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What do you know/think about the Byzantine Empire? How was i

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What do you know/think about the Byzantine Empire?
How was its history taught in your country's schools?

Here's a 12th century Jewish text that describes how Constantinople was back then:
http://i.imgur.com/6uLEhAO.png
>>
Byzantium was the most glorious country on human history.
>>
We're taught about Justinian in high school, but nothing after that. My Western Civ class in college talked a bit about it, comparing the Frankish Empire to that of the Abbasids and the Byzantines.

I myself know a lot and I intend to be a Byzantinologist someday.
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I came to hurt butts
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never learned about them in school. i didn't really know who they were until i played medieval: total warw
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>>30339882

Why are historians specializing in the Byzantine Empire so superior to those specializing in the Ottoman Empire?

Honestly there's almost no good books about the Ottomans out there in English, while there's plenty of engaging Byzantine histories that tell you everything about the structure of the state and the causes & effects for its decline.
>>
>"The Greeks who inhabit the country are extremely rich and possess great wealth of gold and precious stones. They dress in garments of silk ornamented by gold and other valuable materials; they ride upon horses and in their appearance they are like princes. The country is rich producing all sorts of delicacies as well abundance of bread, meat and wine and nothing upon earth equals their wealth. They are well skilled in the Greek sciences and live comfortable, 'every man under his vine and his fig tree' "

We shall take back Constantinople so we can pay our dendbts :(
>>
Nothing really.

We mostly focus on larger themes, such as the evolution of economy or culture, and in the grand scheme of things, even an empire as great as the Byzantine one is quite insignificant.

Good thing I'm a history enthusiats and regularly browse wikipedia / play related videogames / read history books. But even then, I know much less of Byzantium than the Roman Empire, for example.
>>
>>30340024
People for some reason think Greeks did nothing after Ancient history because they are not taught about the Byzantine Empire.

Greece to Byzantine Empire was what Russia was to Soviet Union.

In 1,000 years it would be like saying that Russia had nothing to do with Soviet Union which likely would piss people off.

Greece & Serbia also formed their eternal brotherhood in Byzantine Empire and there was even Scandiniavian Viking Warriors who worked for Greeks. THere are tons of Viking grafitti all over Byzantine ruins
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We were taught about Justinian I, his code of law, his generals Belisarius and Narses and how he can be considered the Eastern Roman equivalent of Charlemagne in the sense of how close he was to restore the glory of the Roman Empire during the Prncipate period. There was also a mention to the fall of Constatinople and how some historians considered such event the end of the Middle Ages, instead of the discovery of the Americas.
>>
>>30339355
We barely talk about the Byzantine empire, in fact we only see the fall of Constantinople.
>>
>>30340175
>We mostly focus on larger themes, such as the evolution of economy or culture
This seems like an interesting way to teach history.
Sure there probably are some cons, but I think that your schools teach history in a way that you understand humanity through it.
>>
>>30340238
>Serbia also formed their eternal brotherhood in Byzantine Empire
what the fuck we fought against the byzantine empire until the ottoman arrival
>>
lelfaggots
>>
>>30340364

Honestly my experience with basic history classes at a university have been really positive. The textbooks by Lynn Hunt are stellar.
>>
>>30340411
This is not quite true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece%E2%80%93Serbia_relations#Historical
>>
>>30340496
I might sound like a dick, but I can't stand reading anglo historians. It's always full of anecdotes and it just doesn't feel very serious.
>>
>>30340024
It varies. There is historians specialized about Ottomans and books written by them but they don't get attention from your people. Also there is a lot of Turkish historians specialised about pre-Turkish Anatolia and Byzantium but our people don't care about them. If you ask an ordinary man in Istanbul, he would say Ottoman specialised historians are superior.
>>
>>30339355
It was the actual successor the Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire (of the German Nation), Sultanate of Rum, and Ottoman Empire can go home.

But anyway, it was impressive, though it had its ups and down throughout history until the Ottomans finally fucked Constantinople up with giant cannons.
>>
>>30340589
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece%E2%80%93Serbia_relations#Historical
you're reinforcing what i've said
the serbs were the allies of the normans in their first invasion
the serbs were members of 3 anti-byzantine coalitions during the 11th century
the nemanji?s were members of ~10 different anti-byzantine coalitions (milutin alone was member of 2)
not to mention at least 3 great revolts against the byzantine rule in the 9th and 10th century and cooperation with the pope
>>
>>30339355
Btw guys. Read that text, it's really good.
>>
>>30340175
>such as the evolution of economy or culture
Yeah, and the culture course sucked balls. Remembering insignificant details about Gothic architecture, Baroque painting styles and evolution of popular music was zero fun. They didn't even mention any Ancient Greek deities when discussing their religions ffs.

But the International Relations course was fun as fuck. I wish we had a similar course for time periods that go further than 1800, though.
>>
>>30339355
They teach it in Sophomore/Junior year during Asian/World History classes.

We're basically told its the Bit of Roman Empire that didn't die off but stagnated and died whose only job in history was holding off Kebab and eventually getting overwhelmed by the Turks and their XBOX HUEG Cannon.
>>
>>30340808
That's why I added the word "quite".
In general the relationships were mainly friendly.
>>
>>30341019
name one ruler friendly to the byzantines except radoslav and stefan lazarevi?
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>>30339355
i am byzantboo
>that text
i want revenge for 1204
its not kebab, its seavirus that killed Romania
>>
>>30341094
Ah sorry I don't know that much.
You seem to know better, so I 'll end that here :P
>>
>>30341113
Genoa and Venice were the only ones who fought alongside Constantine XI in 1453. Where were the Serbs at that time ? At least, we french had an excuse, the 100 years war wasn't over.
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>>30341094
>try to conquer Constantinople in 1355
>allied with Bulgtatars and seavirus
>fail because serbs are incompetnent idiots who only produced ONE good Conqueror
>Turks take over everything
>nooooo we lover you Byzantinum we wanted to cherish you always

fucking Serbs.

but I guess Serbian-Byzantine wars werent as violent as Serbian-Bulgarian wars, but thats also because bulgtatars had more clay/people.
>>
>be part of the Catholic sphere
>Pope intercedes to keep things relatively peaceful.
>rulers only fight over inheritances and the like
>occasional Crusade is launched against the enemies of the common faith

>be part of the Orthodox sphere
>everybody wants to be the Emperor
>"BY GOD I WILL REIGN IN CONSTANTINOPLE AS AUTOCRAT OF THE EARTH, FUCK YOU."
>everybody gets killed by Turks
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>>30341375
Where were Venetians in 1204? Oh thats right waiting to sack, rape and pillage the Queen of all Cities, the shining jewel of the world and Christendom. Only good thing about seavirus is they at least had civilization enough to take the spoils with them, unlike filthy Frankish illiterates who melt everything.

>I'd rather see a Turkish turban than a Latin mitre [in the city]
Loukas Notaras, 1453
>>
>>30341397
Indeed, the Byzantine empire was destroyed due to their fucked up succession. That and shitty neo-platonism.
>>
>>30341397
>the barbarian way
>the Roman way
>>
>No Jew dwells in the city with them, having been expelled beyond the one arm of the sea.

>No Jew is allowed to ride upon a horse

>This state of oppression is severely felt by them and is enhanced by the practice of the tanners who pour out their filthy water in their streets and even before the very doors of the Jews, who being thus defiled, become objects of hatred to the Greeks.

>Their yoke is severely felt by the Jews, both good and bad, they are exposed to be beaten in the streets and must submit to all sorts of bad treatment

/pol/ would be proud
>>
>>30341726
this wasnt always the case. The Empire was less anti-semitic than western barbarians. That said, much like with Islam and the Ottomans, you were really only first-class citizen if you were Orthodox.

>Although the Justinian Code remained in force in the Eastern Empire until the ninth century,[8] the period following Justinian's reign was generally characterized by toleration of non-Christians, particularly the Jews. One exception to this was Heraclius, who reigned from 610 to 641, and was the first emperor to force the conversion of Jews to Christianity.[18] Following his death, and until 1204, the Jews suffered only three notable legal persecutions, the sum of whose span was roughly fifty years.[19] It is even debated whether the first of these—the anti-Jewish measures passed during the reign of Leo III the Isaurian—could be considered a persecution.[20] The second of these, during the reign of Basil I from 867 to 886, briefly punctuated the tolerance of the ninth century.[18] The last of these persecutions took place under John Tzimiskes, who reigned from 969 to 976. Accordingly, there were no recorded legal persecutions of the Jews for nearly two and a half centuries following his reign.[20]
>>
>>30340024
There are good Ottomanists, bro. Check out Halil Inalcik, Donald Quataert, Selim Deringil, M. ?ükrü Hanio?lu, maybe Shaw but he's an Armenian Genocide denier and kind of outcast.

Most "Near Eastern studies" (or whatever it's currently fashionable to call Orientalist departments) are simply less popular and relatively understaffed compared to more Occidental stuff in the West, for obvious reasons. But they still have excellent professional scholars.

Whitey here btw.
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>>30341534
their own fault for acting like niggers while killing latins. byzans were sneaky liars and deserved what they got.

also
>poor as shit peasents going on crusade
>not expecting them to loot

lol
4th best crusade
>>
>>30342424
Your barbarian genetics are showing m8
>>
>>30342424
>>30341534

4th crusade best crusade*
>>
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4TH CRUSADE BEST CRUSADE
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>>30342730
>>
>>30342730
Chinese didn't take part in 4th crusade CHang
>>
>>30339355
Greatest enemy. I miss them. Another war when?
>>
>>30339355
was never even discussed at school. Learned everything from Empire Earth, CK2 and Wikipedia
>>
>>30342551
lol Varangian pleb
Go serve our superior King, Halvdan
>>
>>30343121

>"Haldvan is gay"
>>
I know quite a lot about Eastern Roman/Byzantine history, culture and religion (regarding the latter, that's because I'm an Eastern Rite Catholic)
My high school didn't teach us anything about European history outside of Britain in the 19th Century and the world wars. Always hated those classes because of how limited the course was and the fact that the teacher was strongly opinionated and liked to put his left-wing views into everything.
>>
>>30343188
top kek
>>
>>30339355
I've got a friend who loves it in Autism universalis IV, thats something
>>
>>30341397
>medieval western europe was peaceful
>>
>>30343306
But it was much better and more relevant in Crusader Kings II, unlike Autism Universalis IV
>>
>>30343306
You're damn right nigger. Fucking awesome game
>>
>>30339355
Something's wrong with this map, Serdica is not that north. [spoiler]i live there[/spoiler]
>>
>>30343344
Well, if you look at how successions worked in western Europe, it was way more peaceful. The only country when Kings actually got executed was England, but for mainland Europe, killing a king was some sort of taboo. In the byzantine empire, usurpations and backstabbing happened all the time.
>>
kebab ruined everything for everyone
the sickman that spreads the sickness
>>
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>>30343374
Depends. If you go with VeF you're in for a ride
>>
>>30343462
Balkans would've probably been a civilized region now if it wasn't for kebab
>>
>>30343119
>>30343289
Can you please describe to me how history(in general) is taught in UK schools?
For example, how many hours for history class compared to mathematics?
>>
>>30343121
but i'm not even danish, i'm dutch
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>>30343711
True. I'm more of an Extended Timeline guy myself though.
(Went Greece > Byzantine Empire > Roman Empire this game)
>>
>>30339355
We study it in school, but rather briefly.
Also, funny, the book I read now is "The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire" by Luttwak. Really interesting book.
>>
>>30344049
ET is a great concept, but fails because of it's simplistic mechanics when it deals with major timeline events. Seriously. A huge byzantine empire with mecca under it's wing should not become the magical rashidun califate
>>
>>30339355
Kommenian dynasty was based as fuck, they brought the empire from ruin and restored it's former glory. Too bad that Andronikos kommenoa fucked things up and the Angeloi came in, which fucked things up beyond repair
>>
>>30344306
And yes this is my autistic friend
>>
>>30344156
I haven't read any of his book, but I have seen this interview of him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev1DUkOUWG4
and his views on the subject seem quite interesting.
I 'll read it when I have the time.

What are you mainly focusing on in history class there?
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>>30344306
It's pretty fun if you start at one particular time period, play with the intention of going through only that and creating a crazy alternative history.
I've had a lot of fun as the Mongols recently, especially with their unique province annexing mechanic. But yeah, the mod just can't simulate something like the American Civil war or the world wars well at all.
Besides, just blobbing all over the place with modern borders is pretty fun.
>>
>>30344349
stop samefagging int. I'm ashamed of living in the same country
>>
>>30344507
Yeah umad
>>
>>30339355
We learned mostly about Justinian and how his wife was a whore. We touched upon it falling to the ottomans but not much else.
>>
>>30344156

I've only skimmed it. Comparing what I've read to Warren Treadgold's History of the Byzantine State and Society, it seems that the Byzantines got themselves fucked up in the 12th century because of the strategies they inherited blindly from the earlier centuries.

In the 7th century Constantinople was a citadel of civilization amidst a sea of barbarity, and it was being assailed from all sides. The winning strategy was to play its enemies off against each other and maximize its gains with as little application of military force as possible. In the 12th century the rest of the world had settled down, but the Byzantines were doing the same thing. They alternated between being friends and enemies with every nation, including the Turks. No permanent and faithful alliance was made like that which existed between England and Portugal. When the walls of Byzantium came crashing down, they had cultivated a reputation for perfidy that antagonized everybody.
>>
>>30344570

And yes I know the 13th century was when the Fourth Crusade happened, but the policies of the Komneneans are partly to blame for what happened.
>>
>>30339355
>How was its history taught in your country's schools?

"There was the Roman Empire, and then there was the Easter "Roman" Empire, who weren't catholics".
That's pretty much it.
>>
>>30344477
He has other cool books about warcraft and how to make coup d'etat))

I dont really remember what we studied, Im 32 yo, but I think it was like half about history of Russia and half about other countries.
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>>30344049
Crazy alternative history is the best thing with ET.
>>
There's a guy who always gives great insight on Byzantine history on /r/AskHistorians.
His comments are always pure gold.
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1iyf6e/what_was_the_difference_in_quality_of_life_in/cb9fuub

And an AMA along with two other great guys:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1pb7o0/ama_byzantine_empire/
>>
>>30340238
>Greece to Byzantine Empire was what Russia was to Soviet Union.
Would you mind elaborating on that analogy or redirecting me to further literature that ascertains this analogy? I'm genuinely curious about the Byzantine Empire and I wish to expand my knowledge on it.
>>
>>30344953
Well, westerners called the Roman Empire as Empire of the Greeks, as you can see from the text, so there 's that.
>>
>>30344953
Also, my grandparent's and all their ancestor called themselves Romans (??????), almost never Greek, so there's that too :P
>>
>>30344870
Fuck, how big is your army?
>>
I see there are probably a couple of historians around here.

Weren't slavs invading settlers? Why do so many of them seem so proud of the Byzantine, then? Just because of religion?
>>
>>30344870
>Roman Kebabland
Annex it. Looks awful as an enclave on the map.
>>
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>>30344870
>roman kebabland
>>
>>30345177
Smaller than what you would expect I guess. I have pretty much used same armies to crush enemies one by one for past 700 years.
>>
>>30345472
It's a reservation, just like the ones you guys built.
>>
>>30339687
>Byzantinologist
i-is that contagious?
>>
>>30339355

It was too arrogant for its own good.

It adopted fighting styles from its neighbors but it didn't know how to make any real improvements.

Most the changes it made were done so by learning the hard way.
>>
>>30339355
They didn't teach anything about the Byzantines in American public school. I had to find out about it via video games. American public schooling is OH LAWD SLAVERYYYYY in every history class at every level, followed quickly by OY VEY HOLOCAUUUUST!!! American History was short five second blurbs about scientists or cultural figures, followed by an entire month dedicated to the great and amazing things some nameless black tap dancer did. Because when I think of Western Civilization, I think of black tap dancers.

Anyway, I wouldn't say I got a "real" history class until I hit the college level. Learned about Byzantium. Love their artwork and architecture.

You Greeks had a good thing going which you fucked up with civil wars.
>>
>>30345759
the timeline I got from elementary school into high school (if I hadn't read and played the vidya) goes:
>Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, and the Indus River Valley
>TIME SKIP! Alexander the Great
>TIME SKIP! Roman Republic
>Roman Empire
>TIME SKIP! The renaissance
>The enlightenment in Europe
>MURKAN REVOLUTION
>MURKA
>MURKA MURKA
>SLAVERY
>HOLOCAUST
>9/11

I remember looking at some of the pictures in my history textbooks and saying "Wait... hang on what's this Holy Roman Empire thing? And this Byzantine Empire? Woah what's going on in Asia that shit looks crazy"
>>
>>30345759
this

american public schools are so narrative basedi t's fucking annoying
>>
>>30344626
The civil wars are more to blame. The Komnenoi family prolonged the empire and rebuilt the army which was basically gutted by the Turks.

If anything was to blame, it was Byzantine internal politics, not external enemies. The expressions "Byzantine politics" and "Plotting while the barbarians are at the gates" both stem from the propensity of the imperial government to keep up its retard-tier political jostling instead of uniting as a nation to fight off enemies. Hell, part of the reason why the Byzantines paid tribute was because the sitting emperor was afraid if he left the capitol and went to the field with his armies, he'd either be killed out in the field by plotters or come home and find someone else on his throne.
>>
>>30345982
In here it's something like this:

>something about minoans
>something about myceneans
>a bit of greek archaic period (~8th century BC)
>persian wars
>classic greece, mainly athens
>peloponnesian war
>alexander
>???
>maybe a page about greece getting conquered by the romans
>????????
>roman empire split WE BYZANTIUM NOW
>a lot of byzantium because <3 christianity <3
>1453
>?????????????
>1821, greek war of independence

I remember being confused as fuck about who/what minoans and myceneans were. Hell, even their names are kinda similar.

It's a shame that we learn next to nothing about other great civilizations, like persians (we only learn that we beat them and then conquered them), romans (le throwing of christians to the lions), lydians, phrygians, egyptians etc that actually were influential to us. We actually learn more about hebrews, because in greek schools there's a course named "religion" or something, which is essentially christian propaganda.
>>
>>30346529
do greeks dislike jews?

i mean, jews celebrate a freaking holiday about killing greeks
>>
>>30344953
Here: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/18msgx/were_byzantines_todays_greeks/c8g9mgh
>>
>>30346780
When did jews kill greeks?
>>
>>30346969
Maccabees ? That's the only thing I can think of.
>>
>>30346853
Thanks man.
>>
>>30346853
Seeing Reddit seems way better to talk about this stuff kinda make me mad. Why the fuck don't we have a history broad when we have /mlp/ and /vp/ ?
>>
>>30341392
What's with this tatar shit?
>>
>>30346780
Meh mixed feelings... (though almost noone likes Israel)
And historically, some times we were getting along and some others we were really oppressing them (as you can see in the text >>30341726).
We don't really care/know about Hannukah and stuff; it's not anything important outside of Jewish religion.
>>
>>30347387
Good question. Why isn't there a history board yet. I've been seeing people asking for it for years now.
>>
Greatest Empire of all time

Marble Emperor when
>>
>>30347471
http://www.ibm5100.net/his/
>>
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>Dat western Anatolia
>>
>>30347452
greeks are a lot more open and friendly and more willing to get outsiders involved in their practices

jews are the complete opposite

it's almost completely opposite cultures, so i find it funny how it would mix
>>
>>30346780
what he said >>30347452


fun fact, the university of thessaloniki, with the biggest campus in the balkans is built upon the former jewish cemetery
>>
Turks are shit
>>
>>30344049
>dat Central Lithuania
top kek
>>
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>>30347475
soon
>>
>>30347621
lol #rekt

jews didn't complain? no way
>>
Can Greeks read medieval greek ? I know they're able to understand classical greek, but is the medieval one different/harder ?
>>
>>30347798
It happened before they got the diplomatic carte blance that came with the holocaust
>>
>tfw Tolkien's inspiration for Gondor was Byzantium
>except in his version, Rohan didn't loot the city, then leave it to the orcs and Haradrim
>>
>>30347875
Medieval Greek is really easy to understand, even for a peasant. By medieval Greek I mean the written surviving texts; these are written in a "high" language with many ancient elements
Colloquial medieval is believed to be pretty much the same as modern.
>>
>>30339355
We learn like half a page about them in all primary-high school history.
>Ancient Turks allied with Byzantines against Sassanids
jump
>1071 (and how Alparslan spares like of some important person or emperor idk)
>1176
jump
>le jolly 1453 and Mehmed II. names himself Caesar of Rum, get hyper, starts the invasion to Italy and gets poisoned by a kike)
That's all folks
>>
>>30347875
written medieval greek is almost identical to modern greek.
In link it's the epic of Digenis Akritas, circa 10nth century AD, it's so easy to understand it's almost funny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digenes_Akritas
>>
Why is Constantine XI Palaiologos the greatest emperor of any empire of all time?

>Before the beginning of the siege, Mehmed II made an offer to Constantine XI. In exchange for the surrender of Constantinople, the emperor's life would be spared and he would continue to rule in Mistra; to which, as preserved by G. Sphrantzes, Constantine replied:

>"To surrender the city to you is beyond my authority or anyone else's who lives in it, for all of us, after taking the mutual decision, shall die out of free will without sparing our lives."

>His last recorded words were: "The city is fallen and I am still alive." Then he tore off his imperial ornaments so as to let nothing distinguish him from any other soldier and led his remaining soldiers into a last charge where he was killed.

Rest in Peace and God be with you always, you brave selfless man.
>>
>>30348046
>>30348083
Alright, thanks, I think it's pretty impressive. I wish I could understand latin, even old french is hard sometimes.
>>30348123
Based, I would have died with him.
>>
>>30348123
>>
>>30348123
>We will never have a leader this great ever again
>>
>>30348123
>His last recorded words were: "The city is fallen and I am still alive." Then he tore off his imperial ornaments so as to let nothing distinguish him from any other soldier and led his remaining soldiers into a last charge where he was killed.

Man why can't we have a leader as based as that
>>
>>30348123
He tore off his imperial regalia and died like a common soldier because the Turks would have made a fucking demoralizing spectacle of him had he not, the memory of which would last centuries. That's the medieval equivalent to taking one for the team.

I mean what did the Turks do after taking the city? Fucking bulldoze into all the churches and turn them into mosques, rape women, murder freely, etc. You really don't wanna be the guy who reigned over all that happening, and lived.
>>
>>30343458
That had to do with how aristocracy in the West became spiritually superior to being a peasant because of how most church men at the time were aristocrats themselves.

The East was more egalitarian, but at the cost of being irreverent when it came to things like regicide. That's not to say the West wasn't just as violent for a time - they copied a lot of Byzantine models in the early medieval period including blinding and mutilating political rivals.
>>
>>30354784
Well at least the Hagia Sofia was spared
>>
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>>30355366
Except for the parts they painted over.
>>
>>30355434
Soon all that heretical calligraphy will be removed along with the turks
>>
>>30348123
>Why is Constantine XI Palaiologos the greatest emperor of any empire of all time?
He wasn't, because he lost the city, and doomed it to a siege, then abandoned his people for his own honor.
>>
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>>30355629
>abandoned his people

He fought and died alongside his people you numbnuts
>>
>>30355857
Those were his soldiers, many of whom weren't even citizens but mercenaries.
>>
>>30355629
I would rather fight than bow to turkshits willingly

He made the right choice
>>
>>30355629
Turk diaspora detected
>>
>>30356086
>>30356282
And this is how you weed out the selfish fascists from the public servants.
>>
>>30356414
lolberal / lolbertarian detected
Thread posts: 132
Thread images: 23


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