Why doesn't the US switch to bullpup rifles like the rest

>>30662189
you mean like all those countries that use the M4?

countries that use the M4

Argentina, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Bolivia, Botswana, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Brazil, Brunei, Burma, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Congo, Costa Rica, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Egypt, East Timor, Estonia, Fiji, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Haiti, Honduras, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq ,Ireland, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Jamaica, Kuwait, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Maldives, Malaysia, Mexico, Morocco, Nepal, New Zealand, Norway, Laos, Nigeria, Netherlands, Oman,Pakistan, Panama, Philippines, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vietnam and Venezuela, Georgia, Afghanistan.

man, the US really needs to get a better service rifle...

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>>30662218
>M4
What's the purpose of an M4 when you have an FN2000?

>>30662189
>China
>France
>Australia
>Israel
>Britain
>New Zealand
>Belgium
>Some other small unimportant nations
Yeah, OP, sure. The entire civilized world totally uses bullpups.

>>30662260
>>F2000
>What's the purpose of an F2000 when you have an M4?

>>30662257
They do tho
Just because the M4 is light, cheap, and effective, doesn't mean it's the best

And I'm the guy who made this post>>30662218

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>>30662189
I will bite.

Because Bullpups are shit. They have crappy ergos and even shittier triggers. And what do you even mean by civilized world? The British SA80 is an unreliable mess. the French Famas is outdated as shit and they don't even make parts for it anymore. The Tavor blasts gas in your face and the AUG has literally no advantages over the M4 except for a few inches smaller in overall length. The AR15 platform (M4, M16, HK416, ext) offers greater overall modularity, ergonomics, is cheaper to produce, is plenty reliable, and is already what all US troops are trained to use. More nations are switching back to things like the 416 anyways so your argument doesn't even make sense. So basically you are retarded.

>>30662276
Belgium uses the FNC and SCAR fgt

>>30662302
>except for a few inches smaller in overall length
it's considerably shorter

>>30662257
american vassals

>>30662276
Austria and Ireland too

>>30662302
>Because Bullpups are shit
Not an argument.

>>30662257
Vietnam uses M$?
>cultural_victory.jpg

>>30662302
Don't forget that .308 is making a comeback for DMRs and Spec. Ops, and the AR-10 and SCAR beat the living shit out of bullpups there.

>>30662361
A service weapon is a symbol of allegiance. Vietnam really hates China, even after the Vietnam war with America. America is happy to have new allies in the Pacific theater.

>>30662360
except he backs his claim up with arguments you fucking idiot

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>>30662276
I thought china used these as their mainline service rifle?

>>30662189
Because we expect to use ours in actual war.

>>30662477
They do, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

>>30662494
i was seriously thinking china reverted back to AK variants and looking it up. Thanks m8y

>>30662494
He is saying China isn't civilized, and those nations on the list hardly count as a majority.

>>30662520
I think they're looking to replace the QBZ, but I might be mistaken.

>>30662189
The rest of the civilized world doesn't see near as much conflict as the US.

>>30662189
because bullpup gay af sampai

>>30662477
He was listing countries that use bullpups

>>30662548
>>30662477
>>30662520

How does the QBZ pair up to other service rifles?
is it just the product of modernization or is it just a fuck up in their military's wishlist?

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>>30662395
rude

>>30662361
>>30662392
They use the XM177 for special forces. They apparently also have their own domestically produced Tavor as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Vietnam_People%27s_Ground_Forces#Firearms

>>30662591

They're really popular in Canada.

>>30662257
>UK
Only SF and basicallySF use it here, that's kinda reaching If we're talking about bog standard grunt-issue rifle, which I think we are.
Take the countries that only field M4s in SF and your list would be a fair bit shorter I suspect.

>>30662791
X? As in they're using experimental nam-era chopped M16s? I find that funny for some reason.

>>30662302
>except for a few inches smaller
Just like anyone using a shit tier bill pup rifle

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>>30662887
Yes, rebuilt XM177's and Chinese produced clones that they call M18.

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>>30662887
>>30663030

>>30662189
Because the USA actually fights wars.

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>>30662260

>>30662302
AUG is shorter than the M4 by a significant amount. While retaining a barrel length of a M16.

That is a pretty big advantage.

>>30663039
>those weathered rollmarks
Muh Dick

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>>30663119
>the rest of the civilized world

>>30662260
How much experience do you have with the fish gun? What experience does anyone have with it? It is an unproven and generally underwhelming rifle that FN will discontinue any day now.

>>30662361
We fought each other so hard we got all the animosity out and realized we're kind of in love with each other. Uncle Ho's dream comes true.

>>30662302
The F2000 is the same length as a Mark 18, which is a snubnose variant of the M4 that was made because some pros thought the M4 was still too long for indoor use, and still has a longer barrel than the M4, which is sometimes derided for having too little barrel to keep that 5.56 flying fast enough for any more than urban combat distances.

"""""""small difference"""""""

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>>30662189
Because they come with their own set of problems, including:

>balance
>complexity
>mag change time
>risk of shit flying to your face

Also, it's what we got and it works. Furthermore, plenty of civilized nations (Germany, Sweden, Finland, Italy, Canada, Belgium, Poland, Baltic and Balkan areas, Russia, etc) use standard actions.

I'll admit I really like the bullpup design, but they do have disadvantages and advantages over the standard weapons we use.

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>>30663311
>snubnosed
>anything but revolver

Are you actually retarded or do you not know what an SBR is? Anyways lets just look at what people are adopting to answer this. Plenty of nations are adopting MK18's and HK 416's for both they're infantry and special forces. Nobody is adopting the f2000 or any other shit tier bullpup. The SOF of every country they use bull pups choose to use an AR based weapon system. Now if actual operators prefer using an AR for room clearing and other tasks than the "shorter" bullpup said than who are you to claim the bullpup superiority?

>>30663414
bullpups have better balance.

aluminum and plastic conventional rifles are overly front heavy

>>30663433
Nigger have you ever even heald a bullpup?

>>30663498
no, why?

>>30663498
Yes.

I got to use Australian Army AUGs at ranges in Iraq. British Army L85s in Afghanistan ranges.

When you are talking about service rifles, bullpups being rear heavy, is a plus. They aren't nearly as tiring to hold as a conventional rifle. Can shoot with one arm while shouldered, better than conventional. Can shoot one handed while not shouldered better.

>>30662593
fucking weaboo. You're the effect of reduced bullying in school

>>30663175
underrated

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>>30662189
>L85
>AUG|
>FAMAS
>Good

>Japan
>America
>Canada
>Uncivilized

>China
>Israel
>Civilized

You are so objectively wrong OP that I'm posting a random webm to see what it is as reward for having to point out all the horseshit in your inquiry

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>>30663736
please stop

I'm left handed, I'd rather not get a face full of charging handle. I'm sure there are others that agree, bullpups aren't as friendly to use if you're anything other than right handed.

>>30663419
>playing the semantics game
I say snubnose because its stubby compared to all the rest. Of course there are some AR pistols that cut their barrel length down even shorter but those have gone way past practical territory.

I picked the F2000 because it is a good poster boy bullpup for length comparisons, not because it is the current ideal. There are better bullpups today.

>>30663498
A conventional rifle has top-heavy katana balance, a bullpup rifle has European bottom-heavy sword balance. Guns are for thrusting at people with bullets not for swinging around.

Checkmate modern fudds

Also conventional infantry don't get to choose their special snowflake custom equipment so giving them a bullpup that works well in all areas is the best thing you can do. For the common rifleman, the designated marksman, the truck driver who needs something small and the pointman for breaching rooms, you only need one gun and one supply line to do them all.

>>30662189
We will proudly use some bastard version of the M16 forever. Soldiers on Mars will be bitching about them while they fight the Neo-Zeon empire and Martian insurgents.

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>>30662189

New Zealand is ditching the Bullpup because of its relentless faggotry. I dont mind the Steyr BUT:
1/ Its fucking hard to be as quick on a mag change as with an M4;
2/ The trigger is horrific;
3/ Taking the barrel odd can wreck your zero.

The Replacement LMT is a metric fuck tonne better.

>>30662298
>light cheap effective
>not the best
Are those three things not what a military would want in a gun? I mean you could give everybody a scar, but rip in peace wallet.

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>>30662189
"How it was turned into a bullpup was a technological feat, but I will try to explain; basically they ran a coat hanger from the trigger to the sear."

>>30662189

>rest of the world
>civilized

>>30662276
You can remove New Zealand from the list; they're getting M4s.

>>30662257
Australia only uses them in a SF capacity tho

>>30663196
AUG has a 16" BBL iirc

>>30662326
It depends what an extra 6" of OAL reduced from a carbine length weapon matters to you from an M4 OAL. The M4 was a decent reduction in comparison to 20" BBL M16A2.

>>30662189
Bullpups are for nations run by sinistrophobic bigots.

>>30666514
No, it's 20"

>>30663414
>price
>aesthetics
>interchangeable parts w/ older gens
>adjustable ergos
>length of pull for some shooters (obviously)
>changing magazine in certain positions
>hot barrel inside chassis heats up
>chamber check is less convenient

I used to want an AUG something fierce until I met one for the first time w/ cash in hand and while its completely capable and a little underrated but it would be solving problems I don't have

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>>30666538
I know it had one in the past, but we're talking about today. They have 24" barrels for it on the site

>>30662189
Because guns are a phallic symbol why would you want a shorter one? That's like telling them to buy smaller trucks.

>>30663599
>Can shoot one handed while not shouldered better
Thank god we finally have a solution to arming our amputee army.

>>30664144
Why don't we beat the left handed children anymore? They make everything difficult.

>>30662846
as far as i know regular infantry/soldiers have little to no choise and are practicly forced to use domectically produced weapons while SF has more freedom in selecting their weapon. and when so many SF's are choising for M4's over bullpup's that must mean something, no?

>>30662189
Some of us like to complete a reload before the other guy does.

>>30662302
>SA80 is an unreliable mess

Please set yourself on fire.

>>30663238
Filename kek.

>>30666681
He's not wrong.
Quit being edgy.

>>30662189
Jeeze IDK because a M4 costs around $650 and a Tavor costs around $1700.

>>30666642
That tells me that """SF""" need to spend more time shooting enemies and less time playing barbie with their guns.

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>>30662189
The U.S. and even Soviets have been in more conflicts than the rest of the world. Currently the middle east and highly volatile militant regions do not have their militarizes equipped with bullpups. Any Latino country south of the U.S. boarder, that are known to use Military and Police against evil pagan tier cartels and bandit gangs are not not equipped with bullpups. The last military that has actually impacted a region so heavily, did not have bullpups.

>>30663599

L85? And you were impressed? That is one of the most shit guns ever. Didnt they have to switch back to m4's?

>>30662189
We should at least switch to metric first.

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Because the triggers are shit and will forever be shit by design.

>>30666900

Checked

>>30662361
...did you try to make a capitol 4?

>>30666817
>than the rest of the world
Are you stupid?
>Currently the middle east and highly volatile militant regions do not have their militarizes equipped with bullpups
you are stupid
>Any Latino country south of the U.S. boarder, that are known to use Military and Police against evil pagan tier cartel...
As opposed to those latin american countries north of the US, el canada etc

Just think before you splurge your sperg shit all over the board please

>>30662302
>SA80
If you are talking about the A1, then yes you are roght, however, the Brits have the A2 that was worked with H&K with the A1 problems solved. Kinda how the M16 was an unreliable piece of shit until it was fixed with the A1.

>>30662520
>>30662548
I believe they're making the same rifle but as a non bullpup. Norinco's military model would be the QBZ-03 but it was mainly used by Combat Medics and Support Troops IIRC. Don't know if they'll replace the Type 95 with the Type 03

>>30662189
Because Hotaru is the worst girl.
Saya a best.

>>30662361

They really REALLY hate China. Everyone in that region does. The US is the teacher in that playground keeping China in check. So yeah, they're an ally.

>>30667792
well... Iran does have the VHS and Austria still has the AUG afaik

>>30667916
Don't forget that Croatia still uses the VHS, too

>>30662276
Britain and France are both looking for different rifles to use

>>30662276
>France
Getting rid of their FAMAS, moving to a traditional platform.
>New Zealand
Getting rid of their Steyr, moving to an LMT rifle.
>Britain
Trying to get rid of their L85
>Belgium
What? They use SCAR and FNC rifles.

>>30667986
>Britain
>Trying to get rid of their L85s
The M4s were used by an Air Force unit to guard the nukes. I believe their SOF are using C8s. I haven't heard anything about the Brits changing their SA80A2 for their standard military

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>>30662189

1) Because transitioning from the M4 to a different standard-issue rifle is a greater logistical feat than most can appreciate. Not only are you having to replace the rifles in every armory (which is itself a huge pain in the ass), you're also having to retrain the entire force on a new rifle, retrain armorers to be able to fix and maintain the rifle, get enough spare parts to keep the weapons running, distribute new cleaning kits, and don't even get me started on the paperwork.

Considering the financial and logistical burdens of adopting a new rifle, the US Army simply doesn't care to get a replacement for the M4--especially when light infantry doctrine is built around the GPMG and LMG anyways. And they won't change it until a significantly better cartridge comes along to replace the 5.56x45--something that (arguably) already happened with 6.8 SPC, and they STILL didn't go with it.

2) Bullpups aren't that great. They're more complex (especially when having to accommodate for left-side shooters w/ ambi controls and ejection) and they only serve to allow for a longer barrel or shorter overall length. Not to mention that their ergonomics are weird, since magazine reloads and malfunctions occur outside of your "natural workspace."

pic related--centerpiece of American infantry platoon

>>30668039
>pic related--centerpiece of American infantry platoon
Anime tiddies?

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>>30663119
when was the last time you won one though?

>>30666605
how come so many on /k/ own mosins then?
checkmate atheists

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>>30664627
Yet you still don't respond to how literally anyone who can ditches bullpup designs. SOF's all around the world use AR's whether it be an M4, C8, or HK416. France is switching over to a conventional rifle and the UK will lily follow. Also you are still retarded for calling anything but a revolver "snub nosed".

>>30663039
>>30663030
That's fucking dabk as shit

>>30666709
>400 for an FN M4a1

Even better with the correct price.

>>30662257
>countries that use the M4
>Argentina, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Bolivia, Botswana, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Brazil, Brunei, Burma, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Congo, Costa Rica, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Egypt, East Timor, Estonia, Fiji, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Haiti, Honduras, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq ,Ireland, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Jamaica, Kuwait, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Maldives, Malaysia, Mexico, Morocco, Nepal, New Zealand, Norway, Laos, Nigeria, Netherlands, Oman,Pakistan, Panama, Philippines, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vietnam and Venezuela, Georgia, Afghanistan.
>man, the US really needs to get a better service rifle...


I'm not going to argue against the M4 or M16 since I think it's a fine rifle but let's not be arrogant enough to assume all those countries use it because it's "the best" as in performance. The more likely option is that America has created a ton of documentation on how to deploy/support the platform in relation to UN/NATO forces. Why would a country re-invent the wheel if it's already done for you, with tons of free whitepaper research? Many of those countries receive aid in the form of vouchers for American goods. Might as well spend them on durable goods like guns and support necessities. And lastly, America buys a ton of M4s so they're cheap.

So you can walk into a proven platform with instructions for the full life cycle of the rifle, that you're spending free credits on, and they're super cheap.

Really it's a question of; are you closer to US or Russia. With the notable exceptions being people like France who are all like "Le no. Remembeaer De Gaul!"

>>30668399
see
>>30668894

I think he explains it well enough along with a bunch of other people in the thread and posts I made that didn't refer to you. The countries moving away from bullpups are moving away from some of the earliest in-service examples of these rifles which all carry long-standing faults due to designers not knowing better back then. The latest designs attempt to rectify various bullpup issues, but unfortunately it will be a while before the inertia shifts back enough for them to start trying out these new bullpups again. Looking forward, it will not be a matter of personal preference because bullpups have better potential and eventually one lucky design will pop out and be completely superior to a conventional layout rifle sometime in the future.

Because you don't actually have any arguments of your own and try to evoke emotional points from readers by putting shitty reaction images along with your posts, I can safely assume that you are too dumb for actual intelligent discourse. Fuck off.

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>>30662836
I have a T97, Ergo and sights are shit but the trigger is better then a Tavor.

>>30668272
>Anime tiddies?
No my friend, you are looking at the big, thick handguards of a M60E6

This thread was made just in time for France's announcement of dumping the Famas for either the HK416 or Scar-16

Bullpups were a mistake

>>30669924
Think they'll dump those rifles into the US surplus market?
I just kinda want one for novelties sale.

>>30662189
cause fuck you, we will NEVER SELL OUT

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>>30669995
Century arms imported around 100 semi automatic famas rifles called "MAS.223" in 1988.

The problem now is that they are fully automatic rifles and cant be imported unless the receivers are torched per ATF spec and turned into a pile of parts kit. This also means that the barrel has to be cut up too since it was attached to a machine gun per the ATF's recent decision in the early 2000's on this topic.

I believe the receiver was milled and the closest familial tie the rifle has is the FAL (short stroke tilting bolt action) so it will probably take a FAL receiver manufacturer like coonan or DSA (unlikely seeing how their RPD parts kit builds failed to sell or even turn over a substantial amount of money) to make reproduction barrels and receivers or sell builds.

In all honesty the design had real problems that were never completely worked out like blown out cases and torn off rims and jams. IIRC they had to switch to using steel cased ammunition because of this.

>>30669995
>modern surplus military guns
>sporting purpose
Nope.

>>30670125
DSA is too busy selling cookie cutter AR15's now to continue making RPD's. By the end of the year production will stop.

>>30662189
Because the powers that be have decided that there is little to no tactical or financial value to arbitrarily switching out the current service weapon for a special snowflake design.

>>30670150
But bullpup rifles look cool as fuck.

>>30662189
Bullpups simply suck and are more expensive for lower performance

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>>30669695
That does not explain why allot of these nations choose Canadian C8's or German HK416's. These SOF units choose these platforms because they are more modular and have better ergonomics. There are no countries switching over to any "new bullpups". In face not many companies are developing new bullpups because the concept has been proven to be inferior. Why select a bullpup as a standard rifle that has a cancer trigger, and is awkward to use when you can just use carbines as a standard and SBR's for room clearing? France is switching over to either the HK416 or the SCAR for just this reason instead of developing a new bullpup or adopting something like the F2000 or Tavor. This has nothing to do with standardizing with the US. If that where so than all of these nations would be using M4's and not rifles in the incredibly large spectrum of the AR15 platform. Even the Russian Spetsnaz have adopted the HK 417 and have been seen using M4's captured from Georgia (the country not the state) and they are especially not trying to standardize with the US.

From what I have read of your comments you are likely a noguns or a europoor trying to shill for muh fishgun.

>>30668027
If they do ditch 'em, I hope we get parts kits.
I know they suck and all, but... come on.

>>30666573
>The AUG A3 M1 boasts am overall length of just 28.15 inches
>boasts am overall length
>am

Damn, that's on the official company site. Typos on official shit like that crack me up.

>>30666900
No, they still use the A2, it's a fine rifle except for being heavy as balls. SF and some elite units use colt Canada C8s though - you might be thinking they switched back because royal marine fleet protection group recently decided they wanted C8s as well instead of L85s, citing better handling in close quartets (FPG are the guys that would in theory fight an enemy that snuck onboard a ship - lots of tight corners inside a ship for sure)

>>30662846
>no our military doesn't use the M4
>only our very best

Lol so it looks like your SF agree that the M4 is the better platform.

>>30666413
See
>>30671629

>only the best of our military use it. That somehow means its shit.

>>30662189
its spensive.

>>30670309
But the A2 is literally the British version of the M16A1 when it comes to fixing the shit the old models had. Considering how the Brits are a bunch of douchebags when it comes to firearms, they'll probably destroy it or give it to Hadjiis

>>30663254
I'll bite.

It's an all around good gun. Doesn't feel cheap or rattle. Takes down easier than you'd expect. Recoil is different from your standard action rifle but after a few rounds it feels pretty natural. Ergos are pretty solid too despite it's looks.

I had an all around positive experience with it.

Same reason we don't use the metric system like the rest of the civilized world. We're special and not a bunch faggy fags

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>>30662302
>Look, anon is talking out of his ass again.

Well at least you tried being interesting.

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>>30673362
Le smug animu face definitely makes you right. Especially after giving no reasoning whatsoever for your statement.

>>30671629
I never said it wasn't better, I said that listing the UK under countries that use ARs as their issue rifle isn't right.

>>30670245
>These SOF units choose these platforms because they are more modular
So you decided to just derail your argument in your second sentence?

From what I've read of your comments you're blindly appealing to authority while ignoring the reasons why they are actually doing it, while somehow also acknowledging them at the same time. Pretty sure there's something very *wrong* with you.

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>>30674684
How is it appealing to authority when SOF units who can choose to use whatever weapons they want choose AR's over their country's crappy bullpups? And the reasonings behind why they choose the AR's (M4's, C8's, HK 416's) have been stated a million times but I will say them again. They are more ergonomic, modular, and less awkward to control. Tell me when someone develops a bullpup with these same qualities.

>>30667792

The only speg here is you.