People here say bullpups suck. Okay, bullpups suck, fine -- but

>>31335261
Most people learned to shoot standard setups, and new things are scary. They also traditionally have shitty triggers and the LOP is ridiculous.

Look cool tho

>>31335283

What is LOP?

>>31335261
Part of it is >>31335283, but I also blame the various manufacturers who have made pretty mediocre bullpups over the years. Things like the High Standard Model 10 and the Bushmaster M17S that weren't all that great and were expensive can create stereotypes that are hard to shake.

For example, I have a DP-12 and a RFB. The DP-12 is fantastic, one of the best firearms I have ever used. The RFB has been an irredeemable pile of shit, with a manufacturer in absentee. If I only owned the RFB, I would have a bitter taste in my mouth for sure.

>>31335261
You don't want the part that goes kaboom next to your face. That said I own an AUG and fucking love it.

>>31335261
They are afraid of change, and want people to think their AR/AK is the coolest. Simple as that.

>>31335439
Length of pull. How far the grip is from the ass end of the weapon. With the exception of the VHS Croatian thing, bull pups can't adjust this, and they're usually longer than a lot would prefer.

This might not be a problem for people who've only known bull pups, but with the US market having been spoiled with AR's and their inherent modularity, it's easy to see why bull pups haven't been popular here until recently

>>31335261
Lots of sacrifices just to save a couple inches of OAL to keep a rifle length barrel.

Anybody hear anything about the MDR or is it still vaporware?

>>31335449

I fear that the DT MDR will be a let down. After taking people's pre-orders and the constant right shit in release date, they won't be able to make a rifle good enough that'll satisfy their customers. This thing has literally been a cock tease for 2 years, and it's hype is already falling by the wayside

>>31335543
That's funny, my t97's LOP is wayyy to short.

>>31335261
People who say that a small mind / poor taste / never shot one.

The only consistent bad problem I've seen is triggers that aren't great.

My concern with a bull pup is if the chamber explodes, it's gonna be much closer to my face.

>>31335449
what kind of problems have you had w your rfb? gas problems?

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>>31335283
Bullpup-phopia is caused by two things 1) fear of new things and 2) nothing

All the technical problems have been solved. Bullpups have zero problems in the current year. They are nothing but advantages for a modern mechanized military. Better for riding in vehicles, better for urban combat, better for modern warfare.

>>31335621
Are you 8 feet tall?

>>31335591
You get what I mean then. Even if the MDR is "good," it will still be a $2000 rifle that thousands have been waiting for years for, being promised all sorts of great things much of that time. It would have to "amazing" to live up to the expectations.

I was in the original wait list for the SRS, which good now, but launched to all sorts of random issues, mostly muzzle breaks cracking. If I had paid the $3000 it would have cost me then and had a problem, I would have lost it.

>>31335591
Yeah that's what I'm afraid of. At least I didn't give them my money. But I still want a 5.56 bullpup that doesn't suck and isn't an AUG

>>31335261
All else equal, the trigger will be worse on the bullpup. Often spectacularly so. Reloading is awkward, and you have to move you head to look at what you are doing. That's about it, plenty more complaints for specific models though.

ugly as fuck special snowflake guns

>>31335649
Yeah, it seems to catch and skip a couple "notches" and requires constant adjustment, even from box to box of the same commercial ammo. Sometimes, it catches hard enough to open the port completely, throwing the bolt back hard enough to seize it in the rearward position and force the magazine from the rifle.

It also has feed issues with DSA mags and the couple surplus mags I borrowed. Thermolds work okay.

Oh, and accuracy is pretty mediocre.

>>31335628
Also what is the fucking point?

At the end of the day a few inches isn't that big a deal. For anyone who actually is into guns and not some weekend faggot they will just get a stamp if barrel length is an issue. There are essentially zero advantages to a bullpup config of we exclude barrel length.

And when we include it and ignore idiotic American 16" barrel regs we're maybe now arguing over 3 to 4 inches of barrel. Which is not make or break for any reasonably common rifle caliber. There simply is no fucking point to all the negatives and bullshit that a bullpup introduces. Counter arguments welcome.

>>31335654
I think that's a bit of a stretch; bull pups aren't the end all be all of modern rifle design. I'm not ignorant to how biased military acquisitions can be, but when you have two bull pup equipped nations like NZ and FR switching to standard rifles, it raises some questions.

>>31335660
>>31335665
It's a goddamn shame because the MDR had such fucking promise. I would've loved to have gotten an MDR for my first bull pup, but the constant delays and the fact that DT has almost no experience producing on a scale to meet this demand is insane.

But then think of what happened when Magpul drew up the ACR and didn't handle production in house? Maybe the delays will keep it from being another remshit/Shrubmaster debacle

>>31335261
Most don't, more development went into the conventional layout, since more people use them, so naturally less and less people will use bullpups.

>>31335722
Maybe people like them or want something different?

>>31335718
damn, that sucks man. do you know which gen it is? i think if its the newest, 2nd gen, it should have that gold bolt group or something

>>31335656
5'8 ish?
I'm just skinny and have long arms.

>>31335801
"Titanium nitride," it is the latest version, or very near to it. I purchased it new last February.

>>31335820
I suppose adequate LOP is subjective but I still think you're an orangutan armed freak.

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>>31335261
Enter the best bullpup money can buy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQRUl_iFEA

The only legitimate criticisms I can offer:
>bullpup reloads (training issue, easier on this rifle than most)
>no dust cover

>>31335654
>>31335628
You're both retarded

Bullpups face the glaring issue of modularity and ubiquity, which bullpups have zero of.

Forgetting the fact that until recently bullpups used to use unique mags, bullpups cannot interchange parts like ARs. This is a huge reason why ARs are becoming more popular as time goes by.

They never lower in price. Ever

They also have the problem of being over built. Sure you save length with its design, but they're typically housed in lots of needed plastic, which makes them heavier than an AR.

They also all cannot agree where rails go and all require special/specific accesories.

They are also fragile safe queens. All of them fail under pressure and/or when dirty. Especially the Tavor, which is now being phased out by ARs also.

Lastly, SBRs exist and are infinitely easier to make and distribute.

It's an antiquated meme design that brings more cons than pros to the table.
The sad part is that for all the high regard /k/ has for them, the only bullpups of note are the AUG, Tavor, and Famas, 3 guns that are being phased out by their respective militaries and dreaded by their users.

>>31335654
Thats a bit disingenuous. SOME bullpups can be made to have no problems in the current year, the technology sure exists, but none of them have merged it into a single cohesive design. The F2000 fixed brass to the face, that doesn't change that brass to the face is an unavoidable feature of 99% of bullpups. X95s can take Geissele triggers, that doesn't change that 99% of bullpups have garbage triggers. Exceptions don't prove rules and bullpups as a whole still have a long way to go before there are "nothing but advantages".

>>31335862
>but they're typically housed in lots of needed plastic, which makes them heavier than an AR.
the aug is heavy because of it's steel chunk of a receiver and heavy barrel profile.

picks bullpup up.
feels it constantly falling unless locked into shoulder.
I dont want it

>>31335916
firmly grasp it

>>31335916
I'm not even pro bullpup but this says more about your upper strength than it does the issues with bullpups

>>31335862
>Bullpups face the glaring issue of modularity and ubiquity, which bullpups have zero of.
>Forgetting the fact that until recently bullpups used to use unique mags, bullpups cannot interchange parts like ARs. This is a huge reason why ARs are becoming more popular as time goes by.
>They never lower in price. Ever
>They also all cannot agree where rails go and all require special/specific accesories.
>Lastly, SBRs exist and are infinitely easier to make and distribute.
This is all the same complaint, which is that bullpups don't have the production or standardization of AR or AK platforms, and when posed as an issue is begging the question.

>They are also fragile safe queens. All of them fail under pressure and/or when dirty.
False, easily demonstrated by rifles such as the F2000. I suggest you refrain from speaking in absolutes.

>>31335933
you can firly grasp it as hard as you can its still irrelevant to necessary shoulder lock

>>31335942
STFU bitch i do at least 100 pushups a day assclown

>>31335957
try tilting your wrist forwards

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>>31335845
>hi Ian and/or Karl

I bought a RDB because of you and MAC offered me a bullpup solution to my and my lefty problem.

>>31335890
There will never be "nothing but advantages" even once all of the simple mechanical problems with bullpups are taken care of (they already are on many designs). Look into the Kel-Tec RDB.

There will always be tradeoffs. For instance, you keep the same barrel length with shorter OAL for a reload that requires different training.

>>31335970
No. I mean ojay i'll go to the gun store tomorrow to try that.

>>31335973
>hello me
I too have done exactly this. Got one for $1050 NIB, fucking steal.

>>31335996
I got mine for $1100. I made a bid on gunbroker I didn't think I would win. I was pretty excited to get a phone call from the seller that afternoon.

>>31335261
Really shitty triggers with delay and squishy horse shit
Useless gimmick.

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>>31336016
What optic are you using? I slapped an Aimpoint PRO on mine and removed the riser on the standard mount. Also swapped the charging handle over to left side.

>i don't have a pic with it in frame, but here's the box and a SLR for your troubles

OK so bullous a shit.

But what about bullpup DMR configurations? Isn't that the one application where the barrel length/OAL ratio is optimized? (Providing the trigger isn't John Henry tier)

>>31336158
>LOP
Not as much of an issue when shooting supported or prone

>Weird reloads
Not as much of an issue when long-range shooting

>Muh ambi
Not as much of an issue when not transitioning

>Muh weight
See above

And you still retain the maneuverability advantage.

The stock. There are now stock designs that are narrow, adjustable, light, and importantly can fold. This removes all remaining reasons for having a bullpup, since barrel length is not generally important any more. A bullpup stock cannot be made as ergonomic. The situation was probably understood by the 90s, (in Europe anyway).

>>31336033
I haven't gotten my RDB yet. It's on its way to the local FFL right now. I want to put a strike eagle on it, but I might put my aimpoint pro on it instead and put some KAC iron sights on my AR.

I'd really like an ACOG, but I'm priced out of one at the moment.

Why is it always that bullpups are made and marketed as being shorter than ordinary rifles?

Make them the same length, get much longer barrels so you can get better performance in the same package instead of getting the same performance in minimally smaller package that's negated by folding stock anyway.

>>31336461
That completely defeats the purpose of a bullpup. Their number draw is being a compact rifle with similar full length rifle ballistics.

>>31335621
I wish there was a way to increase the Type 97's LOP. Fun fun, but I'm too tall for it. It's uncomfortable to use the already shit irons.

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>>31336524
I actually bought the 24" barreled RFB over the 18" specifically because I could have a longer barrel and be shorter than a traditional rifle. I also haven't had the best luck with my preferred 168gr loads from 18" barrels. Again, the rifle doesn't actually work, so what I bought is a moot point.

That said, I also have no interest in any use other than maybe hunting with it and bought it mostly out of mechanical curiosity. It isn't particularly comfortable to shoot.

>>31336417
Where did you order it from? Gunbroker?

You clearly are not left handed. The only exception is the P90 and the F2000

>>31338859
And the RDB. And the RFB. And the AUG/tavor/X95 with left bolts. And the KSG. And the MDR if it solidifies.

>>31336937
Yup, I said so a couple posts ago. Most prices suck, but if you closely follow some auctions, you can get a decent price during the early adoption phase. I got mine for $1100, but they're regularly selling for $1200-1300 right now.

>>31338925
Was about to say, I make RDB's and I cant even get them yet.

>>31338952
Oh cool, you're one of the Kel-tec guys.

Mind if I ask a question: from a production point of view, is there any factory caused mechanical problem I may face out of the box?

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>>31335261
i like mine

>>31338952
They're going at or under MSRP on gunbroker all day long ???

>>31339188
damn that looks pretty sexy

>>31335261
Short rifle
Hands are too close to body

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>>31335261

>Shit triggers
On bullpups the trigger tends to be 6+ inches in front of the hammer and requires a linkage between the trigger and hammer mechanism

>short LOP
Ever see a 6'5" guy drive a fiat, it's kinda like that

>muh weight
Bullpups weigh more than a 16" AR-15, the new L85a3 weights as much as an HCAR

>muh price
It's generally a 1500+ club with the PS90 being the current cheapest at 1200

>muh familiarity
Bullpups need more training to operate, and all the training only applies to that one model of rifle.

>>31335261

When people say "bullpups suck", they really mean "I don't like bullpups"
Bullpups have proven themselves to be a viable and effective weapon and they have advantages over other platforms, however they also have disadvantages.
Whichever advantages you value more and suit you best is up to you.

>>31339337
thanks m8 shes heavy as all shit tho

>>31339668
KSG is 700. RDB is sub 1200.

>>31335945
Here's when it's an issue: Cost

Spending the same amount of money on normal ARs or AKs instead of bullpups will equip more than twice the amount of people. And they get shipped out faster too.

>FS2000 is ultra reliable
Congrats. It's the exception, not the standard.
Also doesn't change the fact that it's one of the more expensive bullpups either.

>>31340429
Aug is also reliable. Tavor is too. So is the PS90. Noticing a trend here?

>>31339901
What disadvantages do you mean?

>>31335261
>how do bullpups suck
Two Reasons:
1. Shitty triggers
>The bullpup design doesn't lend well to crisp, good triggers due to the placement of the trigger in relation to the striker.

2, Garbage reloads
>it is less ergonomic to reach back to reload a bullpup than it is to typically reload a modern sporting rifle in a conventional layout.

>>31342999
so 2 100percent opinion based factors

the reload is literally the same hand motion 5 inches behind where you did it before, go to the range a couple times and it should be muscle memory

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>>31342999
>muh triggers!

>>31335590
End of the year


IF all prototype testing goes flawlessly with the prototypes they are testing right now.

So sometime next year realistically.

Even then I wouldn't buy one until the first revision is made after initial release.

NEVER buy the first years model of anything.

the benefits of the bullpups are soooo minor in the grand scheme of things when it comes to weapon aquisition.

you loose the simplicity, familiarity and handling of conventional arms to loose a few inches of length.
its just not worth it.
you gain some you loose some. bullpups fills no purpose that conventional arms cant fill. except in very large platforms like antimaterial rifles and shit.

>>31343230
>simplicity
No.
>familiarity
Shoot more than once a year and it's a non-issue.
>handling
Traded out for superior handling.

What you lose with bullpups:
>1-3lbs weight
>1-2 MOA accuracy
>.5-1 seconds on reload
>increased cost

What you gain with bullpups:
>6-10" length reduction
>better weight distribution, less fatigue when shouldered

That's all, and it all depends on what you value more. Tactical speed reloads where split seconds count are only important in call of duty and competition shooting, but at the same time saving length for operator CQB isn't something you'll likely ever encounter either.

Ultimately the only key factor here is cost. The reality is the people who hate bullpups just because they're bullpups are poorfags and the people who hate conventional rifles because they're not bullpups are elitist hipsters who ran out of money for other guns.

>>31340589
While they're shorter than conventional rifles with a similar barrel length, they tend to be heavier.

Triggers are a complicated mess.

>>31343052
>>31343121
Again, this shit is 100% subjective as seen in the thread above, and designers have already addressed the many issues presented.As you can see, the major issues have become memes at this point, but came to be for pretty good reasons.

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>>31335543