>I spent a lot of time drawing to do comics >I find out

Then don't put words in your comics and make it pre-language fucking cavemen

dummy smfh

>>3059010
Well made comics with no dialog require even greater story telling skills. The story isn't the written words you see on the page but what happens within the panels.

>>3059014
Pick a weird mental/physical disorder than make a comic about it.

>>3059010
>>3059014
You still need to write a story even if it contains zero dialogue.

Writing stories isn't about the words either than it's about coming up with the ideas, concepts and structure of the story.

I hit a similar wall to OP's when I was (semi)seriously considering drawing comics, although it was more of a double whammy, not only you need good writing/storytelling skills, it also takes a ridiculous amount of work to actually finish drawing even a simple story in comic form, if you go for anything like realistic art style, even if you rely on references like a bitch, even if you have someone else writing the story

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Its kinda weird, because I had a friend that made me a story, and I know how to make story telling, even without words, I would say pretty decent, but when Im by myself it becomes really hard.

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>>3059009
If you want to work with someone, I can share some ideas with you and we can make a blog or something together, or maybe just a one-time collab

>read good books, comics
>watch good movies
>imagine stories in your head when trying to sleep
>pay attention to how people actually talk IRL to write good dialogue
>practice

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>>3059009
Im in the exact same position. Its been years now and I still don't feel like im up to the challenge art or story wise

>>3059097
You'll never be if you don't start doing it. No one has ever gotten so well prepared through isolated exercises that their first ever comic wasn't shit.

>>3059082
Then at least do an entire /ic/ collab cause I wanna join in on that shit.

>>3059009
>>I find out that story is the kinda more important than the drawings

The medium is the message and the story is the drawings. If the story doesn't benefit from being told through drawings, spare yourself and write a novel.

If you suck at writing plot, just take an existing plot and twist it at your whim. >>3059114 is unfortunately correct, your first comic will be shit, so rather make it now and learn from your errors.

>>3059216
> /ic/ Sandman when?

>>3059216
We've had comic collab threads before but they never work because mostly people join in who just want to fuck around and draw penises and Jojo references. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it would be kinda cool to have a collab for once with people who actually want to try their best.

>>3059286
OP here, how does that collab work?

>>3059241
I do have done comics and saw a fucking bunch of errors, and the biggest one was the problem im stating in the Thread

I finished a comic and shredded it. It turned out well, but it relied heavily upon reference.

It starts with something simple and you like it more bizarre than it looks

Here's what I know about stories.
Write what you know. The way you interpret this is up to you but I've found that you don't always have to adhere to exactly what happens in life. I've found that what works is to copy the FEELINGS of the events that happened to you and write things in to convey those feelings as strong as possible in your writing, even if that means making big changes to the events and adding dramatizations in there. For example, if you had troubles transitioning into an adult life or an extreme passion for creating art you could create a coming-of age story about an inventor who leaves home for the first time to find his parents. Even if you don't have any experience with any of those things you can still make it resonate with people as long as you make the characters and the audience feel the same things you felt when growing up. It's always a good idea to base characters and environments off of real things but even those can be faked to a degree. However, the one thing I've noticed is that you can't fake feelings, and people will always resonate with real ones than fake ones.

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>>3059009
There are books that can help. Pic related are pretty insightful. Im looking for more though.

Interesting advices Anons.

>>3059654
this made me remember Attack on titan, It uses the feeling of figthing for survival.

>want to write comics
>infinitely better at storywriting than making interesting panels graphically

>>3059665
Team up with OP and make a comic

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>>3059654
>you can't fake feelings

Watch me.

>>3059583
answer dis shit, I really wanna know.

>>3059671
That Ted Bundy reference

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>>3059691

>>3059009
I can be your idea guy.

>>3059702
bring them on

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>I spent a lot of time sperging out as a little kid about making my own cartoons
>I get older and find out the cartoon industry is secretly ruled by Calarts bullshit
>Can't draw for shit, go to regular film program
>The more I learn about general film, the more I grow to dislike the quirky video game Miyazaki anime shit that's overtaken American animation
>Still enjoy watching animation more than live action save for a few directors
>I pretentiously think I'm better at story than most of the animation industry
>Ascended above "drawing vs writing" dichotomy, realize that visual storytelling requires mastery of capturing juxtaposed images not to primarily tell the story but to use the entire work for the intended emotional evocation like Eisenstein wanted
>Still can't draw so it doesn't fucking matter
>Nobody who can really gives a shit, at least not on the conscious level I do
>mfw

I have the same problem. Then I teamed up with a writer. Turns out the writer was like this guy:
>>3059010
And thought writing just meant words and couldn't put a story together for shit either. Fun times.

>>3059009
I am in a similar position. I'm 26, spent my whole life pursuing art, worked as a concept artist, all building towards art in the field of games comics and animation. Left studio life to pursue more self-directed approach to art.

I think I will be good at stories later on. When I started getting into the actual creative side of comics, I realized how important storytelling really was. So what did I do? I tried to be more bold socially, and I started reading books!
After a year-and-a-half, I had lots of story elements, and a world was starting to come together, but I still had a pretty big problem: I couldn't just sit down and get started! Owning everything made making even the smallest decisions very difficult for me.
What did I do next? Well, I wanted to make a comic still, so I asked a friend of mine who's very creative to write something for me. Mind you, he's not some writer exactly, he's just someone who enjoys it and comes of with fantastic and entertaining material. Now I've got an entire 45 page issue almost complete after just a couple months!

My advice to you is just create!! that doesn't even necessarily mean doing writing yourself, for someone who's spent their life doing it by themselves, collaborating IS a creative thing to do! :)

i have the opposite problem, i can write a story left and right but cant draw well enough yet.

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I know those feels OP. I thought that if I just learned to draw somehow the stories would happen by themselves. Learning storytelling is a beast of its own. And sadly writing guides focus mostly on grammar and (text) composition. There is not much out there for visual storytelling. There are books like Framed by Ink or Scott McCloud's guides, but those still don't tell you how to come up with stories.

Here are somethings that I wish someone had told me sooner.

>1.- Stories stretch to the boundaries.
Any story can be told in a sentence or stretched by a 1000 pages. Think of how a movie can be compressed to a one minute trailer. Feng shows on his IP creation video how good IPs can be described in one sentence. Or how a movie poster sums up the entire film. Remember how Hemingway was challenged to write a story in 6 words and he came up with "For sale: baby shoes, never worn." His favorite story.

So before you start is useful to set a limit. 3 sentences. 50 panels. 7 pages. Then fit the story to that space.

>2.- So don't be afraid to start small.
A comic technically only requires 2 panels. Maybe one. An after and a before. Setup and payoff. It has become kind of a meme in porn "instant loss 2koma". Pic related.

It's not a very interesting story, but it's a story. It has a beginning and ending. You might even add 3 panels to get the classic "Introduction-Conflict-Resolution". You don't need to create a large franchise with original characters or 10 volumes as your first work, so don't push it yet. Baby steps.

>>3060041
>3.- All stories have already been told.
This is a hard one to swallow. But no matter how creative you are, chances are that whatever crazy story you write, someone probably has told a similar story before. All stories are very derivative. And that's ok. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPERZDfyWc

You see, I want to eat steak more than once in my life. I like to have sex more than once. I like to earn money several times. If something is worth experiencing once, then it's probably good to repeat it. There is nothing wrong with hearing the same story again. People really get bored with the narrator/medium. But not the story itself. No one will ever get tired of the underdog winning or the couple finding love despite all odds. No one will get tired of assholes getting punched in the face.

What you really have control over, is the storytelling. Don't worry too much about being original, but worry about being eloquent.

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>>3060044
>4.- Premade paneling.
You don't need to be super original with layouts either.
This guy has been writing comics for 14 years using the very same unchanging paneling and poses. 14 years!. http://www.qwantz.com/archive.php

Japan has their 4koma. Just 4 consecutive panels. And each has an individual function.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonkoma

I have found that it's easier to fit story and dialog into premade panels rather than writing a text script and then turning it into a visual form. Going from raw text to image is always a harsh translation.

While I was studying paneling from manga I realized that I could boil it down to like 10 different pages. Meaning that I could create 10 template pages of panels and tell any story possible with just those 10. The reading direction and flow are already taken care of. You just worry about filling the panels with drawings. You'll be using set patterns more often than not.

Here is a notebook I saw the other day. Pic related. The idea is great, you can just worry about filling in with drawings instead of worrying about flow.

Think about how many movies there are. It's almost a given that there are no original compositions left.


>5.- The book that destroyed hollywood.
This book is very controversial. It created a set structure of 15 acts that most Hollywood movies use. It's universal and super effective, that's why most movies nowadays feel the same. It's very hard to stray away from it since it works so well.
https://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/dp/1932907009

If you play some movies side by side, you'll see that action scenes or certain tone shifts happen on the very same second. It's scientifically tested to be the most effective way to engage the audience.

Take away what you want from this, but just realize that you need less creativity than you think.

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>>3060048

>6.- Photo storyboarding.
Finally one small trick that storyboarders and most visual storytellers use. From mangaka to hollywood directors. Instead of drawing thumbnails or sketching simply take your cellphone out and take photos.
It's that simple.

If you're going to draw a story in a restaurant just take photos of compositions, where the characters would sit. What angles would you use to introduce the story. Use friends to act the scene to get ideas on how to compose.

Kojima uses toys and legos to plan his cinematics. Cinematographers use maquettes and models to decide on camera set ups and shots. All with just a cellphone camera.

Most times this will be faster than sketching hundreds of thumbnails hoping to find something to say. You get a lot of ideas just by actually being on the scene, looking around and imagining how it will play out.

Good luck in your journey.

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>>3059216
>>3059241
>>3059583
>[email protected]
This is a old throwaway email I have, send there some of your work/blog, what you can do and your idea/what you would like to work on, I'll reply you with my personal email and/or some blog I have, anything so we can keep in touch

After getting some applicants, we will discuss what we are going to do and what tasks each one of us will do
The final project can be launched in a separate new blog, or we can launch in all our sites or anything, thats up to you people to decide ( I'm very neutral on this aspect because I'm eager to get work done )

2bh I don't expect much people to do it but thats better, the less people the more focused the work will be
Finally, we are going to do something small tho, having unrealistic high standards will only hurt us its our first time and everything just to get work done and some experience its our main goal

>>3059009
get hired to do someone elses story
since you didnt even care about the story in the first place what does it matter

>>3059583
>>3059688
It was just a thread where OP would post a crudely drawn first panel plus the border for the second one and then the next anon fills in the next panel + adds a border for the 3rd and so on. It wasn't any serious collab with the intention of getting a proper comic done. More like write a letter one word at a time, but with comic panels.

>>3060074
Why not just do it here on /ic/? There seem to be lots of "I wanna draw a comic, but.." threads popping up all the time, so a comic challenge / collab thread would probably be a good way to get some people with the same interests together to do something.

>>3060357
So it can be archived, also we don't know some people may want to show off on their blog because its natural to want to take credit in something you worked in.
But its going to get posted on /ic/ for sure probably on this thread, also we just got a style meme general, maybe we can get a /ic/ collabs general in the future?

I just don't think people here draw that much, when they do wanna draw is for their own reasons like the 2 furries OCs we got just this month with like 200+ replies.

>>3059009
Find a talented writer to work with, alternatively learn how to write yourself. Writing is its own skillset. Personally, I'd do both, granted, bear in mind it does take about as long to learn how to write as it does to get decent at art. Which is why getting a partner helps. You'll also learn a lot about writing by working with them through sheer osmosis, if they're good that is...

That said, you'd be surprised at the number of writers interested in working in comics, who lack the ability to draw. The key however, is finding one that's good.

>>3059009
Hahahaha. Dumb frogposter. Die alone you burden on society :)

>>3060408
If there was a halfway-decent artist who wanted to draw a few test scenes from my movie pitch as a comic I'd fucking love it.

>>3059009

make a cartoon about a bunch of 1st year student sjw's / antifa living together and failing together and lezzing out in the hallways.

>>3060425
>1st year
1st year of sociology, humanities or arts, that's usually where they can be found.

>>3060419
any money for it?

>>3060388
>I just don't think people here draw that much

Yeah, but if you do happen to get a handful of likeminded people together from here who do want to draw comics, I don't see why it has to be done through emails and not just directly on here.

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>>3059009
You started out shit at art too.
..But you presumably aren't anymore...
Just takes practice.
Same with stories.

>>3060447
I was thinking to avoid namefagging, but if you want to be here is alright with me

The sole reason I don't post my normal email here is because the last time I got spammed with bullshit links and dick picks for a week, and I don't want to post my blog because there is people bitter as fuck who is going to hard shill against you and say stupid shit like you attention whoring

>>3059709
I think you never stopped sperging

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>>3059009
It's now or never! If you don't start now with gitting gud at storytelling you will never see your vision realized!

The writing process isn't that hard really, but it requires patience. If you're patient with drawing then this shouldn't be a problem. You don't even need to be that good at writing since what you would need for a comic is ''just'' a script. Scripts mostly consist of dialogue and/or narration plus instructions regarding panel illustration. Do refer to the related image for an example on what a comic script looks like.

My suggestions to get started on storytelling are as follows.
1) Make a simple, general outline of the events that will take place in your story. Do NOT proceed to phase two until you finished this one first.
Example:
- Red Hood wants to visit her grandma;
- RH gets lost in the forest;
- A wolf appears etc. etc.
I strongly suggest making absolutely sure you're content with the story you have at this point before proceeding. If you aren't, then rework it until you are. If you still aren't satisfied after many reworkings you might have to make a major overhaul/simplifications or drop the story entirely.
2) Revisit the event outline. What you can do is eliminating shit that is useless/could make your story drag on for too long or add elements that are missing without which the reader may feel confused of frustrated, for example if some questions are left unanswered. Do look up Chekhov's Gun for further input.
OPTIONAL) Leave the event outline to rest. Come back to it a week or month later and re-read it: if it doesn't make you cringe proceed to the next phase.
3) Write the actual comic script (again, finish this phase first, THEN proceed to the next).
4) Revisit the comic script. If you've done phase 1 right you should be content with the story you've got and shouldn't have the need to make modifications.
OPTIONAL) Leave the comic script to rest. Come back to it some time later and if you still like it proceed.
5) Draw the comic

Oh yeah, one more thing: avoid THE CHOSEN ONE cliché and McGuffins like the plague. They're just lazy and boring as fuck

Just read more books. Not comics but actual litterature.

>>3060635
You should do both, but reading comics is far more important if you want to get good at story telling through sequential art. immersing yourself in the medium you want to work with is always the priority. A film student won't primarely read classical literature and an animation student won't primarely watch movies.

>>3060594
good tips

>>3059009
Read a shitton of books/manga/comics and watch a lot of movies. The ideas will come up eventually.

>>3059009
I have the opposite problem (granted I haven't been drawing for long). I would've asked if you wanted to make a collaborative work a few weeks ago, but doing everything yourself is far better. Here's hoping my drawing skills can become as promising as my writing.

>>3060511
this

Also Miyazaki is both superb in writing and animating, if you think you work is better than his or you are better than him in anything for the matter, you are delusional

>>3059082
Sent you a email if you still interested.

>>3060924
Ayy thanks man

>>3060041
can anyone translate ?

>>3060041
>>3060044
>>3060048
>>3060051
Thanks for the advice anon. I wonder what you mean by they get bored of the narrator/medium but not the story itself. Also know anyway to find template pages of panels? Or did you just study to learn them?

>>3059009
>>3053288
Read this:
>Manga in Theory and Practice: The Craft of Creating Manga - Hirohiko Araki

>>3059709
You sound really annoying.

>I want to do comics but I have no good story ideas
Where the fuck do you people come from?

>>3062750
Isn't that the exact same way for pretty much anyone starting out wanting to do comics? I mean the only difference is some people have a decent enough taste to see early on that their story ideas are shit and some don't.

>>3059009
>>3062750
>>3062808
I feel like I'm pretty much the opposite. I've gotten cold feet because I don't think my art can do my stories justice.

>>3062815
Do you actually have a well written plot outline with a beginning, middle and end and turned that into a finished script for your comic pages? Because in my experience, people very often confuse a good story with a good premise.

>>3062853
Yep building stories is pretty much a separate skill both to writing and drawing

I mean I'm pretty confident in both my writing and drawing skills, if I have a scene in mind I can describe it in words or I can draw it, but coming up with a fully fledged story where things happen logically and there's an actual point to it all is something I've always struggled with.

I recently started reading this book called Hulk's Screenwriting 101 at an anon's suggestion and I have to say there's some very illuminating stuff in there, even if you think you have read all the writing tuts out there

>>3059009
>writefags arrogant enough to believe they can write a comic without knowing how to draw
>drawfags arrogant enough to believe they can draw a comic without knowing how to write
>both parties too autistic to work together

Tale as old as time.

>>3063318
What I wouldn't give to find a writer to partner up with. Then again all hopeful authors want to do a cringeworthy 4000 page epic as their very first project.

>>3062750
I wanted to do animation but when time came to come up with a story for a short film I didn't know what the fuck to do. All I could think of was small scenes, movements, reactions, feelings. I didn't like any of the stories I came up with, I still don't.

I wonder if the problem for some struggling writers is that they have misunderstood storytelling. Like how audiences generally judge stories based on how well they portray social interaction between the characters or how causally believable the plot is. Things like characters aren't 'the point' of stories, the point is some kind of an idea or statement that is repeated and reinforced and conveyed in an eloquent manner with the narrative framing. What is the thing that you want to express? You need that core that defines your story and dictates how you build it.

Basic exercise that will help you a lot is to analyze a story you like or are familiar with in order to figure out what it can be reduced to. This is the step that people give up on because they think it's too pretentious or there's a thing such as 'reading too much into it'. No, it's necessary.

>>3063415
That kind of thinking can be creatively pretty restrictive when trying to come up with short stories. A story at its core is just a character who wants something. You don't need a deep message behind everything.

>>3063415
I'd argue that it's a mix of different things. When it comes to purely appeal, well defined entertaining characters and quality dynamics can carry an otherwise completely bland premise very, very far.
Simultaneously most truly successful stories, both critically and commercially, tend to be stories that have a strong, well defined thematic/aesthetic appeal to them as well, whether it's the nuts and bolts rugged samurai cowboy sci-fi of Star Wars, the cartoonishly exaggerated insanity of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, or the entire Kanye West persona.
I'd argue the (distant) third place is storytelling abilities. Whether it's raw technical ability, pacing, uniqueness, writing, visual dynamics, etc. If you want to draw a good comic you need to actually draw a good comic, but you can skimp a little bit if you have a really good "feel" and really good characters.

>>3063449
>A story at its core is just a character who wants something
There are many examples of short stories that aren't that at all. Classic fables and fairy tales are moral lessons at their core. A character who wants something can be further reduced to questions like "is it right to want something"? It's not about depth, because everything has enough context to it to produce impressive amounts of commentary and analysis on it.

>>3063477
You're talking about quality, I'm talking about the process of writing itself and how to approach it in order to get started at all. People get it backwards and think of stuff like characters first, without being conscious of what greater idea motivated the creation of those characters. And then they struggle to place those characters in a story. If they had defined the core first, the characters would emerge naturally with the plot and other stuff.

For quality, the execution (or as you worded, storytelling abilities) is everything.

>>3060051
>tfw I did this for homework during my storyboard art classes

Glad to know I'm not alone on this and not autistic.

.......wait.

>>3063521
>People get it backwards and think of stuff like characters first, without being conscious of what greater idea motivated the creation of those characters.

Pretty sure you are the one who got it backwards. No writer actually works like this. It's what students do after reading invisible ink and taking writing 101 classes at college.

>>3063521
>If they had defined the core first, the characters would emerge naturally with the plot and other stuff.

Can you post an example of "defining a core" that would have characters emerge naturally together with the plot?

>>3060511
Is it real sperging if most others aren't knowledgeable on what it is you're sperging about?

>>3061115
Miyazaki is great, I don't think I'm better than Miyazaki in any way. I was talking about it as an example of modern animators just drawing from something, and how this unspoken "get it?" mentality is conditioning people into accepting stagnation that praises something without really understanding how to apply it in an original way. It's like the Tarantino fans in live action film programs.

>>3063521
That isn't true at all. Look at how most projects start, you can see how the idea and the "core themes" evolve over time. Television sitcoms are a great example, most have that weird first season where the tone and the "point" of the show are distinctly different from the rest of the series because the writers haven't settled into a "grove" yet.
Most stories start out with a pitch, then characters which serve this premise, then general story premise, then vague plot arc. It isn't until most of what you'd call a "first draft" is written that any general sort of tone, message, or theme starts to develop, and even then it will definitely change over time.

>>3063565
It's easy to generate premises. Any poster in this thread could effortlessly crank out hundreds of premises ranging from 'a cop who is also dog' to way more elaborate examples. Those usually fail or go nowhere precisely because people aren't sure why they would be compelling, or how they could be made compelling. That's what the core is for. It's ultimately more convenient to have a though like "physical challenges are exciting" or "self-sacrifice is the most noble quality one can have" and throw a premise like "a nerd who starts learning rock-climbing" on top of it than the other way around.

>>3060048
mind sharing those 10 template panels?
might be useful

>>3059009
try really hard to make it super original

i like to make my comic ideas super depressing and sad and they always end super fucking depressing. the good guys never win and literally everyone dies in my stories

>>3062515
Yoo didn't knew Araki had a book
Love his storytelling but his art can become pretty shit sometimes, and that just goes to show that a good story is way better than pretty drawings

>>3063667
I feel Araki is a better writer and illustrator than manga artist, but I think it's also because manga doesn't have colour.

I've been re-reading Stone Ocean in colour and it's much more easier to read.

First come up with a premise or an idea you'd like to go into detail about. Then break it down into 3 parts: beginning, middle, and end. Write a paragraph for each part. Then take the beginning, middle, and end and break those into smaller chunks. Keep breaking every bit down until you're satisfied. I like to look at the way Eiichiro Oda has all his shit organized by sagas and arcs and observe the way he writes.