Should they keep going or give up? http://www.janes.com/ar

>>31157995
>The US Army has prioritised the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement (CDTE) weapon as its "number one materiel solution to mitigate a critical capability gap" for dismounted soldiers in combat, and is officially kicking off the programme in its fiscal year (FY) 2017 budget request.
You tell me.

>>31158038
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

>>31158051
That was a rhetorical question. The answer was in the quote I provided. Are you too stupid to realize even that?

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>>31157995
Like the 1911, the M4 is good to go for a hundred years. What is the point in replacing something that works?

>>31158051
>prioritized
>"number one...solution"
>kicking off the program 2017
>i dont know you tell me

Americans learn to read by the time theyre done kindergarten so im assuming youre european or a very gifted toddler

>>31158068
goal is never to replace every m4 on the field with this. they could never afford it and the need for direct fire weapons will never stop. but you get a couple xm25s going in a fireteam in place of m203s or otherwise less precise grenades, and you've got an extremely deadly fireteam with the ability to kill targets behind total cover efficiently from range with a small weapon platform.

>>31158068
If you can kill sandies with a bigger, deadlier gun, wouldn't you? Also, we're essentially planning our next war with Russia, north Korea, whomever. Lets make sure we can kill 70% of them with less ammunition.

>>31158057
>>31158071
I am not a clever man.

>>31158132
That goes above and beyond in the scales of retardation.

>>31157995
While I can certainly see the benefit of a smart grenade system, I'm puzzles as to the benefit of a 15lb semi-auto platform. Why could they have chosen single shot and not lugged all that extra weight around.

>>31158157

Follow up shots in case your first grenade doesn't kill them.

>in LRIP

>>31158068
Where did anyone say the XM25 was gonna replace carbines and rifles?

>>31158038
>>31158051
>>31158057
>>31158132
>>31158155
To be fair, the army saying they WILL do a thing is different to that being the thing they SHOULD do.

>>31158157
That was a bigger problem back when it was part if the OICW program, I'd say the current weight is acceptable for the standalone weapon.

I think making it plain pump-action would save a bunch of weight and money while still being able to repeat quite fast.

>>31157995
>army funds XM25 production in its FY2017 budget
>SHOULD THEY BUY OR KEEP DEVELOPING?!?

>>31158183
This seems like an invented problem.

>>31158471
Who is going to carry it? That's always the problem with any full-sized platform.

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>>31158471
Same, I think a pump action 25mm GL would be fuckin cake. Imagine this chucking grenades

>>31158561
Those 25mm shells are long and tube mags is a bit slow for a modern military weapon IMO, you'd get maybe 3 grenades in that thing at best.

A detachable box mag gun could easily fit 4+1 and not be horribly long, and be fast to reload.

Why not make a 25mm M-203/M-320 with some electronics?

>>31157995
Aieeyah

>>31158705
>the year is 2016 and we still don't have barrel-concentric helical 37mm airburst grenade magazines
why continue living

>>31160247
fugg, meant 25mm.
I wonder what the recoil is like.

>>31159487
That'd probably be a very l handy package actually. Just give it a longer barrel to give it the right range, it'd still be light.

>>31160247
>helical mag
>with huge cartridges
The bulk would be obscene while only offering like maybe 9 grenades per mag at best (unless you want it to be bigger than a Pringles tube), I think a belt feed would allow for more capacity without making a gun the size of a golf bag

>>31159487
Because underslug grenade launchers have a shitty velocity and hence a ballistic trajectory. Their short tube wont generate much speed for their grenades, even when using high-speed 25mm ones, and their accuracy at longer distances will be crap.

The selling point of the XM25 and XM29 were that you have airburst grenades with flat trajectories, enabling you to accurately engage targets hiding inside buildings and shooting out of the windows. If you used a M203 at any distance above 100m, the grenades would just hit the roof and would not fly through the windows.

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Looks like China is superior.

>>31157995
Juar cancel it, the military will never adopt anything but shitty m4 variants made by the cheapest bidder.

>>31160862
>single shot
>20mm

>>31160890
This is a grenade launcher, not a rifle.

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>>31160919
>single shot

Lightweight. 5kg Fully loaded. Can be used as a standard assault rifle.

>20mm
Flat trajectory, high speed and still enough bang to take some people out with prefragmented tungsten shrapnels.

Also, dat rifle is modular as fuck. Scopes, electronics/FCS module etc. can all be switched out and upgraded with a bolt-on interface system.

>>31160954
Its a breech loaded single shot bolt action. It would be much lighter without it, and how it is, is completely useless.

>and still enough bang to take some people out with prefragmented tungsten shrapnels.

US army said that no, it was not.

>m...muh smaller electronics

Excuses.

>it has rails!!!

Oh boy!

SAGM is far superior. Its lighter with all the capablitys, and twice the explosive power.

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>>31160978
>SAGM
>Ballistic trajectory and low velocity grenades in 2016

China used the ZH-05 during their counter-piracy operations off Somalia and they were satisfied with it's performance in clearing the deck off entire pirate ships.

Hence why they produced 60k of these guns already.

>>31161025
>>Ballistic trajectory

Oh im sorry, does the impotent 20mm grenades have magic where they achieve anything but the above?

>and they were satisfied with it's performance

Oh i have no doubt its better than that abortion of a bullpup.

>>31161046

>Oh im sorry, does the impotent 20mm grenades have magic where they achieve anything but the above?

Yes, they they do.

>119MPa chamber pressure
>219m/s muzzle velocity
>800m range and 29.46 meters vertical
>reaching the distance of 800m in 4.446 seconds with an arc of 7.02 degrees

Even the wiki states that the 40mm SAGM grenades are only supplementary, as they merely provide indirect fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_mm_grenade#SAGM

>The airburst function is similar to the XM25 CDTE, which has an onboard laser system to determine the distance to the target, but SAGM is considered complementary to the XM25 rather than competing against it, as the XM25 provides direct fire while 40 mm launchers fire indirectly.

>Oh i have no doubt its better than that abortion of a bullpup.

That bullpup BTFO American special forces during every single international competition.

>>31161025

>tfw you will never clear pirates off decks with a grenade launcher

>>31161079
>Yes, they they do.

>>Proceeds to post a very ballistic flight profile.

Wew laddy.

>complementary = supplementary

L E fucking L

>American special forces
>international competition.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, you mean that one where the US sent a logistics company filled with women?

>>31158038
We can't suffer a grenade gap to exist.

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>>31161124
7 degrees is anything but ballistic for a grenade, especially for a distance of 800m. You'd wish to have this sort of trajectory when firing an assault rifle at that distance

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>>31161142
>"1. The first variant had a 5 round magazine, but the PLA requested the single-shot, manually loaded bolt-action system not only because it would be easier to change munition-type, but it also would enable the designers to design single-purpose 20mm grenades. Compared to the XM-25, XM-29 and K-11's multi-purpose grenades, each individual chinese 20mm airburst grenade has only the airburst mode, the impact explosion grenade has only the impact explosion mode and so on, which increases the explosive load of those grenades as they reduce the room needed for complex electronics. To compare, the XM1018 20mm grenade has both impact and airburst modes, which consumes rougthly 60% of the grenade's volume for electronics, battery, sensors, limiting the the size of the warhead and reducing its destructive power.
>The PLA has hence very high confidence in the wounding effects of their single-purpose 20mm airburst grenades during urban battle, as it apparently performed better in tests than even hand-grenades and approaching that of infantry mortars (as in higher killing co-efficiency; note that chart below).

>2. Due to the single-shot, manually loaded bolt-action system, the soldier can very easily chamber the individual grenade type required for the specific tactical situation at hand, without having to play around too much with the electronic-fuse settings. This increases the reliability of the grenades and reduces the weight of the weapon overall due to simpler electronics.

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>>31161150
>3. There are three kinds of grenades for the grenade launcher: The conventional impact grenade, the airburst grenade, and, what is called as the 'secret weapon'; the 'shotgun'-grenade. Latter is described as a grenade which will explode into a barrage of shrapnels to the forward direction at a customized range as set by the user. One can think of a small AHEAD (Advanced Hit Efficiency And Destruction) round to imagine its underlying principle.
According to the users during field tests, this grenade is devastating in combat and has a high suppression value in close urban battle.
With these three grenade rounds available for this system, it gained its "three-in-one-launcher" nickname by the PLA.

>4. TOE wise, the standard PLA squad is already divided into two fireteams. Traditionally, it is the RPG fireteam and the Machinegun fireteam. Now, each fireteam will receive one ZH-05, with two in total per infantry squad, raising the unit's overall combat efficiency dramatically."
http://www.guancha.cn/Hong-Xibo/2014_02_23_208026_2.shtml

>>31161142

Its, quite literally, a ballistic trajectory you moron.

>>31161161

>buckshot grenade
>'secret' weapon

>>31161025
>Hence why they produced 60k of these guns already.
>only seen in photo ops

Does anybody know anything about the current status of the caseless lmg the army and the marines are testing? Wikipedia is a couple years out of date

>>31161170
Everything is a ballistic trajectory, but this is a flat one. Unlike a 40mm grenade that couldnt even reach beyond 400m - and that, when it is being aimed towards the sky. You can forget 'accuracy' then.

>>31161171
programmable buckshot - exploding at a pre-set distance.

>see groups of nignogs running at you, but groups of civilians are standing before them
>chamber a directional airburst grenade
>set fuze to explode 2 meters ahead of approaching group behind the civilians
>fire
>entire nignog group turned into cheese, civilians unaffected by anything but the loud bang
>mission accomplished

>>31161188
The US Army really likes the 6.5mm variant.

>>31161207
>half a kilometer or more from the target
>needing to use a grenade launcher to neutralize the target
Sounds like the perfect time to call in support or an airstrike.

>>31161225
They picked a good caliber at least. Is that telescoping or true caseless?

>>31161207

Well gee anon, it better be flat with the tiny projectile and fuckhuge barrel.

Point is, SAGM completes its mission with ZERO addition to a basic m4 with launcher.

>>b...but my range suppression

In that case, the mag fed XM-25 does this better to. Each SINGLE xm-25 is worth 5 ZH-05's for this role, and you can change a mag far faster than you can fumbleing around with a single shot bolt action.

>>31161136
It's more about having an infantry-carried PGM that isn't a quarter-million dollar anti-tank missile.

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>>31161207
>Everything is a ballistic trajectory, but this is a flat one. Unlike a 40mm grenade that couldnt even reach beyond 400m - and that, when it is being aimed towards the sky. You can forget 'accuracy' then.

True.

Chart is about golf-balls, but it shows how fucking flat of a trajectory 7 degrees are, especially @ 800m.

>>31161249
>Airstrikes

Civvies are kill, so are nignogs.

America

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>>31160862
I fukcing wished they included that gun in Apex and not that shitty beowulf meme-gun

>>31161296
In what world do you think you are going to be able to positively ID a target over half a kilometer away that is safe to take out with a HE grenade but not safe to call in support for?

>>31161263
MAAWS?

>>31161310
The Vipers are already OP as fuck with their armored and thermal shielded full-body suit and that integrated thermal vision.
Fuckers didnt die even if I shot them five or more times.

If they had some fucking OICW, that last mission would have been impossible to win.

>>31161296
Clearly you've never heard of GBU-39. DIME warheads use inert metal powder that is insanely lethal in a small radius but quickly decelerates to harmless velocities. And the CEP of SDB is only five to eight meters. The SBDIIs CEP is less than one meter. Uno. Yi.

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>>31157995
>xm25
Outdated already before development is finished.

>>31161388
>What is fire-and-forget?
>What is ammunition weight and bulk?

>>31161399
>what is OP capabilities

>>31160830
>If you used a M203 at any distance above 100m, the grenades would just hit the roof and would not fly through the windows.

Wouldn't that be the point of having fancy pants electronics; to calculate the correct angle to put the first round first and on target?

Las the range, have an angle sensor work with the range finder and give the correct angle to shoot. Use the same sensor to detect when the platform is at the right angle and indicate to the operator that it's good to fire.

>>31161446
>the grenades would just hit the roof and would not fly through the windows.

>>every target you want to hit is under a roof, and on the first floor.

lel

lel

>>31157995
But it works great on cowadoodty

>>31161461
Las the edge of the roof, get to the correct angle, aim a bit further up. System shows an offset calculation the further above your set aim point you go.

Fucking impossible!

>>31161406
In a completely different role and form, you mouthbreather. XM-25 rounds are $55 bucks a pop, they come out of a semi-automatic weapon five at a time, and they work best between 500 and 700 meters. Switchblade is a single use stand-off weapon. These systems are designed to be complementary.

If you can't see that one is for standing off while the other is better when in contact with the enemy, nothing can be done for you.

>>31161485

Sagm works without any additional components.

>>31161492
*out to between 500 and 700.

>>31160862
>Implying it works
It's China, never take their word for it
I have more faith in Daewoo's take on the OICW thing

>>31161522
K-11 pretty much failed and equally is stuck in developmental hell.

ZH-05 is in mass service.

>>31161492
If they are truly only 50 bucks a round we should be fielding them already. I kinda doubt even standard 40mm are all that much less

>>31161537
The problem isn't with the material costs, it's in the design of the rounds themselves.

>>31161368
No programmable rounds. Also a bulkier weapon with much bulkier ammunition.

>>31161505
>Sagm works without any additional components.
You still need to get the grenade on target. A laser range finder would be a benefit to any grenade system.

The extra computational power is negligible so their is little reason not to have a fire control computer help out.

>>31161564
Except for the fact that it doesn't exist yet. You intentionally fail to understand that SAM is designed for expedient introduction.

>>31161536

>K-11 pretty much failed and equally is stuck in developmental hell.

>>well over 4000 made

Wew lad

>>31161564
>You still need to get the grenade on target

Grenadiers do this all the time.

>>31161564
Holy shit it's as though US infantry haven't been aiming underbarrel grenade launchers for decades.

>>31157995
No they need to combat the enemy with dragon dildos attached to a saws all.

>>31161388
>costs $70,000 a pop
>vs the $50 for a 25mm airburst grenade
>only has the lethal blast radius of a 40mm grenade
That actually sounds pretty shitty.

>>31161591
>Grenadiers do this all the time.
>>31161610
>Holy shit it's as though US infantry haven't been aiming underbarrel grenade launchers for decades.

They would do it faster, with higher accuracy and fewer missed shots with a full up FCS.

I was a tank gunner, I could put one round into the hole left by my first shot out to 2000m. Not because I was anything fancy, but because I had a stabilized computer controlled gun that did everything but pick the target and pull the trigger.

>>31161651
>with a full up FCS.

Which adds complexity and weight, and time to engage, defeating the entire point of SAGM.

>>31161225
Do you have any links with updates? It would be nice to see just where they are with LSAT.

>>31161368
He means Javelin.

However, note that Pike is now also an option, and may compete directly with XM-25.

>>31161651
I'm not saying that it wouldn't, just that the ability to function well without is one of the primary sellingpoints.

>>31161665
>Which adds complexity and weight, and time to engage, defeating the entire point of SAGM.

You have a target out around 300m, in range but a far shot. You estimate the range at 300 because hey you have an mark on your iron sights for 300m.

Nope it was 350m. First shot missed.

VS sight the target, push button aim up wait for beep, first round kill.

>>31161639

>I Dont Understand Modern Combat: The Post

Why is it in every modern arms thread, there's that one guy who claims China is technologically lightyears ahead of the rest of the world

>>31161728

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

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>>31157995
>To read the full article, Client Login
Learn to pastebin articles you faggot.

Also
>all the faggots in this thread going on some nationalistic wank about "my country is better than yours" because they feel their masculinity is being challenged rather than discussing capabilities and tactics with a new weapon

>>31161665
They've already been adding improved FCS for 40mm launchers anyways, it changes nothing for the SAGM.

>>31161687
>a mini TOW
>competing directly with an airburst grenade launcher designed for engaging targets behind cover
They fill completely different roles you fucktard.

>>31161746
>They've already been adding improved FCS for 40mm launchers anyways, it changes nothing for the SAGM.

And it adds two pounds to the weight of the system.

>>31161687
I can't believe I'm saying it again, but what is ammunition weight and bulk, and what is the difference between semi-automatic mag fed and single shot?

>>31161557
HE 441D is an airburst round.

>>31161728
Because people who are extremely nationalistic or are fascists start tying everything to how masculine they are and feel like they are being called less of a man any time their country/group/whatever isn't the best. Great examples of this are how LMGs where issued to soldiers in the Italian army during WWII based on how heroic and masculine they were instead of being issued to soldier who were actually trained on the best use of the guns, also how /pol/ and the alt right accuse everyone who doesn't agree with them of being a cuckold.

>>31161150
I guess the secret to the OICW was K.I.S.S all along.

>>31161791
Still isn't programmable, still fuckhuge.

>>31158459
>To be fair, the army saying they WILL do a thing is different to that being the thing they SHOULD do.
True. Like any organization, there's the chance to get things wrong. But in this case the decision seems to be strongly supported by actual field experience with them from trials in Afghanistan.

>>31158071
>Americans learn to read by the time theyre done kindergarten
>im-fucking-plying
Reading is more than just being able to mouth the words you see.

>>31161891
>set round to airburst at x distance
>not programmable

>>31161891
>Still isn't programmable
Yes it is. It is programmed manually.

>>31161150
>each individual chinese 20mm airburst grenade has only the airburst mode, the impact explosion grenade has only the impact explosion mode and so on
Have fun potentially carrying grenades you don't need for the task or ending up with dead weight and a launcher you can't use if the rangefinder gets damaged. There's a reason why the US and other countries wanted impact detonation. If the US and other countries decide that having that backup option isn't necessary they'll just adopt a new grenade variant.

>3. There are three kinds of grenades for the grenade launcher: The conventional impact grenade, the airburst grenade, and, what is called as the 'secret weapon'; the 'shotgun'-grenade. Latter is described as a grenade which will explode into a barrage of shrapnels to the forward direction at a customized range as set by the user. One can think of a small AHEAD (Advanced Hit Efficiency And Destruction) round to imagine its underlying principle.
>something that could easily be implemented with the XM25

>4. TOE wise, the standard PLA squad is already divided into two fireteams. Traditionally, it is the RPG fireteam and the Machinegun fireteam. Now, each fireteam will receive one ZH-05, with two in total per infantry squad, raising the unit's overall combat efficiency dramatically."
Last I checked a good portion of their soldiers only get steel pot helmets, no rifle plates, and squad leaders don't get radios. How can they afford to issue 2 of these new guns per squad if they can't even issue things that other countries have been using for decades?

>>31161886
Thank you for correcting the record.

>>31161889
No, that terrible abomination is not the secret to anything.

The secret was putting it all in the grenade, a la SAGM. Anyone, any m203/320 rifle, any launcher can use it. It makes everything from a m79 to a m320 a "smart weapon".

>>31162016
>>31162020
Welp. I guess I'm done posting tonight.

>>31157995
25mm grenades might not have been the right place to have started development.

Maybe a 2 stage recoilless rifle/rocket combination would have been better.

>>31162215
/tg/ pls

>>31162093
>40mm from a short barrel
Enjoy the rainbow trajectory.

My point was more that trying to get individual grenades to do multiple things might be of questionable practicality.

By getting rid of the multi purpose shells they can fit larger payloads in the single purpose ones.

Just holding one shot doesn't allow for rapid fire, but how fast do you need to deploy airbursts or grenades? Single shots are fine for underslung 40mm launchers and have been for decades, why can't 25mm and 20mm launchers be single shot just as well?

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>>31162450
>Implying multi-shot 40mm launchers aren't in use.

>>31162450
>By getting rid of the multi purpose shells they can fit larger payloads in the single purpose ones.

And by carrying single purpose shells you either have to carry a lot more or have a limited amount of shots.

>>31162450
Sometimes you get attacked from multiple positions at once. Rather often, actually.

>>31162450
Because 20mm has far less wounding abilities than 40mm, and for area supression you need follow up shots.

XM-25 does it far better for long, SAGM for short range.

>>31161257

Cased telescoping, the caseless version had better reliability than G11 but it's still deemed not enough.

Especially considering LSAT starts with the LMG first, so heat management is a bigger problem.

>>31161492
>Switchblade is a single use stand-off weapon.
This is why it is OP. You don't need to stick you head into machine gun fire and it provides perfect bird's-eye view on the targets when user is safe in some ditch (relatively).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3o-A8MBiw4

>price
Did you count price of dead solders? Because to get same level of target detection and kill probability you need literally walk into enemy positions and this will not end well.

>>31162923
Yet it's still less than ideal when you need to fire on more than one position at a time, and it's overkill when the enemy is within 700 meters. So I tell you yet again that Switchblade, Pike, SAGM, and XM-25 are COMPLEMENTARY weapons. The Army intends to operate most, if not all, of the above, simultaneously.

>>31162923
>This is why it is OP.
The reason why it's not is because it's heavy for only a single shot. You can't mass them like you could another system, as they're simply too large to do so. You will only be hitting one position at a time, as opposed to someone with an XM-25 likely carrying 10 rounds minimum, with 15+ being more likely.

>>31163064
Really? I would've thought an infantryman could handle 25 rounds including five in the gun, easily.

>>31163092
I'm making the assumption that he's not carrying solely the XM-25. If he WAS carrying solely the XM-25, yeah, he could carry quite a few more than that.

>>31162923
>>31161388
ITT one retard trying to argue for a system with a totally different application, not realizing it is irrelevant to the thread because of the different application

Can anyone here enlighten me on how this thing's action operates? Either my google-fu is rusty or there isn't much information about that out there.
Long-stroke piston/rotating bolt or something more creative?

>>31163161
According to modern firearms dot ru, it uses a rotating bolt. That's the best I could find for you.

>>31162967
>and it's overkill when the enemy is within 700 meters.
It is not if enemy or his position is not clearly visible or detected. See how most firefights look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2SWWDt8Wg
No one sees enemy and just spray and pray on general direction. Which is no surprise you can't really see much from the ground level if enemy don't walk into open and you concerned about you safety. Putting eyes on air platform that can approach close to an enemy without any risk to solders completely changes dynamic. Suddenly you can see extactly where the enemy is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJSIPdpui6s

>>31163064
>You will only be hitting one position at a time, as opposed to someone with an XM-25 likely carrying 10 rounds minimum, with 15+ being more likely.
But with real hit probability actually hitting target not spending thousands rounds of ammo to spray "that treeline".

>>31163118
Sword and rifle are totally different application too.

>>31163378
You are really, really behind in this. Even the US Army has had recon drones for decades, to say nothing of what the Airforce, Navy, and Marines fly, and nothing of all the different sorts of optics avaliable to ground units. It's also a lot more complicated than spraying and praying, infantrymen know many ways to deduce where fire is coming from on their own.

Also, you clearly missed the part where XM25 was used in combat in Afghanistan, and cut engagements dramatically short.

Seriously, just stop.

>>31163378
>implying soldiers can't make aimed shots when required
>implying they'll be spraying XM-25 rounds all over the place
Holy fuck, you're daft. You suppress the enemy and then eliminate them. With the XM-25, you can hit them even when they're behind cover. Let's take think for a moment you've got a squad getting engaged by several guys from windows. Those windows are suppressed, and then the guy with the XM-25 puts a single round through each one, detonating just after it gets inside.

>>31163378
>Sword and rifle
Nice random nonsequitur

>>31163378
>Sword and rifle are totally different application too.
Actually yes, they do. If we go back even 150 years, they did have very different applications. If we go back to 1700, we see Swedes with swords and rifles using the both of them. A volley of musket fire was followed immediately by a charge with swords. Not bayonets-- swords. They kicked everyone's ass until Charles went full retard and ended up leading an army into the Ukraine, suffering so much attrition along the way, especially with the Russian scorched earth tactics, that his army was no longer in any condition to fight. And even then, if he hadn't been shot in the foot and had led his men at Poltava, they STILL could have won.

>>31163473
>You suppress the enemy and then eliminate them
Oh you just kill them with no risk of retaliation. This is entire logic behind weapons development and transition from swords to rifles.

>>31161310
>A3 featuring actual cool near future tech rather than 6.5mm meme rounds
Nope.

>>31163836
>Oh you just kill them with no risk of retaliation.
Mate, you've got a single round to do that, and then you're stuck working on the front lines like the infantryman you are. This doesn't obsolete normal fighting. Not by a long shot. The XM-25 on the other hand means you carry quite a few more rounds, which will do a hell of a lot more damage. Your precious Switchblade only does as much damage as a single grenade. An XM-25 would carry at LEAST 5, probably 15+.

>This is entire logic behind weapons development and transition from swords to rifles.
The entire logic behind that was because rifles could kill things deader and they're easier to train proper use of than swords.

No matter what you might think, infantry are still going to be fighting on the front lines. They will still be exposed to enemy fire. There's a reason why armies are not composed exclusively of tanks or artillery.

>>31163836
You're still ignoring that a platoon using Switchblades in place of XM-25 wouldn't be able to carry enough weapons to finish patrols. Hence why the Army is still taking BOTH. If anything, Switchblade will steal thunder from unguided mortars in the same way that XM-25 will fill the hands of grenadiers instead of M32s.

Do you see anyone replacing those weapons with mortars? No. Because mortar rounds are fuckhuge, can't go where M32s go, can't shoot the way M32s shoot, and would make massive messes and reduce combat effectiveness if anyone tried to force the issue. You're just going to be forced to carry too little ammo, run out too fast, and then be stuck with nothing when you actually NEED to reach out to 10 km.

>>31163989
>The XM-25 on the other hand means you carry quite a few more rounds, which will do a hell of a lot more damage.
Do you seriously think every round would be aimed at target?

Put XM-25 in this situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2SWWDt8Wg
Where should grenadier aim again? How much leafs he would damage?

>>31164384
He's got a thermal sight with 4x zoom, he'll figure it out.

>>31158561
Ooooh

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>>31161161
God dammit that chinks face in that pic pisses me off. Just look at it. I can't wait for the war. God I hate the Chinese so fucking much.

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>>31164528

Yes, goyim! The Chinese are your enemies! China is a threat to the American values!

>>31158442
>Where did anyone say the XM25 was gonna replace carbines and rifles?

It sounds bizarre, but some of the 101st loved it so much in Afghanistan that they actually stopped carrying their M4's entirely.

>>31163985
They wouldn't simply because of the effect it would have on gameplay. You should have seen the people bitching about the idea of including realistic functioning rifle plates because it would make the game "less tactical" when the game was still in development.

>>31158038
> OP: Should they so this thing?
> A: They ARE doing it, idiot

No shit but the question is are they making the right decision? Can it be a good weapon?

>>31165366
Judging by the rave reviews from troops who used it to resolve actual firefights, they could ship it ammo problems and all and the grunts would probably still love it.

>>31165004
It's funny because stormfags are everything they accuse Juden of being

>hate host countries
>refuse to integrate
>openly try to destroy society

>>31165366
Does "number one material solution to mitigate a critical capability gap" mean nothing to you?

>>31165527
Does "I want an independent opinion" mean anything to you?

>>31165570
When you're asking for a second opinion because the opinions of line infantry in real combat aren't giving you the answer you want, yeah, it begins to lose meaning.

>>31165570
Does "shit that was never asked for" mean anything to you? And you aren't going to get an independent opinion, because the only people's opinions that should really matter are people who used the things, while the rest of us interpret how they feel.

There is one very big upside to our excellent adventures in the Middle East. We get to live fire test a lot of new and experimental weapons against actual targets. And there is no better way to distinguish truth vs bullshit than actual live fire combat.

Apparently, the troops using the XM-25 against live targets like it a lot. Apparently, the Switchblade does the job as well.

When the shooting starts, the bullshit stops.

>>31165366
>Can it be a good weapon.

To put it simply, the XM25 in good hands makes pretty much any form of cover outside of being in a tank or significantly armored vehicle pointless.

Behind a window? Dead.
Behind a doorway? Dead.
Behind a wall? Dead.

The XM25 is utterly horrifying to anyone who would have to fight against it, its presence means nowhere is safe.

>>31166369
Don't forget behind trees, in foxholes and trenches without top cover, dips in the terrain, and bunkers, if you can thread the needle.

>>31164528
Damn dude take a chill pill.

You're literally xenophobic if all it takes are foreign ethnic facial features to trigger you.

>>31166369
Shit sounds pretty good honestly.

>>31166369
What does it even shoot? Ffs

>>31166504
Have you tried googling?

Shoots 25mm programmable airburst grenades. You use the rangefinder to see how far the enemy is, set the grenade to explode a couple of feet past that point, and start shooting.

>>31166369
Also I should mention the possible future of infantry combat both scares and impresses me.

With stuff like the XM25 and possible implementation of EXACTO style rounds in the future, it's going to get a lot harder to not die on the battlefield.

>>31166411
Thermal exhaust ports in fully armed and operational battle stations, too.

>>31161385
Yeah and you spend $50000 on what $200 smart grenade could do. Congratulations.

>>31166482

>.5 chinkbucks have been deposited in your account

Eat shit you dog eating subhuman. You ant colony rice farmers are literally worse than goat fuckers. Mao is a retarded faggot.

>>31166773
Eat shit stormfag.

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>>31158071
>Americans learn to read

>>31166825
t. Chinaman

You can will never be American

>>31167039
>You can will never be
t. Chink

There is nothing wrong with using a pump action that feeds from a box mag. Such a design would essentially be a more ergonomic, modified bolt action.

Making the XM25 a pump action as some anons suggested above could be the one thing that pushes it over the edge into being easy and practical enough for mass deployment. No gas system means less weight, less complexity and more options for the grenade loads. Still high capacity for a GL, still relatively fast rate of fire for a GL, still fed by a box mag so minimal downtime for reloads, and of course it has the programmable airburst advantage.

Hell, make slug/shot loads for the thing and it can work like a shotgun in a pinch.

>>31161446
Have fun threading THAT needle.

>>31161721
Says the guy ceaselessly arguing the superiority of a weapon system which is for a completely different purpose.

>>31167083
>No gas system means less weight, less complexity and more options for the grenade loads.

Except none of this is true.

>>31162540
And Pike for 2km+.

>>31166369
Not so good against good old foxhole, especially against type with no parapet.

>>31167242
Pike is retarded.

>>31166896
Why read when you can solve everything with violence. Reading is for those without physical ability.

>>31158561
Too bad no china lake

>GOOKS IN THE WIRE!

>>31168312
Laze the ground right in front of or behind it. Add or subtract a foot or two. It now explodes right over it, showering those inside with shrapnel. There's a reason why it's the CDTE- Counter DEFILADE Target Engagement.

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>>31157995
>deployed as a heavy suppressive weapon like a SAW
OR
>have it issued per squad like the AT-4 or an M203

Those would work. No doubt that an ultra accurate weapon that would pretty much remove the value of cover when issued as per squad support would work well. But when they slap a underslung rifle to it then it is a fucking broken idea. if they could make it smaller or lighter then I see no issue with it, but then again, the ones that have been fielded might as well be prototypes.

>cheaper than a javelin

>>31168429
>But when they slap a underslung rifle to it then it is a fucking broken idea.
There isn't an underslung rifle, you fucking idiot. It's purely a grenade launcher.
Nor are the M203 squad level assets. They're fireteam level assets. Each fireteam has at least one. There are often more than that.

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>>31168452
I was speaking about the project as a whole. It started with the rifle and launcher all in one. Then they took off the rifle and called it an XM25.

>and I do apologise for confusing how M203s are issued

>>31168314

Fuck you. Explain why.

>>31168429
>2016
>still posting that shitty image

Kys

>>31168480
>implying the OICW has been relevant in over a decade
Mate, what you wrote clearly showed you were talking about the OICW instead of the XM25. If you meant otherwise, learn to fucking write. You had only one subject you specified.

>Then they took off the rifle and called it an XM25.
Nope. They started off looking for programmable airburst grenades there, but that's where comparisons end. It rightfully died, and the XM-25 program started to go after the same end goal. They're in two different calibers, for christ's sake.

So in the future, don't be making retarded statements. Hell, don't talk at all until you can learn a thing or two.

>>31161651

You would be very surprised at how insanely good people can get by just eyeballing it

>>31161728
I don't love the Chicoms, but evem if they fuck up their airburat launcher on a practical level, I think they have quite a few good theoretical points, and the US would be able to do this at least as good, if not better.

>>31162040
>Have fun potentially carrying grenades you don't need for the task or ending up with dead weight and a launcher you can't use if the rangefinder gets damaged.
That's a pretty good counterpoint now that you bring it up, actually.

>>31167205
Gas pistons aren't weightless.

>>31158705
true, mag fed is better. KS-23 is sweet though, best example of something close to 25mm I know of.

>>31160954
China also bullshits the weight by counting the optic separately
>This changes with the ZH-05, which not only features a sleek, assault rifle-like profile, but is also remarkably light, at only 4.27kg unloaded and 5kg fully loaded (compared to the K11's 6.1kg unloaded). ZH-05 achieves its low weight through an innovative way of integrating only the laser range finder and fire control system with the gun itself, while keeping the optics modular and interchangable -- which not only lightens the weapon dramatically but also confers greater flexibility for the soldier who may wish to change between different scopes.

>>31165275
Has Call of Duty gone too far?

I think they need to focus on miniaturization and get it down in price to make it affordable for a fire team to have.

>Covering fire!
>BOOM
>Forward!

It's a perfect weapon system until you start getting near peer capacities. Given China always copying our homework I'm sure there close with whatever their knock off is.

>>31169026
Neither are pumps.

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>>31163523
I don't miss imperialism, but I do miss when we were a cool country.

I don't think we handled the end of the Cold War very well.

>>31170084
Pump action:
>bolt can be simpler depending on design
>one or two bars connecting the pump-handle to the bolt-carrier, maybe one or two guide rails for the pump-handle to ride on (possibly a bar on one side and a rail on the other)

Short-stroke piston:
>gas-block
>gas-tube
>gas-piston
>charging handle

Long-stroke piston:
>larger gas-block
>larger gas-tube
>much larger piston that is attached to the bolt-carrier

Stoner style gas-expansion:
>gas-block
>very modest gas-tube
>bolt and bolt-carrier do most of the work
>but needs a buffer, which doesn't fit in a bullpup
>no idea if this actually works well with the kind of powders used in these shells (though there's always a way to fix that)

Gas delayed blowback:
>let's not

>>31170084
I knew you were going to go for that even though I specifically put in a line about it.

The proposal was for the standard system to be converted into a manual bolt action, then move the handle upwards as a pump, perhaps doing this with straight pull bolt design. The thing would still be using the box mag, not replacing it with a tube mag and a lift.

>>31170483
The buffer of an AR can and has been moved into the receiver so that an extension tube is not needed. The LR300 is an example and it can use a folding stock as a result. You can totally put it in a bullpup.

>>31170483
>>but needs a buffer, which doesn't fit in a bullpup
No, it doesn't. The AR-15's buffer tube is just a different way of positioning the recoil spring. Some straight blowback guns like the Kel Tec Sub 2000 and the French MAS-38 have a buffer tube like the AR-15, but that hasn't kept designers from making bullpup straight blowback guns.

>>31168377
>Laze the ground right in front of or behind it.
Unless you are on the elevated position can't do that. Also form elevated position it possible to lob conventional UGL grenades into foxhole.

It did well in 2013 in Afghanistan on the testing.

Good enough that the SAS are using it against ISIS these days. Something has to have worked.

>>31158157
We have single shot platforms.. It's about gaining and maintaining fire superiority. The noise and concussions alone are enough to start disorienting the enemy.

>>31158471
>>31158561
so a China Lake? How sucessful were they compared to the M79?

>>31171242
That's horseshit. There will always be something you can laze and then add/subtract as needed. Even the fucking reverse slope of a hill doesn't make you safe, it'd still explode over it and fuck you up.

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>>31161537
What is R&D and testing anon? We're working on getting them fully fielded now, they were only taken out of Afghanistan during trials following an accident which injured the operator.

>>31172696
No, China Lake had a tube mag like a shotgun, held like 3+1 and was a bitch to load.

What I was propositioning was removing the gas system from the existing XM25 design and just put a pump-slide on it for manual cycling, you'd still have detachable 5rd box mags and a bullpup layout, and the gun could still be repeated rapidly.

>>31164384
>just firing hundreds of rounds into the ground, no discipline or accuracy needed
>sitting out in the open all in a clump
>guy talks like its a personal offense when the enemy returns fire

No surprise that America can't win firefights.

>>31175404
>real firefights are like cawadooty

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>>31173487
You want a pump action bullpup for negligible benefits beyond rule of cool.

>>31173134
the only reason the operator was injured was because he messed around with his ammo

>>31171835
Name the single-shot smart grenade system used by a US military branch.