Why people lie about talent?

>>3078520
True. I learnd this too late. wasted so much time.
No I just do art as a hobby. If you talent anon then go for it. For us normies, don't bother. ngmi

>>3078520
We should really stop calling it "talent" and start calling it "aptitude". Talent is a result of aptitude.

>>3078520
Because the people who ask about talent aren't intermediates looking to go pro, they're "have never tried to draws" and "never tried to seriously draw" trying to get to beginner/intermediate tier.

Not everybody can become a mathematical genius but honestly unless you have actual mental deficiencies you have no excuse for at the very least not having a solid grasp on basic algebra.

"Talent" is real in art, but it only becomes apparent at the higher levels. Anyone can "git gud", not everyone can be a master, but honestly speaking very few people will actually need to be masters in order to succeed in whatever they want to use their art skills for.

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also

>tfw you know you'll never make it because it's physically impossible for you to stay focused for more than an hour

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You self-loathing trash should really leave this imageboard. We get it - you lack discipline and you have to cry about how bad you are.

I hate hearing and seeing stupid fucking losers who masturbate themselves with pity. You are what's wrong with every community commited to improvement.

>>3078532
>thinks he's going to improve by coming to /ic/

>>3078535
I am going to improve by myself, not by some niggers of improvement.

>>3078524
Yeah... OP here and I Just do it as a hobby nowadays too. People do The same thing with determination. It it was só easy to be determined the world woundt have so many fat people and everyone would be sucessful.

>>3078530
>>tfw you know you'll never make it because it's physically impossible for you to stay focused for more than an hour

adderall

>>3078541
You are not determined, you got motivated by some steroid junkie for 5 minutes, then you failed to do something you can't do at this point and you had to cry about it on this imageboard. End yourself so I don't have to read these pathetic, useless threads.

>>3078544
been taking it for 10 years now and it only helps a little these days.

>>3078532
I actually draw fairly decent, could be Working with art and I probably have some lvl of aptitude for it as I Spend months without drawing and still improve more than the average artists that I come by. Even more than a lot of the hard working ones. Besides that I help the community whenever I can.

>>3078546
why aren't you banging a model on your yacht that you bought with your millions of dollars? Oh, you don't have any of those things? Pathetic. Guess you aren't "determined" either then. Kys.

>>3078520
>draw random shit without actual study for a month
>marginally improve
>waahhh it's not fair I don't have talent!
but please go ahead and tell how you spent years drawing 6 hours a day and still somehow be shit at it

>>3078564
>grinding for hours a day

I've yet to see proof that anyone actually does that.

>>3078563
>you have to be a millionaire in order to call yourself determined

I know there are serious brainlets on /ic/ but this takes the cake.

>>3078574
wow you sound like a real failure. :^)

Learning is an organic process and it takes years to even start to be somewhat relevant. Most people here didn't even start doing anything, so your opinion is worthless.

You are just a bunch of uneducated retards living in your bubble thinking that you hold any credibility in anything. Living such a sad, pathetic life leads to threads like this. I am enjoying the thought that I have everything that you are fighting for right now and that you will make the same threads 5 years later, as long as you don't hang yourselves beforehand.

>>3078572
anyone who does art as a living?

6 hours actually is short for a work day, I want that job

>>3078527
>honestly speaking very few people will actually need to be masters in order to succeed in whatever they want to use their art skills for.
Seriously? Unless you make porn or pander super hardcore in some other way, you need to be god tier to make it.

>>3078583
that's why all those shitty freemium mobile games have such god tier art right?

>>3078585
not many of those are successful though.

>>3078591
the people making them still get paid

source: it was my former job

>>3078580
The mind literally has chemical reserves for focus that run out faster for some people than they do for others. This among other things are why some people succeed and some don't. People who are successful know that they just got lucky but want people to think they worked hard.

>>3078593
not if the company keeps making shit.

>>3078520
>It's like telling everyone can be a professional basketball player.

The Professor is a short white guy who just practiced really hard forever. He's like the Rock Lee of basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vglS7j0c4To

>>3078520
Because it helps grow their following, a percentage of their fanbases are people that aspire to do what they do. So they tell a white lie about how anyone can do it. They might have a blind bias toward their own path, or straight up lying to sugarcoat it so it sounds more marketable. No ones going to tell you about their s/o paying the bills for them, or living like a mooch... nepotism or having a trust fund.

>>3078593
Wait, you say there's enough jobs out there for artists who are just OK to make a living?

I don't mean to be lazy, I want to get as skilled as possible, but there's a rope around my neck and it's getting tighter every year, and I don't see myself as anywhere near good enough to be hired.
I need to understand where you have to be to not feel so fucking anxious about ending up as a hobo. Art is the only career I can have.

Drawing is so easy. It's unfathomable that people can't be successful at it. You literally have to be mentally challanged to be bad at it. I feel a genuine sorrow that people struggle with drawing so much here on 4chan. It's like seeing a mentally handicaped kid trying to learn how to ride a bicycle without success.

>>3078608
Too obvious

>>3078641
Yeah, but to the infantile mind the path to drawing well isn't so obvious.

>>3078520
You can never be certain of anyone's talent or your own, in what kind of skill or subject matter it's in. Drawing alone includes so many skills that any person could find there talent in any aspect of it to some extent.

Therefore, it's not really of any use to mention if. If an artist or an aspiring one find talent in something, great. If not, it doesn't matter. There is just no way to be certain about it, nor is it going to be the maker or breaker of your success. It's an unknown variable that's not worth getting caught up on.

Whereas regardless of talent, what is shown to work time and again, is ardent practice, study, and perseverance. You can call those talents on their own but they are more like practices which anyone can do.

If you don't believe so then you are merely selling yourself short. A person can learn so many skills in their life through practice, why does art have to be any different?

>>3078520
>It's like telling everyone can be a professional basketball player.
No, it's like telling everyone they can learn how to play basketball if they have the basic physical ability and desire to do so. Stop making threads just to bitch in broken English.

>>3078605
Yeah just dig around and you'd be surprised how many companies there are that are willing to hire artists who aren't scott robertson level. Hell if you'd just opened your eyes it's pretty obvious there are probably a whole bunch of commercial products in your room right now with art bad enough you could have done it yourself.

Not that I'm saying it's easy, it's not, but easier than you think. Realize that your first job will not be as a senior artist at activision-blizzard, but likely at some no-name startup you've never even heard of. The first job is just the beginning.

>>3078551

post work

>>3078697
Can confirm, worked at my last job for 5 years doing animated training videos....I can't draw at all. However most clients and your boss are not artist so they don't even know, or even care. Just have to be willing to give in to their crazy and somewhat retarded demands. God, i remember a project manager asking a coworker who needed extra time to develop branding and color pallets if "branding and color was even important", and to just get it done.

But yeah, was at a no-name startup, and the pay for shit. Only left cause they started laying large amounts of people off due to money problems. Left before it hit me, didn't want to be suddenly laid off one day, and didn't want to be swamped with the work of 10 other people for the low pay I was already getting.

>>3078583
no, you need to be professional level

>>3078703
I' post mu work when I get home. I'm not talking out of my ass.
Lots of good posts here... I'll reply later on a Pc. And I know that talent dont limit you from getting paid to do art, I Just dont like how most artists lie about it with things like "there is no such a thing like talent".

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>>3078598

A blind bias is a good guess... But I think that deeply they know it's not for everybody to be as good as they are(the really good pros working at famous studios and such). This might be why artists tended to be more elitists before internet was a thing.

>>3078661

I agree with your post. Maybe I didn't made myself clear enough because it was a pain to type with an Ipad, but you're right. The thing that I don't like is that almost every artist have this tendency to deny that talent(aptitude) exist in any extent and that even the "drive" to understand yours mistakes and progress by yourself is a clear sign of that aptitude.

>>3078697

Yeah, I believe in that. I choose not to pursue art as a career anymore because I earn more with my actual field than probably will earn as an mid-tier artists, thus having to reach pro level to get a better paying job. That road is too long for me at that point.

>>3078703

Pic related are some doodles I did in an artist meeting in my city this week. I know I'm not in the upper middle tier of pros, but could probably land some low tier artist jobs. (and already have received such offers before)

(also sorry for the quality,I just took a photo with my phone)

>>3078520
Discipline >>>>>> Talent

If you can set a schedule, determine your goals, and work on becoming better with dedicated study and practice every day, there's nothing innate talent can offer you besides maybe a week's headstart.

>Comparing physical ability to a skill that is entirely based around practice and application
Nigga

>>3078864
>there's nothing innate talent can offer you besides maybe a week's headstart.

lol

You're really underestimating talent. Good luck to you, Marko Djudjervik.

>>3078520

Yeah. Better kill yourself, you will never achieve anything. You need talent to even flip burgers, fucking failure.

>>3078578
he's not failure, but truth God. You must accept truth god.

>>3078954
>You need talent to even flip burgers, fucking failure.
I feel like they would actually say this.

>>3078596
op btfo

>>3078520

yeah i think anyone could get gud at art if they really tried, but people who are naturally talented and start at a higher skill level are more likely to be disciplined enough to continue than the people who suck ass at first and lose the will to even try because of how much they suck.

it's like how people always see you draw and say "oh, i cant even draw a stick figure haha!!" yes you fucking can, and you could do what im doing if you actually had the willpower to learn.

>>3078520
>artists keep insisting you only need training and nothing more.

If someone tells you that, it's either:

They're trying to sell you training

or

They don't have any.

>>3078974
its true you know .... nearly everyone who works at mcdonalds can make a sandwich but to make 6 of them in under 40 seconds is a talent that not many have. only 2 people in my store can do that. i'm one of them.

>>3079296
This.
Art is a very competitive field. You can be a mid to good tier accountant and make a good living, but if you are mid to good tier in art, you're doomed to have financial issues. In this field you need to be among the best to make a decent living that pays off for all the effort you put into learning the craft. And to be among the best, talent is required. Discipline alone can only get you so far.

Also, the more you look into the art world, the more you realize it's a huge pyramid scheme. Every artist and their mothers have gumroads, schools, tutoring and whatnot. And it makes for a good portion of their income if not the biggest in some cases. It's like a lot of the income in this industry is from the people who want to get into it themselves. Pyramid scheme.

>>3079325
>a lot of the income in this industry is from the people who want to get into it themselves. Pyramid scheme.
I realized this when I stopped to look at Stephen Silver's subscribers. He's got like 28k... all these people wanna get a foot in the door and so they become his customers.

>>3078520
vid related:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k7jeQQdqPA

>>3078520
anyone can learn to draw, its just a technical thing like learning carpentry

>>3079403
Heads up, don't watch this video, it'll ruin life for you forever since the guy is trying to brain wash you.

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>>3079416
don't be a retard.

>>3079416
No really. How did that video "ruin your life?"

>>3079416
>brainwash
>with facts and logical reasoning
lmfao, video has been enlightening, even though I was already aware of the survivorship bias. The email thought experiment really put it into perspective.

But even disregarding all this, what person would ever claim what he achieved was anything but the result of his own efforts?

>>3079325
So you consider people like Sakimichan, Ilya, Genzoman, Wojtek, Shaddy, Maciej etc to be the best of the best with an unachievable natural gift?

the same reason people lie about looks not being important for relationships

>>3078520
Many confuse talent with hard work.They are people who don't understand the depth of commitment it takes to become good. It can be people who decided a month ago to pick up a pen and then compare themselves to people who have been having it as a hobby for years and to whom it's not work or practice at all but just fun.

When somebody here crying about "talent" then you can be pretty sure that 99% of the time they have never encountered real innate raw talent in art.


But there are many aspects of art. The most important one is communication. If you don't have anything interesting to communicate then even talent can't save you. Most here just do not have anything interesting to communicate.

>>3079426
Teaching people to focus on things that are out of their control and to give up at the first sign of struggle is terrible advice. Every single one of your favorite artists would not be an artist today if they had seen this video and taken its message to heart, because before they "made it" they too identified as being untalented and lightyears behind their favorite artists.

>>3079426
One thing that none of the art gurus absolutely never mention is that they had the opportunity to start out and get PAID. When you get paid for your work, it's so much easier to improve and get to a level where you're really good. Instead we're expected to be as skilled as seasoned professionals just to have the chance to get noticed. I've only seen Nathan Fowkes ever admit to this, all art fields are saturated as fuck and you won't have the opportunity to grow on the job. This is so crucial I don't understand why it's never talked about

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>>3078526
>>3078520
Anyone can be a professional but not everyone will do it. Your Willpower level is probably low if you still honestly believe in inherent talent.
The only reason why some people improve faster than others is that they're more obsessed than the fuccboi d/is/ks who think grinding Loomis will allow them to "make it." The people who are the best simply approach it as a way of life, rather than some bullshit boot camp.
It's all about the level obssession. Sure, any one can be passionate about creating content but not everyone can have the discipline to practice correctly and consistently. The people who have the obsession to draw constantly don't need to have someone tell them that they need to do disciplined practice a lot and not just doodle like Nosebro. If you're lazy and you have to have someone give you a little pep talk to draw every month then you will never develop the drive to draw for hours and hours the pros have. Some people are lazy, some people are hard working, it's all matter of attitude.
The way you're acting is much like the lazy bitch I know at college who complains to her nerdy guy friends. She's spends about only an hour of studying everyday and then wastes 3 hours on Tumblr, and she has the nerve to ask these guys who study math in ALMOST ALL of their spare time for FUN why she's not as good at math as them.... The funny thing is, one of these guys actually used to be WORSE than her in math in highschool but got after he quit his slacker streak and fell in love with math by a friend convincing it was cool, he autistically learned and researched that shit for his own enjoyment.
TL;DR The reason why some people will always be better than others not because of an inherent ability. It's their level of willpower to be disciplined and obsession. To become the best you cannot simply just practice, you have to dedicate your entire LIFE to the skill you want to master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t89RVPNnv4U

>>3079272

I agree. But as I said, in my opinion willpower/determination is another innate talent(that can be worked for the best if the person had good education), and of course people can learn to be determined at certain point. If everyone had willpower or determination, everyone would be top at their fields and fit, as everyone knows what it takes to succeed in anything, the problems is the drive to do the work.

>>3079296

Well... I've never seen a pro artist say its the other way and I probably listened to every famous artist in the illustration/concept art field that has an interview online. lol

>>3079403

I'll watch it, looks interesting.

>>3079325


Yeah. I've never focused too much in getting art related jobs because what appeared to me would be too low to spend all the time I would need to deliver good results. It probably was a mistake by my part because I could be better by now and with a steady flow of work(probably), but would be busting my ass working day and night, as I have a full time job in another field.

But as >>3079501 said, it probably makes a HUGE difference in motivation if you're getting paid to level up.


>>3079456

This looks exactly like the talks successful artists do. There is a LOT of artists that have nothing to communicate and still works at a professional level or are good salesperson and make a living of art.


>>3079502

We we'll have to agree in disagree. Talent is actually easy to spot with some artists that show their previous studies and how they "got there".

You actually can see this happening in forums or if you posted in Ca.org in the good old days. There were people really obsessed (not as Algen) who didn't get too far and people who did low number of works and still got good.

>>3079622
It sounds more like it is just you trying to force an idea through despite what the people you consider talented tells you.

This isn't a video game where you just level up. There's a lot of factors that play a part in how well you improve. Environment, motivation, diet, personality, feedback, inspiration, etc. You can't compare your own progress with others because there are too many unknown variables.

But if you are making excuses and crying about it then it sounds like you have given up. If so then just quit with some dignity. It's not like anybody owe you anything.

>>3079403

Watched it now. It has everything to do with this thread I think. Never had heard before of survivorship bias, really interesting.


>>3079644

I'm not crying. I just thought this is a valid and interesting discussion and a bunch of other people here agree with me to some extent. People are free to believe in what they want(or need).

Also, sometimes it is like a videogame. You realize some mistake and suddenly your art progress a lot from this epiphany. I think everyone who draw felt that at least once.

>>3078520

when one of the best students in my class copied my painting, I knew there was a lot more to "talent" than just being able to render well.

some are more imaginative than others. While others a photocopiers. Focus on what you do best and expand. Tex Averys advice.

>>3078526
>talent isn't real because I use another word to describe the exact same thing
Literally the lamest, most transparent rhetorical sleight of hand ever.>>3078527

>>3079622
>and people who did low number of works and still got good.

You can't tell how much an artist worked based on what they posted on ca.org. That's just stupid.

>>3078583
Then how come like 90% of all professionals are hacks according to /ic/?

>>3078520
You're wrong though, there's a learning curve to everything and people with talent get a head start but if they rely on it without putting their nose to the grindstone they'll never make progress and be surpassed quickly by others. I've seen this shit so often in my field, I study physics and math and there are some talented people but they don't get better, people bitch about not being able to do math or science and so don't try. Same thing with art, no one is innately able to do everything and those with talent don't compare to people who have worked their asses off fervently for years.

>>3078530
just take breaks, draw for half an hour take a 5-10 minute break, repeat

>>3078527
/thread

>>3078527
>Anyone can "git gud"
>unless you have actual mental deficiencies

before anyone else overrates your post, I'd just like to point out how you've contradicted yourself here, and that "mental deficiencies" range pretty widely these days.

>>3079682
the fuck are you even going on about, queer?

>>3079873
that's a pretty autistic post tbqh.

>>3078596
He's not in the NBA what a wonderful poetic analogy. A born innate disadvantage keeps him from competing in the top 1 percentile.

>>3079688

You being biased. There were a lot of artists with good online presence and there still are in some random art forums. We just remember and know the 1% that got good eventually. Even more in CA.org days with the low competition at the time.

>>3079925
THIS

Anybody who believes they can't make "it" because they lack talent should just quit already.

Step away from the screen and pack all your drawing tools into a box and then come back to the screen and delete your drawing software. Like a ritual that symbolizes your decision.

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>>3079925
but..talent isn't..anyone can...im gonna..

>>3079991
see >>3079990

>>3079990
you're a deluded cunt.

>>3080005
Do it faggot. Spare /ic/ your grief.

>>3080007
You just want me to leave because you have no argument.

>>3080014
>can't read
I want to to stop drawing since you have already decided that you can't make it you stupid anon. Then you can tell anybody else who feel the same as you to follow your example. Then threads like these will be short lived. Better for you, better for /ic/.

>>3080017
kill yourself, best for /ic/

>>3080018
So you just admitted that you are knowingly wasting your life? That sounds like a definition of a loser.

>>3079990
Am I excused for having actually tried my best for years? Or was I just secretly being "lazy" all along

>>3080025
>Am I excused for having actually tried my best for years? Or was I just secretly being "lazy" all along

I don't care about excuses anon. Nobody owe you anything and you are not entitled to succeed just for effort. If you yourself believe that you lack something fundamental that will prevent you from ever reaching your goal in art, something you have tried to reach for years, would it then not be better for you to seek out something where you can succeed? Maybe that will even lead to a steady income.

>>3080029
My only basis for quitting is just the steady income part. I'm sure I lack talent or whatever it is, because I improve very slowly. I'm also certain at this point that I won't make money off my art anytime soon, and it's maybe time to take a step back and treat it as a hobby.

>>3080017
You know what would really be great for /ic/? it would be great if people weren't so fucking deluded here. It would be great if people stopped giving bad advice, stopped telling people to draw 10 hours a day and stopped taking the very instances of success as the fucking norm.

Eat a fucking shotgun.

>>3080037
*very rare instances

>>3080037
>I'm so entitled

The irony of you calling others deluded. Given the context I even wonder if you know the meaning of the word.

>>3080041
>knowing you prolly won't succeed is entitled

still not seeing an argument.

>>3080043
This place isn't your cheerleading squad, you twat. It's an anonymous forum with everything that follows. It's not other peoples fault that you feel you have to take each post equally serious and personal.

If you "lack talent" then you just lack concentration and self discipline
You think you'll never get better than what you are now ? That just mean you don't deserve to be better
Treat yourself like a piece of trash and you'll be a piece of trash, now fuck off to
>>>/adv/
>>>/trash/

>>3080048
What a fucking legend. You said I didn't know what entitled meant when YOU clearly fucking didn't, can't argue that "talent" or whatever you want to call it isn't real and now you're acting like the only way you can talk about talent is if you're complaining that you don't have any. Obviously just to shut everyone up who wants to talk about it.

typical /ic/ "everybody can be good!" fag everybody.

>>3080051
post work

What a cancerous thread
Go draw instead of bullshitting on each other you stupid ass faggots. Why would you even want to waste your time arguing over this?

>>3080056
take your own advice retard

>>3080054
Somebody in another thread suggested that intelligence and talent are the same. If so then you surely are talentless.

You are sperging out over being told to quit something if you don't think you'll succeed. It has been a long time since I've met somebody so genuinely stupid as you.

>>3080059
Already drew fag, taking a break. At least I'm not wasting my time arguing about meanings of words.

>>3080064
you have no idea if people are posting in between breaks either you self righteous moron. kill yourself

>>3080068
True, but I'm not typing walls of text about things that don't matter.

Either way I'm out of this thread before you'll attempt to bait a response again. Go draw, all of you. Just make some fucking lines on paper.

>>3080062
Because they didn't want me talking about talent. You can't even bring it up here for the sake of natural human fucking interest without someone being defensive.

>>3080074
>retard gets caught in his own corner
>i-i'm out
pathetic AND stupid.

>>3080076
Why bring it up at all? People don't give a shit if you think some can't make it. People who cares about that shit usually quit pretty early anyway. Why do people like you even draw at all? To impress people with your proof of talent? Are you 12? (There's an age limit on /ic/ btw)

>>3080086
because people here have unrealistic expectations that they base off of the success of the very few. Who's really 12 here?

>>3080095
btfo

>>3080095
So you are mad that some here admire better artist and have decided in advance that they can't reach that stage... Why? Because they post on /ic/?

>>3079452
Raise the bar a little higher friend. The answer is yes. These guys are fan artists compared to the legends that defined the genres they work in.

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>>3080106
No. What frustrates me - just like OP is that pros won't even tough this topic because it might make them unpopular. If we didn't bring it up here nobody else would, and understanding what you might actually have aptitude for might lead you in a career direction that suits you better.

It's become just way too stressful for me. I might even become good but if I keep looking at my career as potentially living in my car I'm gonna go nuts. I'm already taking brain meds and this whole art bullshit is only making things worse... anyone here has been through that? Can I just take a few months off and start again once the stress has worn out a bit?

>>3080125
Or you could be wrong and hard work plays a lot bigger part than you imagine. I don't know what you think talent is but if it's there then I don't think i shows in art if you don't posses the tools to express your ideas, tools that are build up from a lot of observation, brush techniques, technical know-how and experience founded in experimentation.

It sounds to me like you are just making up excuses to convince yourself. And then to feel even better you try to sell your idea onto others.

You should probably ask yourself why you draw and if it is something that fills you with fun and enjoyment. It's not suppose to be a grind. Very few have the mental stamina to grind that much.

>>3080125

Thank you. People here are always so defensive when you state the obvious that MOST of us are "not gonna make it". We are just discussing possible reasons why and the fact successful people never bough those arguments up. Also now that I know that survivor bias exists it can really backup my point.

That merc meme with that text already existed or you created it now? lol

>>3080130
>Can I just take a few months off and start again once the stress has worn out a bit?

You can. I did it several times trough my life. Just don't be like me later on regretting all the wasted time. Now I don't see it as wasted time anymore simple because I accepted the fact I just wasn't in a healthy mind state to force myself to draw, it wasn't fun in those specific moments in my life, so I got away from it.
Funny part is that every time I came back to drawing, as soon as the rust wearied off I was better than before because I would immerse myself in art related stuff to a point that I needed to draw and get all the inspiration out of my head.

I don't think you'll ever "start again" with drawing. It's like riding a bicycle in that aspect. You'll get from were you stopped in a short time even without drawing for months, probably even years.

>>3080138

Dude, you can even see this mentality in some mid tier artists like Sycra. I don't know what passes trough hes head and if he thinks he can achieve top studios pro level in the future or if he just accepted the fact he probably will live as a mid tier artist forever(witch is not bad if you realize that). Either way he passes forward that thinking that talent don't exist and everyone with effort can make it, even if he didn't. lol

Sycra is grinding it for years and is not even near Sinix level, for example. And you can actually see how much work Sinix has done, he showed and posted all his studies and sketchbooks, it's not much. He posted almost every painting he did in life, it's not much. Hes just talented and Sycra is not. Simple as that.

You can clearly see Sycra will never be at Dave Rapozas level. Dan Warren actually trained with the same schedules and in the same way as Dave did and he is years behind Dave in technical skill.


This is not hard to spot, just look at all the evidence and stop listening to what the "winners" said they did right. You're just being delusional if you think talent don't matter or it "matter just in the beginning" as a lot of artists state when they acknowledge the fact that talent is real.

>>3080151
>state the obvious that MOST of us are "not gonna make it"

Stop making bs up. People are talking about if it would be possible for those people to make it. There are many reasons as to why few make it that have nothing to do with talent or the lack of it.

>I accepted the fact I just wasn't in a healthy mind state to force myself to draw, it wasn't fun in those specific moments in my life, so I got away from i

That doesn't sound like something most could use as a reference. It doesn't sound like making it was even on your mind.

>>3080164
>And you can actually see how much work Sinix has done, he showed and posted all his studies and sketchbooks, it's not much. He posted almost every painting he did in life, it's not much.

It wouldn't be the first time an artist tries to fake talent for attention. But then again I I don't know how much "not much" is. Could be a lot still.


There's one thing you are missing though. Time does not equal progress. There are so many factors that play in study conditions and sources. Maybe one had good teachers and a loving family while the other is insecure and stuck with poor guidance in self studies.

Maybe Sycra is the one with talent and unable to learn from others because he's confused or arrogant (just making up stuff. I am not that familiar with any of them) while Sinix did all the basics with highly paid teachers.

It's hard to define talent because we can't isolate it. It comes back to genetics vs environment.

Holy shit, you guys are depressing. Chill the fuck, this is a board about art. Talk about art instead of whether or not any of us are gonna make it.

>>3080168
>That doesn't sound like something most could use as a reference. It doesn't sound like making it was even on your mind.

It was for a big chunk of my early 20's. I even dropped uni believing I could grind trough it and make it, even without having any idea how grinding would translate to getting paid, etc.
Even so... I could be working with art, as I already said it, I'm a fast learner. The thing is that I always had looong breaks between periods of drawing obsessively, but if I take my total drawing time it's probably less than my time playing Dota 2.

The thing is that at some point I understood that I liked drawing, but not that consecutively. I also realized that I was making more money in my mid 20's than I would be making at my art level at that time and to work part time and draw all night when I got home would burn me off, as it did time and time again. So I brushed off that idea as I would never have the financial support to quit my job and just draw to get on a payment level I already was in my mid 20's.

>>3080191

Actually Sinix had a long break without doin any art because of depression, anxiety, etc. I think Sycra had some similar problems too, but I'm not sure.

I know time does not equal progress. This is part of the argument, you see. Time does not equal progress because talent plays a huge part in it too, plus all the things you mentioned in a smaller scale.

>>3080197
But that's an attitude problem, not a lack of talent problem. We got novelist who write bestsellers while having jobs and raising newborns. Comic book artists who just can't help themselves and start publishing even though they still suck and then become a success.


The truth sounds more like that to you it just wasn't as interesting as video games and other distractions.

>>3080201
Now you are just jumping big leaps to likely false conclusions.

>>3078520

If talent was even real, then the better the artwork, the easier it would have been to make.

But you're losers looking for excuses, so I'm wasting my time.

Lmao. I just discovered you are probably not even the right personality type to do art. Ahahaha!

And you need eidetic memory too!

>>3080212

Oh, but I didn't said the reason for me to drop out of art as a career was because of talent. It was because of bad decisions, poor support and lack of motivation.
What I'm saying that I saw plenty of examples trough my life of people who were hard works and studied way more than I did and didn't evolve nearly as much. I know this can have several reasons, but the most obvious one is that I simply learn faster than most.

Others said plenty of others examples on the same subject.

Personally the most obvious example I have of this was when I did an one-year drawing fundamentals course in an art school. I never did any assignment and was just drawing when in class(6 hours a week) and even so I progressed more than anyone in my class.


>>3080216

I know this is highly biased on my vision and my experiences, but summing it with life experience, watching and accompanying a bunch of artists since almost ten years ago and learning about things like survivor bias and all the talk the successful people tend to give(which almost tend to be all the same motivation speech), I came to the conclusion presented in this thread.

>>3078524
People who make it are normies in the truest sense.

>>3080233
alright. You got your perspective and anecdotes. But if you think talent is real, that you lack it and making it is important for you then the solution for you should be simple.

But don't worry about other people. You have no way of actually knowing what they have in their baggage and art tends to attract people who want attention as a special snow flake or likes to sell themselves. Somebody earlier wrote that he thinks artists wouldn't brag about having talent. Nothing is further from the truth in many cases. The idea of talent sells to normal people. While an artist may play humble it's also rare to find one who would go out of his/her way to dispel the idea that they have talent. They'll just play ignorant. If everybody can potentially do it then it becomes less valuable/special in the eyes of those who provide the income.

>>3078520
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocDli45faiw

>>3080082
rip. he will be remembered.

>>3080259

Nice video, very inspirational.

>>3078520
Totally agree, It´s better to know your limitations and be happy with that than pursue some illusory levels of talent.

>>3080245
>Somebody earlier wrote that he thinks artists wouldn't brag about having talent. Nothing is further from the truth in many cases. The idea of talent sells to normal people.

While true for a general audience. Someone selling online education, tutorials and going for the Patreon, DA, tumblr crowd, a fanbase comprised almost entirely of aspiring artists... It behooves them to sell them on "you can do this too!" it's thee pillar for selling self help/life coaching, education.

>>3082338

Yeah, I've seen artists going "out of their way" to respond to people who said they where talented in Facebook comments, making big blocks of texts about "I'm a hard worker, not talented" and such...
As I said in the start of this thread, in all of these years I never saw an professional artist admit that innate talent exist apart from when they refer to KJG, and I believe KJG is an exclusive case in the mind of pro's because it's an unattainable level even for the talented ones.

>>3082361
That's probably because they genuinely do not think they are talented. Maybe people like you are just really exceptionally bad and everyone else is normal. They just look talented to you because of how bad you are.

>>3080151
>You can. I did it several times trough my life. Just don't be like me later on regretting all the wasted time. Now I don't see it as wasted time anymore simple because I accepted the fact I just wasn't in a healthy mind state to force myself to draw, it wasn't fun in those specific moments in my life, so I got away from it.
>Funny part is that every time I came back to drawing, as soon as the rust wearied off I was better than before because I would immerse myself in art related stuff to a point that I needed to draw and get all the inspiration out of my head.
And what point are you at right now? Have you made a career out of it? I'm getting more and more convinced that only the people who are not only talented, but VERY motivated end up making a living off of it. I have so much to catch up in terms of skill and I progress so slowly, but the worst part for me is that I've stopped believing I will ever make it. It seems like only a tiny % get there and everyone else is hopelessly flocking near them to buy tutorials and other meaningless pieces of advice but it will never happen, only the prodigies break through.

I really feel depressed and since I've got no other prospect in life than maybe flipping burgers I feel like a big loser. I've wasted all these years practicing hard and sweating over art just to get burned out in the end and calling it quits because I clearly don't have the stuff.

>>3082337
Why? The untalented artist who works really hard in pursuit of "illusory levels of talent" will always surpass the equally untalented artist who doesn't work hard and stays in his stagnating comfort zone.

>>3082371

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not working with art although every now and then I have the opportunity to do some paid work, but I always refuse.
I just willingly accepted that I'll probably never make a career in art because I get burnt very often...

And, like you're realizing, I came to that same conclusion some years ago that you have to be talented AND very motivated to work in this industry or else you'll struggle or just work too much for the same gains every 8-5 job offers you.

>>3082374

Well, what you said is a common phrase that pro artists always parrot:"hard work beats talent 100% of time", but I'm yet to see this happen. The people who really excels are both hard works and talented or just really good salesman.

>>3082367

I agree that most probably don't believe they're talented, but that is explained by survivor bias. Also, I'm not exceptionally bad... I posted my work in this thread >>3078795
(It's just a sketchbook random page, but I think it serves as parameter)

>>3082385
>Well, what you said is a common phrase that pro artists always parrot:"hard work beats talent 100% of time", but I'm yet to see this happen.

Where did I say hard work beats talent? I said hard work beats no work at all. If 2 people are equally untalented, the one who will make an effort will easily beat the one who doesn't, that's just a fact.

>>3082392
Ah, sorry then, you're right. But I think what >>3082337 was trying to convey is that you're not helping yourself by being deluded on your own capacity.

>>3082374
Yeah, keep telling that to yourself.

>>3082392
Not the anon you're replying to but why is this even a question? Of course the person who works will do better. The point though is that if you're not talented it takes unrealistic amounts of work and you'll still not get where the talented person will be. Only talented AND very determined people make it, and the latter part is even harder to attain than talent. Having a supportive family, a decent economic situation, not being mentally ill with depression... all this shit is crucial. If you're not talented you might get to >>3078795 's point (I'm pretty much there myself) with lots of hard work. Is that enough to get a steady job? Nope. You need to be exceptionally good to make ends meet.

So what's the point? Not to mention f you get depressed it becomes exponentially harder to actually sit down and draw (after 4 years of drawing several hours a day I can barely pick up a pencil now 'cause of depression...) maybe it's my own depression speaking and I hope that getting stronger drugs will fix my motivation but deep in my heart I know that I'm simply discovering the truth, that I won't make it because I don't have talent.

These threads would be better if they were about the psychology of human learning behaviour and how it can be used to ones advantage (or disadvantage), rather than people arguing different definitions of talent and talking passed each other based on how they understand or misunderstand, how other people are using the word.

>according to my worldview, you're not going to make it, guys!
>well according to mine, we're all going to make it!
>no you can't do it!
>yes you can!
>no you can't!
Now I'm remembering that old adidas commercial.

>>3082398
The point is you don't need to be in any way specifically talented to make it as artist. As proven by the countless of pros who are considered to be hacks by /ic/ and who are on a far lower skill level than the truly talented elite guys.

To explain it in terms that even a 5 year old could understand: You are at -10 talent. 99% of people are at 0 talent, KJG, Ruanjia, Mullins etc are at +10 talent. You being at -10 talent will indeed never make it, but that is not because you are not talented, it's because you are exceptionally untalented. Anyone else who has no talent but isn't exceptionally untalented either does not share your struggle and that happens to be the vast majority of people.

This post must be leaved to people that think on being an artist as a career, no for those that draw only as a hobby, like me.

Btw, I just draw cartoonish waifu shit ( yeah, ill kill myself later ), and after 2 year of doing it my level improvement it´s near 0%.

>>3082400
>As proven by the countless of pros who are considered to be hacks by /ic/ and who are on a far lower skill level than the truly talented elite guys.
But the point of those people making it isn't their art
They made it because
1) They are "personalities" - do you think PewDiePie is appreciated because he's great at videogames? He's a personality who appeals to his audience
2) They sell porn which lowers the standards dramatically.

Your definition of negative talent is weird. I definitely draw better than the average person, it's simply that what I do will never be good enough and it will take me at least 3-5 more years to get to the point where I'm good enough, and that's something I can't afford to do without ending up killing myself.

>>3082396
How can you seriously believe anything else? Of course the one who works hard will surpass the one who doesn't if everything else is equal. How is that even a question?

>>3082404
>But the point of those people making it isn't their art

And that's yet another reason why you defeatist losers need to stop bitching about talent so much. Art is just as much about personality, marketing yourself and having something to say as it is about skill. There are countless of professional artists making a living with their work who shouldn't be able to according to people like you.

>>3082407
I was 100% into "I'm gonna make it! I just gotta keep working hard!" for 4 years. Four years. I just can't keep saying this to myself anymore... things have stayed incredibly difficult, results have stayed more or less the same. There's motivation and there's plain delusion... I don't want to fall into the latter.

>>3082398

OP here, yeah, thanks for making my point clearer... I'm probably struggling to get understood because of my poor english. lol

I also would like to point that I believe to have some level of talent and that's one of the reasons I can "smell the lie", because as I stated before I'm a lazy ass who drew less ours in the last couple years than I played Skyrim and still got better than a lot of classmates and colleagues who worked their asses off drawing constantly on a daily basis. You stated that yourself by saying we're on the same level, but I didn't 4 years of drawing several hours a day. (I'm not trying to diminish your hard work in anyway, btw! Please don't take that as a offense)

If we could join forces like in DBZ we would probably make it, but we can't... So I took a different career path in life. hehe

>>3082409
Can you show examples of your skill level? I'm genuinly curious.

>>3078520
Sports are subject to objective realities. How tall, how fast, how skilled someone is and how intelligently you are play is absolutely crucial to the game. If you do not excel in any way, it is almost impossible to compete. However, there are numerous examples of players who work very hard to outmatch even talent. Art is something else entirely. Art is SUBJECTIVE. You're art is the product of your eyes and ears and what makes your imagination. It is UNIQUE to your perspective. The purpose of art is too compel people emotionally. Whether it is of a high level of adroitness or requires low levels, the ultimate goal is to move people. It doesn't matter how you do so. Many like this anon over here >>3078524 ENJOY art, they are not IN LOVE with art. Love is unconditional it does not EVER end. Through thick and thin it perseveres. If you are talking about commercial success, that has no merit on the character of an artist. A true artist just LOVES to work. No matter what. Some die broke and poor and miserable, only to be glorified long after they've left this place. What most people lack completely is PASSION, the fire that never stops BURNING. That's the indicator of promise. The man who digs through poo for years and YEARS till he finds gold. And if he doesn't yet, he NEVER stops. Because for him, there is no other way. Many "artists" here are infatuated, that's the extent of it. Similar to a high school crush. ARTISTS are WORKING as we speak, EXPERIENCING so they can inform their work and stretch their imagination. Half of these people can't even sustain and inspire themselves, how in the HELL are they going to inspires others? Get to work. Enjoy. Suffer. Create. If that does not sound ideal for you, it's not your passion. Move on.

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>>3082411

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>>3082411
>>3082417

Why does it even matter.
If you have talent , good for you, keep working.
If you don't, that sucks, work harder.

>>3082413
I think you're too romantic and not practical or accurate in your idea of what is art. You can't define how much someone loves art and this idea that separates art from commercial work is bullshit, art was almost always commercial and not at all that romantic or subjective.

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>>3082418
>>3082411

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>>3082422
>>3082411

>>3082420
We're just debating ideas, this is the place for it. Stop trying to sabotage the discussion just because you don't like the subject.

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>>3082423
>>3082411
There you go. I don't even care about getting recognized anymore.

>>3082426
Don't be that hard on yourself. Even realizing you don't have what it needs to be an senior artist in a big company you can still live from art with hard work. Just have in mind you can work less(with something you don't love as much or don't even like) and be paid almost the same as a mid-level artist.

>>3082426
>>3082423
>>3082422
>>3082418
>>3082417

I don't see any hard work there, just a bunch of unfinished sketches and a study. Have you ever actually finished something to the best of your ability?

>>3082430
I just posted what I had at hand that I had not put online and wasn't too old. I used to finish more stuff but these days I can just sketch something. Either way that's my skill level.

>>3082428
I'm getting a real job and keep art on the side if I manage, I'm tired of dreaming desu. And I never had more than 100 followers on social media in all these years, people don't seem too keen on what I do in the first place.

>>3082421
>art was always commercial
What kind of drugs are you on my friend? Up until a certain era, the highest forms of art was religious, for divine inspiration. Art IS ROMANTIC. Not modern, divorce the woman you said you'd stay with forever, love, it is the I will take a bullet for you LOVE. I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU LOVE. You don't have passion. You sound like you have low self esteem as well. I'll say a prayer for you. I hope God ignites the fire in you to achieve what he wants to be. A man fully alive! Here for you, it might help:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jan/01/arts.music

God Bless.

>>3082413
So being talented in sports means being physically and mentally skilled while being talented in art means having passion for it, alright.

>>3082443
>Up until a certain era, the highest forms of art was religious, for divine inspiration.
Debatable to false, the church was just the biggest patron. Like Disney would be the largest patron today. Very unlikely that artists were zealots, more common they secret heathens trying to sneak stuff past the censors. Art as pure self expression... that came with modernity, is well a modern invention.

>>3082439
you're at a decent skill level. However, your skill is the second most important thing. More than an artist you have to be an entrepreneur. to reach finacial success in art.

Also followers are nice but clients are better. Find out what people are willing to pay you for.

>>3082443
>What kind of drugs are you on my friend? Up until a certain era, the highest forms of art was religious, for divine inspiration. Art IS ROMANTIC

You're wrong, you know that right? Looks like you're just posing as a character and don't truly believe what you say.

>>3082405
The untalented one will hit a LOWER wall and it takes them longer to get there. The talented person will hit a HIGHER wall faster. With little effort someone with aptitude (talent whatever the fuck) can achieve better results in less time.

>>3082470

I'm not the one you're replying to, but this is what I said here >>3082410 and I was under the impression you don't agree with that.

>>3082463
>More than an artist you have to be an entrepreneur.
Yeah and I'm a much worse entrepreneur than I am an artist. Either way I think I made enough of a spectacle so far, I should quit ranting.

All I can hope at this point is that I this mindset is transitory and I'll go back to trying and improving soon enough.

>>3082477

It is, trust me anon.

>>3082467
>"you're wrong"
The strength of your argument seems to be the strength of your will my friend. Some soul searching will you some good.

>>3082483

I won't do research for you about a very common know fact.

>>3082489
So common you can't construct an argument or provide a citation eh? Heh.

>>3078520
I don't care about making it in the art industry. I'm in the stem field.

I just want to get good enough to make comics and doodle my OC's in real life situations that I've been in.

>>3082561

That's fine. I'm in STEM too. :) (OP here)

>>3082446
no you dumbshit, art is still technical skill and thought, but there is no standard you have to be held to, no style you have to adhere too, no criteria other than emotionally engaging people and imparting some kind of feeling from your work you wimp

>>3080025

>tried my best for years

You didn't.

Drawing is pure learned skill. If you can't learn, you're stupid. Prove me wrong.

What's your excuse? Can't hold a fucking pen? Poor motor skills? Attention deficit disorder? Lack of talent? Or which meme? Or you're just a retard that really thought doing mindless shit for 10 hours a day would make you good?

>>3082706
Crippling depression I guess

>>3082764
this site should change its name to boo hoo

>>3082765
You wanted to know so badly, there you go. I think it's an awful reason too but it's the truth.

>>3082574
Oh really? What's your major? Chem E here :D

>>3079502
>Your Willpower level is probably low if you still honestly believe in inherent talent
And your talent level is non-existent if you don't.

>>3079416
You are a complete and utter idiot, shut up and fuck off.

>>3080224
>If talent was even real, then the better the artwork, the easier it would have been to make.

This is how reddit-spacers actually think, what a failure of a human being. The thing is brainlet, it is easier for people with more talent, we (and I'm not even going into it as it's pointless) have worked far harder but without talent effort is meaningless beyond enjoyment of a thing for its own sake. Only someone who KNOWS they're devoid of talent and thinks wrongly that they can make it anyway believes it's just a meme. Talent is the one irreplaceable element that gives a thing life, and if you don't have it there's no mistaking it. You, and I mean you personally, will never, ever make it because you will never impart that spark to anything you try and make.

>>3082574
>>3082784
Get a room then kill yourselves

>>3082771
I wasn't the original guy you were talking too sorry. That was rude. God Bless.

>>3082884
>no argument
>no citation
Keep crying frodo
>>3082917
Why do fate sulkers like you come here and discuss about talent when you "know" it's be all, end all?. Stfu and do your work. You're more of a waste of space than all of reddit tenfold. Eat dirt, that seems to be your appetite.

>>3079403
well time to give up

>>3083094
If you give up, you lose. If you don't, you still got a chance.

Yea youre right op. Stop trying. All of you stop trying. Get out of my way. Let the cream rise bitches

>>3082884
That makes no sense, you yourself admit that all the talented people usually say it's all hard work and that this really frustrates you. It's pretty clear that the more you obsess over talent, the worse of an artist you are.

>>3082917
What does "making it" entail for you? There are plenty of professional artists out there who I personally wouldn't deem particularly talented. Do you actually believe artists like Sakimichan or Ilya give their work a "spark" that is the result of innate talent? What about someone like say Algenpfleger? Clearly he is an example of someone who was very talented in grasping technical concepts, but does his work to you look like it has a magically "spark"? In that case, I think the one thing holding you back so much isn't necessarily a lack of talent but god-awful taste

>>3083426
Moving goal posts.

If talent isnt a thing why im putting 7 fucking hours of effort every day in draw a box for a 2 weeks and my boxes still shit, cant even do the first lesson and my friend who bearly puts 4 managed to complete it in a week, we started at the same time, talent is a thing, every body go home

>>3083432
You're an absolutely dim witted, dense, exhausting waste of space. Please quit all together. This is NOT your vocation. Good travels.

>>3083432
even art requires critical thought to advance fast

The word 'talent' is putting such a mystical spin on it, but it's no secret that some people are smarter and learn things faster than others. Since art is an intellectual pursuit, of course it would show there.

>>3083430
Not really. People like you always go on and on lamenting about talent this, talent that, yet you never want to discuss who you consider to be talented and what it means for those who you don't consider to be. Either every single successful professional artist is talented in your eyes, or you are overestimating how important talent really is in "making it".

>>3083457
art isn't an intellectual pursuit

>>3083462
It's almost entirely physics and mathematics.

>>3083467
i think what he means is its a creative pursuit. Anything can be reduced to maths and phhysics, but its not like my knowledge of maxwells equations will make me a renaissance painter. yes you have to know about how light casts for art, but you can just copy what you know from elsewhere or whats in front of you, art doesnt require an understanding of anything really.

yes geometry makes you a better painter but thats not the basis of art, its just a tool for better approximations

>>3083471
Programming is also a "creative" pursuit. You use it to create something. That's meaning of creativity.

In both programming, and art, you use your intellect to create something. Just because you're not using mathematical equations for everything doesn't mean it's not intellectual.

Different people learning to "copy" things at different rates, it all comes all down to intelligence, how fast you can absorb the information in front of you.

>>3083475
programming is a logical pursuit, youre transforming a set of planned instructions into a method a computer can interperet. Yes this requires "creativity" but its a non flexible medium with strict definitions.

Of course creativity and logic overlap but to call art logical is flawed since theres nothing left to it, its entirely self study. I never said its not "intellectual" i said its not purely physics and math" unless youre talking from the viewpoint that everything is a subset of maths (with physics being applied maths)

>>3083482
Programming is actually an extremely flexible medium. To any problem there is usually multiple solutions, and often one is not clearly more effective than the others. Not to mention there are thousands of different programming languages, and you can even invent new ones.

Programming being logical does not preclude it from being creative. These concepts are not mutually exclusive. In fact, logic helps with art too, making art a logical pursuit. A big part of learning by studying reference is inferring general rules from what you see and applying it to other things. You'll be using logical thinking and deduction all the time if you try to draw using formal perspective (which is all geometry).

Nobody said art is "purely" physics and math. I think I did say it's "almost entirely" physics and math, which is a similar statement but not the same. Are you confusing something here?

>>3083501
>Programming is actually an extremely flexible medium.
no its defined by the language
>To any problem there is usually multiple solutions, and often one is not clearly more effective than the others
because the compiler converts different solutions into the same binary form. If the function is defined to have different properties then there will often be slight speed aadvantages
>Not to mention there are thousands of different programming languages, and you can even invent new ones.
with all the same goal, and a moot point at that

>
Programming being logical does not preclude it from being creative. These concepts are not mutually exclusive..
which is why they teach you a "creative" approach in almost every scientific undergraduate
>In fact, logic helps with art too, making art a logical pursuit. A big part of learning by studying reference is inferring general rules from what you see and applying it to other things. You'll be using logical thinking and deduction all the time if you try to draw using formal perspective (which is all geometry).
im sure logical approaches are taught in art degrees. youre not taught any math or physics beyond a rudimentary level, and it isnt the foundation of the field

>Nobody said art is "purely" physics and math
i did
> I think I did say it's "almost entirely" physics and math, which is a similar statement but not the same. Are you confusing something here?
you mean, you did. confusing what? theyre extremly similar, and yet i didnt say it was purely and exactly the same

>>3083517
>no its defined by the language
Of which there are thousands of different ones, not including the ones you can invent yourself

>because the compiler converts different solutions into the same binary form. If the function is defined to have different properties then there will often be slight speed aadvantages
You're giving too much credit to the optimizing ability of an automatic compiler. They most definitely do not convert all possible different solutions to the same one.

>with all the same goal, and a moot point at that
It is not a moot point just because you can't refute it. What same goal? Just like in art, the goal of programming is whatever you make it.

>you mean, you did. confusing what? theyre extremly similar, and yet i didnt say it was purely and exactly the same
Purely = 100%. Almost entirely = Vague expression, anything from 50% - 99.9999...%

They are not the same. That's really the end of the argument. Did you have a point?

>>3083524
>Of which there are thousands of different ones, not including the ones you can invent yourself
and? Theyre all a set of rules basically, and they all do the same thing; make it simpler for humans to interact with a computer (from a non end users perspective). theyre all created as either a logical step to succeed others limitations or as a joke (see that cat language, java, etc).

>You're giving too much credit to the optimizing ability of an automatic compiler. They most definitely do not convert all possible different solutions to the same one.
when theyre made properly they will. not all solutions if a certain function is meant to do other stuff too.

>It is not a moot point just because you can't refute it. What same goal? Just like in art, the goal of programming is whatever you make it.
acting as a medium to the programmer. the goal of programming is exclusivly to convert instructions and already created aand planned ideas to a form a computer can interperate.


>you mean, you did. confusing what? theyre extremly similar, and yet i didnt say it was purely and exactly the same
>Purely = 100%. Almost entirely = Vague expression, anything from 50% - 99.9999...%

>They are not the same. That's really the end of the argument. Did you have a point?

my point is i never claimed those two things to be thhe same arguement, you were the one to associate them with each other. The fact you try to justify art as a logical activity by calling programming a creative activity is laughable at best, and with each instance of the arguement you refute less and less points

In art the objective is subjective. Your aim is to feel. You have to fix your own juice and more and exhaust your capacity. The complexity of the work on its own is meaningless and is only a means to an end.

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>>3083533
>Your aim is to feel.

>>3083533
exactly, theres no formalised process for art, not can there be unless the shift is away from art and focused on inducing emotion

To ALL the people saying that who believe in talent is bad: post tour work. O bet it's beginner tier.

>>3083570
>talent is bad
do you mean not a thing? I think talent can be learned and is the name given for appliication of skill.

>>3078520
I've been inclined to believe talent more and more as well.

Some people ARE just too dumb to improve

>>3078520
What is talent in art?

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>>3083619
I have no idea how people still deny that talent exists when there's KJG.

>>3083624
if only he applied the skill of the building to the people

>>3083589
I mean the ones saying who believe in talent are bad artista.

>>3083624
If an anonymous poster had posted that here on /ic/ it would had been torn apart with comments about lack of proper anatomy, poor sense of proportions and vanishing points comments.

>>3083643
It really isnt that amazing. I dont get it?

>>3083656
then why use it as an example for something amazing?

>>3083658
your mistake is assuming only one person can respond.

>>3083624
>dodging the question

>>3083663
? wtf. How is the question any less relevant just if you are another person? Or did you ask the wrong post about why it was suppose to be amazing?

>>3083656
>It really isnt that amazing.
Dunning-Kruger pls

>>3083624
KJG is a professional artist. Talent would be if some random bloke was great at art but didn't even have a career out of it. The instant you have a career, it's all training and experience that lead to it.

>>3083676
But KJG's level is unattainable even by the hardest working professionals. He's leagues above everyone else and even top tier artists worship him because he draws all this shit with no reference, without preparatory drawings. If he's a case of raw talent (and he is) then talent exists.

>>3083670
>>3083643
It really isnt that amazing. I dont get it?

>>3083656 (You)
then why use it as an example for something amazing?

do you get it? im saying i dont get why its amazing, im asking why its amazing

>>3083674
is there one guy that posts this non stop? im never claimed to be amazing or better

>>3083681
If you say KJG isn't outstanding, you lack the technical basics to understand how insanely skilled he is. Post your work.

>>3083684
so i now i have the context that its without reference or guides. do you see how thats a relevant bit of info to his skill? i sure do

>>3083684

Pretty much this. Those type of comments of people who don't understand KJG are those who believe talent isn't necessary to "make it".

>>3083681
The post you quoted didn't say it was amazing. The post it replied to did.

Please sort yourself out. We got no idea of knowing if you are making typos or just quoting the wrong posts.

>>3083697
i never referenced a different post, i stated my opninion on the piece.

>>3083701
>i never referenced a different post, i stated my opninion on the piece.


It just seems more logical to ask
>I don't get it?
to the one who posted the picture instead if you wanted feedback.

>>3083681
Weird, when I look at

>>3083643

It says (you) as in I made this comment. But I didn't. When I look at other replies to the comment it doesn't say (you) anymore. Must be a bug.

>>3080164
Synix isn't better than sycra though.

>>3084064
they both suck you know..like i don't want to be mean or anything but perhaps you should look up to actual professionals

>>3084064
I never said they were pros

>>3084121
For>>3084072

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>>3079403

This shit works exactly the opposite, nigger.

>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172551/Art-genius-Nine-year-old-painter-tipped-greatness-buyers-world-snap-work.html

Just because there are some kids that paint better than you at age nine, you instantly think that is the norm. And what is that?

SURVIVORSHIP BIAS.

YES. There are talented people, but they don't make the absolute 100% of those who "made it".

Just everyone admit you don't even want to draw and go back to /r9k/. Fucking losers.

>>3078548
Started taking Dyanavel, which seems to do ok. Also doing Mindfulness training. Sounds like Wo at first, but it's been helping. Sadly, I still can draw without direct reference.

>>3084064

He is way better, dude.

>>3084142

/thread

/memes

/board

>>3084142
>dailymail
jesus man, you shouldn't have stooped so low

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>>3083543
The objective of art is to either inspire the imagination, evoke emotion, or impresss the viewer with its intricacy and still involve the first two. However, sometimes emotion is ATTACHED to the art, that on its own may not carry the same weight. Examples being, animations like the Simpsons and Southpark etc. On their own, they are cute colorful and enjoyable simple animations that may have never gotten more attention that once but since the are attached to characters and voices and a narratively textured world, they have become an organism that we would not have any other way. My point is on thier own those animations are technically not spectacular, interesting and fun yes, but not marvelous quality, intensely simple. But with attachments they become more and than they could possibly be alone. That's why you must be able to DISCERN very well when it comes to art. I think that may be the real talent. People with taste and VISION can see beforehand if there really is promise in something. I think the average person is much more delusional or lacks imagination and from there makes incorrect assumptions which lead to lackluster conclusions. All of those idiots claiming currency defines the merit of the creation shame their ancestors and are NO son or daughter of art. Just glory seekers and psychosocial patients improperly diagnosing themselves. There's a reason every other person on this site is depressed and morose. This is their BREEDING GROUND. Stay vigilant friends.

>>3084363
It's good to be a dreamer but you have to stay sober and really scrutinize what it is your bringing to fruition, that's the most important.

>>3084368
>>3084363
Both me.

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Talent isn't required to become like KJG. Drawing things from memory at the level he does is literally just a matter of practicing visual memory to a high degree and studying everything every day. Stephen Wiltshire isn't a master of Loomis but he can draw complex architectural scenes just by seeing it once simply because of good memory.

Time for a group hug guys.

>>3084689
What these mental cucks don't understand is that all intelligence is, is MEMORY. what else? Access speed. How quickly you can think does not seem you more useful than someone who has a slow engine. Sometimes the slow engines can notice things the speedsters zoom pass. It's all a journey to your chosen destination. If you have to fuel (passion and perseverance), you're already dead. There is no narrative for you, your story ends the second the book opens.

>>3084628
Kek.

>>3084239

Literally searched in google for "youngest painter" to make my point.

>>3084713
*does not deem you more useful

>>3084713
Honestly, I agree. A lot of people called me talented growing up when I started drawing at around the 4th grade. I never believed them though, because I thought drawing was just something I did in class while the teacher was talking. What's weird was that I still got almost perfect 100s in all my classes and was in gifted and talented even though I only did the homework when I felt confused. My Dad always said my memory was sharp and that's why I could draw stuff better than the other kids but I didn't think that wasn't true and it was just because I had drawn more than everyone. Now I think I understand why the hard working kids who got B's and C's in school thought I was trolling them when I told them all I did in class was pay attention for a little bit to the teacher and remember it later, they just couldn't remember as fast as I could. I think it had to do with the fact that I was a lazy shit and I always tried to find an easier way of doing and remember things when I was little, like coming up with funny stories to remember the multiplication table and shit.

>>3084748
Get out of here you talented fuck

>>3084753
I only really come here for the resources and to have a fun little goof and laugh with the memes and shitposts. I learn from copying and trying to "feel" the forms and concepts in the sketches of other artists I admire more than just relying on construction. It's weird, but I do better when I just look at shit and draw all the details I can and get general flow of how to draw it if that makes any sense....really it's just brute force memorization that I'd do for learning math concepts but it works for me and I usually can get it after 10 or 20 so tries

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>>3084748
>>3084784
>can memorize visually after 10 -20 so tries
>doesn't use construction
>just uses observation drawing and copying drawings
lel, where is your loomis now, you box drawing cucks? this talentfag just shat on your whole bullshit philosophy of construction.

>>3079407
This is true. Drawing a box doesn't take talent, nor does simply drawing what you see.

What makes an artist is the choices the artist makes, that turns it from just another drawing of a box, into an image that's compelling and people like to look at.

It's the same for any medium - you can learn guitar, drums, bass, singing, the mechanics of writing, but that doesn't mean you can write songs that people will buy or like, or write a guitar solo like Eruption by Eddie Van Halen, or write an award winning book.

Most anyone can learn how to use the tools - and you should, if it interests you, there are far worse hobbies than art. But it's what you DO with it that matters, and most people simply won't make a living at it. That's just cold hard reality.

Look at photography - anyone can buy a camera. I own a DSLR. And I know how to use it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be a professional photographer - I know my limitations with that medium, and I accept it. My strengths are in creative mediums like art and design. I make stuff people like. I have "talent", or a way of looking at things, and using colors and technique, that's different from most, and sets me apart from a hobbyist. I'm being careful here, because I don't want to come across as all ego - I'm proud of my accomplishments and talent, but I understand they're a gift, so i dont take it for granted.

>>3079689
100% of that is jealousy.

>>3084753
Original guy you were talking to here. I mean it's common sense that you cannot figure out what you don't know. Talented people have to learn just like everybody else. You can make an argument that they have a "headstart" in completing thier objective. But that doesn't mean they are the only ones who can finish a race. You catch my drift. These morons are in here crying they aren't Michael Jordan instead of worrying about becoming Muggsy Bogues.

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>>3084142
>>3084892

why do you fags still think everyone talking about talent is complaining? What if I just want no-talent posers to fuck off?

>>3078520
Because talent shows itself only once the artist has full control over its medium, before that it is just guessing.
Unless for talent you mean being able to learn with ease, and that is completely irrelevant in the long run. If you're a drawer you may have 70 years worth of practice in front of you: if this is the case, whatever speed you go on, you will eventually catch everyone (people do not improve exponentially: once one can do whatever he wants with his brush the real challenge begins).

Also it may as well be that the artist may produce masterpieces as a dilettante. Should I remember you that Van Gogh is maybe the most famous painter of the last 300 years?

>>3084793

>He can.

>Therefore anyone can too.

>>3084363
you can afford those fine ideals when you got the money to support it. On top of that you have to maintain your skills which in most peoples cases means that they have to spend their daily work hours on art. You can't do that in the long run if you don't have an art related income, one that allows you to pursue art on the sideline or are wealthy.

Of course an art related income alone doesn't do it. There are many artists who stagnate and just do low standard work once they "make it".

It's not black and white.

>>3084899
Because it's basic human psychology. People want to feel superior. Everyone wants to be a big fish in a small pond, not a big fish in an oceon of even bigger fish, which makes you the small fish. If you were talented, you wouldn't want "no-talent posers" to fuck off, you'd want to lecture them and encourage them and feel like an art god in comparison. That is why everyone talented always stresses the importance of hard work and everyone untalented always stresses the importance of talent.

>>3084960
nah.

It takes work. A lot of it. If it's hard entirely depends on the attitude of the person.

There may also be some kind of talent involved but more importantly is the will to evolve and experiment. You could say it's the talent that makes you want to experiment and push your limits. It could be made up of some desire, vision or just an innate visual understanding that allow you an easy time at a single aspect (Although that is overrated and can just as easily become a hinderance).

There are many kids today who don't even know what hard work means. Low attention span and entitlement. They think 1 month is a long time. They need to be told to work harder and many give up.

Intelligence obviously also plays a part since it's a study.

Then there's luck and the fact that becoming popular/success takes networking and social engineering.


In the end the concept of making it is stupid as it means something different to each person.

>>3084689
>Stephen Wiltshire
draws like shit, he's autistic

>>3084689
>Talent isn't required to become like KJG.
Yet there is one KJG in the whole world, and he's leagues above all other seasoned professionals. You're basically calling everyone below KJG lazy.

>>3085014
>Yet there is one KJG in the whole world, and he's leagues above all other seasoned professionals.

Is he really though? He's leagues above them in terms of freehand sketching, sure, but If I wanted to hire an artist for an actual illustration or a comic book and I had an unlimited budget and could get whoever I wanted, I definitely wouldn't go with KJG.

>>3084689
> Stephen Wiltshire isn't a master of Loomis but he can draw complex architectural scenes just by seeing it once simply because of good memory.

He can't invent those scenes though, KJG can. And KJG does use construction, his whole thing is that he is able to visualize everything in planes and cubes. Only difference is that his construction is done inside his head, not on paper.

You need to stop it with this delusion of yours that you will someday somehow be able to draw like KJG without understanding perspective and basic form.

>>3085022

Not that guy.

It gets a little more subjective once you look at the best the art world has to offer of course. It might eventually just come down to style or who can depict this situation or subject matter the best. I don't think he can do animation for example, or if he could he wouldn't be able to do it as well as someone who has spent decades animating.

People like to put KJG at the top because of his range and ability to draw directly. If art was a video game he'd probably be the artist with the overall best stats.

>>3085026

Well this Wiltshire guy is actually autistic. He can probably see images in his head as well as KJG, he just can't invent anything since it's all based on his memories.

I don't see any point in bringing up that guy on a board primarily interested in drawing from imagination.

>>3085030
Obviously I wouldn't compare him to artists who do a completely different type of work such as animators or designers. That's why I said illustration and comics, because that's what he does professionally outside of his demos and workshops. He is a comic book artist and an illustrator and he is far from the best at either of those.

>>3085036

True. I suppose even if he does have a lot of technical skill there are people who can still draw images that are ultimately more appealing and evocative.

As much as I like KJG I find myself not looking at his work all that much. I suppose it feels too samey after a while.

>>3085022
KJG makes comics and they look sick. He can also paint and render as shown in his Superani videos. He's not some "ink sketch guy", he can do a TON of stuff, and he can draw things cartoony as well as realistic. His range of skills is what makes him outstanding. The man is fucking maxed out.

>>3082443
Dummy, that religious work was paid for, by the church. The Catholic Church was one of the biggest patrons of the Renaissance, paying out huge amounts of money for art.

>>3084967
>It takes work. A lot of it. If it's hard entirely depends on the attitude of the person.

Keep telling yourself that.

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>>3078520
>People who believe talent exists will complain how people have talent for 8 hours a day rather than actually draw.

It's almost as if the problem is right in front of you.

>>3084960
>I should want to give people false hope

>>3084967
>attitude matters

Except people with the worst attitudes towards things make the most meaningful art.

>>3085217
Instead you rather try to discourage them accross the board regardless of you not even knowing whether or not they actually have any talent? I mean, let's face it, you're talking about complete strangers here, not your best friend who tried for 10 years and just doesn't get it. Chances are, a good chunk of the people who you want to quit are way more talented than you are.

>>3082443
God died to become the oil in my paints.

>>3085106

t. lazy NEET.

>>3082443
but the people who made that religous art were payed no

>>3085301
Yeah art's always been paid for. Right now you have 10x the amount of people and many of the younger people are jobless or have shit jobs so they decide to pursue a career like art and try to have a shot at success. Now artists are dime a dozen and there's really no reason to pay someone for the incredibly niche things art still exists for. Photography and photomanipulation has taken the spot in advertisement, and computers have replaced much of the traditional skillset since gallery work is even more niche. Art as a trade is dead.

>>3085217
what do you know about what the worst attitude toward art is? Or what goes on inside their heads for that matter.

>>3083532
How can you seriously argue that programming is not a creative medium? Have you never heard of these things called "video games" ?
Or are you saying making an interactive piece isn't creative? You need a reality check man.

I'm not saying all programming is creative, but it can be considered a creative medium. Just how drawing can be a logical medium (architecture, design, etc)

>>3085328
he can because he doesn't know what he's talking about. There are a lot of ways to program and you can even spot individual styles of people. There is an ever growing amount of languages and it's up to you to combine them with their strengths and weaknesses into what solves an issue best. It doesn't get much more creative than that.

It can be an uncreative monotone job but so can art or anything else for that matter. There just happens to be a lot more money in programming and a need for people to do repetitive jobs that pay well.

>>3078583
>Unless you make porn or pander super hardcore...you need to be god tier

Awesome! Looks like I dodged a bullet!

>>3082449
>Art in its purity came from modernity, all the pioneers before hand were secretly apathetic to their inner desires

That AIDS of a comment is the EXACT reason you're hibernating in this board instead of showing your face in public. It's because you would get absolutely ass blasted that you would never have excrement to release again. My goodness, good luck with life.

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>>3085283
there's no way of quantifying or proving this.

>>3085317
it's pretty obvious in their art mate. Sorry you aren't talented enough to see it :^)

>>3083624

This isnt hard. This isn't "talent". This is time. It is effort.

You "talent is everything" fags are hopeless

I wish one of these names would be brave enough to post a sketchbook say from when they were 13-18

>>3085884
Posting a sketchbook from an early age is a fake metric and meaningless, especially if someone hasn't taken up art seriously yet. I consider myself to have talent, and I have no work from that age, because I didn't save anything, or use sketchbooks yet. The earliest work I have is from high school, and I'd post it, if this wasn't 4chan and full of Stalky McStalkers.

And, one doesn't need to have a portfolio of work, to claim talent exists. The "show your work" meme is the last bastion of the weak and talentless, who have nothing left to offer the discussion. Talent is evident not only to the artist, but to the viewer, who doesn't need talent to see it.

If the work of that artist is so lacking in talent, then why aren't there legions of artists doing the same level of work? Oh, that's right, you dismiss that with "they're lazy, hurrrr"

Talent exists. Anyone who disagrees, doesn't have any. Jealousy is the only reason why you'd even argue that point. You're trying to discount the work, and uniqueness of the work of talented artists, because you can't rise to that level yourself, but you want to larp that anyone can, to discredit his talent, and soothe your butthurt ego.

>>3084142

>YES. There are talented people, but they don't make the absolute 100% of those who "made it".

Don't know why are you niggers discussing after this was said.

If you retards knew a 100% hard-working artist that became successful after many years of studying and discipline, you'll instantly argue:

>b-but he was talented after all!
>Being able to concentrate is a talent too!
>I am a natural lazy piece of shit!!
>m-muh genes!
>fucking able-bodied cis scum REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Just fucking kill yourselves.

>>3085952

Op here, your post sums up what I think. Good post.

>>3085993

This was debated before in the thread. There are plenty of hard working artists who are also talented and are plenty of hard working artists in the industry, nobody denied that.

>>3085952

>Talent exists and I am talented
>Lol post my work to doxx myself?
>no thanks
>One doesn't need to prove they have talent with tangible proofs.
>You're just jelly of talented ppl
>Asking for work is just accepting you have no talent.

mmmkay... you're full of shit. And the primest example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

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>>3085993
>w-why are people ignoring my ebin post? I btfo'd everyone!

Because nobody actually said you had to be talented to "make it", you attention whoring fucktard. The video I posted didn't imply that either. The original point of the OP was to discuss why (presumably successful) artists lie about talent when it's so obviously noticeable at higher levels, not "hurr I'll never make any money off of anime tiddies because I'm not talented". Seems the only thing you have talent for is shitposting.

>>3085952
>Talent exists. Anyone who disagrees, doesn't have any. Jealousy is the only reason why you'd even argue that point. You're trying to discount the work, and uniqueness of the work of talented artists, because you can't rise to that level yourself, but you want to larp that anyone can, to discredit his talent, and soothe your butthurt ego.

I want to mount this whole post on my wall but this especially.

>>3083676

Talent would be if some random person that never took art or drawing grabbed a pen and made a piece of high quality.

I don't know if you niggers believe that talent is simply drawing quality pieces, not being a lazy piece of shit, being able to learn or what.

Read "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle or "Development of professional expertise" by Anders Ericsson. Really. You're too up you ass. Fags.

>>3086057

Talent is not magic you dumbfuck.

>>3086052

>"Hur durr two people cannot share the same point of view"

>To anyone who reached certain level in art it becomes obvious that talent is a true thing
>The point is not "Talent is real"
>Is "Artists lying about talent being real"

I kek at your stupidity, really.

>>3086072
this must be one of those faggots without talent everybody is talking about.

>>3086075

>W-well... you don't have talent lol!

Nigger pls. I could come up with a better comeback, but hey, shitposting requires "talent" too! haha!

>>3086080
yet all you could do in your previous post was call me stupid.

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>>3086088

>He thinks being called "stupid" is a baseless insult rather than a mere description.

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>>3086105
I like how that took you 20 minutes. You aren't shit fuckboi.

>>3086072
Post your work.

>>3086046
Another talentless shithead chimes in.

>>3085952
>Talent exists. Anyone who disagrees, doesn't have any. Jealousy is the only reason why you'd even argue that point. You're trying to discount the work, and uniqueness of the work of talented artists, because you can't rise to that level yourself, but you want to larp that anyone can, to discredit his talent, and soothe your butthurt ego.


Now you are completely distorting reality, anon. Just earlier in this thread we had you or someone who holds your same views on talent complain about "talented" professional artists always telling their audience the main deciding factor is hard work and not talent. You are the one who is LARPING and completely discrediting the experience these professionals share, the hard work it took them to get there and even flat out calling them liars, just so YOU can soothe your butthurt ego.

>>3086259
>trying to get the last word in now that the thread's hit the bump limit with the same weak ass reversal bullshit you used earlier

pathetic.

Saying talent doesn't exist in art is like saying talent doesn't exist in sports.

>>3082413
This anon is correct, if you disagree it's because you don't have what it takes, if you did you would already know the truth in it.