What happened to art being taken seriously in western education?

>>2907379
add on that all the bad habits this time of ''art education'' gave, which took me YEARS just to unlearn

I started drawing seriously 5 years ago, but just this year I started actually feeling I am improving, while in the first 4 it was all ''wait, this exercises is not good? then why did I waste 3 months on it? wait, you are not suppose to do it this way? then why have I been tough like this in school?''

File: 1483206241397.jpg (185KB, 1224x946px) Image search: [Google]

185KB, 1224x946px

>>2907379
>What happened to art being taken seriously in western education?
>All my primary and secondary education, the art classes I took, totaled up to giving me jack shit for actual skills.

It's not education fault. It's you being retarded. Another UStard who can't even google good art schools in his own country.

>>2907379

According to some pros in the industry, around the 50's the abstract scene started gaining a lot of ground and people began to forget about hardcore fundamentals, steering more towards expression, now hi-jacked by modern liberals and their need for safe spaces, most art schools teachers don't even know Perspective themselves beyond ''All lines recede to a VP'' which is hardly scrapping the surface.

If you want a good school, look for one ran by ex-industry or current pros. Like Art Center, Gnmon, FZD...etc

>>2907401
>Another UStard who can't even google good art schools in his own country.
I was talking about post and secondary education eurofag. Grade school should introduce concepts for children to learn, explore, and build upon. Not mislead and fuck them over wasting their time.

>>2907404
Lmao. Name country with post and secondary art education that teach you "art skills"

>>2907415
the point is

in any other field touch in school, you atleast learn some basics or fundamentals in post and secondary education, and when you go to high school and university specialized on those, the entry exams are based on what you learn

but art is the single field where those which enter into high school and beyond, do it on the skills which they developed alone, or from others (family, friends) in the field. Or they entered into a shit school where they continue to teach you jack shit stuff related to the industry

>>2907379
Most art teachers are shit. Art class was usually a waste of time where we got a random assignment that we worked on for a few weeks while our teacher drank coffee. Most of them gave the impression that they were only there because they wanted to do a subject where they could earn government bucks while slacking off.
I don't even know if most of my art teachers could actually draw at all. I don't think I've ever seen one demonstrate something.

>>2907415
A lot of Asia like China, Japan and Korea. At least some schools in Russia.

>>2907429
That is an /ic/ meme based on 1 image where a bunch of asian kids are doing cast studies. The great asian school art education you think exists is having the students copy sculptures for 1-2 hours every week in art class. No one in any korean, japanese or chinese high school is actually actively trying to encourage children to seriously study art at expense of the real subjects that are important to get into a good university.

>>2907463
I'm basing it off of more than just that north korean propaganda photo. I've met several people who grew up in China or Korea and received training, and I've read and seen some things online that talk about it too. It's not an amazing set up, but it still does teach fundamental art skills like perspective and cast drawing and good observation. It's a huge difference to giving kids macaroni and poster paint and telling them to have fun.

Highschool depends entirely on your school district, something which people seem to be consistently unable to understand. If you live in a shit neighborhood then don't expect much from your schools. Personally, my art classes were great in highschool.

Problem in college is that there is just no money in good art education. Nobody with half a brain will spend a lot of money for an art education, the only people willing to spend are infantile hipsters looking for adult babysitting, and idiots in general.

>>2907379
WHY THE FUCK IS HIS RM ON THE CANVAS LIKE THAT REEEE

>>2907429
>At least some schools in Russia.
Let's see. Yeah, in some schools. Art related lyceums. We all knows that IZO is joke.
>A lot of Asia like China, Japan and Korea
Any real proofs?

>>2907543
because his teacher isn't teaching shit

>>2907599
is his teacher that hot asian chick in the back?

whats with this school where are all the white males? Maybe they're all on /ic/ and this is where the normies receive instruction.

>>2907379
In my country we only had one year of art classes and I still remember them fondly

our teacher really cared about teaching us and taught us some fundies like perspective and lighting/shadows. It was a really basic class but it was fun and served its purpose

>>2907401
I'm pretty sure OP was talking about the PUBLIC education system not taking art seriously...

File: image.jpg (47KB, 477x549px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 477x549px

>>2907463
1-2 hours of drawing from a cast is more than Canadians receive in grade school, I would have been extremely happy with that, but teachers would have to deal with girls complaining all through the class. Nevertheless, a student can take those basic skills and apply them later in an Animation course, or career, particularly in Korea where such jobs are still available.

Having said that, I think I would educate British and French students differently from Germans, who have tended toward music since the Reformation. Music is much more open-ended and expressive than visual Art, which requires a natural sort of single-mindedness.

>>2907385
What sort of bad habits specifically?

>>2907950
"Expressive" here meaning expressive of individuality, I'd argue that traditional art has an inherently socialistic aspect.

>>2907403
Those schools are mostly good if you want to get into the industry. Someone who don't want anything to do with it will still come to learn things by going there, but he's also be wasting a lot of time to be trained for an aesthetic or workflow that is specialized for entertainment industry.

File: image.jpg (35KB, 400x344px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 400x344px

>>2907427
This is one of the faultlines associated with having an oversized staff of female teachers. Most women don't know the difference between Artists and people who simply like to craft, so instead of treating it as a discipline its regarded as a kind of indoor recess. Strangely, on days with quite terrible weather or on half-days we would be ushered into the art room, they would say something like, "Draw a building under harsh lighting" for example. Acquiring a set of historical busts and casts would seem to be excellent not just for the art room but for history and social studies classes as well.

File: 1489540044152.png (465KB, 933x975px) Image search: [Google]

465KB, 933x975px

Why you cares about other kids and their education?

>>2907975
Because they one day will be working under me for cheap

>>2907979
And how it's related to art education in middle school?

>>2907984
less time and money spent on retraining the bullshit instilled in them from said middleschool

>>2907429
It's fascinating that cultural institutions are now associated with cultural petrifacts, yet there must be a corporate reason for this and not a highly ideological one.

>>2907970

They just teach you fundamentals, aesthetics can be changed at any given time in the future. Man if I had the money I would be flying to Art center or FZD in a heartbeat. I am so tired of grinding alone in my room.

>>2907987
>retraining
You can't train art in middleschool. It's waste of time. Like shitty music class.
>forcing people who don't give a fuck about art to do useless things

>>2907995
you may not be fishing for every fish, but the best way to catch the one is by using a very large net. Then you can start them early

I wonder to what degree different demographics value the notion of visual literacy. To put things in perspective, 100 years ago, approximately 75% of Russians viewed basic literacy as something quite tertiary to their lives. Will we become more verbally and visually illiterate a century from now, or will our sensibilities be enhanced?

File: 1489968747884.png (627KB, 600x475px) Image search: [Google]

627KB, 600x475px

It's a fucking joke.

I remember back in high school my art teacher told the class that "using references in cheating"
This was like 10 years ago.

File: 1411445893035.png (160KB, 424x486px) Image search: [Google]

160KB, 424x486px

>>2908015
now I'm angry. Right now, I really want to be a high school art teacher, if not solely to give quality education

>>2907379
art isn't on the sat or act.

>>2907993
They don't only teach fundamentals, and fundamentals besides isn't entirely strict that the training of fundamental can't be specialized towards a certain aesthetic. No period in the history of art taught fundamentals the same way as any other. Space vehicles, RPG designs, etc are not part of fundamentals and yet are taught how to design in FZD. Neither is the use of digital entirely fundamental (all that time spent learning specs, tools, workflow that is specialized towards digital) unless you are planning on using digital for entertainment industry. Even the environment has the pervading culture that's specialized towards quite a narrow range of outcomes, which is why it may seem at times that the true way of teaching fundamentals has been found. Most grew up with video games and animation, want to do something related in varying degree, and they more or less know the same contemporary professional names.

Aesthetics can't just be changed easily unless you're going for a shallow one. If it is the case that it's easy to convert aesthetics, there wouldn't be so much artists spending years to aim towards a particular look, or artists correcting old habits. Or there wouldn't be so much painters today who for years grind out fundamentals aiming to have their works look like 19th century academic painters and still fail to capture resemblance.

>>2907415
and thats pretty much the point of this thread

>>2907995
teaching them jack shit isnt going to do anything for them either, but if you teach fundamentals at least the ones who care get something out of it.

>>2908027

You could learn perspective, construction, values, composition, figure drawing, anatomy...etc from FZD and go out of your way to study renaissance masters if you wanted to. Just because you are made to do insects, vehicles and spaceships in FZD digitally, it doesn't mean you can't convert that fundamental knowledge to anything you'd like.

>>2908300
Read my first post. I never said that you can't. I'm saying you would be wasting a lot of time (and money) learning things you don't need, and then more time still to get rid of habits that are only useful for entertainment industry, which by itself requires a lot of energy and judgement besides. They're heavily specialized for industry, down to the way you ought to market yourself.

>>2908023
No that anon, but you should prolly try doing it, anon. Make a difference to a lot people's lives too.

>>2907379
Because we're the few professionals that will still be employable in post-scarcity and the NWO doesn't want nobodies competing with their children.

>tfw going to italy this year for my first year of college at an art school

>it's only 14,500 a year

>best art schools in USA are 30,000+

>alumni of italian schools are atleast 10x better trained then the american ones for fine art and classical studies

USA education seems like a fucking meme. There's a reason in the 20th century most of the major artists from south america, asia, america went to France, Germany, Italy to study. I imagine outside of american ateliers it's still this way. Just because a school has an art program doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

>>2908439
Just because the economy is fucked doesn't necessarily mean education is a meme.

>>2908440

For art yes, it is.

Try finding schools similar to this in America. New york and California probably will have 1-2 slightly comparable.

http://www.florenceacademyofart.com/index.php/en/

Art traditions go back hundreds of years, there's no reason paying more to go to school in America and receive a worse education.

>>2908442
Florence Academy is barely nineteenth century, and not even that close. It doesn't go back hundreds of years. It's still good training considering the current art climate. Just don't get memed too much into the whole "Realist painter" phenomenon or you'll end up like the examples on the alumni. If you can't tell what's wrong, it may already be too late for you.

>>2908466

I don't like realist paintings that go into the 21st century m8, but it's one of the best schools for it. I worry about education and how much it'll influence me. One of the predominant styles of the 21st century for fine art is realist and it's quite abominable. I love gustave courbet and jean francois millet but you won't see much of that. They suck a lot of the style out of it.

>>2907415
Puerto Rico

>>2908479
One of the problems with them that seems to be most attached to them is that they are trained in drawing the kind of poses that models do. It's not unusual to see an alumni recreate a "classical" subject with a pose that you normally see used for life drawing practices. Perhaps it's also because they're unable to draw from imagination and hire a model to do a pose for use in a painting. And either the artist being so accustomed to the "atelier poses" will instruct the model to do just that and to stay still. Or the models are themselves very accustomed to the poses that they do in the atelier studios.

>>2908490
Is there a list for these "poses" used in life drawing?

File: 1465243839362.png (172KB, 403x303px) Image search: [Google]

172KB, 403x303px

>>2907379

Art in teaching is subjective now, and not objective.

I remember back in middle school (out of college now) that they did literal macaroni art, and barely ever touched on actual drawing, painting or any kind of actual classical art, and just went straight for the "arts and crafts meme".

HS, was a clusterfuck in art class, between the teacher going way too deep and way too fast into art history right off the bat and it just flying over 99% of the students heads and then switching to, and again, dodging actual classical art teachings, basic drawing, painting, etc., and defaulting to "arts and crafts meme" shit, like cutting out pieces of paper that looked like pumpkins to plaster over the walls, although fun and "creative" it never went really beyond that or pushed the boundaries, except for a few students who were either called weird or were not popular by a long shot.

That brings me to college, where I actually had some basic drawing classes finally from an educational institution that were actually quite decent, though when it came to teaching painting, it went back to being "expressive, and subjective" and nothing too beyond that. Along with 2-D and 3-D design, 2-D was just glossed over and just kind of seemed like a throw away class, and 3-D just boiled down to again "arts and crafts" with no real objective other than getting the assignment done, the teacher not having very high standards which I've seen 3-D sculptures that looked like it was made in an hour, looked like crap and was given an "A" because it was finished on time and they spoke of their process and designs (without proof of pre-planning) as though they were some genius art intellectuals.

I draw as a dedicated weekly timed hobby at the best of times, and most of what I learned was self-taught. Most educational institutions don't teach worth a shit, and most art teachers are rather bland and don't push the boundaries and just seem to sit there rather than teach.

>>2908492
It's just one of those things you know as you see them, and has more to do with the effect or aura of the poses than the poses themselves.

File: Yanks attempts at the English language..jpg (163KB, 400x931px) Image search: [Google]

163KB, 400x931px

>>2907921
>PUBLIC education

>>2907953
rushing, because the point of those classes was to present something which ''looked finished'' at the end of them (which were 1 hour long)

''human printer'' blank state of mind (instead of actually thinking about your subject and how things work and why they are the way they are), because fuck asking questions and debating, ''in are classes you should hear the mosquito in the attic''

and again the previous points were enforced because those which looked like used more colors and more brush sizes were more rewarded than works where you actually learned something, but limited yourself to just one tool

do that for 8 years and when you will think of ''art'' you will think it's the most hard and less rewarding job you can have

>>2908726
American english is the best english

>>2908726
Why is the "gangsta" with the gun in American public school white?

>>2911589
Because shooters are typically white

>>2907379

We just did jewish trash art

It legit put me off art for years

The death of skill in art is exactly why the arts are being cut and underfunded. Objectivity is dead, so there's no reason to learn skill, since a highly detailed illustration, and a literal pile of garbage are on the same level. In fact, the islatiartion is being sold by some sap for a few bucks on the internet, meanwhile the pile of trash is displayed in a museum. Art went too far up it's own ass and alienated the public, and education is public funded.

>>2914232
(You)

>>2911610
Like Sam Hyde, right?

>>2908494
i thought it was called a painting because you use paint to make it?

>>2907627

There are a lot of white folk, they just take photos of brown people to give the impression that there's a lot.

t. Former sub saharan africanus

The jews use art to control public opinion and they want to keep a monopoly on it.

>>2907379
traditional draftsmanship has been made obsolete by Autodesk software and the like becoming more advanced and being used for architecture/construction planning.
you won't find as many dedicated draftsman today that are willing to teach as you would have in the 80s and before.

>>2907379
>western
I don't know about yuropoors, but almost nothing is being taken seriously in most US schools. To be fair, in some parts of the US, football(football) is taken seriously. Math, science, writing, reading, history, etc. are all done poorly.

Can someone explain something to me? How good are your portfolios supposed to be when you apply to an art school? It seems like they require you to be pretty good, but isn't that the point of going to school, to become good?

>>2915991
>to become good
No.

Most universities are about as bad for art. Try an atelier.

>>2915991
>>2915998
art schools, at least any that are worth their salt, exist to provide resources and a learning environment to artists that are already driven/have a decent handle on their craft.

there's a difference.

>>2915991
>>2915998
>>2916633
there's a difference between teaching to refine skills and teaching to obtain skills, i mean.

File: suspect at scene of crime.jpg (22KB, 600x675px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 600x675px

>>2914337
Someone needs to stop that madman

>>2907379
Blondes are extremely distracting. Try sitting next to a brunette.

>>2907379
Grade school is pretty much college prep
Any classes that teach you to be good with your hands are dumbed down because parents wanted such classes to be easy As