than some continents. They could never concentrate all their forces in one place. Not when they have border issues with almost all neighbors in the East.

>>31373934
Largest actually.

>>31373844
>benevolent neighbor
>they overthrew a Russian backed leader in the hopes of joining the EU
Russia also conquered Crimea forever and because of Donetsk, it will never be part of NATO forever. Honestly, I think that's what they wanted all along.

>>31373840
Truly delusional. Shit like this always makes me cringe hard.

>>31373956
>largest
Nobody's larger than America in the world's arms market. Sorry, man. We number 1.

>>31373844
>Using force against such a benevolent neighbor
There is nothing benevolent about the maidan ffs.
>>31373891
Hi Mr. President.
>Russia exports hookers and cheap guns.
Don't forget the finest quality butthurt that amerisharts and poles can't seem to get enough off. Maybe they could expand into exporting butthurt creams as well that should start a pharma revolution there.

>>31373900
actually correct answer.
britains GDP is 2.5 trillion
GDP of eu is 19.2 trillion
GDP of USA is 16.77
So once britain leaves eu is down to 16.7 just barely under USA.
but the other guys point is still valid. Russia's economy is shit. They would lose hard. Not thinking of nukes and shit of course.

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>>31373944

Oh boy, the triggered potato is here.

I love how the only "victory" Russia can brag about is against a country with less than 4 million populace. And even then your army became a laughingstock of all military experts on the planet.

Can't wait when Putin actually goes full retard and attacks EU. Poles alone will rape you fags like in 1920. Accompanied with the entire world laughing their asses off.

You can't take one city in Ukraine for months and you want to attack Europe.

>>31373956
Numbers i've found place Russia at 27% of the market and the US at 31%.

>>31373887
I agree with your overall point, but...

>He ruined all of that over some bullshit "NATO on our borders" fears.
They WERE doing a bunch of exercises on Russian borders, while not in NATO countries to boot (which justified or not is still saber rattling), and we DID promise Russia that NATO wouldn't expand past Germany.

>inb4 'that's bullshit, when?'

Henscher and Gorbachev both say so, and here's a quote from Matlock.

"We gave categorical assurances to Gorbachev back when the Soviet Union existed that if a united Germany was able to stay in NATO, NATO would not be moved eastward."

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>>31373956

Ha ha, no.

>>31373978
>You can't take one city in Ukraine for months
They took all of Crimea matey, pretty easily too

>>31374015

Crimea wasn't fighting back and had a Russian military base from the start.

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>>31373891
Pretty much this. The EU doesn't have the same level of military investment as Russia or the United States given they weren't trust into any massive war lately but, were they to get into a large conflict (or even just the threat of one), they would most likely produce enough equipment and enlist enough soldiers to easily outdo the Ruskis on any front.

>>31373950
>EU army was neglected for a long time because it looked like there will be nothing to fight.
BS I thought they were fighting the good fight for higher standards of living even to theirs for refugees.

>Poland alone is buying next gen missile defense system and SAM systems.
The Patriot they are buying is old shit.

>hey also plan to buy 64 next gen fighters
nope. They can't even afford their current fleet.

>hundreds of Leopards 2
Where would they buy them for cheap? Germany isn't selling anymore.

>updating all leos they already have to A6 standards.
The sensors are woefully inferior to the A6 along with the nonexistent C&C equipment and unupgraded hull armor so no.

>I'd love to see 2.5k T-72's supported by 50 T-14 try to quickly get through 1000 leopards.
More like 2.5k T-14s alone by 2025 and halve the Leopard numbers

>When all those nations with GDP many times higher than Russia start investing in the army Putin will be left behind.
Its not like the Russians don't have experience with mobilizing the economy towards the military amiright?

>Not when they have border issues with almost all neighbors in the East.
They settled the exact border delimitations with China actually, and only butthurt Japan is left with pursuing claims voided by losing the war.

>>31374025
>They couldn't even take a single city!
>They literally took an entire peninsula
>That doesn't count, they didn't fight back
Bitch please

>>31374050
But anon, that's a pretty valid point. It's impossible to talk about their military muscles in Crimea if they didn't use them at all.

>>31373978
>I love how the only "victory" Russia can brag about is against a country with less than 4 million populace.
As if total population matters when they haven't even mobilized 1% of that.

>And even then your army became a laughingstock of all military experts on the planet.
Only in your sad, sad, janitor's closet
meanwhile pooland's military is so shit the whole report has to be [redacted].
http://www.janes.com/article/59395/polish-military-readiness-criticised-in-audit-says-report

>Poles alone will rape you fags like in 1920
jesus christ mate. the fumes are that bad?

>You can't take one city in Ukraine for months and you want to attack Europe.
Donetsk and Lugansk and Sevastopol doesn't ring any bells. And btw, love the gall on this one for speaking on behalf of Western Europe when all his country did was sponge off.

>>31368882

we got fucking Leonidas over here

>>31374067
>But anon, that's a pretty valid point. It's impossible to talk about their military muscles in Crimea if they didn't use them at all.
The best weapon is the one that isn't fired at all in anger, yet achieves its user's objective. detterence. Or the kind of war Sun Tzu fetishizes about.

>>31373962
I'm not delusional you fuckheaded faggot, I know it won't actually happen.

>>31374095
But if that's the case then you're talking about Russia's political influence, not objectively about their military.

>>31374041
>>31374083

Does shitposting for Kremlin earn you enough rubles to eat something other than potatoes?

>>31374102
The military is really the extension of the politican's will made to physically impose on his enemies.

>>31373860
>Yanu was straddling two chairs at the very end
He wasn't. He was pro European before 2014, even helped to negotiate the EU-association agreement ready for signing. Then in mid 2013 came the shift in Russia's policy towards Ukraine and the EU, most notable in the economic warfare of Russia against Ukraine and also in the change of language. It was this time when in Russian television "Evropa" became "Gayropa" and when Putin stopped refering to events "in" Ukraine and started speaking about events "on" Ukraine, as if it wasn't a country but just the name for a territory on the map.

The smart thing to do would have been to analyze the true motivation of Ukrainians for this association agreement, which was just a way to force its own government to become less corrupt by trying to adhere to European standards. This motovation could easily have been exploited by offering the alternative of a seemingly orderly Russia. Granted, Russia itself is a corrupt shithole, but the oligarchy in in the hands of the state, not the other way round like in Ukraine. Plus, the Russian propaganda is really good as hiding Russia's weaknesses and overblowing its strengths.

Putin didn't do this. He decided for confrontation with Ukraine and the EU. Stupid bugger. He prepared the invasion of Crimea and then blackmailed Yanu in November 2013 into turning against the protesters by threatening to annex Crimea. Yanu was never straddling two chairs. He just moved from one seat to the other completely. And neither he nor Putin realized how stupid the tactic of antagonization was. The protesters held out. The police forces beat them up, which only increased the number of protesters. And finally Yanu used deadly force at which point the Ukrainian revolution took place and lead to his ousting.

>>31374041
>The Patriot they are buying is old shit.

They are buying PAC-3, the same missile MEADS uses, with completely new electronics and radars.

>in favor of Europe over Russia(that wouldve shafted the Russians since they have a customs free border with Ukraine, imagine that)
This is a Russian propaganda lie which only appeared AFTER the Euromaidan as an ex post pseudo justification for intervention, invasion and annexation. To mask as Russian reaction what was in truth an action carefully planned in advance.
The reality is that the EU offered Russia several times during the whole negotiation process with Ukraine to take part in the negotiations and voice their concerns if any. The answer by Russia was always the same: no interest. Trade of EU goods via Ukraine was never an issue for Russia. The motivation has to be sought in the personal beliefs of Vladimir Putin who sees the color revolutions as the work of Western intelligence services and also knows about the weakness of Russia since the democratic protests by the Russian middle class in 2011/12. He feared a second Euromaidan on the Red Square.

This fear and paranoia was btw also the reason he recently threw out Ivanov and is still rearranging lots of positions in the Kremlin. It was after the attempted coup in Turkey that he undertook this. He feared in Russia might happen the same and that Western intelligence services are behind it all. Soon all experienced guys will be far away from the levers of power in Russia and only young, loyal but inexperienced guys as replacement. Which means Russia will go down the drain further.

>>31374111
No, it doesn't. Its all for the satisfaction of making you seethe in your chair, shedding tears and quaking from impotent rage. Which, judging from your increasingly knee-jerky replies is happening very, very well.

>>31373928
He doesn't want the SU back as a political entity. But the clay, the power and the influence that went with it. Hence his "Eurasian Union". But since the invasion of Ukraine several of his formerly most loyal lackeys like Kazakhstan and Belarus have since taken pains to emphasize that the Eurasian Union will be a purely economic union, nothing more, when prior to that it was meant to be much more.

>>31368490
Armenian Genocide

>>31372390
>Russia circulated over 100,000 troops and 75,000 internal troops through the N. Causcas military district 02-12

Keep in mind those soldiers are ~50 years old now.

>>31374117
>which was just a way to force its own government to become less corrupt by trying to adhere to European standards.
Then they are gullible an naive as fuck. You don't get less corrupt by introducing additional red tape and bureaucracy.

>turning against the protesters by threatening to annex Crimea.
now you are just plain inventing shit

>And finally Yanu used deadly force at which point the Ukrainian revolution took place and lead to his ousting.
jesus christ dozens of Berkut were shot and several were even killed before yanu gave the order to go hard. stop lying
>>31374128
>This is a Russian propaganda lie which only appeared AFTER
Anyone who knew of the arrangements between Russia and Ukraine knew this would've happened. Its was a thing well before the fact.

>Trade of EU goods via Ukraine was never an issue for Russia.
Are you fucking high? Ukrainian goods were able to be traded across the Russian border with zero to minimal tariffs what would happen if suddenly Ukraine has surplus of European goods?

>The motivation has to be sought in the personal beliefs of Vladimir Putin who sees the color revolutions as the work of Western intelligence services and also knows about the weakness of Russia since the democratic protests by the Russian middle class in 2011/12.
lot of mental gymnastics from trading of goods to color revolutions.

>his fear and paranoia was btw also the reason he recently threw out Ivanov and is still rearranging lots of positions in the Kremlin
>He doesn't know the security council membership for the remained stable as did government posts for the most part.

>Soon all experienced guys will be far away from the levers of power in Russia and only young, loyal but inexperienced guys as replacement.
Which is why we are totally seeing an outpouting of 30-40 year old suits in power right?

>Which means Russia will go down the drain further.
Oh everyone's heading there. Only the west is being flushed at twice the speed, and they wheee

>>31373945
Same could have been said for Hitler, until the very end. What that meant for Germany is another story.

>>31373957
>conquered Crimea forever
That's what they thought about the Baltics at the end of WWII. If the Ukrainians don't fuck up, Crimea will go back to Ukraine in due time.

>>31373966
Russia doesn't have the production capabilities to make that much butthurt cream.

>>31373966
>There is nothing benevolent about the maidan ffs.
The decision of Putin to antagonize Ukraine and EU came a lot sooner than the Maidan. Maidan was a reaction to Yanu's complete 180 in the question of the EU-association agreement after his visit to Moscow in November 2013.

>>31373970
The U.K. hasn't left the EU, yet. And no ones knows exactly when and if it's going to happen.

>>31369480
Bretty much, senpai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey

>>31373994
>They WERE doing a bunch of exercises on Russian borders, while not in NATO countries to boot (which justified or not is still saber rattling)
BS. NATO does exercises with brigades, Russia with Corps. There is literally zero provocation from the side of NATO.

>and we DID promise Russia that NATO wouldn't expand past Germany.
Russian propaganda lie.

>Henscher and Gorbachev both say so, and here's a quote from Matlock.
>"We gave categorical assurances to Gorbachev back when the Soviet Union existed that if a united Germany was able to stay in NATO, NATO would not be moved eastward."
Negative. What the West promised and also codified in the 2+4 Treaty was that there would be no permanent NATO presence in East Germany. They simply could not have negotiated about possible NATO memberships of Eastern European countries because at that time these countries were still members of the Warsaw Pact. Christ, the Baltic states didn't even exist back then.
This propaganda lie has been refuted countless times, yet it's being repeated ad nauseam by revisionist losers.

>>31374246
Don't let facts get in the way, it's CIA Arab spring all the way down man!

>>31368315

no nigger.

>>31368490

being fucking roaches dude. they are they worst.

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>>31374197
here's 15 rubles

>>31373865

6 Daring Class, 4 Horizon Class, 4 De Zeven Class, 3 Sachsen Class, 3 Iver Huitfeldt Class and 5 Álvaro de Bazán Class.

Thats 25 modern AAW major escorts all with Aster-30 or SM-2 missiles, all but one with AESA radars and 15 of them with Aegis or an Aegis equivilent. That backed up by superior rotary AEW, fixed wing AEW, multiple carriers for more planes in the air and that even many of the non focused ships like the Duke Class, Fridtjof Nansen Class, FREMM Classes and Absolon Classes have pretty great radars (Some even AESA) with excellent short range missiles like CAMM, ESSM and Aster-15.

If you think that's nothing then you're completely delusional.

>>31373715
>You can't even enforce your borders from hordes of unwashed sandniggers and actual niggers...
because politicians don't want to lose good boy points with the public, plus all the desperate people coming in without knowing all the previous political backstabbing and shit willing to vote anyone that gives them food and money are easy free votes for any party that rides the refugee boat harder

it is also a good thing for extreme left groups that see their boogeyman finally become real and get a popularity boost from that, there's just no interest in stopping sand/niggers from coming in

fucking italy alone managed to intercept most of those coming from north africa for years (to bring them in safely instead of just sinking them sadly) any better geared country could deal with them no problem, if they actually wanted to

>>31373677
I was thinking of Chechnya, or the rise of Chechnya. They're getting powerful

>>31374102
(unused) military might is effectively political influence, nobody cares of your declarations if you don't have the hardware to enforce them just in case

>>31374287
>BS. NATO does exercises with brigades, Russia with Corps. There is literally zero provocation from the side of NATO.
How is NATO taking tens of thousands of troops and shoving them on the borders of Russia not saber rattling?

>Russian propaganda lie.
>Negative
>This propaganda lie has been refuted countless times, yet it's being repeated ad nauseam by revisionist losers.
Are you serious? What part of "We gave categorical assurances to Gorbachev back when the Soviet Union existed that if a united Germany was able to stay in NATO, NATO would not be moved eastward." do you not understand. This isn't some RT shit, this is the Supreme Soviet, the German Foreign Minister, and the US ambassador to the Soviet Union.

I wasn't even trying to argue or anything, but god damn, you didn't just drink the kool-aid, you took a tanker of it, relaxed your throat, and just hosed it down.

>>31374197
>Then they are gullible an naive as fuck.
Debatable. And in any case just a deviation from the original topic, which was the strategic blunder of Valdimir Putin of using force against a most benevolent neighbor and a borther nation with true possibility of unification or Anschluss.

>now you are just plain inventing shit
How do you explain Yanukovych's complete 180 after his november 2013 visit to Moscow? Plus, it's nothing new that Putin requests the use of violence against protesters by Ukranian heads of state and expect obedience. Leonid Kuchma has been quite clear about that. But Putin believes that he was turned by the CIA, too, and that the Orange Revolution was a product of Langley's.

>jesus christ dozens of Berkut were shot and several were even killed before yanu gave the order to go hard. stop lying
They were immediately fleeing for Crimea once they saw they lost. How stupid do you have to be to not see this?

>Anyone who knew of the arrangements between Russia and Ukraine knew this would've happened.
I repeat: the answer by Russia to Europe's offer to take part int he negotiations and voice their concerns if any was always the same: no interest. That's a fact!

>Are you fucking high? Ukrainian goods were able to be traded across the Russian border with zero to minimal tariffs what would happen if suddenly Ukraine has surplus of European goods?
Russia never brought that up prior to the invasion. They just invented it to make it look like they had a reason outside of just gaining clay. They like to talk like they were surprised by the actions and only reacted. But they had planned the annexation all along. The logisitcs preparation for that operation alone must have taken months. And stupid people with no clue about the military believe their lie that they just reacted in the heat of the moment. Christ, the commemoration medals show a date at which Yanukovych was still in power.

>lot of mental gymnastics from trading of goods to color revolutions.
Well, you brought up the trade of goods. Not because you're so original but because you're parroting Russian propaganda because you can't think for yourself. How am I at fault for explaining why you talk stupid bullshit?

>Which is why we are totally seeing an outpouting of 30-40 year old suits in power right?
You don't even follow the news about Russia, do you? You never even noticed the recent change of positions in the Kremlin, did you?

>>31373252
There is no reason to rush into exiting at all.

>>31369421
To be fair, The Soviet-Afghan war was roughly three decades ago, under a now-defunct government and military staff. While you can definitely use that as an example of the failure of the Soviet military, it doesn't hold up so well these days.

The Russian military is beginning to show signs of increased competence with every conflict they step into. The issue now is that conscripts are still too busy raping each other to death and generally creating a culture that isn't conducive to successful military conquest.

There is also the issue of Russia's floundering attempts to modernize their military while their economy and defense industries go further into the shitter.

>>31374452
>How is NATO taking tens of thousands of troops and shoving them on the borders of Russia not saber rattling?
1. It's not tens of thousands. Just thousands.
2. Russia does it with tens of thousands and occasionally with 100k+.
3. Whenever NATO criticizes something that happens on Russian soil, Russia argues they can do on their own soil whatever they want and rebuts criticism of dangerous airspace behaviour with saying all happens in international airpsace. Well, then so can NATO. And, in fact, must! Must do out of prudence, seeing that Russia stationed IRBMs in Kalinigrad. And then Russia has also no point complaining about the radars of the missile defense. It's on NATO soil after all...

You can't complain about sabre rattling when you're doing exercises with ten times as much soldiers and more frequently. I repeat: there is zero provocation by NATO. Everybody who know the numbers can confirm this.

>This isn't some RT shit, this is the Supreme Soviet, the German Foreign Minister, and the US ambassador to the Soviet Union.
LOL It is not. It is revisionist bullshit that took hold ever since Putin's rant at the Munich security conference of 2007. Gorbachev himself denied that lie. Don't you think the very guy negotiating should know?
"Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”"
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

You are beyond stupid!

>>31374657
>1. It's not tens of thousands. Just thousands.
Bitch, Trident Juncture, Joint Warrior, and Steadfast Javelin were all in the tens of thousands, and that's just 2015.

>It's on NATO soil after all...
You do realize NATO hold exercises outside of "NATO soil", right? And you do realize that NATO exercises are often in response to Russian exercises, right? And you do realize that NATO exercises predominately take place in Eastern Europe and not elsewhere on "NATO soil", right?

>Everything else
I never said Russia isn't saber rattling too, retard.

>Gorbachev himself denied that lie. Don't you think the very guy negotiating should know?
Yeah, I think he should.

"during the negotiations on the unification of Germany they gave assurances that NATO would not extend its zone of operation to the east,"

"The Americans promised that NATO wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."


Given his *repeated* statements that NATO broke a promise, along with the German Foreign Minister saying so, along with the damned US ambassador to the USSR literally saying "We gave categorical assurances...NATO would not be moved eastward.", I think I'm going to say something's iffy in that interview, since at the very least, it completely contradicts numerous other statements, in addition to several other highly credible sources.

>You can't complain about sabre rattling when you're doing exercises with ten times as much soldiers and more frequently.
I'm American, which is more than I can say for your British-English using ass

>You are beyond stupid!
And you apparently, are either a child, or have your head shoved so far up your ass, you can't hear anything other than that which validates your pitiful existence and viewpoint.

>>31374452
>We gave categorical assurances to Gorbachev back when the Soviet Union existed that if a united Germany was able to stay in NATO, NATO would not be moved eastward.

Never happened. Read what they actually agreed on, not what the ambassador said.

>This isn't some RT shit

That's precisely what it is. Russian state media are always, without fault, quoting the ambassador without putting the quote into context. It's literal propaganda.

Anyway, former Soviet satellites like Poland, Czech rep, Slovakia or Hungary were absolutely desperate to join NATO after 1990, and you know why? Because Russia is a fucking shitty neighbor and proves it on a regular basis. These states would sell their goddamn souls to keep subhuman Russian trash off their porch back then. Sadly, they've become sloppy and have been letting themselves get infiltrated on all levels by Russian agents and people with ties to Russian business and government.

For example the extremely pro-Russian and pro-Chinese Czech president, his chief of staff and his advisor - who both have funded his campaign - all have close ties to Russian oil businesses and have been investigated for fraud and embezzlement. The chief of staff has repeatedly failed to get top secret clearance from the department of national security, but the president has simply refused to fire him, despite the fact handling secret information is his goddamn job and he shouldn't be allowed to touch any of that shit with a denied clearance.

Hell, if you track the ownership of a lot of the "alternative media" and conspiratard webs in these countries all the way to the top, more often than not they belong to someone with a Russian name. Disinformation is what they do best. Pump people full of lies every day and eventually they get too tired to look for the truth.

>>31373715
>They have frame life on pylons

Doesn't stop tiny nations from flying their AIM-120s. Is the state of RuAF so poor they get beat he by denmark in readiness?

>Not when airbases are craters they aren't
>implying russia got enough cruise missiles to disable all runways in Europe behind EU air defenses
kek
Besides, any competent nation has engineering forces specifically tasked to repair runways when moderatly damaged. Russia could only disable a fraction of the runways needed.

>doesn't exist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Integrated_Air_Defense_System

It does exist, it is quite comprehensive and doesn't rely on the wunderwaffe doctrine like russia does.

>MANPADs for cruise missile interception are you for real
>RBS 23
>RBS 90
>MANPADS
nigga plz
Also, MANPADS are effective against cruise missiles, low flying sub sonic targets are quite up their sleeve.
Only thing is you need a heads up on direction which is what IADS networks are for.

>Shit against very small and fast targets
Except they are quite good against low flying targets when using proximity ammunition and cruise.missiles tend to be sub sonic. You use them for point defense of high value targets.

>Their stealth (all stealthy cruise missiles) is good for avoiding detection from early detection radars
Wrong, early warning radars use long band emitters are good at finding LO targets while radars used to lock and guide struggle. The LO cruise missiles have a better chance to evade point defenses.

>so they very much succeeded
Except the fact all offensive operations ceased and the Serbs had to spend all their time scurrying like rats and hiding rather than removing kebab.
NATO achieved their goal with their air operation.

>Hey if it works, it works
>had never ever been tried and when faced with NATO air, russian Pk has always been adjusted from stated 0.9 to proven 0.02 or lower

>You can't even enforce your borders from the hordes
Wasn't aware EU waged armed conflict against refugees.

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>>31374987
The idea that NATO promised it would not expand eastward is a vatnik fueled myth to validate their victim complex.

And by NATO expanding eastward I mean former Soviet states wanting to keep Russia's boot off their neck, as Russia so openly demonstrated in Ukraine.

>>31373904
He did have his puppets behind the wheel.
Then he fucked up, lost all of Ukraine and got the consolation prize of putting a russian flag over Crimea.
Now the west is onto his plan for a new empire.

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>>31374987
>Bitch, Trident Juncture, Joint Warrior, and Steadfast Javelin were all in the tens of thousands, and that's just 2015.
pic related. Red is Russia. Blue is NATO. Who's sabre rattling?

>You do realize NATO hold exercises outside of "NATO soil", right?
You were talking about Russia's border.

>And you do realize that NATO exercises are often in response to Russian exercises, right?
actio reactio

>And you do realize that NATO exercises predominately take place in Eastern Europe and not elsewhere on "NATO soil", right?
Stop with the pretend outrage of an Olgino troll. Look at the numbers!

>I never said Russia isn't saber rattling too, retard.
It's not sabre rattling when Russia just invaded a neighbor and does exercises with 100k+ troops. It's a prudent reaction. So discard the "too". It's Russia who's sabre rattling, no one else.

>Yeah, I think he should.
>"during the negotiations on the unification of Germany they gave assurances that NATO would not extend its zone of operation to the east,"
..."on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context"

>"The Americans promised that NATO wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."
"Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years."
Who are you quoting? Why aren't you providing a source? Mine is none else than Gorbachev himself. And yet you still believe this bullshit. How lobotomozed do you have to be? This is as ridiculous as the guys who continued to deny the presence of Russian troops in Crimea at a point when even Putin admitted it. This is hilarious!

>>31374987
> "We gave categorical assurances...NATO would not be moved eastward."
..."on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context"
This is Gorbachev himself speaking.

>in addition to several other highly credible source
I gave you the most credible source of all, you fucking retard!

>>31374041
>2.5k T-14s alone by 2025
Does even vatniks seriously believe this?
I'D be suprised if we see more than a few dozens by then.
Those numbers fall ub the same category as russias claim that they will have a new 120T throw weight rocket, a nuclear space engine, a supersonic strategic air lift plane, their own space station and a stealth air craft by 2030.
It's pure bullshit only meant to calm the most retarded of masses.

>>31375345
>2.5k T-14s alone by 2025
>Does even vatniks seriously believe this?

Look at the goals of their navy modernization programs and compare them to the actual results.
That about tells you how realistic these numbers are.

>>31374404
This is the funniest thing I've read since 1997.

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>>31373944
>typical. you focus at the past because its only there that you are better off; presently you are shit.
Do vatniks really think they're in any position to try and make fun of people over this?

>>31368456
>Deus Vult
How many crusades you lost cuck?

>>31375625
Mudslime get out

>>31367994
Russia would take alot of land in a short time but then lose it all as quickly as they gained it do to the fact that their logistics are shit.

On top of that the Baltic states would be a blood bath and no matter what the US and UK would intervene.

Its a pretty stupid thread desu

>>31375607

The sad part is, Russians don't even have an era of greatness to reminisce about.
The Great Patriotic War is pretty much the only thing they're universally proud of, and even then they don't recall it as a good time. Nobody says "Remember WWII? Shit was so cash back then!" It's always the melodramatic, self-pitying "Back in WWII, we bled for all of Yurop! More Russians died than anyone else! We suffered the worst of it!" You'd have to try really hard to find a more self-pitying people than the Russians, who at the same time blame everyone else for all of their misfortune.

It's true anyway. The first half of the 20th century was a really fucking shitty time to be in Russia. And unlike pretty much every other shitty time and place to live in history, it didn't matter what/who you knew, what you did or owned, or where you lived. You could be on top of the world one day, have half of the party in your pocket and be buddy-buddy with Koba himself, then a couple months later you were public enemy number one and grade schoolers thousands of miles away were signing petitions demanding a death sentence for you.
Or you could live in a village of twenty, half a day's ride from the nearest town, a kid would overhear you saying American engines were good. Bam, glorifying foreign technology, you just disappeared for twenty years - if you were lucky. No one could be trusted. You couldn't open your mouth in front of your own kids, friends, co-workers. Everything was scarce, but you couldn't complain. You had little money as it was, but you had to "voluntarily" lend money to the state or you had your shit pushed in. If you tried to avoid voting, question any of the logical inconsistencies in the party's official narrative, or tried to fight the daily abuse of power by prominent people, you had your shit pushed in.

It really fucked them up as a people. You can see the same signs in every nation that lived under the Soviet rule, but no one else was affected so heavily.

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>>31372810
very low

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>>31373755
Huh. So that's why you needed thousands of strategic missiles in the Cold War.

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>>31373999
>USA larger than the rest of the world combined.

I freedom'd

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>>31375625

time for another?

>>31376268
Well, generally they can at least try to reminisce over the 60s-70s when they wuz cosmonautz n shiet and the Soviet military was truly a force to be reckoned with. Nowadays they're reduced to crying about poor, weak Russia being bullied by the ebil west while simultaneously still entertaining delusions about being able to effortlessly destroy NATO.