Has the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier ever been attacked? Or vandalized,

>>30204244
I saw some kids try once. Got stopped pretty quick. Secret Service roughed em up afterwords.

>>30204244
>Also are those rifles loaded?
IIRC, the guy doing the patrol git around the front of the tomb does not have a loaded firearm but IS authorized to use any force to remove belligerents trying to deface the tomb(ie, the bayonet). And since the guard post with the others is right there, he probably has a button or something up his sleeve he can press or just yell for help if needed and have a dozen more guards pour out.

>>30204244
If you go past the line, they will point their guns at you. They're loaded. It's basically the most symbolic thing and they'll gladly fuck you up.

ive seen them shove a jap tourist with a camera who tried to get in their face and photgraph

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>>30204244
Yes, Canadian Soldier Nathan Cirillo was killed at ours in Ottawa, his rifle was unloaded

>>30204244
These guys take their jobs so seriously they will even yell at tourists to shut the fuck up if they get too loud.

>>30204244
How many tombs of the unknown soldiers are there around the world? I'm also surprised Weather Underground hasn't bombed that area during 'Nam

>>30204870
Wouldn't have done shit considering he was shot in the back.

>>30204870
>Nathan Cirillo was killed at ours in Ottawa, his rifle was unloaded
>Can't even use lethal force guarding an honerary memorial

>>30204919
Practically every country has copied the British since they started it

>>30204921
I agree with you, just replying to the OP dont get your panties in a bunch

>>30204944
He was shot in the back you retard

>>30204244
The rifles ARE loaded. They ALWAYS have someone manning the post. I went to the one in Arlington. The whole area was dead silent and they just did their walks like robots. But you could tell they were serious about their duty.

One kid laughed at something or other and they gave him the coldest fucking death glare I've ever seen. the kid's mom made him shut up right quick after that.

>>30204959
I doubt they're loaded given that it's all just rifle drill

It's like asking of the USMC Silent Drill team is loaded

>>30204959
>The rifles ARE loaded.
They're not loaded - they're M14s and they don't even keep a magazine in them/on their person.

If you're loud, you'll be verbally challenged. If you cross the barricade at any point, you'll be physically challenged - if you try them, you're going to get fucked up seeing as they're allowed subdue or remove you by whatever means are necessary.

>>30204944
It's really retarded, the C7's have bolts in them but they can't have a few rounds in the mag just in-case, even after he was killed they still don't have rounds. Instead they have the Ottawa police babysit them.

>CF personnel can't have rounds because think of the chillunz!
>parliament has an RCMP-QRF team loaded to the tits with better gear than actual soldiers

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>>30205015
>They're not loaded, there's no magazines!
I just found this. Is it yours?

>>30205039
I think it is kind of dumb too, their argument is that the guard has always been ceremonial and we havent had armed guards since the FLQ crisis, Maybe by having armed guards = Times are just as bad during martial law

>>30205039
They're not actual guards. They're ceremonial.

The Honor Guard at the Tomb aren't armed.

>>30205042
uh oh, those guys who wanna fuck up the Tomb better watch out, those M14s may or may not have a single round in them!

>>30205042
>I'm a fucking retard
It's ok Anon.

>>30205086
I know that, I do CG during the summer. All I have is my bayonet and cops across the street for protection.

>>30204244
https://tombguard.org/society/faq/

take that with a grain of salt however, cause god knows they don't want to answer whether its loaded or not. It's been under guard since July 1st 1937 for 24 hours, so I highly doubt it's been approached or vandalized since then

Also,
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz4YetNkFMA

Starting at 16:30, is a good segment on the guard, and the entire thing is about the 3rd infantry reg, that does various duties around arlington. Pretty cool documentary and I definitely suggest watching it

>>30204980
Silent drill team is not guarding anything.

I went to Arlington about a month and a half ago, as there was a funeral going on. I can't speak for the rifles they were carrying, but I remember at least one of the soldiers was packing an M9. I also remember that all of them looked very physically fit despite being assigned to such a cushy posting. Although I'm sure looking good is one of the requirements of the posting, it was still somewhat surprising.

>>30204880
Oh I've been there when it happens, with a booming voice they just tell people to respect the silence or something

>>30205514
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdHxUXf2CE

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The one in Greece was attacked and had a riot go on at it.

>>30205015
They're loaded

>>30205823
Because something happening halfway around the world is definitely what OP was looking for

Who in the fuck would fuck with a symbolic site for soldiers, especially the unknown soldiers who will never be identified by anyone?
Fuck. At least the dead identified ones have family or even their name somewhere, but to just fucking die and no one knows you even existed?

>>30205613

Join the Navy, see the world, get laughed at while being a tourist attraction.

>>30206606
>someone post the picture of the Vietnam memorial in CA that got written over with black lives matter

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>>30206735
Oh god I might just kill some niggers. . .that is just disgusting do they not realize that there were black soldiers in Vietnam too.

>>30206606

who gives a shit, they died for politicians

>>30206756
Careful with the edge there summerfag

>>30206751
The response I've heard is
>dey wuz forced ta fight
to the point of add nausea

>>30206759
>muh edge

really, who the fuck cares? they served and died for the ruling class and the ruling class couldn't give two shits about them. all this pageantry is a fucking joke.

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yeaap [ sniff /sniff]

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>>30204959
>>30206530
They carry a sidearm for the sole purpose that the rifle is ceremonial.

>>30206880
fug I just lost the game

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>>30206936
BTW: Why do they carry the M14 which has seen comparatively few years of full services (I'm not talking about it being a DMR or something)

Wouldnt the Garand or M1903 be a much, much more symbolic rifle (the latter because it served the US for two world wars and several decades)?

>>30205368
>I also remember that all of them looked very physically fit despite being assigned to such a cushy posting. Although I'm sure looking good is one of the requirements of the posting, it was still somewhat surprising.

Becoming a Tomb Guard is not easy at all, and actually involves some of the strictest screening processes in the armed forces. The qualifications are so strict the the ONLY badge rarer than the Tomb Guard one is the fucking Astronaut badge.

>>30207279
The Tomb Guard have previously used Springfields and Garands before switching to the M14. I suspect that it's easier to keep M14s maintained, especially since the Springfield and Garand are no longer in official use by the Army.

>>30206880
Kek

>>30207322
This! The m14 is still in service. The m1 garand is not

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The Shrine of Remembrance in Melbourne Oz was defaced with anti-war graffiti during the Vietnam War.

The Victorian Police officers who guard it are armed with their standard service pistols.
The Foot Guard who do the ceremonial guard duty with the red jackets and bearskin hats are armed with loaded service rifles.
So I'd suppose those honor guard are armed too.

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>>30206735
>>30206751
don't know where you got BLM from this

>>30207365
Also during its construction Keith Murdochs - Ruperts father - newspapers criticized it as being pagan for not having Christian symbol and icons, complained that it was too gloomy, whined that the money could have been spent elsewhere
He and General John Monash who designed it and oversaw its construction did not get along during WWI

>>30204945
Fucking English can't even be arsed to learn the names of the men who die for them.

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Well, there is that war animals memorial in London.

>>30207374

>graffiti
>california

blm or not, it was either niggers or mexicans

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>>30207374
>yfw all of the names were painted and not engraved

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohGBIl2aPvA

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>>30207522

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>>30207528

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>>30207533

No, the rifles are not loaded. Are you retarded? They open the action on the rifles when they change gaurds, you never notice there's A) No gooddamn magazine, and B) No round coming out when they inspect the rifle?

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>>30207554

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>>30207559

>>30204244
I've got 6 friends in the Honor guard, and none of those fuckers knows how to do his job.

But goddamn if their uniforms aren't spiffy.

I didn't read thread but not to my knowledge.

They totally fucked up the changing of the guard when I went tho.

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>>30207564
I could keep going, but I'm heading off to sleep instead.

>>30206796
This website is 18+ you know

>>30206764
Ad nauseam

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>>30207577
I've got a local one for you here

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>>30207744
Keked so hard I woke my wife up 10/10

>>30204958
I know that dumbass, I'm more surprised that the Canadian honor guard can't use lethal force

>>30204919
>>30204945
>no national tomb of the unknown soldier in the Netherlands
>just a local one
>but due to a lack of an actual unknown soldier they just buried a local resident who happened to be the first local from the region to get killed in may 1940

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>>30207533
>>30207554
>>30207522
>>30207475
>>30207374

>>30207522

Shit like this makes me wish vandalism carried a death sentence.

>>30207463
>Islam
>Animals in war
Well, at least this one makes sense.

I recently went to the Chattanooga battle grounds and went to the battle above the clouds. It was actually really jarring seeing all the monuments each unit had erected where they had fought in the battle. 2 long lines of statues and memorials dedicated to each side of the battle. You could actually see where the battle lines would have been. People that deface war memorials for political reasons are some of the lowest members of society in my mind. Completely missing the message of veterans from both sides coming together to create the memorials.

>>30205823
Why was it attacked? Who did it?

>>30207839
Have you not seen the fucking news in the past five years

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happens all the time in germany

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>>30207956

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>>30207964

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>>30207970

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>>30207983

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>>30207987

>>30207744
That's pretty funny though.

I remember reading a bunch of twitter posts about it too. It's not even that offensive

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>>30207990

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>>30207996

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>>30208005
etc....
this country has a problem

>>30207990
>Kill one, and you're a murderer. Kill a thousand, and you're a hero.

>>30207956
>>30207964
>>30207970
>>30207983
>>30207987
>>30207990
>>30207996
anti-fa faggots
I bet they drink rapefugee cum by whatever largest metric unit of fluid measurement there is.

>>30204307
>If you go past the line, they will point their guns at you.
No they don't.
>They're loaded.
No they are not.

>>30208019
Yottaliters?

>>30207995
I agree, there's no political agenda behind it and it's just a bit of banter, it's fine. most of the other ones itt are pretty shit though

>>30207996
that mans face describes perfectly my reaction to the second half of this thread.

>>30208029
yottaliters of rapefugee cum

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Yes. My former FSO and the current commander of the FA School at Fort Sill used to be an enlisted Tomb Guard during the Eighties, and he told me about this incident:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1983/03/24/veteran-takes-hostage-at-tomb-of-unknown-soldier/73232890-2336-4d9c-b72a-de498381ba4e/

It's not the only time, according to my former boss. He said not long after the above event, a guy armed with a knife attacked a sentry, but media didn't report on it because they thought the first story led to this copycat attack.

>>30208009
I remember going to a world war 1 memorial in Bavaria, and it said something along the lines of "For those who died for the fatherland" except "Fatherland" was purposely etched out. Made me sad more than anything.

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>>30207564
>YFW the Joker visits the area

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>>30204244
https://tombguard.org/society/faq/

Google is your friend!

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>>30204244
Memorials being defaced, especially by people who don't understand why the memorials are there, is unbelievably sad.

>>30208089
>Kirby placed his M14 rifle at port arms, a readiness position, and started to advise the man that the cemetery is restricted military property after 5 p.m. when the man pointed a small-caliber handgun at him, Nicholson said.

>Kirby continued to stand at attention while the others ran to guard quarters and alerted authorities.

>Kirby continued to stand at attention.

The brass fucking balls on that guy. Jesus Christ that's so American it hurts.

>>30207983
As fucked up as this is, I find it kinda funny that german graffiti is neatly stenciled and symmetrical.

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>>30208139

It's a stencil. Stencils are streetart.

German and Swedish writer scenes are the fucking kings of Europe. Tons of great art, there's special police investigation groups in Germany to fight it.

>>30208161
Im sorry, but "street art" does not belong on memorials.

That said, That graffiti is top notch.

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the Ijzertoren (named after the river it's next to) got blown up in 1946
I was and is a Flemish memorial to the dead of the first world war.
They never got a conviction for it but considering that (parts of) the belgian army was involved in blowing it up thats not that suprising.

>>30206796
"the ruling class"
Like there's some sort of caste system you're born into, and you can just decide whether or not you lead a country

>>30207983
>tater

>>30207996
>painting the redneck word for potato on a monument
>unironically
>still thinking you should be taken seriously

Just like there is a German word for the joy of pain of others, there should be a word for laughter at the dipshittedness of others.

>>30207365

>the foot guard who do the ceremonial guard duty with the red jackets and bearskin hats are armed with loaded service rifles.

Really? We have those?

Didn't think we did the bearskin.

>>30208533
>being this ignorant

nobody said anything about being born into the ruling class

>>30208693
I was saying there's no such god damn thing as a ruling class, you vapid twat. Not in this country.

>>30208723
But you dont get it though
Soldiers are basically niggers
Why praise niggers

>>30208723

im sure that's what your middle school social studies teacher told you last spring.

they are also know as the power elite. try reading a book or two. or just look at wikipedia.

Not many things really piss me off, but you don't fuck with the dead.

That shit just ain't done.

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>>30208063

>>30208650
>Täter
>Perpetrator
>redneck word for potato

are you retarded?

>>30208009
>>30208005
>>30207996


I want some tater salad now dammit.

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>>30207996
>>30208005
>>30208009

What's taters, eh?

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>>30208063
>>30208866

It's better mirrored

>>30207337
>>30207322
So the Tomb guard might one day use M16A1s?

>>30208027
They aren't loaded but they do point their guns at you if you repeatedly break the rules.

>>30208911
see
>>30208883

It's done by leftists every year on the Heldengedenktag, the German soldier remembrance day. They say that day makes victims out of perpetrators, Täter out of Opfer.

>>30208940
Doubt it. If you've ever seen their m14s they aren't your everyday one. They have a deep dark wood with a mirror finish gun metal with obvious wear from constant Polish and use. They are beautiful pieces. Seen one in person and met a guard after his shift when he recognized my highschool's hoodie and struck up a convo with me

>>30208173
>Im sorry, but "street art" does not belong on memorials.

That's not what i was about, ofc it doesn't. That stencil was a political one tho, see >>30209043


I was talking about stencils not being Graffiti, but streetart. The anon i refered to called those stencils graffiti.

>>30208101

Where I'm from, there's no such thing as "fatherland" written on monuments. Just "In remembrance of our dead".

I wouldn't want to shoot anything other than a blank from a drill and ceremony rifle. The parts have all been ground down to make them looser. So they clink and clank more when the soldier moves it around.

>>30209248

really i didnt know that

>>30207744
Disrespectful but it's quality bantz nonetheless

>>30208260

Is there a picture of what the original memorial looked like before it was destroyed?

I can only find pictures of the new memorial.

>>30208027
Yes they are.

>>30208920
>>30208866
Saved

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>>30209265
The one on the left is the old one (source is the museum that operates the tower).
While several identified soldiers were buried below the old tower and are still buried there, that's not our tomb of the unknown soldier.
Our unknown soldier is interred at the base of the Congress column, which commemorates the creation of our constitution.

>>30205613
Think that might be the same guy cause that's the year I went

>>30205613

wonder what he would do if the crowd ignored him

oh right. NOTHING. impotent little shit.

>>30204277
What were they trying to do?

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>>30207996

>>30205823
>30205823
fucken north african migrants... im mean syrian refugees( i cant tell the difference anymore )

>>30204244

Arlington is a part of Fort Myer/Henderson Hall/Fort McNair. Every once in a while some bum or hippie who just can't seem to STFU gets thrown in the backseat of the post's MP mobile and then the provost marshals hands said dude over to Park Service police for booking.

The MPs are definitely armed w/ one of their missions to prevent folks from harming the Old Guard. IIRC it used to been the policy of the sergeant of the guard who marches in the relief has a full mag in the sidearm (Hell, it still may be policy given that this is DC).

There definitely fucksticks who don't realize that the Tomb of the Unknowns deserve nothing but silent respect if not outright reverence but again given any time somebody decides to throw a dude in the can it's a Federal matter given the nature of DC

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>>30207996
>>30207990
>>30207987
>>30207983
>>30207970
>>30207964
>>30207956
>>30208005
>>30208009


>mfw when I see this Idiocy

>>30212062
Fuck too late

>>30212062
>mfw when
>that bad cap

Nigga pls

>>30212062
wow nice fucking crop jesus christ

>>30212062
>my face when when

Rip in peace, brain

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>>30207813
Fucking Kek

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>>30212062

>>30211909
Did you have any experience with these hooligans?

>>30206735
>>30206751
No, it didn't. It was some random ass street tagger.

And it wasn't really a memorial. It was a mural, painted back in the early 90's in the same fashion as the Wall, but hadn't been maintained since then.

>>30207522
>Confederate monument in Charleston, SC
>>30207528
>Confederate monument in Augusta, GA
>>30207533
>Confederate monument somewhere in Maryland
>>30207554
Confederate monument in Denton, TX
>>30207559
Confederate monument, unknown location
>>30207577
Confederate monument, Albemarle LA

You know, I don't see a problem here. As an *American* I never understood why we have any monuments to our enemies. At best, the Confederate States were a belligerent nation at war with the United States, who were resoundly defeated. While we can respect them as men, US doesn't have monuments to the Germans we fought and killed in both World Wars, do we? At worst, they were traitors to the Union, who engaged in open warfare against the lawful government. That's not worthy of any remembrance.

>>30207564
This one pisses me off, but it looks like any other ordinary edgy teenager vandalism.

>>30213456
>ex confederate states having memorials to their dead
>a bad thing

>>30213456
>edgy yankee cuck detected

They were still Americans, no matter how much your women's studies professor tells you otherwise.

>>30213509
>>30213492
These. And I'm a yankee

>>30207554
>Honoring your soldiers is racist

>>30213492
>Ex confederate
Exactly. Germany doesn't have memorials to the Reich, does it? No, just to their dead. Just because they were, doesn't mean they are. And memorials to the dead are fine, but the moment you mention "Confederate," then it's no longer memorials to the dead, is it?

>>30213509
No, born and raised in Sumter, South Carolina. If they were Americans, then they were traitors to the nation, and traitors don't deserve memorials. If they were honorable enemies of a country at war with the United States, fine, honor away to the dead, but don't pretend they were Americans.

TL;DR- You cannot both be an American, and take up arms against America with the intent of breaking up the United States.

>>30206880

should not have laughed
.... fuck xerunia anyway

>>30213580
>Germany doesn't have memorials to the Reich

Oh man, it's not like Eagle's Nest is still standing or anything

You fuckwit. Sit down and shut up.

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>>30213580
>You cannot both be an American, and take up arms against America with the intent of breaking up the United States.
You're not making any sense when it comes to revolution, coups, and armed resistance

>>30208124
>Tomb Guards carry fully functional M14 rifles. Given the current climate surrounding the relatively recent tragic events in Canada (attack upon the guard at the Canadian War Memorial), we will no longer be answering questions relating to specifics regarding current security and armament at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. We appreciate your understanding.

THEY'RE LOADED.

>>30213603
>Kehlsteinhaus
>Nazi memorial

You wut? So you're saying that a building that's now used as a restaurant and brew pub, that deliberately hides its origins as Hitler's vacation home, limits who is allowed to visit to keep neo-Nazi's away, is somehow a memorial to the Third Reich?

You really need to grab a dictionary and look up "memorial."

>>30213456
>traitors to the union
according to who, the union? the victors?

>>30206756
>hurr durr nihilism guys

1/10 bait made me reply

>>30213655
You should really look up the definition of the word traitor

>>30208089
Cool story anon, sincerely.

>>30213663
and you should really look up a valid counter

>>30213580
>You cannot both be an American, and take up arms against America with the intent of breaking up the United States.

Sounds a lot like how America was born, anon.

>>30213652

>Implying

They would have leveled the fucker if they didn't want people to visit it. If you don't know what it is, you aren't going there.

>>30213663
Our founding fathers were traitors. History is written by the victors, this should be no surprise to you at this point in Human history.

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>>30213714
>Truth levels critical

>>30213456
>traitors to the Union, who engaged in open warfare against the lawful government.
10/10 bait i'm still fucking mad

>hey guys these fucking northerners are telling us what we can and can't do when they don't understand how our states work in the south, it's pretty fucked up
>well tell them to fuck off
>we tried
>they did military shit
>well fucking shoot back
and the civil war started

>>30208761
Lol. More operator than you'll ever be.

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>>30213580
Shut up faggot.
The men who actually fought and died in that war forgave their enemies and allowed them their memorials.

YOU some cuck faggot millennial do not get to second guess those veterans and their path to peace based on the notions put in your head by your Marxist professor.

>>30213627
How hard is it? The Confederacy was not attempting to overturn the government of the United States. When Lee began his pivot south in Pennsylvania, it wasn't with the intent of taking Washington and having Jefferson Davis named President of the United States. It was to make the US capitulate in the same way as the US and it's allies made the United Kingdom capitulate in 1783.

The Confederacy were states either in open revolt with the intention of breaking away from the US (which means they had rejected being Americans,) OR it was a foreign power, separate from the United States, which was engaging in war against the United States (which means they were Americans, but no more.)

It's a zero sum game. You cannot be one and the other at the same time.

>>30205015
>implying you should be afraid of POGs walking around a monument

>>30205368
I Did Marching Band in College and High School. I can personally attest that this shit is a lot harder than it looks.

Maintaining perfect posture is just a matter of having your body settle into it, but marching properly, standing stone-cold still, and doing the same thing - perfectly - every single time for hours gets really, really tiring.

Now add heat, sun, shitty weather, retarded tourists, and whatever the fuck else life throws at you that day.

>>30213743
>who engaged in open warfare against

Uh, the Union attacked them first.

If you're mad, you're seriously retarded and nothing but a contributor to the fucked up situation we're in now. Although they were faggot democraps that wanted their slaves, they WERE constitutionally-minded in their pursuit of their own rights to dictate their own shit for themselves, as we're supposed to do per what our founding fathers wrote.

>tl;dr, you're a statist bitch and don't deserve real freedom

>>30213791
>Marching Band

Me breda. I did that in high school and enjoyed it.

>TFW will never again march in full uniform with trusty trombone at the ready

>>30213792
None of that shit matters.
It doesn't matter who started shit, the point is the people of the time FINISHED it, and put it behind them. Idiots in 2016 have no business getting personally offended and indignant about history that doesn't effect them just so they can virtue signal about how bad they think the dead institution of American slavery is.

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>>30213456
>Yfw when Yankee new yorker still has two allman brothers shirts with confederate flag on before all the Confederate flag related shit.

Can't find this shirt anywhere anymore =(

>>30213743
Yep

>Congress passes laws
>President signs laws
>Southern states get butthurt
>Southern states try to block laws
>Southern states lose
>Southern states rebel
>Southern states lose again

They ignored the Constitution of the United States. You know, that most important document which lays out how the lawful government of the United States works? They engaged in open rebellion. They cast aside being Americans, and instead chose to be Confederates.

And I appreciate that you think it's phenomenal bait. The truth usually is to the ignorant.

>>30205368
I've heard it's a very difficult spot to get, and a lot of them come from Combat Arms units

>>30213792
>Uh, the Union attacked them first.
Fort Sumter, you drooling imbecile.

>>30213824
Why the fuck do you care so goddamn much? Did a Confederate steal your girlfriend?

>>30213778
I didn't know 40 was millenial. I sure as hell didn't know that the USAF Academy was run by Marxists. Thank's for informing me.

Then again, coming from some edgy teenager who thinks that "cuck" means "anyone that disagrees with me" really tells me more about you than anything else. Back to /b/ with you, son.

>>30213824
>They ignored the Constitution of the United States

No, they didn't. The Constitution fucking allowed for what they did, just in case everything went to shit on the Fed level and the new United States turned out just as bad as prior England. It was a way for individual states to preserve their rights in the face of Fed bullshit.

>>30213860
> I sure as hell didn't know that the USAF Academy was run by Marxists.
Then clearly you haven't been paying attention.

>n again, coming from some edgy teenager who thinks that "cuck" means "anyone that disagrees with me"
Not at all. I think cuck means someone who approves of his nation's historical monuments being vandalized because they offend Marxists in 2016.

>>30204304
In this day in age there is no way a guard could use a bladed weapon against an attacker without it looking like excessive force.

>>30213843
No I care because I grew up in the US, in the deep south (as I said before, Sumter SC,) and never understood why in such a great nation that so many pathetic people practically worshiped the idea of a failed nation, a lesser creature, and scorned the United States. The US *is* the greatest country in the world, and wields power greater than any other nation-state in all of human history, whereas the Confederacy, at its peak, was formally recognized by nobody, and only recognized by two powers as a "belligerent" to the US.

>>30213824
>england creates colonies
>england passes laws
>colonies get butthurt
>colonies try to block laws
>colonies lose
>colonies rebel
>colonies win

oh would you look at that

>>30207320
The army astronaut badge.

>>30204304
national cemeteries are under the jurisdiction of the department of veterans affairs. at least the national park service could send a park ranger.

>>30213943
If you can't understand why the idea of Americans fighting and dying for something they believed in resonates with Americans then you might be autistic.

>>30213870
Please, point out to me which Article allows for secession. I'll further point out that the anti-Federalists used that argument to oppose the Constitution, with Patrick Henry himself saying that the Federal government would strip the sovereign rights from each of the states.

>>30213896
Hmm, so the Academy that is most currently being criticized for being too strongly Christian, and too strongly nationalistic, is being run by Marxists. Yeah, somehow I don't think you know what you're talking about.

And cuck? You really are only semi-literate. Let me educate you a second. Cuck is the adjective for a cuckold, who is someone who's been cheated on by their wife.

And no, I don't approve of my nation's historical monuments being vandalized. Again, I'm an American, born in the United States of America. Those were Confederate monuments, of the Confederate States of America. Not my country, nor my nation.

>>30204244
>tomb of the unknown welfare queen

how is it that you fucks continue to find ways to make us pay for you even after death?

>>30213992
>people fighting to the death to not be Americans
Sounds pretty gay

>>30213943
becuase right or wrong, AT LEAST THEY TRIED

which is more than you'll ever do in life

>>30213925
>A marine giving a shit about avoiding excessive force.

We have a whole set of laws about not letting soldiers operate in the US because they are Very Not Cops.

>>30205306
If it's necessary to march around there 24/7, could they at least build some sort of cover over it?

The DC area had massive snow (for this area) last winter. How could they maintain their drill during all that?

>>30214105
It's called a shovel, friend.

>>30213947
Point to me the war memorials in the UK honoring the American Revolution.

>>30213992
Again, I repeat myself. If Confederate troops were Americans in revolt, they don't deserve honor. You don't honor traitors. The UK (as I mentioned a line above) doesn't have any memorials to the greatness of the Minuteman, and if the US had lost, I'm damned sure there wouldn't be any memorials to them here stateside. If Confederate troops were belligerents worthy of being honored, then they can be honored, but weren't Americans. We do honor our fallen enemies. US military cemeteries have a few dozen German troops, POWs who died in American camps. They get a gravestone, but they don't fly the flag of the Reich, or even mention it. They're honored dead, fallen men, but their failed cause is not even mentioned.

By using your logic, a 40 foot tall statue to Santa Ana belongs in the middle of San Antonio, because after all, he was a true Mexican, which is what Texas was born as, and his men fought and died for something they believed in.

>>30213836
>confederates declare their own sovereign nation
>federal troops now trespassing on southern sovereign land (there was no such thing as federal land back then)
>confederate government offers free passage for troops back to the north
>lincoln refuses in order to incite war

fuck off with your pro-lincoln revisionism

>>30214022
I am well aware of what cuckold means. If you can't see why the word has gained purchase as an insult for people who are passive in the face of their race/country/etc. getting fucked then not only are you autistic you're retarded as well.
>Those were Confederate monuments, of the Confederate States of America. Not my country, nor my nation.
Except it is your country because like you just said they were formally recognized by nobody.

I repeat my earlier statement.
The men who actually fought and died fighting those Confederates were able to accept them as their country-men after the war and did not begrudge them their monuments. Who the fuck are you to think you know better than them?

>>30213943
You are quite honestly the biggest bootsucking faggot I've ever seen.

why is /k/ filled with such fuckheads? yankee loving, jackboot cleaning faggots.

the US is a hollow shell of what America was supposed to be. we are the pinnacle of evil and tyranny.

>>30214155
Turns out that America belongs to all Americans, and people can't unilaterally take parts of it.

>>30214062
I'm retiring next year from 20 years in uniform. I've not tried, I've succeeded. They, on the other hand, died for a failed and illegal cause.

>Because right or wrong, Pablo Escobar tried!
>Because right or wrong, the Nazis tried!

>>30214122
You're a fucking idiot.

Labeling them traitors because the NORTH chose to divide lines and impose THEIR way on the South.

"Oh you guys want to have state's rights and liberty? Oh you guys don't want to sell your soul to a federal reserve?"

>be me, America 1776
>yay we got rid of a CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENT THAT FORCED OUR COUNTRY TO ABIDE BY THEIR RULES

I mean fucking seriously. We fight off the Brits to get rid of ONE centralized power, then the civil war rolls around and the NORTH wants to call the South TRAITORS?

The north killed America. I honestly hope all of you yank lovers die.

>>30214122
>The UK (as I mentioned a line above) doesn't have any memorials to the greatness of the Minuteman, and if the US had lost, I'm damned sure there wouldn't be any memorials to them here stateside.

We are not the United Kingdom.

>By using your logic, a 40 foot tall statue to Santa Ana belongs in the middle of San Antonio, because after all, he was a true Mexican, which is what Texas was born as, and his men fought and died for something they believed in.

We are not Mexico either.
Serious question are you autistic anon?

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>>30213456
You mean the war of northern aggression, cuck?

>>30214250
You say that, but I don't recall getting cucked out of Vicksburg and Atlanta.

>>30214199
It's funny because I think Nazis deserve memorials too and it would harm no one if a swastika flew over the graves of men who fought and died under it.

>>30205613

Jesu that was lame as fuck. And what's up with those rifle flourishes he did afterwards? I'm pretty sure those aren't a normal part of his patrolling routine. Dude made me remember Napoleon Dynamite for some reason.

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>Crying over monuments to traitors getting defaced

>>30214271
Nah, fuck them

whose tomb are their guarding?

>>30213783
>Sentinels, all volunteers, are considered to be the best of the elite 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment

>Infantry
>POGs

Choose one

>>30214175
>Except it is your country because like you just said they were formally recognized by nobody.

So, you're of the mind that the Confederates were Americans in revolt then. Which means they had committed treason. You don't honor traitors. Show me the memorials of Richard Hanson, Aldrich Ames, the Rosenbergs. They don't exist, because you don't honor traitors.

As to the Americans who allowed the traitors to post their monuments, do you believe that those men would have known that their decision would lead a great number of Americans to continue to believe in and rally around the Confederate cause? If they'd known that, do you think they'd have allowed it? There's a reason that places like Kehlsteinhaus have had their histories scrubbed. The owners of the Eagle's Nest know it will draw neo-Nazis, which is why it's limited access and the tour (if they vet you and allow you in,) is decidedly anti-Nazi. They recognize that it's a potential source of inspiration for a wrong-headed ideology and take steps to prevent that.

>>30214195
>Turns out that America belongs to all Americans

This might well be the dumbest line I have read on this board this year, and that's saying something.

While it is true that the state of South Carolina had an accord with the federal government to cede the land of Fort Sumter, that became null and void the day South Carolina seceded. By parity of logic, lands ceded by agreement by the Mexican province of Texas for use by the Mexican central government need to be honored after Texas declared independence.

>>30214328
>do you believe that those men would have known that their decision would lead a great number of Americans to continue to believe in and rally around the Confederate cause? If they'd known that, do you think they'd have allowed it?

Who exactly is rallying around the Confederate cause anon? Is the New Confederate Army of the Potomac massing in Virginia?

Why are you such a drama queen anon?

>>30214364
>that became null and void the day South Carolina seceded

If you win the war, that is correct.

If you lose, people laugh at you.

>>30214122
none that I can think of, but you're detracting from the point that they aren't traitors.

>>30214240
>1776, revolution to rid ourselves of a monarchy
>1783, revolution ends, Colonies free, Articles of Confederation put in place, placing State sovereignty at the pinnacle of power
>1788, Constitution ratified, Articles of Confederation abolished, placing the Federal government in supremacy over state sovereignty

Seems you need to brush up on your history. I strongly suggest you read the anti-Federalist papers.

>>30214248
Indeed, we're not the UK, nor Mexico. But by the arguments of the pro-Confederate memorial crowd, the UK should have memorials to our troops, and Texas should have memorials to the Mexicans. After all, as >>30214062 said, "AT LEAST THEY TRIED"

>>30214250
No, I mean the American Civil War. Additionally, that bikini offends me and should be removed.

>>30214271
We have provided graves for those dead Nazis on American soil, but they don't get the symbols of their failed cause. You can honor the man, if they're honorable, without honoring their cause. Again though, you don't honor traitors.

>>30214328
>The owners of the Eagle's Nest know it will draw neo-Nazis, which is why it's limited access and the tour (if they vet you and allow you in,) is decidedly anti-Nazi. They recognize that it's a potential source of inspiration for a wrong-headed ideology and take steps to prevent that.

and yet somehow neo-nazis and their "wrong-headed ideology" still exists despite such decisive actions...
:^)

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>>30214155
>Southerners fired first on Federal Troops who posed no threat save for occupying a fort.
>Uh, the Union attacked them first.

Come on Anon.

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>>30214369

>>30214422
That fucking faggot

>>30214369
Have you not read any of the recent 'the south will rise again!' threads or noticed the counter-culture 'L-LEL FUCKING KEKS NIGGERS MAN' sentiment on the rise?

>>30214422
Fucking ruined everything

>>30214431
It's not like that was ever the real confederate battle flag.

It was the South Carolina battle flag. The first people to use it as a general symbol of the south were the KKK as they were busy killing people for registering black voters.

>>30214313
>posting a war criminal like he's a hero

Go figure, yankee piece of trash exalting another yankee piece of trash

>>30214369
You don't pay attention to politics, do you? There are active neo-Confederate secession movements in the US. Hell, when President Obama was elected the second time, there were 20 states whose citizens actually petitioned the President to allow them to secceed. It's a pretty common thing in Texas for formal bills to be presented to the legislature requiring them to vote down another attempt at succession. And the fact that we're even having this discussion proves that the Americans who forgave their treasonous brothers made a mistake. Imagine that, people (an entire nation,) can make a mistake.

>>30214394
It's not detracting, it's highlighting it. In the UK, our founders committed high treason. As Franklin said "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." The UK doesn't honor traitors. Since then, we've become closer than any two nations really have a business being and they've honored our war dead since then, but not of that war.

>>30214395
Crockpot of shit. Kys.

>>30214388

Win or lose, historical facts and legal details do not change. This is important because Lincoln apologists claim aggrieved status for the Fort Sumter "attack".

Another detail against the apologists: Fort Sumter was empty on the day of South Carolinian secession, the fort itself was incomplete. A rogue federal officer took his men there and occupied it without orders. That in itself can be construed as a hostile act against a sovereign nation on the part of the Union government, because Lincoln went along with this act and attempted to resupply this rogue officer and his men multiple times.

>>30214464
>War criminal

Keep crying traitor scum. The only criminals were the ones that believed humans should be property

>>30214395
>the UK should have memorials to our troops
Why?
None of the battles our troops fought in occurred on their soil.

>and Texas should have memorials to the Mexicans
Why?
There were no Mexicans in Texas to build those memorials after the war.

>We have provided graves for those dead Nazis on American soil, but they don't get the symbols of their failed cause. You can honor the man, if they're honorable, without honoring their cause. Again though, you don't honor traitors.

and you can also acknowledge the cause they fought for rather than pretending it didn't happen. The world would not magically end if a swastika flew over their graves, they would not rise up from their moldering tombs to wreak their revenge upon the living, and neo-nazis will not suddenly decide they care more about visiting Nazi graves if there is a swastika flag there.

>it's wrong to have a Nazi flag flying on American soil!
So fly an American flag over it to show we beat them and made them submit if it makes you feel less insecure.

>>30214478
>win or lose

This is never true in international law.

If you try and take somebodies land, that claim is only valid if you back it up with military victory.

Period. Full stop.

Those that can, do. Those that can't explain why international law was on their side and they're a victim.

>>30214419
>no threat

According to whom? You? This fort overlooked Charleston harbor, a vital Confederate trade port.

Would Washington have tolerated a British occupation of Fort Clinton?

>>30214155
>>federal troops now trespassing on southern sovereign land (there was no such thing as federal land back then)

Declaring yourself sovereign doesn't make you so. Federal troops are still federal troops. Federal forts are still federal forts. The soldiers at Fort Sumter didn't magically fall under the jurisdiction of South Carolina just because South Carolina said so.

> Secedes for six fucking days.
> Loses patience and starts a fucking war.

South Carolina confirmed for idiot cucks who couldn't figure out a peaceful negotiated solution to that shit.

>>30214500

Seriously, they couldn't even go an entire week without starting a war nobody wanted.

What the fuck, South Carolina?

>>30214498
I'm not saying you aren't within your rights to attack a strategic position first, but don't act like you didn't strike first.

>>30214422
Yes I'm quite sure the Union veterans would change their minds about allowing their former adversaries the dignity of honoring their dead just because some loser who shot up a church was seen posing with the Confederate flag.

After all 9 dead people clearly outweighs all the Union soldiers dead or maimed during the war that veterans managed to put behind them in the name of peace.

>>30214434
>he can't handle the bantz
>he thinks hating niggers is a purely Confederate phenomenon

>>30214498
Yeah man, those Federals were just firing on every ship that entered Charleston before they were fired upon. They REALLY started the war with their act of violence!

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>>30214446
(Anti-Confederate guy here)
No, that particular pattern was first used by the Army of Northern Virginia, and was patterned after the South Carolinian Secessionist flag (pic related.) It was then adopted by the Army of Tennessee, the Confederate Navy, and finally standardized as the Confederate Battle Flag in all field armies in 1864. The one that particular prick is holding is the 2nd Naval Jack, as it's rectangular.

>>30214471
>all secession movements are Confederate in origin
>not constructing Confederate war memorials would magically cause people in America to like Obama

Now that's some magical thinking.

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>mfw a southern apologist acts like slavery wasn't the largest contributing cause of the war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcy7qV-BGF4

>>30214534
I'm actually interested to see how that would work out if I could get a time machine.

Because the South was essentially rewarded for starting the war. They were allowed to continue to finance their economy off of the sweat of people with no rights. The only thing that changed is that chattel slavery was replaced with more generalized political repression by paramilitary groups.

On the other hand, the average northerner wouldn't have cared as long as it didn't undermine the democracy or economy of the north.

That's one of those things for Professor Farnsworth's what-if machine.

Anyway, the CSA was a completely evil state and deserved to be exterminated from the earth just for being there. I'm glad we're dishonoring their war dead, poisoning their history, and generally spitting on their graves. And there's nothing you can do about it because the north controls your culture and education, and if they decide that your history is problematic and triggering, you're going to suck it up like a good little bitch because the Fortune 500 has all the real power in this country, and they're based out of New York.

>>30214495

You seem to be the confusing the law with "might makes right". They are not the same thing.

>>30213860
>TFW you arent the only person over 30 on 4chan.
>TFW this fucker is also ex USAF.
>TFW...Academy? Ew. ew. no. Guess we all cant be enlisted, and make up for a lack of paycheck and power with extra salt.

I...I'm going to keep on living, for at least tonight. Thank you good sir. thank you. a video for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZuhYJynSk8

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>>30214613
Hey Airman.
[spoiler]Retired at O3 three years ago.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]AFROTC.[/spoiler]

>>30214584
I'm a northerner and a New Yorker you faggot.
God you disgust me.
>the CSA was a completely evil state and deserved to be exterminated from the earth just for being there
there is not a single crime the CSA committed that the USA is not also guilty of.
>I'm glad we're dishonoring their war dead, poisoning their history, and generally spitting on their graves
and I will not be the least bit surprised when you're glad that the USA's war dead are dishonored, our history is poisoned and people spit on American graves.

Anyone who has paid any attention to 21st century politics has noticed that people who burn Confederate flags quickly move on to burning American ones.

>>30214611
Nigga this isn't Judge Judy.

International Law is based 90% on de facto circumstances, because any sort of ruling will have to be enforced in blood.

Chechnya had a better case for statehood, and they were 130 years later, and they still got crushed. Because no country gives up territory that they don't absolutely have to.

If you want independence, you hope that your host country is democratic and try to negotiate a peaceful settlement. If that doesn't work, the other guy is bigger than you, and nobody cares, then you're shit out of luck.

>>30214500
>Declaring yourself sovereign doesn't make you so

Why not? Revolutionary congress did this. Texas did this. Secession was legal in 1861, the supreme court outlawed it after the war.

If the act of secession was legal, then the federal troops were trespassing on sovereign Confederate land, and Lincoln's re-supply missions were acts of aggression.

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>>30213580
>Germany Doesn't have monuments to the Reich does it?

Thats because Hitler enacted a political take over of the entire country and proceeded to drown all of Europe in war and commit extremely heinous wartimes with said country backing him. Your strawman won't work. Germany is rightfully ashamed of WWII. While the civil war was some sections of the country splintering off because they felt they weren't being represented and treated fairly, and being attacked for it. Just like the revolutionary war. Except this time the rebels didn't win.

I don't see how you can call yourself an American without understanding the civil war. Everyone in it was American in the end. The South weren't the bad guys nor were they inherently monsters, merely misguided by today's standards.

And I'm a fucking yankee doodle.

>>30214644

If you are not interested in debating the legal circumstances (because you have no clue), just say so instead of trying to pass off your might-makes-rightism as some sort of legitimate legal doctrine.

>>30214640
To be honest, I think it would reflect badly upon us if we were any more lenient with Americans who threatened our democracy compared to foreigners.

A country must defend their laws the same way they'd defend the city wall.

But yeah, I'm from Virginia, born and raised, and I love it here.

It doesn't change the fact that chattel slavery is inherently evil, and in modern international law actually constitutes a jus cogens violation and a grounds for an invasion.

It doesn't change the fact that the CSA was created to perpetuate slavery, and that the Union managed to eliminate slavery over a large portion of the world.

The Confederates did far more evil to this country than the Nazis or the USSR ever did. We must destroy their very soul.

>>30214630
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjJmZt_KiSg
Retired 2 years ago. feels good bro.

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>>30214640
>Anyone who has paid any attention to 21st century politics has noticed that people who burn Confederate flags quickly move on to burning American ones.
Ain't that the truth.

>>30214660
>Thats because Hitler enacted a political take over of the entire country

The same way the Confederates seized large portions of America and placed it under martial law.

>proceeded to drown all of Europe in war

check

> commit extremely heinous warcrimes

Slavery is such a thing.

>with said country backing him

check

(Going to hang a trip because apparently some folks think I'm posting pictures of the Charleston shooter...)

>>30214476
What part? Explain, or are you just a petulant child?

>>30214478
Fort Sumter was a Federal installation, owned by the Federal government. Just because the state of South Carolina said "MINE!" doesn't make it so.

>>30214487
>and you can also acknowledge the cause they fought for rather than pretending it didn't happen. The world would not magically end if a swastika flew over their graves, they would not rise up from their moldering tombs to wreak their revenge upon the living, and neo-nazis will not suddenly decide they care more about visiting Nazi graves if there is a swastika flag there.

Why bother acknowledging it beyond "it failed?" Look at the argument occurring in Louisville, KY, regarding the monument on the University's grounds. The legal argument that the Sons of Confederate Veterans (remember what I said about worshiping a failed cause?) was that moving the monument would be illegal under Federal and State law (which is untrue.) The verbal argument, used in the press by the SCV was that this was "political correctness gone awry" and an "attempt to erase our history." Again, individuals who continue to worship at that soiled altar.

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>>30214660
>The South weren't the bad guys

>>30214704

>That gif

What the FUCK

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>>30204919
Heres the one in Westminster Abbey

>>30214022
Ffs you're missing the entire point you whiny little bitch.

They died fighting under the confederate flag. The memorial there is for the soldiers. The insignia is there to show who/what the fought for.

You're guilt or dissatisfaction doesn't come in to it. You can't have a memorial without saying who they fought for, or who they were. Otherwise it'd be "here is such and such, who died during the civil war." "But who did they die for?" "Who fucking knows? They stopped saying in case some faggot gets offended over history."

That is literally you right now. Stop bitching over it. If you deface a war memorial, you're a gutless piece of shit. End of fucking story. They were still Americans, I don't give a shit whether you think so or not. They died on American soil, fighting an American war. They still have families in America. So why the fuck shouldn't they get a memorial? Because they lost?

>m-muh usaf education
And yet you're still a fucking moron.

>>30214722
>Fort Sumter was a Federal installation, owned by the Federal government. Just because the state of South Carolina said "MINE!" doesn't make it so.

The agreement between South Carolina and the federal government on the Fort Sumter land was an agreement between a State and that federal government, when the former ceased to be a State within that federal framework, that agreement is nullified.

>>30214766
...that's not how it works

>>30214659
>Why not? Revolutionary congress did this. Texas did this. Secession was legal in 1861, the supreme court outlawed it after the war.

That's not what the Supreme Court does. Congress outlaws things, by passing laws against them.

The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. When the Supreme Court ruled that secession was illegal, it meant that Lincoln was right all along.

On top of that, the three branches of government are equal in authority. The President can also interpret the Constitution. Unless the Supreme Court rules against him, his interpretation stands.

The only aggression, the only unconstitutional act, was the secession. It was entirely South Carolina's responsibility to find a peaceful result to their transgression, and they fucked it up and started a war instead.

>>30214766
>when the former ceased to be a State within that federal framework

You can't unilaterally do this without a war.

In literally any society or legal framework.

I'd put money down that Washington would have done the same thing. A republic can't survive by repeatedly splitting in half.

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>>30214660
>Thats because Hitler enacted a political take over of the entire country and proceeded to drown all of Europe in war and commit extremely heinous wartimes with said country backing him
>Germany is rightfully ashamed of WWII

See here's my problem with German shame. It leaves a gaping hole in their military heritage where people have to pretend that nothing happened.

Way back in 2006 or so there was a scandal over German vehicles in Afghanistan having palm tree emblems on them reminiscent of the Afrikakorps. German shame means that Germans have to pretend that Germany has no military heritage fighting in desert regions because Nazis are bad even thought the Afrikacorps is pretty much the least offensive Nazi military unit in history.

I think that's silly.
In my opinion, they should be allowed to have at least some pride and we shouldn't act like they were all ax-murdering pedophiles during the war. Let the atrocity criminals rightfully be tarred but leave the rest some dignity.

>>30214659
>Why not? Revolutionary congress did this.
The Revolutionary congress made themselves sovereign not by declaration, but by force of arms.

>Texas did this.
Texas made itself sovereign not by declaration, but by force of arms.

The only right of sovereignty is the right of molon labe. The Confederacy failed its test.

>>30214681
>the Union managed to eliminate slavery over a large portion of the world.

What school did you go to?
I need to know this so that if by some weird twist of fate I have children and wind up in Virginia I know whether or not I have to homeschool them.

>>30214722
>The legal argument that the Sons of Confederate Veterans (remember what I said about worshiping a failed cause?) was that moving the monument would be illegal under Federal and State law (which is untrue.) The verbal argument, used in the press by the SCV was that this was "political correctness gone awry" and an "attempt to erase our history." Again, individuals who continue to worship at that soiled altar.

So what?
They're not hurting you. Leave them be.

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>>30214843
>confederates literally live in a bizzarro dimension where the amount of slaves in the west didn't fall considerably between 1860 and 1865

Enjoy being cucked by BLM and retreating even further into nationalist delusion.

>>30214860
>confederates literally live in a bizzarro dimension where the amount of slaves in the west didn't fall considerably between 1860 and 1865

Considering that roughly 4 million slaves, 40% of all the slaves imported to the entirety of Americas were imported to Brazil ( vs.roughly 380,000 imported to North America) and Brazil didn't end slavery until 1888 it clearly didn't.

Furthermore the United States is not "a large portion of the world".

>>30213792
>Uh, the Union attacked them first.

Yes, they assaulted the State of South Carolina's cannonballs with their fortress wall.

>>30214932
It's a large portion of the part that matters.

You'll notice that about 10 countries produce most of the patents, most of the research papers, and most of the cultural and artistic output.

When Brazil has even 10% as much impact on human history as the US does, I'll start caring about their race relations.

Also, did the abolition of slavery in the US influence abolition in Brazil?

The timing and geography of it make sense to me, but I'm not up on my Pedros.

>>30214807
>When the Supreme Court ruled that secession was illegal, it meant that Lincoln was right all along.

Congress did not pass any law on the matter. The SC ruled in 1869 that secession was unconstitutional in the context of post-bellum validity of commercial agreements made by a citizen with a Confederate state government. That ruling does not have any relevance to the legal situation in 1861.

By your argument, segregation was actually illegal even though it was legally applied for over a century.

>>30214613
Heh, I actually found 4chan after coming back from Kadena at 28, back right after it was launched.
>YFW you remember when it was /a/nime and /b/ was titled "Everything Else."
I'm on two weeks leave, going to enjoy it and stay up way past my bedtime. Goodnight to you though.

>>30214660
Not a strawman at all. Deliberately excluding a part of an argument doesn't mean I've built a false one, just a different one. I choose to avoid statements on morality because morality changes.

But now that you've opened that door, what were the reasons that those states that engaged in revolt listed? What was the ONE unifying point that every single Confederate state noted that the Federal government was attacking? Slavery. That was the crux issue that drove the feelings of inequality. As you put it, the Confederates were "merely misguided by today's standards."

And that's where our argument also lay. We recognize, now with no question, that slavery was wrong (again, this is from a legal standpoint, because I can't prove it from a moral one, although I *feel* that it is wrong.) So why not correct this? Remove those memorials to something which is now demonstrably wrong, (both slavery AND the failed movement that was the Confederacy, which was rooted in slavery, which is again demonstrably LEGALLY wrong,) and move them somewhere appropriate where it can be studied as the historical oddity and failure that it was? Why have monuments venerating it?

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>>30213943
>be white boy, growing up in deep south
>grow up in smalltown USA
>never seen a black man
>get to age of 18-21
>some war is happening
>sure, ill join
>fight for a while
>lose
>die on battlefield
>atleastidiedformycountry.mp4
>several years later
>people pissing on my grave telling me im a racist
>mfw

>>30214979
If there's a heaven and a hell, you'd be too busy to care.

If there's not, you'd be too not busy to care.

>>30214714
>Siezed control of country
>Country backing them
Pick one

>I didn't know slave states were in the Union and slavery should be a war crimes even though it was in the private sector
That's your post

>>30214833

So if British said "fine" and left after Congress declared independence, then it is really an illegitimate declaration? Jesus Christ.

>>30215003
>Siezed control of country

You know, there wouldn't have been a hell of a lot of a war if the slaves got to vote on independence or not.

Creating an undemocratic state over a century doesn't make it any more valid than doing it in 6 months.

>Country backing them

The CSA was synonymous with war throughout its entire existence.

>I didn't know slave states were in the Union

Funny how that ended rapidly after the CSA fell.

>slavery should be a war crimes even though it was in the private sector

That one isn't my opinion, that's established international law. It was one of our legal justifications for the invasion of Afghanistan.

>>30214957
>You'll notice that about 10 countries produce most of the patents, most of the research papers, and most of the cultural and artistic output.
What do patents have to do with number of slaves anon?

>Also, did the abolition of slavery in the US influence abolition in Brazil?
Did the abolition of slavery in the British Empire influence abolition in the US?
Which do you honestly think had a greater impact on ending the slave trade, our war that only affected us, or the British using their navy to shut down slave trade routes and seize slave ships?

Look I'm not trying to shit on America here but claiming that the Union somehow played a huge role in dismantling the hundreds years old Triangle trade, you're a fucking moron.

I'm honestly amazed that this conversation is evening happening. The Civil War was the single bloodiest war our nation has ever fought. More Americans died in the Civil War than in World War II, for causes that pitted brother against brother. The men who died on both sides are still Americans, the difference being that one side fought to free others while the other fought to protect their way of life. The dead on both sides deserve to be remembered, and their causes deserve to be remembered. Because if we don't remember, if we forget what led to that pain and suffering in the first place, we open the door to repeating it.

>>30214977
>I choose to avoid statements on morality because morality changes.
and yet your entire argument rests on the statement that it's wrong to honor "traitors", even though traitor is a morally loaded term.

>>30215043
>What do patents have to do with number of slaves anon

It has to do with the historical relevance.

Brazil doesn't matter. America does.

The question of whether the institution of slavery continues in the United States determines the political and economic future of the country, which decides how the world wars turn out, or when vaccination and antibiotics are invented, or whether the internet exists, or whether Japan gets a-bombed and the result is anime imageboards.

But yeah, being that the US was the largest economy in the new world, I suspect it'd have a significant international role.

I'm more interested in the domestic effects in the US. Negroes are merely the instrument of America's self destructive tendencies. Slavery is a form of decadence, and I can't see it helping the world any having that shit rotting the US from the inside.

>>30215057
>their causes deserve to be remembered

As a warning, sure. Not this romanticized crap the south has been pulling. If you want an example, look at the Vietnam memorial. It honors the people, not the war

>>30215094
That's a people problem, and is a symptom of the education system. Not a symptom of war memorials.

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>>30215061
Liberals are absolutely fucking retarded when it comes to all things "morality"

First, they claim that they don't have to hearken to your moral qualms, because they don't believe in subjective morality.

Then, they ass-pull their own morality based on TMZ and Saturday Night Live skits

Then, they attempt to enforce it as a subjective, universal morality.

They're the dumbest fucking hypocrites on the planet. YES ALL OF THEM.

>>30215008
>So if British said "fine" and left after Congress declared independence, then it is really an illegitimate declaration? Jesus Christ.

If the British had conceded without a fight? Yeah, it would have been legitimate. The best way to win a war is convincing the other guy to give up without actually fighting it.

In any case, the Confederacy couldn't convince the Union to give up without fighting, and they couldn't force the Union to accept their secession by defeating them in battle. So, their sovereignty was never established.

Legitimacy doesn't even enter into it, since the Union didn't recognize them, and the Confederacy couldn't force them to.

> Comes on k
> Says secession can be legitimate without warfare

Try to be a little less cuck, anon.

>>30205368
when i visited the guard that was present was a green beret who had been deployed.

>>30214755
>They died fighting under the confederate flag. The memorial there is for the soldiers. The insignia is there to show who/what the fought for.
>You're guilt or dissatisfaction doesn't come in to it. You can't have a memorial without saying who they fought for, or who they were. Otherwise it'd be "here is such and such, who died during the civil war." "But who did they die for?" "Who fucking knows? They stopped saying in case some faggot gets offended over history."

Not missing the point at all. If they're "all Americans," then they shouldn't have to worry about which side they died for, right? They're all Americans. If people insist on denoting them as Confederate troops, then they cease to be Americans, and are Confederates (or if they are still Americans, they're traitors and AGAIN, we don't erect monuments to traitors.)

>>30214766
I asked for this before, not sure if you're the same anon or not, but point out which Article in the Constitution allows for secession, or which notes state sovereignty is superior to Federal law. South Carolina had no legal standpoint to secede. The only way that South Carolina to leave that framework, as you put it, would be to cease to exist as a state.

>>30214959
>By your argument, segregation was actually illegal even though it was legally applied for over a century.

That's actually how it works. Plessy v Ferguson [1896,] held by the USSC, ruled that segregation was legally correct. Brown v Topeka Board of Education [1954,] (without changing any laws,) stated that the Fuller court had erred in Plessy, that segregation was legally wrong. For 58 years, it turns out that the US was operating in the wrong. It happens, and that's why later courts are allowed to reverse earlier courts, to correct wrongs in Constitutional interpretation when they're discovered and brought to light.

>>30215079
>It has to do with the historical relevance.
>Brazil doesn't matter. America does.
America of 2016 is not the America of the 19th century.
Brazil of 2016 is not the Brazil of the 19th century.

Brazil of the 19th century had a monopoly on the world's rubber production. They were a hell of a lot more important than America.

>>30215028
>Slaves... Voting
The North didn't allow slaves to vote either, both sides allowed free black men to vote however
>CSA is synonymous with war
So would the U.S had it lost the revolution, since it was a revolt and all that nonsense
>I didn't know Lincoln offered to allow slavery had the south returned peacefully
You.
>I'm gonna compare 2 events in 2 different parts of the world 140 years apart.
By your logic we should consider Britain, Spain, Portugal, People of Dutch descent liable for commuting genocide 600 years ago

>>30215132
I doubt that honestly.

The US was already the world's largest economy by like 1870.

It was already generating a huge amount of technological progress that Brazil simply wasn't.

Within 50 years of the cessation of hostilities, they'd be the kingmakers in Europe, Within 75 they'd be saving western civilization.

>>30215130
>they're traitors and AGAIN, we don't erect monuments to traitors.)
and yet clearly we do, as the monuments exist.

So given the choice between believing you and my "lying eyes", I will stick with my Mk. 1 eyeballs over the opinions of some butthurt faggot with inconsistent concepts of morality.

>>30215114
It's a southern problem where they pretend they did nothing wrong and were even right. It's gone on for a hundred years too long

>>30215061
>traitors
Traitor is not a morally loaded term, unless you're attaching some sort of emotional connotation to it. I don't. It's a legal designation of someone who has committed treason.

>>30206936
thems some purdy fucking rifles

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>>30204244
quick lads, post near changing of the guard videos

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1e-Ot6xWY

>>30215151
>The US was already the world's largest economy by like 1870.

That doesn't negate the fact that they had a monopoly on rubber for thirty years. America has the world's largest economy today too but that doesn't magically mean that Saudi Arabia ceases to be important and arguably more influential.

Technological progress is a red-herring, what happens in fifty years or 75 years is a red-herring. The fact remains. The bulk of the slaves in the New World were in Brazil, and the American civil war was only important for America.

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>mfw this thread

>>30215230
>American civil war was only important for America.
As is every other civil war excepting Vietnam because we just HAD to go stick our dick in that

>>30215196
Treason is also a morally loaded term as that implies a legitimate regime that is being betrayed.

> It's a legal designation of someone who has committed treason.

If we're going to play the legal game then none of the Confederates in question were traitors as only a handful of them were ever convicted of treason.

>>30215153
>and yet clearly we do, as the monuments exist
Did erect, not do. When was the last new pro-Confederate monument went up? From what I know, about a century ago.

And again, that doesn't change the root of the issue. Why do we have them at all? Confederate troops were either Americans (thus traitors, thus not deserving of a monument beyond their gravestone,) OR they were foreign belligerents who fought and deserve some recognition, but not monuments beyond their gravestones. The fact that Confederate supporters continue to insist both that Confederate troops were Americans AND that they were fighting for their freedom/for their country/for their way of life is the problem. The two are inherently incompatible. You cannot be both a loyal American, and take up arms against the United States.

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>>30215230
>that doesn't magically mean that Saudi Arabia ceases to be important and arguably more influential.
>Saudi Arabia ceases to be important and arguably more influential.
>more influential.

We've crossed the pale lads.

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>>30215263
Let's not forget that, according to this asshole, the entire United States is nothing but a treasonous sumabeech. What the South did to the US, the US did to the British.

Which is hilarious, because the cockroach of a human being probably jacks off to Thomas Jefferson.

>>30215290
>the US did to the British

No shit. That's why we call ourselves Americans and not Brits

While we're on the subject of revisionism and allohistorical shitflinging, might as well bring up something that's also /k/ related.

I personally think it still wouldn't have worked due to the CSA's comparatively low industrial capacity. But I don't have a time machine.

>>30215286
We're talking about a nation so important that our own government is covering up their connections with 9/11. A nation that is allowed to fund the spread of extremist Islam throughout the entire world and our own nation as well.

The entire world's collective tongue is jammed so far up their ass I'm tasting hummus.

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>>30215312
Fuck, forgot my image.

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>>30215311
Do you read posts before responding to them?

>>30215263
>Treason is also a morally loaded term as that implies a legitimate regime that is being betrayed.
So you're saying that in 1860, the duly elected President, a duly elected Congress, and a correctly appointed Supreme Court was *not* a legitimate regime, under the Constitution which governed the formation of it?

>If we're going to play the legal game then none of the Confederates in question were traitors as only a handful of them were ever convicted of treason.

Do you know the reason that Jefferson Davis and the rest of the Confederates were never tried for treason? Presidential pardon for the crime of treason. It was a tacit statement that they were traitors, but that the President saw fit that they should not be tried as such and were forgiven for the act. And those who were pardoned had to apply for the pardon, which was then given freely. For them to be pardoned, they had to admit to it, and then they were left to their own devices.

Also, thread limit reached and it's pushing 1 AM. I might be on leave, but I've also been up since 7. Thank you all for this thread, best one I've been in in a long time

>>30215331
Are you saying that in 1776, Britain decided in a democratic manner to recognize the United States as its own sovereign nation?

>>30215328
Do you understand that the reasons Americans don't call themselves British is because of the "treason" committed by the founding fathers

Or are you trying to say they weren't traitors because they were never convicted?

>>30215331
>So you're saying that in 1860, the duly elected President, a duly elected Congress, and a correctly appointed Supreme Court was *not* a legitimate regime, under the Constitution which governed the formation of it?

I'm saying that's an entirely a matter of opinion.

>the President saw fit that they should not be tried as such and were forgiven for the act

and once again you think you know better.

>>30206756
They also died so you could sit here fucking posting about what you think, so you could live free, fucking moron.

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>>30206796
>the ruling class

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>>30215320
That was a fucking great book

>>30208940
I'm now imagining some kind of fucking wood furniture M16A1 with all the not so important parts make out of brass and all the important parts chromed.