>Nazi salute >Use of this salute is a criminal offense

>see thread in catalog
>I bet OP is American
101% chance

>>78250040
Yes it's very bizarre that a nation such as Russia, which gave 20 million lives to defend itself from the Nazis, would not very much like Nazi salutes.

>>78250040
I don't personally believe in censorship but I understand why they'd ban this. It's a salute that is associated with a group that killed millions of people from those countries, excluding Sweden/Switzerland.

>>78250040
>Responsible for the destruction and occupation of Germany and most of the other countries you listed
You can be a white nationalist and against immigration without being a self destructive Nazi

>>78250118
Russia had like the greatest number of neonazis at some point, didn't it?

You realize that in the case of Germany limits on free speech in cases concerning anti-democratic speech were added when the United States wrote the German constitution?

>>78250104
>>78250118
>>78250205
My point is that a gesture can land you in jail

>>78250205
show me the millions for Slovakia,Canada,Czech Republic,France and Netherlands

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>>78250040

>>78250040
It's not illegal in Sweden. It's illegal to do it towards someone in a particular situation. You can't walk into a temple and do it for example, but you are free to do it as long as its not aimed towards anyone.

It's complicated.

>>78250345
I can't tell if you're supporting the law or opposing it.

And your pic is
>I don't like a harmless gesture, ban it

>>78250040
Who do you think created these laws?
Americans did

>>78250415
>it's not illegal
>but here is a situation where it is illegal

>>78250258
so...

don't go to Germany and respect their laws? or are you saying Germany should change their own law to match your opinion?

im not understanding the argument.

>>78250305
millions collectively

>>78250258
a gesture that represents a murderous ideology

>>78250485
hes saying its a dumb law you fucking leaf

>>78250485
I'm saying that banning a harmless gesture is retarded

>>78250477
how is that not a difficult thing to understand?

fucking in your own room is not illegal.

fucking outside on the park bench is illegal.

somethings are illegal based solely on their location and timing.

Everything Americans dislike about modern day Germany is something the American post war reeducation instilled into the collective mind of this nation.

We could be different but we have been raised this way.

helo welcom to socialim :DDD

>>78250514
Yes, Americans have done a lot of dumb shit in other countries, we know. What's your point?

The worst part is that all those cuck laws are so engraved into Germany's collective consciousness that they will never recover. The Allies went overboard with the pussyfication.

why the fuck is it even illegal in sweden, as if we had anything to do with ww2

>>78250532
>on the park bench
No, that's not illegal either.
You could do it anywhere you want technically. As long as it's not aimed towards anyone.
If you do it in a temple, you will be taken to court because you did it aimed towards jews for example.

>>78250592
Muh steel.

>>78250610
no obscenity laws in Sweden?

>>78250499
30% of Belarus died in WW2, its not banned there, your reasons are trash, i doubt you could even put one million people from all countries above that got killed by nazis that were not jews

>>78250635
jews still count as citizens of their respective countries you retarded slav

>>78250656
those jews were voluntarily given to Germans, Slovakia even payed for every jew shipped out

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Salvete

>>78250510
Brazil, you can answer when we talk about SOPA.

>>78250485
>don't go to Germany and respect their laws?
What a terrible argument. If I object to 12 year old Saudi girls being forced into marriage, will you say the same thing?

>>78250737
very good post from a very good poster

>>78250630
That wouldnt cover it.

>>78250758
yes, what do you expect me to do? create an army, navy and air force and conquer the country so i can change their laws?

it's their fucking business. I don't have to like it, but i respect their fucked up laws. I just won't go there and i wouldn't want anything to do with them.

Yeah free speech is an imperfect concept. It allows fascist to rise to power and we cannot allow that.

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>>78250737
>>78250766
Why are canadians such shit posters

>>78250040
Maybe next thing is to start burning books. Or calling judaism a hate crime. But that's all fine since it's anti-nazi, right?

It's so ironic.

>>78250821
You've got a bit of a vicious circle for yourself here.

You seem to be saying you shouldn't complain about something unless you have the capacity to change it, but you're complaining about me doing just that when you can do nothing to stop me. Checkmate, Canuck.

Literally doing a nazi salute right now.

>>78250205

It's not because of the killings, mate. It's because we don't want these retards to destroy Europe a second time.

What are you supposed to do with people like Trumpfags? They don't listen to reason. They are basically the private army of the demagogue of the day. We cannot have that shit within our borders.

>>78250908
nice strawman, i never said you can't complain. i said what is the point of complaining.

>>78250040
There is no specific law that designates the Roman greeting as an offence, but it can be used in a discriminatory way in which case (under very specific circumstances) it may be punishable.

>>78250956
Getting enough people unhappy about any given situation is the only effective way to change something. Well, the only legal way anyway.

>>78250040
No hate speech in Canada and I agree with the law. You can speak, you have freedom of speech unless it's meant to incite hatre

>>78250913
o/

>>78250956
>nice strawman
>i never said you can't complain.
Pretty ironic, buddy, seeing as I never said that you said I can't complain, only that I shouldn't.

doornail bloompf is a fat fucking fascist orange

>>78250040
Would you be this triggered if former commie countries banned Soviet apologists? Almost like this isn't about your free speech, I wonder what it's really about...

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>>78250040
>American drinks beer in public
>gets arrested by cops because the US is a puritan shariah state
>they are literally forced to hide their beer bottles in brown bags
I don't know about you but being able to drink a beer or wine in public is more relevant to my life than doing the nazi salute

>>78251345
>being allowed to drink in public is more important than political expression
Truly a brave, new world we're living in.

>>78251066
Freedom of speech is a much more important right than someone's feefees. Besides, hate speech laws can be so easily applied to anything, so they're inherently very dangerous.

And even blatant hate speech creates discussion, and discussion is how things ever move forward.

>>78251549
A republican state has to have provisions to protect its free and democratic order. If you are abusing the freedoms provided by this order with the end goal to abolish them alltogether then you are forfeiting those freedoms and can't rely on the republic to give you special protection.

We have no specific law forbidding it. But it can be prosecuted as a regular insult, if you mean it as such.

>>78251345
>degenerate lowlifes drinking everywhere
cool if you're 16, i prefer not paying a fine for raising my hand though

>>78251667
If democracy is as objectively meritorious as people say, why does it need such unique protections?

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fascist US will be unstoppable, cant wait until i can kill muslims and negroes with my own hands

>>78251843
Please explain to me, what exactly is so 'unique' about the principle of self-preservation?

This seems to be the most basic principle of any form of organization ever, from biological life forms to complex political and social entity.

>>78250040
Why is it illegal in Russia after they so comprehensively BTFO the Nazis?

>>78250258
It's really no different from Confederate flags/statues being removed in the USA.

Maybe if you had a dictatorship kill millions of people and lead to your country's destruction you'd feel the same way.

>>78251944
Well, first of all, it's unique insofar as its application to freedom of speech laws is a unique departure from the general principle.

Second of all, it is a dramatic overreaction to an individual's exercise of freedom of expression to suggest that the whole political system will come crumbling.

Thirdly, this is the first time I've ever seen democracy and constitutional republicanism defined in terms of such domination. It's supposed to be about individualism, flourishing and limited government, not hegemony.

>>78251667
I disagree completely. If people want democracy, then such measures are unnecessary. If the people don't want democracy, then the most democratic thing to do is abolish it.

>>78252083
europeans are retarded, they like like not having free speech, if you asked Slovaks if those laws should be removed you would get like 90% negative response

>>78250949
>>78250825
Because the current destruction of said countries through mass immigration is so much better?

>>78251944
Thr government is not a living, breathing thing, so self-preservation should not apply to it. It seems to me that you're defending institutional inbreeding and bureaucracy rather than something tangible.

>>78252193
And criticising mass immigratio can easily be constructed to be hate speech and thus censored under these kinds of laws. People are so fucking stupid that they simply don't understand how dangerous restricting free speech actually is, no matter how good the intentions.

>>78252275
Exactly, people were so concerned with nazis that they dodn't anticipate other unfavorable outcomes in the future.

>>78252140
Small tight nit european countries are based desu. Would live in one if I could.

>>78250040
>I can't believe this shit is real life
That's because it's not illegal in canada. Leave it to a dumb fucking yank to believe everything he reads on wikipedia.

>>78252113
This principle of militant democracy is an essential pillar of Germany's post-war political order.

These provisions are the result and conclusions of the direct past experiences with the failure of the Weimar Republic, the rise of dictatorship and the complete collapse of any freely democratic and republican order.

Where is your limited government if this kind of banal passivity leads to the rise of authoritariansm.

Only a pampered invidvidual spoiled by peacetime and freedom would think that the current state of things is somehow unshakable but it wasn't not that long ago when things where very different.

Could someone explain to me how exactly did all of this start? Was any of this planned or it just began out of the blue?

>>78251549
Except most hate speech isn't in an open public forum. It serves those in a position of power, like priests or imams to corrupt the youth they are tasked to guide.
In Canada, this has been the only known application of the law and I vehemently disagree that all speech should be free speech.

>>78252629
>It serves those in a position of power
It serves people in power, alright, like the government and majoritarian whims.

>>78252723
Except that's an open discussion where people can critique what is said. That could be useful if there was a meaningful discussion.

In Canada, if I incite you using hate speech to harm others, that's illegal. That's the purpose of the law. I agree with it.

>>78250040
Meanwhile some swiss politician had a german "Reichsflagge" in his basement. People just don't gave a shit when the media discovered it.

>>78252800
>if I incite you using hate speech to harm others, that's illegal
That's not what hate speech laws are, you dipshit.

Incitement to violence isn't the same as saying a particular race has a lower average IQ or not referring to a transgender by their preferred pronouns.

>Ban assault gestures
I remember when I was 14 and wished I lived in Europe lmao

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Germany tried to copy Italy again

SALVTTO AL DVCE!!!

>>78252921
Perhaps too general for you, but it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

>>78253038
Oh, when I said they're not the same, I meant by objective standards of reason, not Canada's feelings-based sham legal system.

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>>78252983
>mfw every basic bitch travels to europe and thinks it is a utopia
>denounces everything american
>thinks i'm not cultured enough to understand it
i'll take my guns and ability to raise my arm thank you very much

>>78253168
I think you're incorrect. I think its a sham groups can advocate the destruction of others. It's not fucking feelings when the bullets fly based English common law Ireland.

>>78253335
Have any civil servants, policemen, soldiers, etc. ever been fired or prosecuted for displaying a confederate flag?

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>>78253443
You can fly it wherever you want no matter who you are, but military has stricter rules for obvious reasons.
Non-elected civil servants may face pressure to resign (because employment-at-will exists here) but no one has ever been prosecuted for the flag.

>>78250252
Rekt

>>78252615
The American left has an immense disliking of the South and Midwest because they're less than welcoming to SJW ideologies. I'll put it to you simply.

>>78253432
If the speech is so infantile that it calls for the destruction of others, then it should be easily solved with discussion. If it becomes a problem then there are deeper underlying issues and the incitement to violence is merely a symptom.

>>78254696
So words have no meaning and you can't convince people to do anything?

>>78254721
Of course you can convince people to do things, just as you can convince them not to. Which is how the issue should be resolved.

>>78255095
Should it be legal to knowingly spread a disease, even if you know there is a cure for it? Say, smallpox.

Shouldn't be against the law, just needs to be treated.

>>78255282
I fail to see how that's equivalent.

>>78255380
I think that's a bit of intellectual dishonesty on your part, but I can entertain it.

The problem is that just because there is a way to undo the damage done by someone, does not mean that the act of doing that damage should be tolerated. The idea behind these laws is that there are things that have been accepted as proven to be unambiguously damaging to a healthy society, and they are treated as such. To attempt to get them to take root is a conscious attack on the fabric of society. That they can be argued against is irrelevant: the act of spreading then is wrong.

Take the case of the woman who convinced that guy to commit suicide, or that Canadian dude who convinced a bunch of American teens to take their lives. Could you conceivably have convinced those tend not to kill themselves? Maybe, but the fact that it is hypothetically possible is meaningless and is absolutely not a defense.

>>78250104

>Defending this shit
>Flag of a country in the EU

101% chance.

It is very different. You are allowed to fly confederate flags and have confederate statues in the USA. People will just think you're a faggot and racist.
You don't go to jail for it. It's called freedom of speech.

>>78255858
>People will just think you're a faggot and racist
In cities, yeah

>>78255858
The united states draws lines on protected speech, too. The borders are just different that's all. It just comes down to a question of where you think the sweet spot lies.

>>78255704
If you are actively spreading a disease, then you're the one causing bodily harm to others. That is different.

>The problem is [...] spreading then is wrong.
Anything can be constructed to be an attack on the fabric of society. If the society is to last, it'll have to get a better tailor.

>Take the case of the woman who convinced that guy to commit suicide, or that Canadian dude who convinced a bunch of American teens to take their lives.
Is suicide even illegal? Regardless, I'm not seeing an issue. The people who do the deed are always the ones who are responsible.
>Could you conceivably have convinced those tend not to kill themselves? Maybe, but the fact that it is hypothetically possible is meaningless and is absolutely not a defense.
Says you. Innocent until proven guilty without a shadow of a doubt. You aren't responsible for someone else killing themselves.

>>78255858
Oh I meant to reply to an NZ who said that America does the same thing.

>>78252083

>>78255948
both these people were found guilty this is not a "says me" situation.

>>78255948
>If the society is to last it will need a better tailor
If you're going to overextend the metaphor is worth pointing out that these measures ARE how it is getting a better tailor, so as to be able to last longer.

>>78256032
>both these people were found guilty this is not a "says me" situation.
Similarly, you would be found guilty of hate speech if you were to do a nazi salute in Germany. Or if you were to post a "racist tweet" in UK. You're just defending shitty laws.

>>78256075
I don't think censoring dissidents has never worked out well in the long run.

>>78250118
>Russia, which gave 20 million lives to defend itself from the Nazis

Most Russians hate Jews and love Hitler.

>>78250477
Being drunk is not illegal
Being drunk while driving is illegal

Come on man

>>78250838

OBSESSED

>>78250040
you need to go back
>>>/pol/

>>78250104
very good counter point, spaghetti man

I highly doubt they enforce the law.

>>78257129
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40842853

>>78250118
>20 million lives
thats what commie propaganda wants you to believe. stalin killed millions in gulags

>>78253013
What you are gonna do about it faglord? betray them?

>>78257174
what the fuck is wrong with europe? literally 1984 tier

>>78256373
I'm saying there is no country who entertains your theoretical definition of zero accountability for your words, and that convincing a mentally vulnerable person to commit suicide is a crime.

>>78250104
mamma mia!

>>78256373
>I don't think censoring dissidents has never worked out well in the long run.
You might as well say drinking water doesn't work out well for the fabric of society because everything is temporary and the society that doesn't draw those lines literally doesn't exist

>>78257259
>>I'm saying there is no country who entertains your theoretical definition of zero accountability for your words
Unfortunately.
>and that convincing a mentally vulnerable person to commit suicide is a crime.
Not in here, as it should be.

Kill yourself, you moose fucker.

Let's say you now go and kill yourself. Do you think I should be punished?

>>78250040
It's not illegal here? I do it all the time

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>went to a restaurant today
>order white pizza
>somebody makes a remark about it
>decide to make a hitler joke
>everybody laughs
>realize that if I lived in germany I would be in prison right now

>>78257368
I think that would be a hard sell to convince anyone that a single "kill yourself" on an anonymous imageboard was the main contributing factor in their suicide. If I were depressed and you continuously argued that I should kill myself, and out was clear that you had managed to convince me, absolutely without question.

At the very start of this, in response to someone else, you accept the premise that words have the power to convince people of things. If they convince people to cause harm to others, that is an issue. If a religious figure uses his words to convince his followers to do harm to others, he is having a concrete, measurable, negative effect on society. Allowing such a person to continue on acting in that manner serves no purpose. Nothing is gained from it.

>>78257475
>It's illegal to make Hitler jokes in Germany
Er ist wieder da was literally to number one movie in Germany in 2015

>>78257774
it is if it involved white supremacy and the nazi salute

>>78257717
>>I think that would be a hard sell to convince anyone that a single "kill yourself" on an anonymous imageboard was the main contributing factor in their suicide.
If it's criminal, then it's criminal. The law isn't a scalpel, you can't decide when to apply it.
>If I were depressed and you continuously argued that I should kill myself, and out was clear that you had managed to convince me, absolutely without question.
How do you decide if "it's clear" that I was the final stroke that made you kill yourself? And what if I did it out of compassion, since I felt that your existence was so full of suffering that death would be a release? Seems pretty damn exploitable and arbitrary, which is bad. Your opinions suck.

>At the very start of this, in response to someone else, you accept the premise that words have the power to convince people of things.
I also said that ultimately the person doing the deed is responsible, not anyone else.
>If they convince people to cause harm to others, that is an issue.
Why?
>If a religious figure uses his words to convince his followers to do harm to others, he is having a concrete, measurable, negative effect on society.
And?
>Allowing such a person to continue on acting in that manner serves no purpose. Nothing is gained from it.
That is the price of freedom, there will always be people who would abuse their rights. That is not enough reason to limit said right. Also you're wrong on that there's nothing to be gained from it, since it would create discussion, which would influence the society to hopefully a better direction.

>>78257992
You have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was the deciding factor. Your odd fondness for metaphors isn't going to obfuscate this fact. Just saying kill yourself is going to be a difficult thing to prove as the ring point for someone's suicide. Having chat loss delineating the process by which you convince someone to kill themselves is much more convincing.

There is no "choosing when to apply" the law. That is how it will go down. Also, the law is in fact a scalpel, it's why judges can decide on the sentencing and why jury annulment exists.

>>78257992
Why do you think any law exists, by the way

Like, in your understanding, what is the purpose of law as a system and what should be the motivation between the creation of a law

>>78258294
>You have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was the deciding factor.
Which is impossible. Great we got that sorted.
>Having chat loss delineating the process by which you convince someone to kill themselves is much more convincing.
So how many times do you need to tell someone to kill themselves until you become a criminal, then?

>and why jury annulment exists.
Not here though. We don't even have a jury.

>>78258343
Laws exist solely to protect the rights of the people. Let's take littering as an example. Littering is and should stay illegal, because people should have a right to walk in public without having to see trash everywhere.

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>>78250514
>harmless

>>78258623
That is an extremely weird example. Every protection of a right impedes on another by necessity. Do you not take issue with losing the right to throw your shit wherever you please?

>>78250258
Pfff, just don't retarded and perform it right in front of a policeman. Friends aren't going to report you if you do it jokingly, and half the population doesn't known about it being a legal requirement.

>>78258685
That's where we come into comparison of interests, which admittedly eventually comes down to personal opinion.

One man's right to throw their shit wherever they please, another's right to not see shit thrown everwhere.

One man's right to own slaves, another man's right to not be enslaved.

Women's right to vote, men's right to not have the society fucked up by retarded women.

Which do you think is more important? I consider the right to free speech much more important than whatever negative result from free speech.

>>78252083
Confederate flags are being removed from public places, local, state or federal land.
Not private areas.

I can hang the confederate, nazi and all the flags I want in my backyard or car.

I can walk around with a big nazi or confederate shirt. I can get a nazi tattoo, and the authorities can't do shit.

>>78250547
There were lots of things that were totally necessary during a military occupation.

censorship and banning of certain ideologies and behaviors is expected. But the US control of Germany has been over for about 60 years. Get your shit together.

>>78251345
Almost no one gets arrested for drinking in public. You may get a warning or kicked from wherever you are. But it's not like cops are actively searching for public drinkers.

I would rather the state controlled alcoholic drinks, which at the end of the depressants (DRUGS), then to stamp on a certain behavior or form of speech.

The constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to get fucked up in public. But it does allow you to speak your mind openly. Which one is better?

The city or municipality owns the public parks and public areas. They get to choose whether they allow drunks or not. And most don't want to.

>>78250118
Yet they remember Stalin fondly, even though he got more Russians and humans killed than Hitler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Va-y2ATKI&ab_channel=WCCO-CBSMinnesota

>>78259072
Well that is according to (((polls))) but if it were proven fact that this was truth then they truly are subhuman. I refuse to believe it though, that they would actually revere a Georgian manlet who treated Russians like absolute shit and only cared about enriching himself

>>78255923
The only boundaries on speech are defamation and inciting violence or riots. But even then you have to be pretty explicit about what you are saying.

Not like in europe where a mere insult can land you in jail.

>>78250949
Hehehe yes, we must not allow people to fight for true freedom ever again :)

>>78259150
Well, they aren't necessarily taught that Stalin was a twat in their schools, but that "he lead the great war against the horrors of nazism and Hitler, who was Satan himself!!11". It's pretty interesting how "wrong" (at least from a western standpoint) Russian history books are.
"Russia has never been the aggressor"
"What about their attack on Finland and Poland and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?"
"Necessary things and the pact was misunderstood. RUSSIA DINDU NOTHIN!"

>>78258685
You can throw how much shit you want in your house.

But you can't go to a public area (which is property of the state or city) and throw shit. It's not your property to do so. The City is within it's right to set boundaries to certain behaviors as long as they do not infringe on your constitutional or human rights. Throwing shit is not one of those.

In the US, you can't tell a person to not do the nazi salute. It's speech, or political expression, and he may do so as long as it's not violent.

>>78250949
>They are basically the private army of the demagogue of the day.
>Nazies banned
>Communists free to preach their poison

This is a load of hypocritical bullshit

>>78259005
>drinking = getting drunk

Puritan mentality at its finest

>>78250040
Why are american so stupid ?

>>78250040
In our country the gesture itself is not illegal, only when combined with the words ''heil hitler''

>>78252113
Democracy is the same as any form of gouvernment you retard, if you let extremists go unchecked, they will try to fuck you over. Any system will hate those who are anti system and want it down, that's why communists and fascists were always the ennemy in liberal democracies

>>78250040
Calm your shit, I've been hailing throughout my childhood and nobody cared.

>>78250233
Yes. 50% of all Nazis arround the world were russian. Probably arround the 00's

>>78250258
what, you mean like spitting on the US flag?

>>78250118

They have more lives to communism. Should that be banned too?

>>78261692
Do you have a source for that?

>>78250691
Romans actually never used the salute. That's an invention of later years

>>78261718
Communist parties are banned in some EE countries.
As for Russia, the communist party (KPRF) is an United Russia puppet so there's no reason for the government to ban it.

>>78250040
>ban western european nationalism
>hurr why are europeans so stupid?
Americans should be shot on sight

>>78250040
lol bro, this shit is absolutely real in russia. For example, police can get you in jail for repost with nazi photos in social network(VK). God bless the Putin

>>78250233
>>78261692
I've heard that on Ross Kemp too but I checked to numbers on Wikipedia that this is pretty much impossible. I guess it's just aother case anti-Russian propaganda.

>>78256824
Go fuck yourself you lying sack of shit

>>78258665
>harmed
>feelings
Are you kidding?

>>78250040
>it's not an offense in israel
really makes you think

>>78250040
You are the one who did denazification

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(((They))) use Nazism as a psyop. When have you realized (((they))) are using Nazism against your own interests? Can't outjew the jew

>>78250345
The thing that annoys me the most about the picture is

>They shouldn't go to jail because they did not know the law

Is that how people think about laws? It is a citizen's responsibility to know and obey the law. Heck, it should be against the law to not know the law.