Pay your debnts, Germany. You're just as bad as Greece.

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unacceptable

everyone will flip their shit if they start rearming themselfs

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>>72526868
So when are you taking your land back?

>>72526821
What does NATO actually do? What do they protect us from? Russia? I would fucking love the Soviet Union to live again.

Because who protects us from america now they have chosen an insane person as president? I'm not a commie but the scale has to be balanced.

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pay denbts please

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ok sir

>>72526821
>Pay your debnts, Germany.
what the fuck are "debnts"?

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>>72526867

>Greece not only pays its dues, but manages to pay 0.46% more to make up for the fact that countries like Italy, Canada, and Germany are freeloading
Can't make this shit up

>>72526938
>What does NATO actually do? What do they protect us from? Russia? I would fucking love the Soviet Union to live again.

I bet you wouldn't say that same exact sentence if you lived in Ukraine, retard.

Ukraine is what happens when you exist outside of NATO.

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lol europoors can't defend themselves

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>>72526971

>newfags

>>72526821
fuck of

we went to two wars with you bcs your shitty diplomacy

refugges crisis is your fault too

>>72527041
???

>>72526821

I don't know USA, it's almost like you guys can actually print money without suffering from inflation because of the petro dollar you guys are using the NATO troops to maintain.

Jeez maybe we should lower my grandma pension of 110 dollars a month to buy second hand USA made arms.

We should be good allies in the end.

... USA, you guys are massive cunts.

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>>72527054
>0.97%
are you even trying

>>72527010
The truth is that many people in Crimea wanted to be part of Russia. Maybe if I lived in Ukraine, I would wanted to be russian too.

The things you see in the media, are almost all manipulated by the western goverments. And I'm not saying that I'm right and you're worng, I'm just saying that you can't trust anything in the news.

>>72526979
Greece has to maintain forces to defend its islands from the Turks. No joke.

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>>72527106
>Jeez maybe we should lower my grandma pension of 110 dollars a month to buy second hand USA made arms.

Wow, that's exactly what we're doing to our own citizens, because you're refusing to pay your dues.

If we were able to de-escalate our spending from 3.6% to 2.0%, we would be able to spend $268,320,000 more on our social services.

I can't believe you're so dumb to make that argument and not consider the corollary. European (and Canadian) freeloaders actively harm the average American citizen.

You can kindly fuck off if you think we owe you money. But you'll never do that, will you. All that bullshit about Europe owing you is for internal consumption

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>the Allies want Germany to arm itself again

What a time to be alive.

>>72527144
PSYKOOSI

When will America take on it's fair share of refugees? You helped cause them after all.

>>72527220
No one is forcing you to spend 3.6% of your GDP on your military. Hell, you could do with just your nuclear triad and nothing else.

>>72527220
maybe you shouldnt invade goatfuckers and stick to your fucking continent you arrogant peace of shit so you dont have to spend your dollars on weapons that much?

retarded blob

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>>72527234
>You can kindly fuck off if you think we owe you money.

http://nutiminn.is/donald-trump-bedinn-um-ad-setja-island-i-annad-saeti-sjadu-myndbandid/

Your entire cuck propaganda circuit begged Donald Trump to stay in NATO. Seriously, you spent actual, hard money, on convincing us to stay.

If you want us to stay, actually pay the dues you whiny babies. Greece, Poland, Estonia, and the UK do. Why the fuck can't you?

Are you seriously saying you can't outdo Poland and Greece?

>>72527297
Based hungary

>>72527220

I dunno m8, in the last 20 years or so, you legitimately didn't have to enter a single war. But you did, multiple times and wasted in every sense of the word trillions.

That somehow we should fork out, so you can pat yourselves on the back for being leader of allied forces for world peace.

>>72527306
I'm saying that US global presence is a pyramid scheme to feed your mutated mil-ind complex and to strengthen US propaganda. Neither of those will stop mattering in the short run. We don't owe you jack shit, we want you out

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>>72527220
>>72527285
Also here's some food for thought.

Notice the percentages at the end of the cold war for both European countries and the US. There is no direct correlation between what Europe spends and what the US spends. It is more in line with what Russia spends

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>>72527306
>Your entire cuck propaganda circuit begged Donald Trump to stay in NATO.

Go on and leave it. Force us to creat an EU army. Poland and others already want it.
That will sure help your influence.

>>72527285
>No one is forcing you to spend 3.6% of your GDP on your military.

The fact that 23 of 28 NATO member states do not pay our agreed-upon target (including you), that we are obliged to protect you from Russia, and that defense of Russia just doesn't magically appear with a zero dollar budget.

So yes, you are forcing us to spend more, because you are freeloading.

Note how countries proximate to threats actually pay their budget. Of the 4 European countries (>>72527306 here) that pay their debnts, 3 of them are on the periphery of danger. Then there's the UK.

>b-b-b-but we're nowhere near the danger!
Yeah that sure protected countries in World War 2 when Germany rolled through Belgium. If you don't want to be part of a defensive pact, step out of it, you cuck. We won't defend you. That's fine. That's less territory we need to stretch our collective budget over.

>>72527297
>maybe you shouldnt invade goatfuckers
You seriously must be a Russian shill if you think we spend our defensive budget on goatfuckers.

NATO contains Russia, you uneducated hohol.

>>72527447
OK so when is NATO disbanding? I want to eat popcorn and watch. Can you please do it sooner?

>>72527447
And you think 2% of American military spending wouldn't be enough to protect against Russia?
Please keep in mind, that America has a much higher military budget than Russia

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>>72527381

You didn't pay a dime for NATO in Iraq and Vietnam, you dumb nigger. The 3.7% we spend does not include those failed wars.

It does, however, include failed military adventurism by France in Libya, however.

>>72527441

>o no nazis
Go ahead and actually spend money on your military, we'll laugh as you have to cut social programs and services in order to make up for it.

Either way, we'll laugh.

>>72527560

Yes, because, if you haven't fucking forgotten, we have to protect ourselves too. That means the Pacific Ocean.

Christ, why are Germans so self-centered? Why do you join defense pacts and then proceed to leech?

>but we didn't know that collective defense meant a collective budget
I swear, you are worse than Greece with money. At least they pay in.

>>72526821
They have until 2024 to reach 2%, you knuckle dragging mong.

>>72527447

>NATO contains Russia, you uneducated hohol.

that's bullshit and you know it

Any military alteration with russia would end in nuclear annihilation. Thus radar systems, anti ballistic defenses and better delivery systems are needed.

The tanks, planes and god damn 11 fucking carriers are not going to be used in an alteration with russia. As before they are deployed the world would glow green.

So no, USA do not have to spend that amount of money to protect us from russia- a country with the GPD comparable to Italy.

You are using the russia boggy man to scare us of in paying you protection money.

That's all that is, a mafia scheme for extortion.

>>72527624
>we'll laugh as you have to cut social programs and services in order to make up for it.
What are you? Poor?
Last year the state (((earned))) 7.000.000.000€ more than it needed.

>>72527624
But America alone has a higher military budget than Russia
and NATO without America has a higher military budget than NATO aswell.
I am sorry friend, I just cant see how an even higher spending would be justified

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>>72527247
i-is it time for reich?
https://youtu.be/uMZDEuiq8nQ

>>72527711
>Königgrätzer Marsch
>diese Flagge

>>72527384

>it's more in line to what Russia spends

Good try but you're not quite there.

a.) NATO has expanded since 1988 (the start point on the graph)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia. It's also recognized Bosnia, Georgia, Macedonia, and Montenegro. Out of all of these new countries, only two pay their dues, Poland and Estonia.

The rest, effectively, are more territory that we have to protect, with less money.

b.) Your graph shows a clear correlation with Britain, France, Germany, and Italy spending less money, 4% to 2.5% (still fine, above 2%), 3.6% to 2.3%, 2.9% to 1.4%, and 2.3% to 1.7%. Combined with more countries applying to NATO, this is a deadly budget cocktail of the "old guard" failing their obligations and the "new guard" (countries that have joined since 1988) thinking that they can be leeches like most of the old guard.

I'm not asking Britain to ramp up its contributions. They're already above 2%, which is the agreed contribution. Every country that is below 2% is currently a leech and needs to increase.

>>72527624

>You didn't pay a dime for NATO in Iraq and Vietnam, you dumb nigger. The 3.7% we spend does not include those failed wars.

1. Vietnam was not a war in the 20 year time period I addressed.

2. no one is forcing you externally to spend 3.7 of your GDP on that, as we are saying from the start, internally your politicians, military industrial complex and wall street speculatnts are actually forcing you to do so and because you can't say no to them, you are shouting at us for not gutting our own frail economies to emulate your aggressor mentality

>>72527710
>I am sorry friend, I just cant see how an even higher spending would be justified

I haven't argued for overall spending to increase.

In fact I explicitly said here >>72527220 if other countries met their own 2% target, the USA could ramp down its spending from 3.7% to 2% matched, and then we can actually spend our own tax dollars on our own citizens.

>make fun of Americans for not having universal healthcare
>make fun of Americans for not having free university tuition
>make fun of Americans for not having vacation time

>literally confused why this is the case, while we subsidize your defense against Russia
Americans should be absolutely livid at how non-Brit/Estonian/Greek/Poland Europeans have treated us. Absolutely fucking livid.

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>>72527656
>That's all that is, a mafia scheme for extortion.

A Bulgarian doesn't understand what a defense pact with a collective budget is?

Then don't join it, you dumb nigger. Christ. This isn't rocket science.

>defense pact
>mafia extortion
The dumb shit I read on /int/, embarrassing

>>72527855

I addressed this russia fear mongering here
>>72527656

>>72527813
>2. no one is forcing you externally to spend 3.7 of your GDP on that,

We are bound to protect your country under Article 5 of NATO.

So yes, you are forcing us to overspend because you underspend.

>>72527888

>voluntarily join a defense pact against Russia
>whine when you have to pay money into the defense pact

Then leave. You can't wiggle out of your obligations by saying "waahhhh Russian fearmongering, mommy, hold me!"

>>72527855
I am deeply moved that our security is more important to you than the welfare of your own citizens.
But please believe me, we will manage somehow. So go ahead and cut your military spending to 2% and invest the free money into healthcare, education system and more vacation time. American workers deserve that

>>72527883

The agreed upon contribution was bollocks in the first place after the fall of USSR. There is NO political entity today that threatens militarily NATO countries. So, the 2% mentioned is aimed at us emulating you, while not having the economy to do so, because YOU guys do not want to scale back. As your own internal lobbies are holding you by the balls and make you waste enormous amounts of money on fucking military frivolities that are not going to be really used in actual war with either china or russia because MAD.

>>72527794
you aint protecting shit though

the only reason you accepted us was to bomb serbs from our airports

so suck my big hungarian dick you stupid fatso

>>72527904

Because the initial percentage was set with cold war mentality in mind. It is no longer needed, so instead of scaling down, you beat the drums to scale up, something that can only benefit you guys and your bigger dick foreign policy. It makes no difference if sadam or gaddafi trade their oil in dollars or euroes, but it dose for you. So you go to wars with them, protecting your economic interests, we get nothing in following you there.

>>72528010
>the only reason you accepted us

Key word "accept." You applied. We didn't annex you like the Soviets did.

Why did you apply?

When we get to the heart of that question, we'll continue talking.

>>72528124

>Because the initial percentage was set with cold war mentality in mind. It is no longer needed, so instead of scaling down, you beat the drums to scale up,

Have you read a single fucking post I've written?

I've outright said that the USA should scale down from 3.7% to 2.0%. This will be offset by Europeans not being freeloaders and actually paying their 2% dues. I give credit to the UK, Greece, Poland, and Estonia: they are doing what they promised to the defense alliance.

That is not "scaling up," that is doing what you promised when you joined the treaty.

If you do not want to pay, leave the treaty. Seriously. No one is stopping you. This isn't Soviet Russia. But you might find yourself part of Russia in 2020.

I'd be ok with basically doing away with NATO and having a common, well-funded EU army

I think it'd benefit Europe at least

>>72528127
because serbs were shelling us?
hello, it was war in the neighbourhood and we didnt want any?

>>72528127

>When we get to the heart of that question, we'll continue talking.

In the aftermath of the cold war may eastern european countries were unsure of their future as the world policy and relations were in flux. So we opted in joining NATO to gain a form of stability in the uncertain world. As of now the world is stable and none-threatening. With it we can't really understand as to why the spending must be that high. That is a question you are not answering. It is just assumed we should because you say so. So, 1 to 1.5 percent is a normal sum to pay for defense but that's not enough not because it will not cover it. It will not cover the constant offensive wars you are fighting under the mask of pre-emptive strikes and other bollocks like that.

>>72528262

Congrats, you answered step 1 of the question.
Now onto step 2: why do you think you are entitled to our services without contributing to the NATO budget?

Seriously now. You have 3 options now that the Warsaw Pact is dead, NATO, an EU army, or your own separate national army. You're not required to join NATO.

The only thing required to do while in NATO is to pay into the budget, which is how we pay for all of those neat little toys that protect you from Serbian shelling.

I don't care if you have the most pathetic GDP in the world, 10 million dollars or 10 trillion dollars, so long as you pay proportionally to the budget like everyone else.

>>72528235

I am completely fine with this because it takes burden off us.

>>72528349
>As of now the world is stable and none-threatening. With it we can't really understand as to why the spending must be that high. That is a question you are not answering

So leave the treaty? You haven't addressed this.

If you think the world, which has seen Russia annex chunks of Ukraine and attack Georgia in the past decade, is not dangerous, fine.

Go it alone. I'm legitimately saying this, not sarcasm. You are one less country to defend.

To say "wow paying for this defense pact is dumb" and staying in it, is however, hypocritical. If you don't want to pay for it, leave it.

>>72528423
I'll turn this around on you since you're the one crying about spending - disband NATO. Nobody would give a fuck

>>72528357
you arent giving anything though, you actually use our airports for transportations for free

you should be paying us desu

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Nato is a joke.

>>72528508
>nobody would give a fuck
yeah maybe not edgy teens on the internet, no

>>72528586
Brits least of all. You're the 51st state in all but name, you don't need NATO at all

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>>72526964
This is why Estonia are good lads and worth protecting and fighting alongside.

>>72526964

>Estonia placed above the UK

this triggers my autism

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>>72527794
>I'm not asking Britain to ramp up its contributions. They're already above 2%, which is the agreed contribution.

We need to up our spending. The cutbacks in the Royal navy in particular is shocking. Despite them currently building two new aircraft carriers, new attack submarines and supply tankers, we need many more bread and butter ships like frigates. The 13 Type 23's are coming to the end of their life and they're being replaced with 8 new Type 26 frigates, along with an unknown number of new Type 31. We need much more than that.

>>72526821
We need to pay the EU, which is more expensive.

>>72529322
The US will pay for our defense and there is nothing your big orange baby can do about that. His (((masters))) won't allow him to pull out of NATO.

>using coincidence quotes
>when Israel isn't even a member of NATO

I wonder how many IQ points someone loses per day of viewing /pol/. Is it more, or less, than huffing paint fumes?

>>72527023
>>72526971
>>72527089
>>72527247
>>72527372
>>72527441
>>72527560
>>72527698
>>72527710
>>72527711
>>72527791
>>72527966
>>72529522

pay denbts

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>tfw our commie national socialist government aims for 4% of GDP
russia we war u

>>72527247
We do. In the press conference when our prime minister was asked by german press whether if it would worried us if germany boosted their defense spending he started laughing and said no. I too agree with him, boost your defense spending

>>72527247

>thinking this has anything to do with matter

Germany is only 1 of 23 countries that underfunds NATO. However you're probably the most important, besides France.

>>72529674
(((They))) control Europe through NATO.
Just look at what happened when France said "Fuck off" and threw you guys out of the country.

>allowing Der Ewige Kraut to build army again
Oh boy sure it worked the last time didn't it.

German armed forces should be limited to gendarmerie tasks, anti terrorism and border/coast Guard to keep the civilians in check.

Replacing German soldiers with foreign NATO brigades in German army bases sounds like a much saner idea.

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>>72529263
Ramps will continue to make Britain great.

>>72530219
Will Poland guarantee the security of Germany then?
Would Polish soldiers be ready to die for Germans?

We have a saying in Lithuania
If you want peace, be ready for way

>>72529522
You are absolutely wrong about that. NATO isn't a charity. The US pays all that money in to it on the basis that we're getting some benefit out of it, which at the moment is almost nothing.

A lot of the countries in NATO have long been abusing US military protection by not paying for it, nor really adhering to us politically, which begs the question, what are we getting out of it anymore?

>>72530118

France has the highest population of jews in europe, about a half million.

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>>72526867
>according to this chart we are basically less of an ally than Turkey
>tfw you realize germoney will probably not pay the debts because muh economy

Thank you Merkel.

>>72530304
You dont pay money for NATO, you pay money for your own military. You would keep that military, even if NATO would disband.
The only difference would be that you couldn't use European military bases for your military operations anymore

if this burger anon is average american voter than we really need european army asap, thang god UK is out...they will block it

>>72530600
>than we really need european army asap,

Implying that you'd even pay into an European army, freeloader.

Instead of having this discussion now about why you're leeching, you'll just be giving Brussels the same excuses.

Tragedy of the fucking commons. To a T.

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>>72527089
>>72526971
>being this new

>>72530294
No, that's the whole shtick.

>>72530304
we are in in NATO since 1999

since than we still have troops in fucking afghanistan

what benefit is USA in NATO for us? two pointless wars

>>72526921
no bully hungaria leaf

>>72530600
Yeah because that isn't going to push moderates to the right

Wait

>>72530294
Are we talking Germans or "New Germans"

>>72530768
why you care? only scotland is welcome in european army

>>72530816
NuGermans mot probably

>>72530600
Not sure France would be too happy about a European army. They'd probably prefer to deepen ties with the UK. Even Germany will be signing a new defence pact with Britain after Article 50 is triggered.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/20/britain-germany-set-sign-new-defence-co-operation-pact/

The UK will continue to work with other European countries militarily.

>>72530891
Then hopefully no.

>mfw european nationalist but Merkel is destroying your dream state

>>72530868
Greece is better off financially than Scotland...

>>72530569
I know you guys just see this whole situation with Trump, NATO, and Germany as flippant nonsense, but this has been building from well before Trump, and you should take it seriously.

Did you ever wonder why Obama tapped Merkel's phone? The US has clearly been skeptical of Germany's motives for a while now. The EU has NEVER been in the interests of the US. Obama pretty obviously intentionally provoked Britain to vote leave by going to their country and lecturing them to stay since he knew it'd have an adverse reaction.

The EU is basically Germany's little pet project to politically centralize power in Europe, and meanwhile you're putting in paltry funding to NATO despite being the single largest economy in Europe.

Don't think Trump is joking when he says he wants to renegotiate NATO.

Why should any country pay for NATO, a totally useless organization?

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>>72530950
> european nationalist

>>72530924
well than your only hope is Le Pen

Macron love the idea of euroepan army

>>72530985
Why would anyone pay for the UN for that matter?

>>72530981
2% is target for 2024

>>72530719

>what is deterrence

did you sleep through history class?
or are you a teenager who thinks that military alliances are designed to increase bloodshed and warfare, not prevent it?

the worst part about deterrence is that it's so easy for uninformed people to see nothing happening, so obviously, they conclude, it's "a waste."

why even bother with any preventative measures anyway? why get vaccines against diseases? "I don't get sick, and I don't see anything happening, so it must be pointless"

>>72531044

Yeah, and when 2024 rolls around, you'll say 2044 is the target for 2%.

>>72529846
Neat.
First the babyboom now this, could it be that your government is actually based?

>>72531261
>your government is actually based?
Lol not really.
The whole babyboom report is sketchy. Taking a leap from fert. rate of 0.8 to 1.4 maybe be significant statistically but it's still below replacement rate.

Their pro-family policies are grand ideas but execution is shit. Poland in a nutshell.

>>72530981
yes yes
I get it. We are still evil bastards and need to be put down before we chimp out again.
Fuck off.

And yes, I take it serious, but I can´t do anything about it so what should I do? Maybe we will pay, maybe not. Only the future knows.

>>72530981
>Obama says that europeans *cough* germany *cough* should take more responsibility
>no one cares

>trump says the same
>everybody chimps out

also:
>sign contract which obligates you to spend money on the military
>don't do that
>Trump comes in and says that you should adhere to the contract
>be appalled

is there anyone scummier than german politicians?

>>72531458
Look, I'm not calling Germany evil. The main problem here is that we basically pay your entire defense, but we're not getting really anything out of it since you're clearly not our post-WW2 glorified vassel anymore.

We also pay for Japan's defense, but they don't attempt to undermine the relationship, so we're completely content defending them. However Germany has been going out and forming unions that are directly bad for us, all the while still having us pay for your shit.

At least pay for our protection, or form your own army. I don't care which.

>>72531899
>or form your own army. I don't care which.

what's outright hilarious to me is that, at least in this thread, they seriously think we care

I don't wish ill will upon Europe, but I don't want their prosperity to come at our expense.

>>72532096
Same here. My main point is that Trump is absolutely right when he says Germany is currently getting more out of the relationship than we are.

NATO, the EU, and our military occupation in Germany really needs to be sorted out.

>>72532194
didn't he and Obama also expand on the trade imbalance between Germany and the US?

>>72531899
Whatever. I hope we pay for the protection.
I want healthier relationships with other countries and paying the debts could bring this dream a little bit closer.

>americans complaining about their high milltary spending
>trump just anounced the federal budget in which he gave the most to milltary
zing

>>72526867
Made us give up our military fetish. Complains we don't love war enough

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>2% of its GDP
NONBINDING
GUIDELINE

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>>72527023
>>72527089
>>72527247
>>72527372
>>72527441
>>72527560
>>72527710
>>72527711
>>72527791
>>72527966
>>72529522
>>72530118
>>72530294
>>72530702
>>72530891
>>72530986
>>72531035
>>72531261
>>72531588
when did we finally recognize germany as the booty blasted nation it really is?

Humor has no meaning in german culture, they are physiologically incapable of grasping it. They can't help but get butthurt at everything and they unironically argue on behalf of the EU.

>Pay fucking denbts

>>72526964
lol no :^)

>>72532389
thats ok italy you are too kawaii for war anyway :3

>>72530816
Are you Polish or new Polish? Oh wait Poland is worthless and always was so it doesn't matter

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>>72532432
Sankyuuu USA senpai :3

>>72532294
In most cases our military spending serves a real purpose. It's essentially bribing other countries in exchange for various things.

Specifically in the case with us and Germany and most of Europe though, we've basically been footing their defense spending for little actual benefit for decades now.

>Germany is out NATO and join to Russia
>Anglos on suicide watch

>>72532482
2/10 made me reply

>>72532574
Russia is actually in a very unique position right now. You're basically the boogie man for why NATO even exists. Both the US and the EU might try to entice you to join their side as the biggest bargaining chip in this fued.

>>72532574
>we no longer have to pay large amounts of money to defend europe
>implying we wouldn't be happy

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>>72532574
Is it time again?

>>72526964
>>72526867
I seriously don't get why Italy doesn't get shit for its historical sneakyness. We're like the Sam Hyde of history, we jsut keep getting away with it.

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>>72532377
>5 (You)s

>>72533171
It's because nobody really perceives you as a threat or particularly ambitious. Germany on the other hand is still clearly very ambitious in the geopolitical world.

>>72529263
The UK is reopening its naval base in Bahrain where 5 ships will be permanently based. What ships these will be I don't know.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/five-ships-to-be-permanently-based-in-bahrain/

>>72526867
If you outspend your enemies they win.

Fuck NATO

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>>72534155

what do you care? you're not even part of it, you irrelevant cuck

>>72534440
NATO is shit though, it shouldn't exist anymore. Europe doesn't need to be babied now especially not when they are forming a union.

>>72534440
>what do you care?

Because some of our cuck politicians are for joining the horrid organization. Fuck no.

>>72532294
You forgot something
>americans complaining about their high milltary spending
>trump just anounced the federal budget in which he gave the most to milltary
>Americans continue to be angry and complain about military spending.

>>72529086
it's fun how we don't give a fuck about this

>>72532377
>Humor has no meaning in german culture
Nothing's as outdated as yesterday's joke

>>72531588
>>sign contract which obligates you to spend money on the military
We never did such a thing. The 2% target is non-binding.

We were forced into NATO, pay for your occupation troops yourself or free our country.

>>72534613
Same here. The Supreme Commander of our armed forces practically begged our government to do it.

>>72526964
>NATO won't protect Ceuta or Melilla if Morocco attacks

Even that 0.89% it's too much.

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>>72526964
Already overpaying.

>>72537201
Frankly our armed branch has always been extremely against it, it's just officepoliticians and those who get carried away by the fearmongering who actually are for it.