Could .40 S&W conceivably go the way of .38 Super, in that

>>28289430
If you want my opinion, the ammo will probably continue to be popular but fewer and fewer new guns will be made in it. I think .45 is going to decline too, just not as much.

>>28289430
9mm Does everything .40 s&w does except more. 9mm has better capacity and the recoil is more easily managed for getting more rounds on target.
9mm is better in every way. Sure you may be able to shoot .40 better, some people shoot different cartridges better. But 9mm is still, tactically, superior.

>>28289501
We already know that. OP is asking if .40 has a chance of staying in production despite that.

>>28289495
is probably right. There's plenty of fuddlore surrounding it ("it's like a 45 with almost 9mm capacity!") that it'll survive its falling out with police. I don't think the comparison to .38 Super is really fair, considering that the market the .40 came out in was completely different from the one that the .38 did.

>>28289571

>I don't think the comparison to .38 Super is really fair, considering that the market the .40 came out in was completely different from the one that the .38 did.

Oh absolutely. .40 S&W came out at a more favorable time for sure.

I think that most gap cartridges are a bit silly. I'd rather have 9mm with a big capacity or a 10mm for the punch rather than a compromise cartridge that doesn't do either as well.

>>28289597
I'd think that not having to fight the revolver nearly as hard is a big reason why the .40 caught on, not to mention the 94 ban which cemented its popularity ("If I only can carry 10, it might as well be 10 big ones). Iirc, the .38 Super was basically in competition with the .357, which even today kind of is a no brainer.

>>28289571

I guess my comparison to .38 Super was unfair, because you're right, it was a very different market that .40 S&W came into and it was very much in favor of .40 succeeding at the time. .38 Super's fate might be more comparable to .357 Sig or 10mm now that I think of it, but this really makes me wonder even more, is there a good example of a major (And popular) cartridge falling out of use, ignoring cases where huge advancements in technology made them entirely obsolete?

I think even the reasonable anti .40 crowd would say that it's not the worst thing ever, it's just not as good as X (Generally 9mm). Advancements in projectiles/powder that kind of made 9mm more of a "manstopper" in the minds of many also benefit .40 S&W, so it's ability in relation to 9mm hasn't fallen to the point where it's necessarily obsolete, but there do seem to be more and more folks dropping it.

>>28289705
>but this really makes me wonder even more, is there a good example of a major (And popular) cartridge falling out of use, ignoring cases where huge advancements in technology made them entirely obsolete?
.32 ACP is sort of an example, it's slightly obsolete and is also still owned and used in very small numbers, but it'll probably be dead like a dinosaur in a decade or two.

>>28289430

.38 Super is popular still because of Mexico and USPSA/IPSC Open (though seemingly losing ground to 9mm Major handloads).

.40 S&W is extremely popular in Limited.

so i do see your point. i think it's going to slide into the same competition only niche like .260 Rem, 6.5 CM, 6mmBR, etc. on the long-range riflery side of the house.

>>28289757
I remember reading an article two years ago that actually tried roping the .32 in with the .380 because of new bullet designs. I thought it was far-fetched even then, but the .380 is even starting to look a little less useful in comparison to the .9mm. It's probably destined to join the ranks of every other .32 caliber pistol round as a handloaders hobby.

>>28289796
Yeah, 9mm is pretty much it right now for compact and subcompact pistols - at least until someone comes out with a 5.7 subcompact, because I could see that having a chance of catching on. Either that or bring back 7.62 Tok.

>>28289757

That's not a bad example actually, .380 pushed it out in even the smallest of guns, though like >>28289796 said, 9mm seems to be pushing .380 out too. It's interesting though, because I can see .380 riding a similar "hype" wave as .40, in that I still see people pushing .380 for "small" guns even though pocket 9's in many, many cases are the same size.

>>28289705
I don't think comparing it to .357 or 10mm works either and you would probably have to move away from pistol cartridges to get anything that comes close.as the previous anon said .38 super had to compete with revolvers in a time whereas autos themselves wouldn't be widly accepted by the police for many more decades. Too many .40 cal guns have been made and sold, too many fans and it's not like the bullet advancements that have gone into 9mm are unique to 9mm.Even then .40SW has a few merits of its own outside of the two legged target department.Part of the key to 40s success is that all Any given pistol needs is a new barrel and recoil spring to become a .40 model.

I don't think it'll be as popular as it once was but it'll be a long time before it really drops off. Firearms, their owners and the cartridges themselves are amultifaceted and eclectic mix even if it is easy to focus on whatever stupid trends come along. 7.62x54, .38 super and .30-30 are still in production to this day after all.

>>28289813
I don't think 5.7 is going to get a good comeback. 7.62 Tok is fun, but it really lost a lot of interest when the import ammo started drying up. Until the price for either round starts coming down, they're going to stay pretty niche.

The .300 Blackout comes to mind. Someone, somewhere apparently convinced a lot of people that it was comparable to a 7.62x39, and now it's starting to come down in price a little. With handguns, however, it's kind of a hard market to crack at any angle.

>>28289843
>Part of the key to 40s success is that all Any given pistol needs is a new barrel and recoil spring to become a .40 model
Not really. Ask Glock how that worked out. Their reputation still hasn't fully recovered

If 10mm somehow became wildly more popular next year, I could see the .40 pistol having a renewed future - as a second barrel that ships with 10mm guns, so they can use cheap plinking ammo like a .357 and .44 can. It's simultaneously kill off .40 only pistols while keeping the ammo popular.

I wonder why every 10mm pistol on the market doesn't come with an extra .40 barrel standard?

>>28289796
>>28289830
This is barely on topic but damn I would love to get my hands on of those .32NAA Makarov barrels

>>28289887
More barrels = more expensive. Coonan's .357 1911 comes with a second spring for shooting .38spl, but since both cartridges headspace on the rim, it doesn't need a second barrel. I'm more curious why .357SIG didn't catch on, seeing as it can barrel swap with .40 afaik.

>>28289884
In spec ammo is a hell of thing anon. A firearms manufacturer would have to do some serious skimping on materials and design for one cartridge to be safe in a gun while another with identical operating pressure would somehow destroy it.

>>28289887
Doesn't 10mm use a .40 bullet at higher operating pressures? I'm no expert, but I don't see why a new barrel would be necessary as long as the rest of the action is designed to accommodate both cartridge lengths. Can't a g20 use both 10mm and .40 more or less straight out of the box?

>>28290130
*for instance. (I'm guessing on a legacy actions like a 1911 wouldn't be possible)

>>28290130

.40 headspaces on the case mouth. While you can fire .40 out of a 10mm, it doesn't work well if you want the gun to function reliably.

>>28290130
It has to do with headspacing. Most automatic cartridges headspace on the mouth, meaning that a .40 won't fit in a 10mm chamber.

>>28289923

>I'm more curious why .357SIG didn't catch on, seeing as it can barrel swap with .40 afaik.

No good entry into widespread Gov't contracts due to other options beating them to the punch? .40 came out not long before and probably had either gobbled up most of the contracts or was further along in the process, .357 Sig got scraps where they needed it's specific properties over any other cartridge.

That's a wild guess, but it sounds about right to me. Could also be that it was too "different" to get much mainstream consumer interest.

>>28290188
That's really a shame. The .357SIG really is an excellent cartridge--I've been wanting a Steyr in that caliber for a while now.

.45 Super is literally the most underrated cartridge... 10mm became the new hotness but .45 Super provides identical performance and pretty much any .45 pistol can use it with a spring change, even cast 1911s.

>>28289884
>Their reputation still hasn't fully recovered
Easily one of the top 3 in US handgun sales and you think "their reputation" hasn't recovered?
Get the fuck outta here

>>28290219
Not exactly man. It isn't so much underrated as it is unheard of. Have you ever seen a box of .45 super on the shelf? Don't get me wrong I like it a lot but it still loses out in areas like capacity, sectional density, the relative safety of guns that can use it.

It just has a weird portion of the market to work with and there is nobody to really push the product

>>28290532

More people should hear about it!!

It basically makes any .45 you already have identical to 10mm.

>>28289430
At least .38 Super has use, ISPC guys use it in their 1911s.

>.40 S&W
>S&W
I hope it burns.

>>28290705
You can load those bitches hot enough to be near .357.

>>28290689
I agree, but as I've said it's in a peculiar position. I've gone through the phase you seem to be in yourself as well. All excited about a cartridge that into getting enough love. The problem with .45 super is that most people wouldn't see much need for it to begin with and anyone that appreciates it's ability is either already shooting .45 auto +p, 10mm, .357 etc or they load their own .45 super/smc and that doesn't even require .45 super brass. It's kinda like a mid range sports ca....you know what. To hell with car analogies.

.38 super is in sorta the same boat as most people are happy with generic 9mm or they go with a revolver. They're both enthusiasts cartridges and at the end of the day that's not enough

>>28290706
And I'm sure you hate modern Ruger because of Bill too, despite the company's current model.Perhaps any German company as well due to the evil nazis.

If only we had more independent forward thinkers like yourself

.40 already is failing.

Only fudds and nigs buy it because of television and rap.

No one intelligent owns a. 40 and it will disappear within another generation

>>28290921
How's that rock you're living under treating you?

>>28290921
I'll go ahead and ask, what's the problem with S&W? They're one of the only companies I know of that have guns starting in the $350 up to the $1200-1500, and none of the Smiths I've handled at any price point have been bad.

>>28290945
>what's the problem with S&W?
a bunch of faggots are shitting themselves because S&W is tired of people trying to get warranty work on aftermarket shit.

>>28290974
Hasn't Smith always been kind of hard on that?

>>28291023
S&W isn't a great company but i can understand why a third party does a bunch of custom shit on an S&W and says
>send it to S&W for warranty we're not responsible for it running like a piece of shit
So at the end of the day it becomes a ship of Theseus situation.

>>28290928
this family
I think the terrible resale value of .40s is the biggest indicator of this.
Only idiots buy .40 without thinking, then realizing their mistake try to sell them and struggle to find a frugal or patient buyer.

>>28289430
no, 40 s&w is a more powerful round with better terminal ballistics than 9mm

>>28291041
generally when you get custom work the custom shop then warranties it

>>28291084
yes, so if you ever have to take one single shot at something, a 40 would be preferred over a 9.

>.38 super
>pushed out by .357mag
No, no, hell the fuck no.

.38 super lost popularity due to a combination of being semi-rimmed (rectified too late by the .38 Super Auto/.38 Super Comp, which has a standard rimless design and is backwards compatible) and having always been extremely expensive for what it was.

It's the oldtimer's competition caliber. The serious competitors in Open divisions are now shooting 9x19 Major PF loads (which require specialty barrels if not whole guns) or stuff like 9x21, and the mainstream guys are shooting .40 because most 165gr factory loads make Major and you're only losing a round or 2 at most in "production" and "limited" classes.

>b-but why isn't it (more) popular?
It's more expensive than 9mm, the capacity difference between it and .45acp is usually only 1 or 2 rounds, it has particularly annoying muzzle climb even if the felt recoil is mild, and is significantly more expensive than 9mm for those who just want to plink.

It's also been damned by shit-tier gun design (gen2 Glock unsupported chamber, being effectively retrofitted into 9mm frames that really couldn't handle it long-term).

Then, for the defensive side, it does literally nothing better than any other available caliber while having more muzzle climb, recoil, and muzzle flash than 9mm and an insignificant capacity advantage and more muzzle climb than .45acp. Penetration with 165gr JHP's is sub-optimal, penetration with 180gr JHP's is bordering too much (12" and 15" respectively), wound channels are almost identical to 9mm. Then, the short bullet with an extremely wide meplat can cause feeding issues in compact/subcompact pistols.

As far as PCC's (or subguns) go, it's a decent caliber but outshone by its nephew, .357Sig. It doesn't gain quite as much from a 16" barrel as 9mm does, and again due to the short/fat/flat bullet its trajectory is pretty terrible (but still better than .45acp).

>>28291098
>the custom shop then warranties it
Either the customers didn't realize this and sent them back to S&W anyway or X custom shop didn't want guns coming back to them because it might look bad. I dunno the situation, kin, I just know companies sperg out like S&W did when they get shit back that was voided.

>>28289571
no, we dont

>>28289501
explain how 9mm does everything 40s&w does

40 s&w 155gr gold dot out of glock 23: 1200 fps with 496 ft/lbs energy

9mm 124gr +P gold dot out of glock19: 1200 fps 397 ft/lbs energy

>496
>397
>the same

>>28291115
ironically when people have sent their stuff to S&W with Apex triggers in them S&W then removes the custom bits and sends back default parts plus the custom bits separate

>>28291114
>semi-rimmed
But this was never a problem in guns chambered for .38 super but it sure is expensive tho.

My .38 super 1911 holds 9+1. Someone needs to do some ballistics testing of .38 super vs .45 ACP because i know for a fact .38 super is shit tons faster.

>>28291129
Damn S&W is like an autistic kid.

>>28290188
too much blast and concussion for ballistics similarly achieved with 40. thats why it didnt catch on

>>28291150
If you really wanted to split hairs, it could be a legal issue.

>>28289844
>5.7
>from a subcompact/microcompact barrel of <=2 inches
Have you ever heard the saying "never do your enemy a minor injury"?

It sucks out of a 5" barrel in the Five-seven. it's decent but still meh from the P90's 10" barrel. Imagine throwing a 29-40gr bullet at <800fps, which is what'd happen if you shot a 5.7x28 from a 2" barrel.

there's not much of a niche for it, seeing as it's inferior to 9mm Luger in every way except for

>>28291105

>>28291170
>it could be a legal issue.
What? By leaving aftermarket triggers in?

>>28289844
gotta get that Red Army Standard 7.62 tok brah

5.7 is pretty much pointless since you can't get the special snowflake AP ammo easily

>>28289844
>someone somewhere convinced a lot of people .300blk=7.62x39
The biggest lie in history.

.300blk outperforms 7.62x39 in every regard. With 125gr bullets it outperforms 7.62x39 with 123gr bullets, while doing it from a barrel half as long (8" vs. 16"). With 110gr bullets it positively screams (>2400fps from 8" barrel with factory ammo, >2600fps from a 16" barrel with handloads)

>>28291204
I wonder how hard it would be to cast steel core bullets..

>>28291214
>.300blk outperforms 7.62x39 in every regard.
nigga anything outperforms 7.62x39.

ITT: a bunch of plebs arguing for the scraps left over from big boy calibers

>210 grain 44 magnum
>1500 FPS, 1000 FT/LBS

get on my level

>>28291186
lol dont ruin his parade with math

>>28290153
It fits just fine, since they have the same OD and rim size.

The problem is, 10mm's chamber is deeper since it's a longer cartridge, and headspaces off the case mouth. While you can safely fire .40 through a 10mm gun, you're relying on the extractor to hold the case where it needs to be. This is hard on the extractor and doesn't necessarily make for the most reliable pistol.

Likewise, you can fire both .45acp and .45super through a .460 Rowland, just expect less-than-stellar reliability.

>>28290729
>near
Standard IPSC load is pretty much identical to American Eagle 125gr .357mag, and they load them to the barest minimum to make Major Power Factor.

The caliber can go -much- hotter. Going solely off energy, it touches .357 Maximum or low-end .44Mag (though obviously both will have either a heavier bullet or higher MV).

>>28291214
eh, it's just one example but Hornady's are pretty close:
http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-SST/

http://www.hornady.com/store/300-Blackout-125-gr-HP-American-Gunner/

note that the 300 blk is out of a 16" barrel while the 7.62 is out of a 20" barrel, 20" on the 300 probably brings it to about the same. energy and fps all highly comparable

>>28291138
Except it was a huge problem with many early race guns. They'd rimlock because the rim was just there enough to do it but just short enough that no matter how careful you were loading the mag they'd jump other cartridges' rims under recoil.

Like I said, the .38 Super Auto (which is the only one that's been produced in a long damned time) fixed this, but it was too little too late. The bias was pretty deeply rooted.

>>28291292
there's also the fact that one of the stated goals of the cartridge's development is that it should be about the same as 7.62x39

File: 38super.gif (86KB, 780x390px) Image search: [Google]

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>>28291285
It's funky how some "underdog" cartridges get ignored.

Fun fact: i was just trying to check my barrel for how much of the case was supported and let my barrel bushing shoot out somewhere where i didn't see it. Fuck me.

>>28291329
>early race guns
There's your problem. Make a gun tighter than a 5th graders asshole and you're going to get problems.

>>28291197

Even Glock very very vaguely tells you not use aftermarket parts while giving you the world's most unsubtle wink

>why did you create your weapons to be modified so easily
>I dunno judge, we'd told them in the disclaimer not too

>>28290305
He meant their rep hasnt recovered in his small mind.

>>28291351
>hurr only happened in super-tight guns
A problem is still a problem.

Especially when literally no other caliber in race guns of the era had that problem (specifically 9x21 and 9x23) since they had either a true rimless or even a rebated rim design.

>>28291150
No. They are just interested in fixing other peoples problems. They fix the gun as they designed it.

>>28291351
>flying barrel bushing
I've got a Mauser safety spring, about 234 scope ring screws, 3 1911 ejectors, 2 AR ejector detents, and a bunch of other random tiny parts hiding in various corners or boxes of my shop.

>>28291421
Sounds kinda gay to me fortunately mine doesn't suffer those problems.

>>28291451
#gunownerproblems.

>>28291451
Oh, also.

Always wear eyepro when you remove the firing pin block from a 1911. I've nearly lost an eye from it sliding too far and launching the spring and pin straight into my face.

>>28291197
You asshole think that because you bought a 400 gun, fucked around with some aftermarket bullshit that S&W owes you the resources of an engineering department to fix shit that you fucked up. Jesus. You want custom shit, spend the money on some real shit and quit being a Jew.

>>28291473
this. i always wear eye pro when disassembling gun spring shit because ive had it fly in my face one too many times

>>28291451
I nearly blasted a friend with a 92fs guide rod once and I had a mag tube extensive take off like it had joerg sprave written on it. Good times

>>28291214
I'm a 7.62x39mm faggot.... But you are correct. It's a better cartridge.

>>28291493
But i'm not disagreeing with S&W

>>28291514
Oh. Your cool then bro. Sorry.

>>28291497
Tempted to post the pic I have of a Mauser firing pin lodged in a cinderblock backwards.
>bolt kind of a pain to take apart
>under hellacious spring pressure (Yugos certainly never had to worry about light primer strikes....)
>using edge of my vise to take pressure off spring so I can unscrew bolt body
>aaaaallmost all the way unscrewed
>thing slips off edge of vise
>WHAM
>that last 1/16" of thread tears through, firing pin spring and pin go flying at mach fuck across the room
>through-and-through's an empty cardboard box and lodges in my cinderblock wall
>proceed to cut 3 coils off spring before reassembling
>still detonates CCI superhard magnum LR primers just fine

>>28290928
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Why?

Fudds and redguards reproduce, usually at an alarming rate.

They'll show their kids their wonder-40's and then have more .40 fans.

It's a cartridge that is here to stay.

Now the .357 SIG fags, on the other hand...

>>28291564
>fudds
>reproducing at anything more than a token rate
Sorry, but the Baby Boomer age is over. On top of that, whites (99.9999999% of fudds) are simply not reproducing fast enough to even replace what we currently have regardless of their demographic.

Also, redguards with guns typically don't have children that survive to adulthood, even if they shit out a metric fuckload of them.

>>28289430
Man I hope so. Fucking stupid "compromise caliber". Seriously, fuck this cartridge becoming mainstream, offering too few advantages to 9 to be of any value. Maybe when it was new and hollowpoints weren't at the point they are now, but today it's worthless. Every gun made in .40 is one that SHOULD have been in 9 or .45 and every 40 round is made of brass, bullet, powder, and primer that should have become 9 or 45 instead.

>>28291551
holy shit, plz post.
reminds me of:
https://youtu.be/-79THshVO4k?t=8s

>>28291644
at 8 seconds in i mean

>>28289430
I don't know anyone that shoots a .40 for competition or for fun really
I don't think itd as snappy as people gripe about, but when it comes to compettion shooting I usually see 9mm, .45 ACP, or some niche cartridge like .32 s@w long or .38 super because it fits the style of shooting and as is soft
.40 is a duty round

>>28291610
Yeah fuck that stupid cartridge has that you don't have to use, which has zero effect on your life and is fact incapable of sexually assaulting you. Variety is fucking stupid and there should only be .22lr, 9mm and .308

>>28291679
Power factor for competition, availability and the fact that some folks enjoy something a little more lively when shooting. As far as the snap goes it's all shooter ability and preference. As long as it snaps back on target when the slide resets who gives and shit. Some people like .45 over 9mm because of its recoil characteristics being more push than pop etc

Nothing wrong with the second generation .38 Supers- from the point where Colt started headspacing the case on the case mouth and not the semi-rim.

.38 Super shooting major was the shiz-naya back in the end of the 80's. I had friends that had some tricked out Paras that held 21 or 22 rounds, and were comped and dot-sighted. Those things were pretty amazing.

Anytime you get into a niche round the price just goes up. Look at .450 Marlin. If you own anything other than 9mm you'll be paying more.

>>28291875
>held 21 or 22 rounds
Where do you get extendo-clips for .38 super?

>>28291908
He said Paras
So doublestack 1911

>>28291952
Fuckkkk

>>28291964
Iirc Sphinx offered a 2000 or 3000 model called a tactical hicap with 22 rounds in 9mm 18-20 in 10mm.

File: ruger101opngshot.jpg (159KB, 565x508px) Image search: [Google]

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Is .327 Federal Magnum like a less successful version of .40 S&W?

>>28292303
No .327 is more like a waste of potential

>>28291786
It isn't thought to be beneficial over 9mm in almost any case. Use it if you want but all it's really doing is taking up space where 9mms and 45s could be.

>>28292384
b-but you can shoot .32 ACP out of a .327

>>28291908
Back then, I think it was Glades Gunworks who made baseplates for .38 super, 9mm or 40 S&W Para-Ord mags that got the capacity there.

>>28292473
.32 shorts, .32 H&R or .327

For .32acp you would need moon clips, for moon clips you would need an old model sp101 as newer ejector star that won't allow for clips. I think the new start predates .327.

But there is a j-frame in .327 iirc.
The cartridge itself really benefits from a 4" or longer barrel. Bowen does Bearcat conversions that are neat as fuck and a little 1894 or 77/357 style carbine would be fantastic

>>28289923
It makes a loud pop and a ball of gas lie shock wave.

If you think .40 makes new shooters flinch, ten .357 sig will turn off new shooters.

>>28291221
You are not going to cast the bullets, it needs to be turned on a lathe.

We are assuming that penetration requires a nasty metal that is very hard and brittle.

I will describe it for you: roundstock of an appropriate nature will be held in a lathe and turned to diameter, polished, and then parted.

The use of a unique cutting tool will be necessary as well as a coolant pump to keep down dust.

Next is pressing the bullet into a jacket and then it becomes a standard handloading procedure.

>>28290219
Case length
a
s
e

l
e
n
g
h

>>28291564

The problem is most reguards consider .38 to be godly, even though it is weaker than 9mm. That is considering gang related otherwise most are considered antigun.

>>28293914
>.38
What .38, there's so many .38s out there.

>>28292731
.32acp is semi-rimmed and will seat in a revolver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=188YNcVJLL8

>>28289430
I think it's going to be like the 16 gauge, it will still be around here and there, but if you want good ammo quantities you'll have to reload. The 16 is virtually like the in-between round from 12 gauge and 20 gauge, and just like the .40sw is the inbetween round from 9mm and .45acp it will probably suffer the same fate.

>>28293825
Okay I read were you say "Standard Hand-loading Procedure" and I ask "Where do you find the reloading data for that?" Assuming the bullet weights of steel and lead differ so much, wouldn't using the loading data for lets say a copper jacketed lead core be higher pressure with a steel core bullet?

>>28289430
.40 S&W is great for carbines

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9KB, 201x200px

>>28289501
>tactically, superior.

>>28294039
Most likely .38acp. Otherwise anything more than 9mm in cost is probably never mentioned.

>>28290928
I bought my USP.40 in '99 because it is the cartridge the USP was designed for and I'm not a poor.
#FeelTheBern

>>28294068
Man I love my 16 ga.

My great grandfather won lots of tournaments and would shoot hundreds of ducks on a Sunday just for fun (they didn't have halo or call of duty in the 1930's to stave off boredom)

>>28294244
This, 9mm and .45 carbines are not viable and are just range toys, a .40 pistol like a glock 23 and having a gen 2 Kel tec carbine is like the old days of cowboys with revolvers and lever actions in the same caliber, but the rifle barrel allows for more range.

I'd really like to legit see SMG's in .40 S&W